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Helsing
07-03-2010, 00:49
las-fire is basically heat at around 500 degrees celsius (according to 3rd edition rulebook) so really it shouldn't effect SM power armor - much like it does nothing to tank armor.

now against an organic target (like a human) whose body is mostly water we can imagine that it would evaporate a good deal of flesh. but against ceramite (im guessing its a metal alloy seeing as how its not a real element) the heat should largely be dispersed (not like a laser which is light).

So how come in Traitor-General we have CSM dropping like flies to some run-of-the-mill Regiment from a planet no one's heard of with BS3?

Tenken
07-03-2010, 00:52
Concentrate enough heat on anything and it'll melt/combust. I'm sure it's just a case of enough las beams being concentrated on a single surface that it either causes it to heat up and melt (killing the wearer) or melt through the area and kill the wearer the regular way.

A single las gun is pry about as effective against power armor as a magnifying glass and the sun is against a tank hull. But it's effectiveness is probably increased against weaker areas, like joints and already damaged areas.

Kage2020
07-03-2010, 00:59
I strike that one up to the power of lame. Then again, I don't model lasguns as lasers anyway so... Erm... Ignore me.

I'm not entirely sure that if you gave GW a multiple choice test on science that they would score even the average...

Kage

Helsing
07-03-2010, 01:07
I strike that one up to the power of lame. Then again, I don't model lasguns as lasers anyway so... Erm... Ignore me.

I'm not entirely sure that if you gave GW a multiple choice test on science that they would score even the average...

Kage

plot armor is god afterall

Agnar the Howler
07-03-2010, 01:22
It is very ineffective if firing at the powered plates, however the soft joint areas around the back of the knees, at the elbows and other soft armour is susceptible to most weapons, so there's still a good chance of wounding a marine if you catch him in his soft areas with a few lasbolts.

Mannimarco
07-03-2010, 01:22
all depends on whos writing it: if the story needs a single marine to batter his way through hordes of guardsmen that thats whats going to happen, if those marines need to die to a gloryfied flashlight then so be it

and besides gaunts ghosts are hardcore, whatever they are using is what we need to be equipping the guard with

Hellebore
07-03-2010, 01:31
Well they describe lasguns as using megathules which isn't a real measurement.

However, heat based weapons are going to be both the easiest and hardest things for a marine to survive. They have heat resistant materials, but if you heat them up enough they will cook in their own armour. A space marine can only walk around covered in fire for so long before it heats the armour up to deadly levels and/or it melts the more delicate components (joints and piping).

The Bush fires that went through Victoria in Australia a few years ago produced enough heat to melt steel:

http://victorianbushfireappeal.com/the-aftermath/
http://victorianbushfireappeal.com/wp-content/gallery/the-aftermath/bushfire6.jpg
http://www.brainwaveconcepts.com.au/photogallery/photo00032522/victorian-bushfires4.jpg

That was over only a few minutes as the inferno went through the area.

Obviously a flamer isn't that big, but it stays on you for longer than the heat from a firestorm.

Hellebore

Helsing
07-03-2010, 03:34
Well they describe lasguns as using megathules which isn't a real measurement.

However, heat based weapons are going to be both the easiest and hardest things for a marine to survive. They have heat resistant materials, but if you heat them up enough they will cook in their own armour. A space marine can only walk around covered in fire for so long before it heats the armour up to deadly levels and/or it melts the more delicate components (joints and piping).

The Bush fires that went through Victoria in Australia a few years ago produced enough heat to melt steel:

http://victorianbushfireappeal.com/the-aftermath/
http://victorianbushfireappeal.com/wp-content/gallery/the-aftermath/bushfire6.jpg
http://www.brainwaveconcepts.com.au/photogallery/photo00032522/victorian-bushfires4.jpg

That was over only a few minutes as the inferno went through the area.

Obviously a flamer isn't that big, but it stays on you for longer than the heat from a firestorm.

Hellebore

except ceramite isnt steel - and isnt the entire point of the backpack supposed to vent excess heat? besides to catch on fire you need..well something that can catch on fire - which wouldnt be ceramite plate. flamethrowers fire a stream of a highly flamable gel-like substance which is ignited by the pilot light so that could definately stick - but then you have the IF scouts in Heroes of the SM shrugging off being turned into candle-sticks by the orks.

insan0
07-03-2010, 03:37
I strike that one up to the power of lame. Then again, I don't model lasguns as lasers anyway so... Erm... Ignore me.

I'm not entirely sure that if you gave GW a multiple choice test on science that they would score even the average...

Kage

So true! It even seems to be getting worse as time goes on.
--Take the special Vengeance rounds used by Sternguard, "unstable flux core technology" WTF?!?
--Pg. 101 of Codex Space Marines has some pretty decent "technical" drawings of various marine weapons. In previous editions there would be some tecky mumbo-jumbo about the wargear. Now we get incredibly lame "phrases" probably lifted of discarded toilet paper in the Black Library office washroom.

Sorry but the last one is a bit of a sore issue for me. The downfall of 40k pseudo-science seems to go hand-in-hand with the influx of BAD fluff quotes/sayings/rolled-my-head-on-the-keyboard-then-hit-spell-check.
Seriously! Pay a [weapons] tech expert to come in for a day or two and have him bounce around some ideas with the writers. While they are at it bring in a speech writer to go over all your fluffy sayings.

*sigh*
-end rant

Firaxin
07-03-2010, 06:03
Traitor General? The one on Gereon? I don't recall any of the five marines in that book dying to lasfire. Haven't read that book since it came out, so someone will have to verify, but if I remember correctly it was 2 powersword KOs, a tube charge, concentrated fire of those poisoned quarrels into the face of an unhelmeted marine (because it was immune to the first half dozen or, any one of which would have killed a normal man in less than a second), and one them had its heavy flamer explode in its face.

Repentant Son
07-03-2010, 06:14
I could have sworn that Flamers work by spewing a chemical that ignites in contact with air (oxygen). I think I read that in the Battle for Macragge thing...

Anyways, if you shoot a peice of power armour in one of it's weak spots, it penetrates. Also, while one lasgun won't make a space marine look around, several hundred can take down even a Daemon Prince. Enough could possibly even take down a titan (although that would take a crapton of lasguns).

MagosHereticus
07-03-2010, 06:27
I could have sworn that Flamers work by spewing a chemical that ignites in contact with air (oxygen). I think I read that in the Battle for Macragge thing...


and yet all the flamers gw produce have an ignition source

Tenken
07-03-2010, 06:36
I seriously doubt flamer tech would rely on having a combustible source in the atmosphere. It's just not efficient to have to rely on oxygen or some other suitable element being present when you can simply light something with a small pilot lite. The amount of space faring battles and worlds that lack oxygen alone would make it a bad idea.

NightrawenII
07-03-2010, 07:29
So how come in Traitor-General we have CSM dropping like flies to some run-of-the-mill Regiment from a planet no one's heard of with BS3?
Because of Dan Abett. Sorry, someone have to say it.
I don't read his HH books, but he is bad at writing about marines. BotS are one of his worst books and marines power in GG serie vary from the scene to scene. In Ghostmaker, the WorldEaters attack IG armoured regiment, they tear tank armour with their chainaxes and one of them survive fire from autocannon, only to be killed by lasgun-fire shortly after.

Kal Taron
07-03-2010, 10:21
This picture explaines it all:
http://fc16.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/298/7/6/A_Message_from_the_Inquisition_by_The_Imperial_Gua rd.jpg

RCgothic
07-03-2010, 13:35
In Traitor General there wasn't even one marine KO to lasfire.

Tactical Retreat!
07-03-2010, 13:56
In Traitor General there wasn't even one marine KO to lasfire.

However in First and Only an IW gets his head taken "clean off" by a lasgun set to full power. He is also wearing a helmet :rolleyes:
That's good old Dan Abnett for you.

Hal'jin
07-03-2010, 14:41
I seriously doubt flamer tech would rely on having a combustible source in the atmosphere. It's just not efficient to have to rely on oxygen or some other suitable element being present when you can simply light something with a small pilot lite. The amount of space faring battles and worlds that lack oxygen alone would make it a bad idea.


And how exactly do you make fire with no oxygen at all? :rolleyes:

massey
07-03-2010, 14:44
And how exactly do you make fire with no oxygen at all? :rolleyes:

Have the chemical you're using to burn contain its own source of oxygen.

NightrawenII
07-03-2010, 15:40
This picture explaines it all:
http://fc16.deviantart.com/fs12/i/2006/298/7/6/A_Message_from_the_Inquisition_by_The_Imperial_Gua rd.jpg
This. Is. Briliant.
Beer for yay. (http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/toyota3tc/beer.jpg)

RCgothic
07-03-2010, 15:50
And how exactly do you make fire with no oxygen at all? :rolleyes:

Without atmospheric oxygen. If the fuel contains an oxegenating agent, your flamer will work even in the vaccuum of a space hulk or similar.

spetswalshe
07-03-2010, 15:55
The way I always see it - imagine lasguns are conventional firearms. A lucky shot from a rifle could penetrate Power Armour, hence a lasgun could. Of course, a real Marine shouldn't ever be in a situation where his weak points are exposed to some chump with a flashlight - not to mention he should be wearing his goddamn helmet when he's fighting.

Also, an actual laser wouldn't cause damage by 'melting' stuff - the primary idea behind it is that it'd cause rapid evaporation and expansion of a target surface; so potentially it could well rock through Power Armour. Convential lasers have already been used to shoot down missiles, incoming mortar rounds, etc. I hear there's a company that produced a laser that could destroy a tank. Without knowing the actual energy output of a lasgun, we've no way to tell how powerful it would be.

I get the feeling most GW background writers just imagine a lasgun is a firearm of some kind, because they're lazy and like to use contemporary war fiction shorthand by having guns with recoil, 'clips', rifled barrels, the propensity to jam, and they don't want to have to deal with actual lasers and problems they bring to the table.

NeonDante
07-03-2010, 18:33
I seem to remember lasbolts exploding on contact. It's not just a wee little heat ray. So yes, a lasbolt hitting ceremite armor would probably gouge out little chunks, and if it hit a vulnerable area it could potentially do a lot of damage.

Scion of Ferrus
07-03-2010, 18:44
It should be but it isn't. That is the answer. Tables Str and stuff, game balance.

Or, the qoute'ish from "A Thousand Sons."

"You haven't hunted a Fenrisian Kraken then!"

Repentant Son
07-03-2010, 19:49
Whether or no it is viable isn't the problem; did GW say that's how they worked? I recall stating that I read it in the Battle for Macragge thingy that was included... but nobody has provided evidence from the fluff that says I am wrong.

Don't argue against me; give me solid facts/fluff.

Lord_Crull
07-03-2010, 20:02
but if I remember correctly it was 2 powersword KOs,

1 power sword KO. One Marines died to a hot shot round I believe


a tube charge,

Which this Marine appearantly missed the memo about using basic autosenses to detect someone climbing on a house above you to drop a tube charge.:eyebrows:


and one them had its heavy flamer explode in its face.

Actually one died because Rawne somehow stole it's bolter and shot him under the lip of his helmet. Right after the Marine was wounded by an arrow to the helmet grille.:eyebrows:

From what I understand the Chaos Marines sent after the Ghosts were Abbadon's nitwits.

In all I found that scene in Traitor General to be poorly written and executed. The rest of the book was ace thoguh.

Firaxin
07-03-2010, 21:10
I stand corrected. I should re-read that series now.


1 power sword KO. One Marines died to a hot shot round I believe
Ah. Well hot shot rounds are AP3 anyways. :p


Which this Marine appearantly missed the memo about using basic autosenses to detect someone climbing on a house above you to drop a tube charge.:eyebrows:
I would assume Mk5 autosenses aren't as good as modern ones. And too be fair, stealth is the Ghosts' forte... they do have cameleoline, after all.


Actually one died because Rawne somehow stole it's bolter and shot him under the lip of his helmet. Right after the Marine was wounded by an arrow to the helmet grille.:eyebrows:
This kill would be the least plausible. But at least it's not a lasbolt KO!

Lord_Crull
07-03-2010, 21:21
I would assume Mk5 autosenses aren't as good as modern ones.



Who said what MK the marine had?



And too be fair, stealth is the Ghosts' forte... they do have cameleoline, after all.


It was Ciird who did it, a Vergast.

carl
07-03-2010, 23:05
Despite abnets generally bad writting in some area's traiotor general does give a direct statment that in general a dozen SM can force an entire guard regiment into full retreat because the guard just generally lack the firepower to hurt them.

Tbis is backed up in general by other sources where things like picking a marine off with a ML or Lascannon really aren't resonable and where power armour can resist considrable amonts of medium anti-infantry fire, (heavy bolters and the like), and are nearly immune to things like autguns except via a shot through the eye grill or the like.

It's also worth noting that in epic the IG are given one heavy weapon oper 2 squads, instead of 1 per squad like everyone else. hat overal means the guard really don';t have the kind of heavy Weapon quntaties to take the marines down through mass fire saturation tricks. At least fluff wise;).

Power armour is the real reason marines are so crazlly good. Most stuf able to easilly peirce power armour will also just about outright kill a marine. On the other hand anything that dosen't outright peirce it will need immense quantities to do anything, which most armies just can't bring to bear, giving marines near free reign to do as they please.

Tactical Retreat!
07-03-2010, 23:29
Who said what MK the marine had?



It was Ciird who did it, a Vergast.

It's not about autosenses.

I guess Chaos marines never learn to look up at trees and houses before running into an enemy village and start blazing away. ESPECIALLY not when pursuing dangerous enemy commandoes. No, just look straight forward and only focus on one task at a time, in this case pointlessly killing unarmored civilians. :rolleyes:

Compare those Abnett failmarines versus the ones in Brothers of the Snake... ;)

Kage2020
07-03-2010, 23:37
Perhaps, once again, this is one of those times that turning to the RPG might be useful? Are Marines immune to lasguns in that? I'm talking about on average, rather than the (incredibly low, but still possible) chance that someone wielding a paring knife might accidentally cut a planet in two...

Kage

Helsing
08-03-2010, 02:58
It's not about autosenses.

I guess Chaos marines never learn to look up at trees and houses before running into an enemy village and start blazing away. ESPECIALLY not when pursuing dangerous enemy commandoes. No, just look straight forward and only focus on one task at a time, in this case pointlessly killing unarmored civilians. :rolleyes:

Compare those Abnett failmarines versus the ones in Brothers of the Snake... ;)

personally i thougt BotS was great -better than the ultraporn with Ventris anyway, or most of the HH books (i only really liked false gods and fulgrim). for once marines werent the super dead killy badasses :D

Tactical Retreat!
08-03-2010, 03:24
personally i thougt BotS was great -better than the ultraporn with Ventris anyway, or most of the HH books (i only really liked false gods and fulgrim). for once marines werent the super dead killy badasses :D

:eek::eek::eek::wtf::wtf:

Did we read the same book? The one where a squad of marines kills 2k Dark Eldar without any losses except a guy's hand?
The one where 50 marines, fighting in a phalanx with spears, kill 10 000 + Orks. Again without any losses?

Then again it's not sillier than some of the stuff Gaunt's Ghosts did. So alright.

duffybear1988
08-03-2010, 03:40
leave gaunts ghosts alone - they are fantastic, there isnt a bad book (although the latest one was not quite as good as the rest).

Gritty veteran guardsmen slogging it out in a ruined city is far more fun than space marines anyday...

SlightlyEstranged
08-03-2010, 05:25
I always just thought of that scene in the novel as Abnett writing himself into a corner.:shifty:

IIRC in Killing Ground Ventris describes las guns as the poor man's weapon. However get enough going and the enemy starts to have trouble ala that photo from earlier.:p

Helsing
08-03-2010, 07:15
:eek::eek::eek::wtf::wtf:

Did we read the same book? The one where a squad of marines kills 2k Dark Eldar without any losses except a guy's hand?
The one where 50 marines, fighting in a phalanx with spears, kill 10 000 + Orks. Again without any losses?

Then again it's not sillier than some of the stuff Gaunt's Ghosts did. So alright.

i was thinking of the beginning where, like, almost his entire squad gets blown up. but then again i haven't read it in 4ever - i just remember liking it.

Lord_Crull
08-03-2010, 17:14
personally i thougt BotS was great -better than the ultraporn with Ventris anyway, or most of the HH books (i only really liked false gods and fulgrim). for once marines werent the super dead killy badasses :D

What are you talking about?:wtf: The Iron Snakes were far more killy badasses than Ventris ever was. In the Ventris books the Ultramarines actually took casulties against the Dark Eldar. In Brothers of the snake not a single marine was klilled by the Dark Eldar and only a few against the orks.


i was thinking of the beginning where, like, almost his entire squad gets blown up. but then again i haven't read it in 4ever - i just remember liking it.

The begining had a single marine wipe out an entire squad of Dark Eldar with ease.


leave gaunts ghosts alone - they are fantastic, there isnt a bad book (although the latest one was not quite as good as the rest).

Gritty veteran guardsmen slogging it out in a ruined city is far more fun than space marines anyday...

Your opinion, I find Marines more enganging and easier to write for, I actually have to struggle to write my Guard fluff for my regiment, wheras for Marines it comes naturally.

It sounds like you are talking about a different book.

massey
08-03-2010, 19:07
I always figured lasguns were just sci fi movie lasers. Like from GI Joe, or Star Wars. They're "lasers" in the sense that they shoot a blue beam from a gun, and wherever they hit, a bunch of sparks fly out. Don't try to spend too much time justifying it, the writers sure didn't. :)

Askil the Undecided
08-03-2010, 19:13
Your opinion, I find Marines more enganging and easier to write for, I actually have to struggle to write my Guard fluff for my regiment, wheras for Marines it comes naturally.

Do you find it easier to get into the heads of:

A) Genetically and psychlogically altered warriors who where kidnapped from their families as children, subjected to hypnotic indoctrination and about a decade of regular invasive surgical procedures while being taught to fight or die by hulking inhuman warrior gods who accepted hideous attrition rates? (fictional mutants with fictional equipment.)

B) Everyday people who were given a bit of athletics and marksmanship training, a uniform, bulletproof vest and a gun and started getting shipped out to get shot at? (real everyday people in a profoundly unpleasant experience (getting shot at with fictional guns) trying to get through it.)

A? Damn! What kind of crazy childhood did you have?

x-esiv-4c
08-03-2010, 19:21
I think what Crull is getting at is that SM are easy to write about because they are so 2 dimensional and flat that it requires little to no effort at all. You don't actually have to think about what you are writing about, instead layer on the plot armour and you're done.

Askil the Undecided
08-03-2010, 19:24
Yeah or for Imperial Guard you ask yourself "If I was an awesome, brave and clever military commander with thousands of disposable troops and tanks how would I (fairly plausibly) kill [insert mooks] and save [insert planet]?"

Kage2020
08-03-2010, 19:37
I always figured lasguns were just sci fi movie lasers. Like from GI Joe, or Star Wars. They're "lasers" in the sense that they shoot a blue beam from a gun, and wherever they hit, a bunch of sparks fly out. Don't try to spend too much time justifying it, the writers sure didn't.
Which is actually one of the reasons that when it came down to the RPG I didn't bother with using "laser" as an explanatory mechanism. (I go for the "blaster" equivalent, akin to the "lasers" in Star Wars and, say, Sixth Day).

I'm guessing the nerd-rage went for ignoring the RPG Dark Heresy? In that system, a lasgun does 1d10+3 E damage. So that's an average of 8-9 damage, but a maximum of 13. So in that regard, power armour is not immune to lasgun shots: 1 point of damage gets through. On average, though, not so much.

(Again, this doesn't take into account that in those self-same rules it is also possible, if incredibly unlikely, for the same shot to act like the Death Star from Star Wars and destroy an entire planet.)

On the other hand, actually damaging the Marine inside the armour is another matter altogether. The systems method of abstracting damage to the individual is such that the Marine has a "armour value" (toughness) of 8. This means that just by dint of them being a Marine they have natural "armour" equivalent to civilian power armour (AV 8), meaning that 1 point of damage that gets by on maximum damage doesn't actually do anything.

Of course, that 1 point of damage is going to be hard pushed to effect a normal human if they were in Marine power armour (average toughness of 3).

In civilian power armour, the Marine would shrug off the damage, while a human would take 1 point of damage, so 7-12 solid hits and they're in trouble.

Amusingly, all of this explains why Dark Heresy Marines might be a useful point of reference for the Black Library authors. Quite simply, there's nothing but for a handful of weapons that can damage the blighters.

Again, though, remember the caveat that a "lucky shot" in Dark Heresy might score enough damage to humble a Marine. A real lucky shot, but lucky nonetheless. Note, however, that mechanically a paring knife would be able to do the same. (Perfect examples of where system and reality got a bit wonky, and the reason that you have sensible GMs, even if not all GMs are sensible. :D)

Make of that what you will. And forgive any mistakes that I might have made with Dark Heresy. I'm not a fan of the system so I tend not to use it. :D

Kage

Idaan
08-03-2010, 20:43
But Dark Heresy's armour penetration system is bugged as hell. You need a multi-melta or a lascannon to reliably wound the Space Marine. Plasma guns, which are specifically designed to be anti-power armour, have hard time wounding it too.
Hell, even an ordinary human with 8th-rank armour and Toughness stat is unkillable by lasguns.

Apparently, quite a few modifiers to penetration were cut before release, including rules for massed fire. The adventure that the Marine appears in was written before that.

Thus, he wouldn't wound even if he shot himself with his own boltpistol.

Aside from that, I think that Agamorr represents attributes, skills and talents of a Deathwatch Veteran Sergeant quite well.

borithan
08-03-2010, 21:11
It's also worth noting that in epic the IG are given one heavy weapon oper 2 squads, instead of 1 per squad like everyone else.Ah, thats not true. Its one heavy weapon per "unit" (infantry stand) which is half a squad. Well, yes they have less than everyone else, but they still have one per squad. The reasoning behind giving one to every tactical stand is because they are meant to have split into 5 man squads and been given 1 heavy weapon for each squad.


Are Marines immune to lasguns in that?Well, if you mean Dark Heresy, so far yes. The one Space Marine that has appeared so far 1) had armour of something like 12 (while "normal" power armour is 8) and has a toughness bonus (also deducted from damage) of 8 (or is it 10?). Lasguns do 1d10+3 damage, with no AP, meaning he has damage reduction of 20 (or 22) against a maximum damage of 13. Personally I think that Space Marine is too powerful (and game wise he is a crutch for the PCs in very hard fights). I would prefer Armour 9 (best quality power armour) and Toughness bonus 6, meaning 15 damage reduction. Still immune to lasgun fire, in those rules.

Oh... ok, I guess there is a very small chance lasfire will get through the armour, but whoever is wearing it they will not take any damage (seeing as any living character will have a mininum TB of 1).

Anyway, seems people have covered that.

Warp-Juicer
08-03-2010, 21:24
Who said what MK the marine had?

You forget, Chaos marines trade all of their modern armor and equipment in for heresy-era gear When they go traitor.

Kage2020
08-03-2010, 22:06
But Dark Heresy's armour penetration system is bugged as hell. You need a multi-melta or a lascannon to reliably wound the Space Marine.
Yeah, but it's canon that supports the Black Library stance! Everyone always dies because no other person has a weapon that can penetrate powered armour. :eyebrows: :shifty:

With that said? Yeah, armour penetration, weapon damage, toughness etc. is all fairly "bugged" as you put it. With regards to resistance to weapon damage ala Toughness, it's made even worse with Unnatural Toughness but... Well, I'm sure that's a thread for another forum and, of course, YMMV.


Thus, he wouldn't wound even if he shot himself with his own boltpistol.
Well, without the Righteous Blow mechanic. ;)

Anyway, it's the only real statistical information that we have at the moment, despite the wonkiness. Well, other than Inquisitor but that had a similar problem with weapon damage etc. with the "Imperial Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom..." So something that might have to be taken with a pinch of salt. :D

Kage

carl
08-03-2010, 22:27
Well, other than Inquisitor but that had a similar problem with weapon damage etc. with the "Imperial Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom..." So something that might have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Yeah but apply a 3X multiplier to the armour and damage values given and it works out nearly perfectly, right down to bolt weapons pretty much one shotting unarmoured basic humans, and severly injuring elite lightly armoured humans.

][ is specificlly noted to have downscaled damage and armour values just to allow ][ to last more than a turn against each other and the various minionsm, (the rules just don't allow for a proper accounting of their heroic naure TBH).

Hellebore
08-03-2010, 22:33
The only way I've found to make weapons realistically lethal is to balance it with making it very hard to actually hit the target. Some people prefer the idea of hitting the target lots to eventually kill it over only managing to hit it once in an hour of gameplay to kill it.

Hellebore

carl
08-03-2010, 22:53
My point was to point out how the ][ rules produce some silly reslts, (lke SM plasma fist) specificllly because the S modifiers are calibrated with no toning down, but armour and weaponry is.

An exalant example of this is Guants suprise attack on a CSM in Traitor General.

It amounted to a free backstab attack with a frost blade weilded 2-handed in ][ Game terms.

With basic Damage weapon rules Guant would do about 50pt's of damage including critical bonus. thats 40pt's aftyer deduction. Guant is thus still over 100pt's of damage, (and roughly 6 connecting attacks) away from killing said marine.

treble up the armour and weapon damae however and guant now averages 140Pt's vs. 30 armour which leads to 110Pt's getting past taking the marine out of action and leaving him on the verge of death even if the cumulative location injuries don't kill him. Plus Guant should still have an action or two left over, so that marine is going to be dead before guants finished carving regardless. Admittedly it still isn't quite a perfect replica of the actual events, but it's a much closer reprosantation of what actually happened.


As such the idea of adding that 3X multipliuer isn't to produce a balanced system, but merely to modify ][ values to levels useful for this kind of discushion. An actual game played with tose rules would horrifficlly favour high I characters. Which in reality IS what matter in such fights in real life. Skill and Strength are allways secondary to raw outright speed.

spetswalshe
08-03-2010, 22:57
To be fair, much as I like Dark Heresy, as with almost any RPG there is a very good chance that a person can get shot in the stomach without feeling any ill effects.

narrativium
08-03-2010, 23:28
So how come in Traitor-General we have CSM dropping like flies to some run-of-the-mill Regiment from a planet no one's heard of with BS3? No run-of-the-mill regiments in Traitor General.

The best twelve soldiers from an elite regiment (which is why they were picked) from two worlds, with five or fifteen worlds' worth of campaigns in experience.

Who said they had BS3?

UselessThing
09-03-2010, 00:08
The only way I've found to make weapons realistically lethal is to balance it with making it very hard to actually hit the target.

The problem with that is that you go from fine to dead in one dice roll.

With a system where you can get shot ten times but hit all the time you can see you have been shot seven times and think it is time to think about bugging out.

With a system where every hit kills you but you only get hit one times in ten then every time you get shot at there is a 1 in ten chance of getting killed.

This is instant death to any kind of heroic action. A type 1 character played well will never die. A type 2 character will be dead after a few short turns under fire.

--

I've always thought you need heavy weapons to kill Marines. But hey, this is 40k - it isn't like there is a shortage.

Hellebore
09-03-2010, 00:33
The problem with that is that you go from fine to dead in one dice roll.

With a system where you can get shot ten times but hit all the time you can see you have been shot seven times and think it is time to think about bugging out.

With a system where every hit kills you but you only get hit one times in ten then every time you get shot at there is a 1 in ten chance of getting killed.

This is instant death to any kind of heroic action.

Hence the second sentence you didn't quote.

Hellebore

UselessThing
09-03-2010, 00:39
Hence the second sentence you didn't quote.

I'm just pointing out that high damage/low hit rate isn't equivalent to low damage/high hit rate even if they both result in the same average DPS.






And why low damage/high hit rate is superior. :D