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JayC707
07-03-2010, 08:04
Hey Guys,

Been trying to figure out how I want to run a 2250 list now that I've had some time to read up, play some smaller and medium range games and get a feel for things. Take a look and let me know where you see the flaws and how you might improve upon it...


Teclis - 480 ( w/ ???? )

23x High Elf Spearman - 243
Musician - 5
Standard Bearer - 10

10x High Elf Archers - 110

5x Dragon Princes of Caledor - 150
Musician - 10

20x White Lions of Chrace - 300
Musician - 6
Standard Bearer - 12
Lion Standard - 25

1x Noble - 80 (w/ Lions)
Battle Standard - 25
Great Weapon - 8
Armour of Caledor - 25
Guardian Phoenix - 25

1x Korhil - 140 ( w/ Spears )

14x Sword Masters of Hoeth - 210
1x Standard Bearer - 12
1x Banner of Sorcery - 50

2x Great Eagle - 100

2x Repeat Bolt Throwers - 200

1x Dispel Scroll - 20

2246 Total Points

Desert Rain
07-03-2010, 09:09
I'm concerned about the amount of banners I'm running - are any of them not as useful as I might think within the units I've placed them, or at all? These points could open up a doorway for plenty more units...First of, you're spearmen can't have the banner of sorcery since they can only carry a standard up to 25 points. If you want the banner of sorcery put it on the swordmasters instead and loose the banner of arcane protection. That saves you 25 points.


I'm concerned some of my upgrades of musicians and standard bearers may be unnecessary and yet another opportunity to get a few points back, hmm?I would probably drop the musician from the swordmasters if I don't have any better use for the points. The spears and lions needs their musicians so keep them on those two. Now you've saved 32 points.


I'm concerned I don't need the dispel scrolls, or at least not both, considering I have the Banner of Sorcery, Teclis and 2 other Mages AND Teclis's Scroll of Hoeth, what are your thoughts?
Since you have Teclis scroll as well as his extra dispel dice I think that you can safely drop one scroll. But on the other hand you have a pure infantry army so it will take some time before you get stuck in. I would advise you to keep the scroll if your opponents bring heavy magic, if they don't drop it.


I'm concerned I don't have enough units on the board - in particular, I have no archers so my shooting is extremely limited with only the Bolt Throwers (perhaps I should move to 3, or even 4 and drop Eagles?). Would I do well to drop a LvL 2 mage for a unit of 12 archers?You have to many characters in your list and I would advise you to drop the noble since he isn't doing anything. That saves you 105 points which makes your total save 137 points. Or 157 if you loose a scroll.


I am also choosing to run no Chariots and no Calvalry in this list. Some find this to be a scary thing to do... is it a poor choice on my behalf?It will make your life a bit more difficult with a pure infantry list. I would advise you to bring one or two tiranoc chariot for the extra damage they can deal. But if you want to run a pure infantry list you can do fine, it's just a little bit more difficult.


Finally, would I be placing each of the Mages AND Teclis within a unit of my army to protect them? How do you suggest to play it, if at all? What about the Noble? Who would you run Korhil with, if it were you? Or would you not run him at all in this particular list?
Teclis should be in a unit that is unlikely to face close combat, such as the archer unit you will have to buy to make your army legal. Korhil should go with the spears to make them stubborn. The other mages should hide in a convenient unit depending on what the battlefield looks like.

With the saved points (137) you must buy another core unit since you only have one. I would recommend 10 archers for 110 points.
I would also recommend you to drop 5 spearmen and 6 white lions and, unfortunately, the silver wand. That gives you a couple of tiranoc chariots which gives you some much needed punch. If you don't want them you can use those points to buy 11 swordmasters/white lions as bodyguards for one of your mages.

cyberspite
07-03-2010, 09:44
Hey there, I'm pretty new to high elves too (wood elves being my usual army) so feel free to ignore me if you want ;)

Firstly a minor detail, I don't think you can have both scrolls unless you lose either the wand or seer staff (max 50pts per mage).

Also, with no cavalry, chariots and not much shooting you are giving your opponent the chance to sit back and shoot you up, obviously it depends who you are up against but if it's a heavy shooting / gunline you may struggle. You do have a pretty strong magic phase though, so that together with the 2 bolt throwers could apply some pressure from a distance but if your opponent goes magic heavy it won't be something you can really rely on.

That said, if you like the idea of lots of ranked infantry go with it, you should be strong in the combat phase, just watch your flanks.

Gaargod
07-03-2010, 13:43
Kinda disagree with Desert Rain on a couple of points there.

The point about the Teclis list is that you don't need other magic. Teclis + scroll caddy + banner of sorcery somewhere = done. Generally what happens is Teclis spams 3/4 dice spells in hope of getting IF. This then leaves the majority of magic defense versus your 2 lv2s - so they do nothing.

Stick the scroll caddy.... somewhere, archers probably.

But do NOT put Teclis in a unit of arhcers. He sticks in a big unit of White Lions with Caradyn - between ASF S6, stubborn and caradyn/champ taking duels, he's actually a whole lot safer than in archers.

I would also drop the spears, replacing with 2x10 archers. Will do slightly more for you.

Try splitting the swordmasters into 2x7, with no command, as flanking units for the BIG white lion unit.

Then take, with the spare points, some dragon princes (probably with banner of sorc). White lion chariots also work as an alternative - either way, you want a few units capable of charging decent distance and killing stuff.
Either way, you could keep the noble if you choose - but give him some better gear! S4 A3 isn't scaring anyone, but with a Star Lance, he's suddenly a lot of potential pain. KB sword is another possibility.

Rare choices are nice.

JayC707
07-03-2010, 19:35
Hey Guys,

Thank you for the detailed comments. I reviewed everything and made revisions with your help - some of which made good sense, some I'm not too sure of.

Please see the above (I edited my list and recalculated it accordingly) and let me know what you think?

My concerns that exist now are as follows...

- Do I need a standard bearer with the Dragon Princes if I'm running no banner with them? Does he add anything in terms of combat resolution? I wasn't sure... is the Musician worth it, either?

- I decided to run Dragon Princes over Lion Chariots? Is either choices truly better for my list or is it all a matter of subjective opinion and roll of the dice?

- My unit of archers is 3 x 5 (obviously to be placed on high ground) is this a poor choice? Should I remove 5 and place the remaining points in the 2nd Great Eagle or elsewhere for that matter?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your help.

Desert Rain
07-03-2010, 19:55
Looks better, and it's legal!

The Dragon Princes shouldn't have a standard bearer unless they have a magical standard.

Archers should be in units of 10, so I would recommend you to drop 5 and get an eagle instead.

A swordmaster standard bearer is 12 points, not 6.

Since you are using Teclis that other mage isn't doing much since the enemy will have all their scrolls and dice left when he gets to cast. I would drop him for a battle standard bearer instead since they are always good to have.

If you do so you can buy the following BSB:
Noble: Battle Standard, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix. Stick him with the white lions and he'll give them some extra punch. You also have the points left for another spearman.

JayC707
07-03-2010, 20:14
Looks better, and it's legal!

The Dragon Princes shouldn't have a standard bearer unless they have a magical standard.

Archers should be in units of 10, so I would recommend you to drop 5 and get an eagle instead.

A swordmaster standard bearer is 12 points, not 6.

Since you are using Teclis that other mage isn't doing much since the enemy will have all their scrolls and dice left when he gets to cast. I would drop him for a battle standard bearer instead since they are always good to have.

If you do so you can buy the following BSB:
Noble: Battle Standard, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix. Stick him with the white lions and he'll give them some extra punch. You also have the points left for another spearman.

Hi There,

Thanks again for your continued support.

I took this into consideration and edited my above list accordingly.

I suppose I am still a bit confused as to why additional mages with Teclis are not worth the cost, can you explain further? It just seems like more opportunity to cast spells, but most of you don't seem to think so? Why?

I really have a problem with WHERE to put Teclis... I don't like the idea of him with Archers as flying units will come over and rape them. But I have no other valid options. If I leave him with that big group of spearman they will never see much battle, will they? The swordmasters and Lions will be in battle for sure as will the Dragon princes so that doesn't seem viable.

Help???

Jason

Desert Rain
07-03-2010, 20:20
I suppose I am still a bit confused as to why additional mages with Teclis are not worth the cost, can you explain further? It just seems like more opportunity to cast spells, but most of you don't seem to think so? Why?
The reason you take Teclis for is to cast your spells with irresistible force because of his special rules. You pick a lore with lot's of good spells in and them pick two of them every turn and cast each of them using 5 dice hoping for a double which is irresistible force due to Teclis' special rules. Since the enemy can't dispel a spell cast with irresistible force he will have his full dispelling capacity left when the other mage casts his spells and thus your opponent can easily dispel everything he casts, which makes him useless.

If you don't use Teclis (or an Archmage with Book of Hoeth) the level 2 mage is worth his weigh in gold though.

BTW, I would put Korhil with the spears instead since they will need his combat power (swordmasters are killy enough on their own) and you need him to challenge enemy characters to protect Teclis.

JayC707
07-03-2010, 20:24
The reason you take Teclis for is to cast your spells with irresistible force because of his special rules. You pick a lore with lot's of good spells in and them pick two of them every turn and cast each of them using 5 dice hoping for a double which is irresistible force due to Teclis' special rules. Since the enemy can't dispel a spell cast with irresistible force he will have his full dispelling capacity left when the other mage casts his spells and thus your opponent can easily dispel everything he casts, which makes him useless.

If you don't use Teclis (or an Archmage with Book of Hoeth) the level 2 mage is worth his weigh in gold though.

BTW, I would put Korhil with the spears instead since they will need his combat power (swordmasters are killy enough on their own) and you need him to challenge enemy characters to protect Teclis.

Noted, this makes sense to me now.

Where should I place Teclis, then?

riotknight
07-03-2010, 23:52
I've seen people put him in a Beefy unit of Phoenix Guard, or one guy I know puts him in a unit of 35 Spearmen.

JayC707
08-03-2010, 02:23
Hey Guys,

Okay, I just played a 2250 game with the above list against a magic heavy vampire counts, there army looked like this (excuse the paraphrasing):

3 Full Units of Ghouls (18 each?)
3 Vampires (1 in each unit of Ghouls)
1 Unit of Blood Knights (5)
1 Unit of Black Knights (5)
1 Unit of ethereal skirmishers (5)
1 Lord, he was the equivalent of Teclis for the Vamps - dunno his name.
1 Unit of the equivelent of Sword masters for Vamps - dunno their name (10)
1 Banner that gives regeneration (WTF??? BLOOD KNIGHTS HAVE ARMOR SAVES, WARD SAVES AND REGENERATION SAVES! REALLY *********** FUN TO DEAL WITH!!!!!! :( :( :( )

Here are all the problems, issues and realizations I stumbled upon...

First, I did not know that Teclis could not cast while in close combat... this was a huge issue come turn 3 when he was put into combat as I opted to put him with a group of Lions and advanced with them to cast cleansing fire (which was great the first 2 turns...). Once he got held up, he was just useless and there was no casting with him the rest of the game...ugh...frustrating.

My eagles had very few targets, although they did block the black knights for 2 turns and attempted to flank the blood knights but unfortunately failed due to situations.

My archers were useless, everything was at least toughness 4... frustrating to say the least.

Bolt Throwers were of course, useful.

Swordmasters did fine and the Dragon Princes were fine for flanking to support them but Raise Dead and Challenges from Vampires against my heroes is very frustrating...he's just so much more god damn powerful than I am in many, many ways.

I had a dispel scroll on my list and no one who I could equip it with....wasted 20 points.

My big unit of spearman is TOO big - it should be split up into 2 units, 2x7's or 3x5's. At least I think after seeing this game through.

I definitely got to see Teclis and understand why more mages are really not important unless you want more dispel dice/scrolls. He casts everything with irresistible force and even if he miscasts he doesn't suffer any consequence. He's amazing in that regard.

riotknight
08-03-2010, 02:54
Can't cleansing flare be cast while your in combat? It's not a magic missile...

JayC707
08-03-2010, 03:18
Can't cleansing flare be cast while your in combat? It's not a magic missile...

My opponent said I could only cast if teclis specified I could or the spell did. Neither do.

Ayliffe
08-03-2010, 06:04
My opponent said I could only cast if teclis specified I could or the spell did. Neither do.

your opponent was wrong. the only spells that cant be cast in combat are magic missiles.

JayC707
08-03-2010, 06:09
your opponent was wrong. the only spells that cant be cast in combat are magic missiles.

That bastard!

Razakel
08-03-2010, 06:48
Indeed, the place where it specifies this in the Rulebook is page 110, if your curious, second heading titled "Magic Missiles", last paragraph. Many WAAC (win at all costs) players will twist and distort the rules to suit themselves, and then bully you for trying to stand your ground. Don't put up with it, the easiest way to beat these people is to know exactly where in the Rulebook the rule is.

High Elves aren't my specialty, so I'll just say good luck, and stick it out with Teclis, he's a beast.

JayC707
08-03-2010, 16:11
Very frustrating because it would seem he cheated me...

Ctnoland
08-03-2010, 18:44
Yes...very important to know ALL rules as I have found out in a few battles. I play all friendly games though so if we run into a mistake it was just by accident not on purpose...most of the time lol.

JayC707
08-03-2010, 19:20
Yes...very important to know ALL rules as I have found out in a few battles. I play all friendly games though so if we run into a mistake it was just by accident not on purpose...most of the time lol.

Of course I agree but that's like the 5 year old child being able to tell the babysitter that they aren't allowed to watch R-Rated movies, it just doesn't happen! lol. You expect the person in the position of power to play fair and teach correctly.

Oh well, I will be more careful the next time.

I think he was just scared because there were 4 units within 12" of Teclis and he was going to **** things up :P

AtmaTheWanderer
08-03-2010, 20:45
20x White Lions of Chrace - 300
Musician - 6
Standard Bearer - 12
Lion Standard - 25

Too big IMHO. Better used as two units of 10. High elves are a MSU (multiple-small-units) army. With High Elf WS and Str 6 great weapons, you should NOT need rank bonuses to win combat.

riotknight
08-03-2010, 21:51
Yeah I was pretty sure that my Slann and Arch Mage continually cast Cleansing flare (especially gross when you take into account my 2 Engines in my tourament list, Poor Kairos... lol) while in combat. Magic Missiles can't be cast, and only spells that specify a target have to say "may be cast into combat". Cleaning flare just says all enemy units in 12" or whatever, therefore, you can cast it while in combat.

enyoss
08-03-2010, 22:04
It looks like the casting issue lay with a confusion between casting when in combat, and casting into combat. For the former (casting when in combat), the only restriction is that you may not cast magic missiles. For the latter (casting into combat), the spell must explicitly say that you can do so. It seems likely to me that your opponent just got these mixed up. :)



Too big IMHO. Better used as two units of 10. High elves are a MSU (multiple-small-units) army. With High Elf WS and Str 6 great weapons, you should NOT need rank bonuses to win combat.

Not sure I agree entirely with High Elves being an MSU army, as there are lots of units which can actually work really well when taken in large blocks (spearmen, phoenix guard, seaguard, even dare I say, white lions :D). Still, for just about any regular instance I think you're bang on with that white lion unit being too big, and bang on with the reason for it too!

JayC707
08-03-2010, 23:32
It looks like the casting issue lay with a confusion between casting when in combat, and casting into combat. For the former (casting when in combat), the only restriction is that you may not cast magic missiles. For the latter (casting into combat), the spell must explicitly say that you can do so. It seems likely to me that your opponent just got these mixed up. :)



Not sure I agree entirely with High Elves being an MSU army, as there are lots of units which can actually work really well when taken in large blocks (spearmen, phoenix guard, seaguard, even dare I say, white lions :D). Still, for just about any regular instance I think you're bang on with that white lion unit being too big, and bang on with the reason for it too!

Benefit of the doubt, kinda guy. :P

Seraph74
10-03-2010, 04:30
Also, any spell requiring Line of Sight cannot be cast as the mage (assuming he's in base to base with the enemy) will not have LOS to anything but the unit he's in contact with.

I generally like my spears in a 6x3 block to maximize attacks to cost.

Jack of Blades
10-03-2010, 12:20
That bastard!

Also remember that if your mage can see out of the close combat, you can cast at what else he sees, out of that close combat.