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MasterGideon
07-03-2010, 11:12
Seeming that Blood Angels are out in less than a month, Would it be a nice suprises if the Dark Angels got a white dwarf dex like the Blood Angels got 3 years ago whent he Dark Angels Codex came out?

I for one would be happy with a White Dwarf Dex, would everyone else prefere this short stop measure?

MasterGideon

Ph4lanx
07-03-2010, 11:15
It's a decent enough idea. Let's see if GW see it that way too! Personally I would love an update, as I've always wanted a Ravenwing/Deathwing army.

MasterGideon
07-03-2010, 11:17
Aye, It was a nice suprised for my mate 3 years ago when Dark Angel Codex comes out, Lets hope us "unforgiven" have a little suprised install too in forthcoming white dwarfs!

MasterGideon

bigcheese76
07-03-2010, 11:19
We can hope but we must still remember GW are a company trying to make as much money as they possibly can for their sharholders and so will only do it if they beleive it will greatly boost sales. Otherwise we will just have to wait for a whole new codex.

Norsehawk
07-03-2010, 12:36
The idea has some merit. With the eclipsing of power by all other space marine dexes that have come out after wards, the Dark Angels could use a small update to bring them up to speed. It would also help to drive sales for the Dark Angel specific kits that are often languishing in stores. Give them a minor chapter tactics, give them the new storm shields, normalize point costs to other codexes, and maybe toss them a few chapter specific bones from FW/Apoc areas, Land Raider Ares and Mortis Dreadnaught maybe.

ColonalKlink
07-03-2010, 13:13
the new dex better have the Mortis Dread in it.. dribble

MasterGideon
07-03-2010, 13:43
Indeed, maybe the lack of plastic autocannons in the dreads kts so far is a hint of things yet to come for the Dark Angels maybe?

Please GW Sort this issue out asap! Dark Angels shouldnt be this bad! :(

MasterGideon

taffeh
07-03-2010, 14:31
as much as i'd love to see the boys from the rock get some love - i doubt we'll see anything for a long while yet... In the mean time I've shelved my nr 10k points of DA and moved onto smaller bite-size projects by comparison... ala I'm spending money in GW, and which will what keep the shareholders happy..

Just wait until the DE / Necron and Templar players get their opinions in on this though...

DeadlySquirrel
07-03-2010, 16:25
is the OP hinting here? I hope so =]

lol.

Its threads like this where people get the wrong idea =p

JagdWehrwolf
07-03-2010, 16:50
In whatever way Dark Angels will arrive, I`m seriously worried about them after seeing what GW did with Space Wolves (lookin` at You, Canis) and, according to rumours Blood Angels (Sanguinor). After the release of Wolves someone from Warseer jokingly predicted Dark Darkson riding a Dark Angel... Be afraid, be very afraid...

Chem-Dog
07-03-2010, 17:05
Dark Darkson riding a Dark Angel... Be afraid, be very afraid...

Of course they could be a little more fluffy and have him riding a Calibanite Lion (fluffy if we ignore the fact that the Calibanite Lion was made extinct).
I Reckon the guy should be called Lionel....

LonelyPath
07-03-2010, 21:20
I'd love to see a mini-dex come out to put the DA back in synch with the other chapters out there, I don't care if nothing flash or fancy was added, just so long as it bring us back up to par. After that I could happily wait for a new, full dex.

MasterGideon
07-03-2010, 21:27
As long as they aint riding fluffy emo bunnies i dont care what they get! :D

MasterGideon

For mankind
07-03-2010, 21:39
"As long as they aint riding fluffy emo bunnies i dont care what they get!

MasterGideon "


What? Why not I LOVE this idea, Space Marines riding on giant fluffy bunnies...

Okay wheres my Space Wolf Dex and the Green Stuff, these "Thunderwolfs" will lock terrific!!!

Fluffy Killer Bunnies from outer Space such a great and simpel idea, dammit why didn't I come up with that by myself...
MasterGiedon I owe you one for that idea....................

MasterGideon
07-03-2010, 21:48
Oh dear, gonna be a wild next game you have with giant bunnies! haha!


MasterGideon

Iverald
07-03-2010, 22:29
Well, I actually WANT to have a model of Our Glorious Primarch flanked by 2 Calibanite Lions with appropriate cyber enhancements...

Back on topic. Didn't the BA WD dex put many people off?

Anyway, I'm ok with just streamlining and point adjusting, but if so, there will be no plastic goodness before the codex proper. And I'm a modeller/painter, not a gamer.

Sarevok
07-03-2010, 22:34
Unfortunatley, Dark Angels are Jervis favourite and he gets to do them. And Jervis is a pretty conservative designer.

By the time DA get another revision, the power level of 40k codices will have been reset and you'll get another weak one.

rhelsius
07-03-2010, 23:03
I can´t see this happening. We DA players are doomed to wait...

Iverald
07-03-2010, 23:05
Unfortunatley, Dark Angels are Jervis favourite and he gets to do them. And Jervis is a pretty conservative designer.

By the time DA get another revision, the power level of 40k codices will have been reset and you'll get another weak one.

My goodness, why so negative? I'm 100% positive that Jervis will conform to the current design philosophy and will flood us with over-the-top, over-blinged stuff like the Blood Angels and Space Wolves got. <-- Notice the double-edged sarcasm. I'm one of the few people 'round here who doesn't mind Thunderwolf Cavalry (except Canis' poor excuse for a wolf).

Plastic Rat
08-03-2010, 00:37
Unfortunatley, Dark Angels are Jervis favourite and he gets to do them. And Jervis is a pretty conservative designer.


Oh god, out of all the designers why did my chapter have to be Jervis' favourite? After the last one I have no respect for him as a designer whatsoever. He doesn't even get the concept of play testing. I remember him saying they used to use a larger group of play testers, but he found answering all the e-mails from different time-zones too confusing. I mean seriously?

Every time I play my Dark Angels I get annoyed at the whole thing all over again. If he does our next codex I'm done.

shabbadoo
08-03-2010, 01:07
I would prefer a full codex, but a white dwarf codex would be a good if it was simple wargear update. I don't see a whole bunch of unit alterations or new unit types added, as there would be no model releases to go along with it.

While not a bad idea, a WD codex would mean that DA are slated for either no update this edition, or are due to be updated last, or second to last, therefore running into probable issues with the next edition. I would prefer to have a 5e codex or a 6E codex, but definitely NOT a half-arsed "5e codex written with 6E in mind".

LonelyPath
08-03-2010, 01:11
When the last DA codex came out it was pretty good, it's just grown weaker over time as other SM codecis have had better, improved things added to them, not to mention there's all the stuff about the DA being a prototype for the SM codex, so I'm sure we'll get something half decent to play with. I still use the DA codex to this day, it's not as good as the vanilla one, but I'm a purist and get a acerage win/loss/draw ratio.

cuda1179
08-03-2010, 04:24
I would have to disagree about the current Dark Angels codex being "pretty good" when it was released. When I got my copy all I could do was flip to the next page hoping there was something worthwhile to play with.

Now don't get me wrong. There are plenty of "okay" things to play with and a couple good things, but there is a huge amount of crap in there too.

From the day of the Dark Angels release I knew I would be using the Space Marines codex and just have Green Marines. The problems have just gotten worse over time. None of these problems are huge. I find the unit structure, special rules, and special characters to all be good and not over-the-top. They simply need a price adjustment and updated wargear.

Sparowl
08-03-2010, 05:09
You know, it would be nice if the rest of the First Foundings got some love. Besides the DA, BA, SW and Ultramarines (which is what the last Codex: SM was actually about), there's five other chapters. It'd be nice if the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars and Salamanders got some love, instead of playing second fiddle to the "OMG!!BLUE4WINZOR!!" chapter.

Odin
11-03-2010, 15:08
Would be great to see a WD dex for Dark Angels. At the moment I'm mostly playing WHFB while I wait for a new DA dex, and even if I play 40K I'll use the Space Marine codex for my DAs.

I hope we get some models as downright fantastic as the Sanguinary Guard when the next dex finally arrives!

exsulis
11-03-2010, 17:10
When the last DA codex came out it was pretty good, it's just grown weaker over time as other SM codecis have had better, improved things added to them, not to mention there's all the stuff about the DA being a prototype for the SM codex, so I'm sure we'll get something half decent to play with. I still use the DA codex to this day, it's not as good as the vanilla one, but I'm a purist and get a average win/loss/draw ratio.

And I fell out of my chair laughing when I read this. The DA dex was bloody terrible 3 years ago. I was, and still am in the JJ needs to be tarred, feathered, and fired out of a cannon party.

The DA dex didn't stand up to its 4th ed counter part, nor the one before it(Eldar), or the one(chaos) after. It even got a Faq within a week of its release because it was so bad. Everything in the DA dex is 10% overpriced!! It took the first read through to realize how little thought went into the DA dex. I mean really didn't anyone even play a game with it?

Anyone remember the totally unplayable 3rd ed DA dex? Yeah, JJ's mess. Why do you think he hasn't written a codex since he botched the 4th ed version?

Ozendorph
11-03-2010, 17:10
The DA are JJ's favorite? I always assumed he had some deep loathing for the first legion and its players.

I'd take a WD dex in a heartbeat.

Dangersaurus
11-03-2010, 20:03
JJ likes elegent - some would say simplistic - rules, and it looks like his opinion was ascendant at the time. The player base has (vocally) shown they disagree with that style. It's not like he is using the game to work out some private beef, or that he'd write another codex with the same design philosophy in the current environment.

massey
11-03-2010, 20:25
My goodness, why so negative? I'm 100% positive that Jervis will conform to the current design philosophy and will flood us with over-the-top, over-blinged stuff like the Blood Angels and Space Wolves got. <-- Notice the double-edged sarcasm. I'm one of the few people 'round here who doesn't mind Thunderwolf Cavalry (except Canis' poor excuse for a wolf).

Yeah, I actually think Thunderwolf Cavalry are pretty cool. They're cheesy, of course, but they're cheesy in a He-Man riding Battle Cat kind of way. 40K has always had strong cartoony elements (I mean, we're talking about a game where some of the bad guys use electric guitars to shoot energy at people, and the wisest race in the galaxy looks like Ziggy Stardust).

Jervis is a good designer. He normally writes a really tight ruleset. The guy knows how to design a very playable game. The Dark Angels just suffered from a change in direction by the company.

Seeing the Space Wolves and Blood Angels has really made me anxious for a new DA codex.

exsulis
11-03-2010, 20:45
Jervis is a good designer. He normally writes a really tight ruleset. The guy knows how to design a very playable game. The Dark Angels just suffered from a change in direction by the company.

Seeing the Space Wolves and Blood Angels has really made me anxious for a new DA codex.

Did you read the last TWO DA dexes he has written? The 3rd ed version was unplayable!!! That isn't simplistic that's a bad design, and implimentaion. Sammael having more guns than he can fire, and it being a oops moment is yet again bad writting. For as simple(dumbed down) as the DA dex is, it has a number of glaring balance, and unworkable errors. Lets see I can attach a GKGM to my Deathwing squad but not a Beliel, or such armoured IC. That's a tight ruleset, or a competent designer?

Thommy H
12-03-2010, 20:49
Lets see I can attach a GKGM to my Deathwing squad but not a Beliel, or such armoured IC

That's not even true. It was a problem in 4th Edition, because there was a slightly bizarre rule that pretty much everyone ignored that said you couldn't attach characters to squads before deployment, but it's been corrected in 5th Edition as everyone knew it would be, because even the designers were ignoring/forgetting it.

The Dark Angels Codex is fine. It just doesn't have as many bells and whistles as the newer books, because you have to establish the rules before you can break them. People forget how crazy it was to have special characters unlock different units as Troops and return Space Marines to being 10-man units that could break down and into combat squads and wander around independently. Plus there were Veterans with two Attacks, which had never been standard up to that point and all those weapon options for them seemed pretty amazing. Does anyone remember Veterans from C:SM at the time? Basic Marine stats with an option for crappy "skills" (i.e. USRs) and incredibly overpriced Terminator Honours that gave them 2 Attacks and Ld 9. Dark Angels were seen by many as a return to form for Codex design.

Since then, the design ethic in GW has changed slightly, but the trends that C: DA set are still going strong. Characters unlocking variant builds, more streamlined stat-lines, grenades and pistols for all basic Marines...the list goes on. Anyone who thinks it's a "failed experiment" is forgetting just how many things showed up for the first time in that book.

BobTheZombie
12-03-2010, 20:56
I don't think it'll happen simply because the current codex functions well enough. It may not be a powerful codex, but it isn't so old that it's very difficult to use rules-wise.

Bartali
12-03-2010, 22:24
The Dark Angels Codex is fine. It just doesn't have as many bells and whistles as the newer books, because you have to establish the rules before you can break them.


I don't think it'll happen simply because the current codex functions well enough

It isn't fine, and it doesn't function well enough. It's not because of a lack of bells and whistles, it's because at the basic level, the rules are outdated and the various units cost too much.

For example, DA Tacticals are currently the worst Marine troops choice across the codices. They're overcosted compared to codex marines, and don't have any of the special rules that the BT, BA, and SW have

exsulis
12-03-2010, 23:33
That's not even true. It was a problem in 4th Edition, because there was a slightly bizarre rule that pretty much everyone ignored that said you couldn't attach characters to squads before deployment, but it's been corrected in 5th Edition as everyone knew it would be, because even the designers were ignoring/forgetting it.

It wasn't a bizarre rule. It was there to prevent abusive unit combos in some of the older Codexes. Yeah, took the DA to a GW tournament, and yeah COULDN'T attach my DA HQs to squads. :wtf: So not so bizarre but terribly thought out codex. It was so much fun having to roll for my HQs in reserve to see if I could add them into a drop pod.



The Dark Angels Codex is fine. It just doesn't have as many bells and whistles as the newer books, because you have to establish the rules before you can break them. People forget how crazy it was to have special characters unlock different units as Troops and return Space Marines to being 10-man units that could break down and into combat squads and wander around independently. Plus there were Veterans with two Attacks, which had never been standard up to that point and all those weapon options for them seemed pretty amazing. Does anyone remember Veterans from C:SM at the time? Basic Marine stats with an option for crappy "skills" (i.e. USRs) and incredibly overpriced Terminator Honours that gave them 2 Attacks and Ld 9. Dark Angels were seen by many as a return to form for Codex design.

Its not fine, just about everything in the Codex is 10-20+% overpriced!! How is that balanced? As to special characters unlocking stuff it wasn't a new thing, Fantasy has had it since 6th edition(2000) as I recall. Even the 3rd ed(the one JJ wrote, not the 3.5 Gav rewrote) had the use of SC unlocking the DW, and RW. And you know what, that dex(3.0) WAS unplayable. The 4th ed one isn't much better. Our version of the combat squad rule without a FAQ is near useless. Its been that way since it was released. Poor wording does not make a good mechanic. How many people used vets in the old codexes? I'll wager not too many. Who wanted to spend like almost as much as a terminator for less of a save. Now adding vet skills onto terminators, or devastors was considered to be awesome. :) Adding terminator honors to a CC unit was never considered overpriced, it was on shooty units. Universally, I saw that upgrade to nearly every SM CC unit I ever faced. Then we got it attached to every single unit. Even those you don't want in combat(IE Devastors). Our dex was seen as a return to 2nd edition rules, when all it was a nerf bat to a marine codex, and the BA got the same treatment in their pdf a couple months later.



Since then, the design ethic in GW has changed slightly, but the trends that C: DA set are still going strong. Characters unlocking variant builds, more streamlined stat-lines, grenades and pistols for all basic Marines...the list goes on. Anyone who thinks it's a "failed experiment" is forgetting just how many things showed up for the first time in that book.

Yeah, its called they actually played the codex at least once before they sent it off to the publisher. The stats aren't streamline they have been simplified, and auto-included into profiles whether you want that addition, and its price on that particular unit, or not. It does make it simpler to remember if a unit has something, or not; but it also makes those units bland, and less interesting. Oh, I remember how much stuff could end up on a single unit, and it could be a handful but at least it kept you on your toes. :evilgrin:

It still doesn't change the fact that the current DA dex should be a pdf considering what it is. Its still a ill-thought out, and an unplay tested beta for future SM releases. Being that it should free for anyone. Or $5 when I find new kids so disparaged from the crappiness of the DA dex that they are about to throw it away.

borginator
12-03-2010, 23:51
I'd love to see this happen, but for some reason there's a cloud of negativity over the chapter. Even the HH novels about the DA suck. You get the distinct feeling that GW hate DA.

Either way I think it's a great idea and more plausible than a full codex since I think Black Templar would next in line for a new codex. GW never skips the chance to throw more marines at you.

BobTheZombie
13-03-2010, 00:17
It isn't fine, and it doesn't function well enough. It's not because of a lack of bells and whistles, it's because at the basic level, the rules are outdated and the various units cost too much.

For example, DA Tacticals are currently the worst Marine troops choice across the codices. They're overcosted compared to codex marines, and don't have any of the special rules that the BT, BA, and SW have
It functions. It doesn't function well, and it doesn't compare well at all to any other marine codex, but it doesn't have the problems the old BA codex did in that it is a stand alone codex. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see an updated pdf list, but I can't see GW doing it as it would invalidate the current book they still have on general sale.

Freman Bloodglaive
13-03-2010, 00:29
Actually I'm pretty sure the Dark Angels would be better if they were still an army dependant on another army list ie Code Space Marines.

Space Wolves managed for a decade because of that fact. Whenever the Marine codex was updated the Wolves got the revised equipment, generally at a lower cost.

Plastic Rat
13-03-2010, 02:39
The Dark Angels Codex is fine. It just doesn't have as many bells and whistles as the newer books, because you have to establish the rules before you can break them.

A) No it's not fine. It was a horrible mess from the start that just got worse with age. Choices between a bolt pistol or a chainsword (seriously wtf?) and twin-linked weapons all over a character with BS5 are the highlights of this abortion.

B) I don't see why our codex had to be the test-bed for new ideas that were subsequently given to every other codex with extras. Next time just beta-test.



Jervis is a good designer. He normally writes a really tight ruleset. The guy knows how to design a very playable game. The Dark Angels just suffered from a change in direction by the company.

I recall Jervis pontificating add nauseum about how this design heralded the future. It wasn't a company thing, it was a Jervis thing. Unfortunately like everything he seems to do, he doesn't test it anywhere outside his own head.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 08:54
Its not fine, just about everything in the Codex is 10-20+% overpriced!! How is that balanced?

Yeah - an identical Tactical Squad from C: SM costs about 10 points more! What a huge disadvantage! I see this hyperbole all the time. Some things are more expensive, and some things are actually cheaper. It makes no difference to anything.


As to special characters unlocking stuff it wasn't a new thing, Fantasy has had it since 6th edition(2000) as I recall. Even the 3rd ed(the one JJ wrote, not the 3.5 Gav rewrote) had the use of SC unlocking the DW, and RW.

Nope. C: DA was the first book to do it. At best you had alternative lists that required a special character, but that's not the same thing. A character making a different unit Troops or Core appeared for the first time in the 4th Edition Dark Angels book and it's still with us today.


Our version of the combat squad rule without a FAQ is near useless.

I don't even understand this complaint. It's exactly the same rule, isn't it? Have I missed something? I've had C: DA since it was released and I own C:SM and I can't see any significant difference in the way they work, except maybe the SM version has a bit more clarity regarding Transports, but that was pretty much common sense anyway.

Look, just because something is a tiny little bit worse doesn't make it unplayable. Nor is it a personal insult or a huge, embarrassing gaffe. It just makes it fractionally harder to win against certain armies. And, you know what? If the Dark Angels Codex had been identical to the current Space Marine Codex, or even the Space Wolf or Blood Angels Codecies that we have now, everyone would be saying it was horribly overpowered for its time. You can't have it both ways - something is not "broken" because it's a bit above the power curve, and it's not "nerfed" if it's below it. Some things are just fine. Nerfed means you never have a chance to win. Broken means an auto-win button. Dancing around the power level slightly is neither of these things.

Hey, I wish I had 3++ storm shields and WS 6 commanders too (actually I do, because I just play with a hybrid Codex anyway, but that has nothing to do with things being nerfed) but that's just bells and whistles, like I said. Look past the Thunderfire Cannons and Land Raider Redeemers and C:SM is just a slightly more refined version of C: DA. What does that tell you? It tells you it worked well enough to set the standard for everything that followed.

Eldoriath
13-03-2010, 09:20
Nope. C: DA was the first book to do it. At best you had alternative lists that required a special character, but that's not the same thing. A character making a different unit Troops or Core appeared for the first time in the 4th Edition Dark Angels book and it's still with us today.

Actually the Catachan codex was way earlier then DA with that having Straken making Catachan devils troops instead of elite.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 09:32
I'd forgotten that (I do have Codex: Catachans around somewhere, actually...) but it was still just a random rule for a special character, not the beginning of a general policy.

Plastic Rat
13-03-2010, 13:16
Boy Thommy H, you're really going to fight this one out to the bitter end aren't you?

Honestly, the MAJORITY of players feel the codex is a steaming pile of horse manure. While I generally don't give an orange what the crowd thinks, in this case, it's the exception, not the rule to actually find a Dark Angels player who has anything good to say about the codex. I'm assuming you actually play and actively use the current DA codex and that's great, but for 95% aka "The Other Dark Angel Players" the codex sucks spectacularly in just about every way and always has.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 13:19
Thankfully, truth is not determined by majority vote.

Sir_Turalyon
13-03-2010, 13:45
Back to the topic, I don't think studio needs DA WD dex half as badly as it needed BA one 3 years ago - their mini dex was barely compatibile with 4th edition SM codex and would be invalidated by 5th edition SM dex, so it had to be replaced to make way for ultramarines. DA codex is completly valid and can be safely ignored by studio. This said, I would love to have WD list.

As for DA codex being weak when released, it introduced many things now taken as granted, like bolt pistols for everybody, cheap Rhinos and 2 attack veterans. It was fine, balanced codex whos main problem was there was no balanced SM codex to compare it with - ultramarines made straight transition from 5 men lasplas minimax squad 4th edition codex to stupidly overpowered 5th edition codex.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 13:52
Back to the topic, I don't think studio needs DA WD dex half as badly as it needed BA one 3 years ago - their mini dex was barely compatibile with 4th edition SM codex and would be invalidated by 5th edition SM dex, so it had to be replaced to make way5th edition dex. DA codex is completly valid.

As for DA codex being weak, it introduced many things now taken as granted, like bolt pistols for everybody, cheap Rhinos and 2 attack veterans. It was fine, balanced codex whos main problem was there was no balanced SM codex to compare it with - ultramarines made straight transition from 5 men lasplas minimax squad 4th edition codex to stupidly overpowered 5th edition codex.

Agreed. The issue is with compatibility, not with power-level. GW has demonstrated many times that they're ignorant - wilfully or otherwise - of lack of balance in their books. They're not, as a rule, competitive gamers. It's a design philosophy I'm perfectly comfortable with, personally, and I don't think the differences in power levels are as extreme as threads on Warseer (and elsewhere) would indicate: things just get exacerbated in the heat of discussion, especially on the internet.

It would of course be nice to have something official which said "yeah, you can bump your Company Masters up to WS 6 for +5 points and get sexy storm shields instead of your current rubbish ones" or something, but I can't ever see that happening, really. You'd be looking at a whole new mini-dex: I know, because I've written the necessary rules to create a hybrid list and it essentially amounts to "take this from C: DA, but this from C:SM", just like 3rd Edition, and those days are gone.

Bottom line: the book still works. It may be below the curve, but if Dark Eldar are still struggling along with a book two Editions old, there's no good reason to devote resources to updating Dark Angels. Their time will come, and it will probably be in the form of a proper Codex.

Bartali
13-03-2010, 14:03
Yeah - an identical Tactical Squad from C: SM costs about 10 points more! What a huge disadvantage! I see this hyperbole all the time. Some things are more expensive, and some things are actually cheaper. It makes no difference to anything.


Not really. PF,F,ML,Rhino. 20pts more for DA and without combat tactics.
Or my favourite 5 man Tac Squad. PW, F in a Razorback with TLLC for 190pts for DA. It's actually the same cost for C:SM (the combi-flamer bumps the price up), but C:SM can have the superior Las/Twin-Plas for the same price.

Mostly everything is cheaper for C:SM or they have more options, with very few exceptions (Ven Dreads and Pintle Storm Bolters).

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 14:10
Not really. PF,F,ML,Rhino. 20pts more for DA and without combat tactics.

Only 10 points different by my count. Power fists and Rhinos are both the same price, the only difference is the free flamer and missile launcher, which is partially balanced out by Space Marines costing more per model than Dark Angels. It's still the same for less, yes, but it's the same for a tiny bit less, not some kind of huge disadvantage.

Oh, and you can't physically field your second option with C:SM - you need ten Marines to access a special weapon. Unless you're substituting a comb-flamer (which is what you seem to be implying), but that's paying more for just one flamer shot, so that hardly supports your argument.

I'm not saying the Dark Angels Codex is better, or even as good as, the Space Marine Codex, just that it's not so massively bad that the whole thing ought to be written off as some kind of catastrophe. It's a fine book.

Plastic Rat
13-03-2010, 14:41
Oh well, I guess some people juggle geese. *shrug*

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 14:43
Baby geese, right?

Plastic Rat
13-03-2010, 14:44
Goslings. My hand to god, they were juggled.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 14:45
Six weeks I spent on that moon...

TheWarSmith
13-03-2010, 14:48
Do I hear DA players whining about wanting a new codex?

3 years you so? Try waiting TEN!! I believe Necrons are at about 8.

I actually wouldn't want a DE codex for the rules only, as DE somehow are still extremely competitive. I'd just want a little "new edition" sticker w/ some updates, and some new *******' models that don't look like green goblin clowns.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 14:56
Do I hear DA players whining about wanting a new codex?

No! Not at all!

Bartali
13-03-2010, 16:29
Only 10 points different by my count. Power fists and Rhinos are both the same price, the only difference is the free flamer and missile launcher, which is partially balanced out by Space Marines costing more per model than Dark Angels. It's still the same for less, yes, but it's the same for a tiny bit less, not some kind of huge disadvantage.

220pts for Space Marines, 240pts for DA. 20pts is a lot when spread across different units in an army.
Take the 1500pt force listed at the back of the DA codex. The exact same force (bar the Terminators not being able to mix weapons and loosing fearless, and the DA Tacticals loosing Combat Tactics) is 1335pts using the Space Marine codex. That's a disadvantage of 165pts.


Oh, and you can't physically field your second option with C:SM - you need ten Marines to access a special weapon. Unless you're substituting a comb-flamer (which is what you seem to be implying), but that's paying more for just one flamer shot, so that hardly supports your argument.

I did say a combi-flamer. You're only ever going to probably use it once per game, so it doesn't matter too much


I'm not saying the Dark Angels Codex is better, or even as good as, the Space Marine Codex, just that it's not so massively bad that the whole thing ought to be written off as some kind of catastrophe. It's a fine book.

It's currently the weakest Marine codex (taking into account the new BA 'dex). Don't get me wrong, it can be playable, as long as you're ruthless with your unit selection (bye bye 10 man tacticals, assault squads, devs etc)

Archangel_Ruined
13-03-2010, 16:45
They could do with one, if only to keep things roughly as they are but bring in the juicy bits from C:SM they're missing. It seems a bit daft that GW refuse to say that newer rules can't be applied to older codeces when they're clearly the same things, I'm looking at storm shields (obviously) but also DH and WH assault cannons. Seriously, THEY'RE THE SAME GUN! Anyway, put the anger back in the box, calm face now... A White Dwarf codex wouldn't be a bad idea, it would sort out the niggles with the codex, wouldn't require a bunch of new models like a paper list would and shouldn't provoke the anger of marine haters (who, admittedly do have a point these days...) if the list is clearly a 10 minute lunch break job involving heavy use of the vanilla dex and the cut and paste function. No new units, just some points costs and rules that don't make people scratch their heads so much.

Sir_Turalyon
13-03-2010, 18:35
Why stop on Dark Angels? Taking that reasoning little futher, GW shoud be making WD army lists for each army every time they release new codex, as all armies are or should be affected. With predictable results ;) .

Changes caused by Codex:Ultramarines - update codex Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Black Templars storm shield rules - they now cost 10 points more but give 3++ save.

Changes caused by Codex:Blood Angels - marine armies, CSM, Eldar and Imperial Guard units gain access to hand flamer.

Changes caused by Codex:Orks - update Codex Tau to include army-wide "run away from WAAAGH's charge range!" rule. Update codex Eldar to give all their vehicles "Slim profile" rule (Def rolla does not affect them)

Changes caused by Codex:Imperial Guard - update Codex Space Marines; add to Malleus Callgar's profile new "He's so awsome" rule (army opposing Calgar can't benefit from Officers of the Fleet and Astropaths); drop Calgar's cost by 5 points. Update Codex:Eldar Avatar rules - Avatar in 12" of Calgar is not fearless. Update Codex Dark Eldar: if enemy army contains Calgar reserves may not deploy via webway portal (they refuse to leeave safety of webway when they know whom they are facing). Update Codex: Dark Angels - your army may now contain Calgar if your minis are painted blue.

Archangel_Ruined
13-03-2010, 18:52
I disagree entirely, your first point vaguely agrees with me but from then on you're being facetious. The hand flamer may well be a rare piece of weaponary, fielded by few armies. The thunderfire cannon and landspeeder storm aren't likely to make appearances in other codeces as further proof of this. Why should Tau have a run away rule only in reaction to a newer codex, that makes no sense, why should eldar tanks be immune to being bludgeoned by several tons of spiked steel, again just silly. If you're going to argue by countering a valid point with blatant stupidity I struggle to see what it is you hope to achieve. I don't think FAQ's should be used to fundamentally alter a codex, but then I never said they should, I do think that WD and PDF codeces could be used to make the clearly outdated lists more compatible with the current game.

Sir_Turalyon
13-03-2010, 18:55
If you're going to argue by countering a valid point with blatant stupidity I struggle to see what it is you hope to achieve.

Actualy, I'm taking a valid point far enough for blatant stupidity to show between seams. Contradiction? If we asume we shoud update DA rules to the level of new codices, why not do it every time new codex makes DA outdated? And why limit ourselves to Dark Angels? How far is too far?

Oh, and last time we saw hand flamers, they were more common then bolt pistols, probably every army except Tyranids coud use them. Maing them unique Blood Angels weapons makes no sense (other then "this is the way rules are written, we're not goig to update every other list just because we could, move along ").

Archangel_Ruined
13-03-2010, 18:59
No, it isn't. Taking my point to a logical conclusion only means that an assault cannon or storm shield means the same in ANY codex. You have decided that every army should gain special rules in reaction to any newer codeces special rules. This isn't a contradiction, I'm afraid it is blatant stupidity.

Ironhand
13-03-2010, 19:05
My understanding is that GW (Jervis or some one of similar authority) has stated the BA White Dwarf Codex was a one time experiment that will not be repeated.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 22:58
220pts for Space Marines, 240pts for DA.

No, it's 230 for Space Marines. It'd be 220 if they were 15/model, but they ain't.

Occulto
13-03-2010, 23:01
Only 10 points different by my count. Power fists and Rhinos are both the same price, the only difference is the free flamer and missile launcher, which is partially balanced out by Space Marines costing more per model than Dark Angels. It's still the same for less, yes, but it's the same for a tiny bit less, not some kind of huge disadvantage.

It's minor, but DA get better smoke launchers. I do enjoy seeing people get confused when I point out that in my codex, smoke still obeys the old rules.

I'd take "all glancing hits" over a 4+ cover save any day. Especially since a smoked DA rhino behind cover gets the best of both worlds. Half the time you ignore the hit, and if it does get through, it's only glancing. :p

Makes mechanised DA a fair bit more reliable than the vanilla counterpart.

Thommy H
13-03-2010, 23:18
And they can get a special weapon in five-man squads, if we're counting minor buffs...

That's really not my point though. There are a multitude of little things that DA can do better than regular SM, but they're really kind of incidental - a future Codex wouldn't retain them. My whole argument is that what's worse is only a tiny bit worse, and doesn't make the whole book a waste of paper and ink.

Occulto
14-03-2010, 00:02
That's really not my point though. There are a multitude of little things that DA can do better than regular SM, but they're really kind of incidental - a future Codex wouldn't retain them. My whole argument is that what's worse is only a tiny bit worse, and doesn't make the whole book a waste of paper and ink.

Oh I agree. My point with the smoke launchers, is that people do comparisons that are incomplete.

I think that DA have reached the point where internet myth has overwhelmed reality.

Those who play DA know that, yes, we might be pushing s*** uphill occasionally, but for the most part the differences are usually negligible. You're put in a worse situation by getting a bad matchup or unfavorable terrain more than anything to do with the codex.

Archangel_Ruined
14-03-2010, 00:23
I agree, entirely. However, I stated that a WD and PDF codex that only requires 10 minutes worth of cut and paste from the vanilla dex would be entirely worthwhile. Being that you both admit to obvious deficiencies in your printed list (as it stands) I can't see why you'd disagree with a nip and tuck WD/PDF update.

shabbadoo
14-03-2010, 00:29
Especially as no model support is forthcoming, which means no codex is forthcoming. I'd prefer an immediate and simple update if only for the fact that it would bring more of the SM lists to a standard level for not only the players of those armies, but for the opponents of those armies. Only needing to remember one rules version for SM units/equipment in particular would be kinda...useful. ;)

Archangel_Ruined
14-03-2010, 00:37
Precisely, a storm shield should be just that. The nerf to this buff (were it needed) is that a smoke launcher should be the same in any list.

Thommy H
14-03-2010, 10:19
And a psychic hood.

Not that it matters for anyone, but the way I play it with my incredibly permissive regular opponent is to use the Space Marine rules for any item or rule with the same name. This means fiddling with a few points costs to make things fair (more expensive Cyclones, for example) but it does allow me to field a "modern" army. Then there's WS 6 on commanders and little things like that which take more time to work out and balance, but I now have what I believe is a fairly comprehensive document for using a hybrid Codex.

Not ideal, and I'm aware it contradicts my "Dark Angels are fine..." stance to a certain extent, but I think all of the buffs that Space Marines got are incidental ones - there's no reason for better storm shield and harder commanders, they just didn't think to do it that way until after C: DA was released and, after all, C:SM always sets the standard for each edition of the game.

Lord of Worms
14-03-2010, 10:32
And a psychic hood.

Not that it matters for anyone, but the way I play it with my incredibly permissive regular opponent is to use the Space Marine rules for any item or rule with the same name. This means fiddling with a few points costs to make things fair (more expensive Cyclones, for example) but it does allow me to field a "modern" army. Then there's WS 6 on commanders and little things like that which take more time to work out and balance, but I now have what I believe is a fairly comprehensive document for using a hybrid Codex.

Not ideal, and I'm aware it contradicts my "Dark Angels are fine..." stance to a certain extent, but I think all of the buffs that Space Marines got are incidental ones - there's no reason for better storm shield and harder commanders, they just didn't think to do it that way until after C: DA was released and, after all, C:SM always sets the standard for each edition of the game.

This is the best way to approach any rules compatibility issue. If my years of Necromunda taught me anything, it's to do what makes sense, not RAW.

Thommy H
14-03-2010, 10:45
Also, it's exactly what the FAQ says to do, but since it's all contingent on getting your opponent's permission and "the most important rule", everyone pretty much ignores it.

The moral of the story is only ever play against your fiancée.

massey
14-03-2010, 14:29
Dark Angels are a little behind the curve, but it's not too bad. That said, I use the regular SM codex and just rename the characters something Dark Angel-y. My Belial is just a converted Lysander. Uses his rules, too.

Still, I get their motivation, and appreciate it. I remember back in college, when some guys tried to get me into Magic cards. I bought some cards, read the little rule book, and thought I knew enough to play. Nope. They brought out this massive list of FAQs they'd printed off the internet. "That card doesn't work that way anymore." "That card isn't legal anymore." It sucked, and I stopped playing.

GW wants to keep the game accessible for the casual player, and I appreciate that. If some kid walks into the store, buys an Assault on Black Reach set, a Marine Battleforce, and the Dark Angel codex, he should be able to play the game without having to scour the internet for changes. If he has questions, he might eventually seek out a FAQ to answer them. But he should be able to play without being required to seek out something online. When was the last time you looked for a FAQ for Monopoly?