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epicwargames
08-03-2010, 03:39
Hi,

I'm sorry if this has been asked before. I can't find the answer in GW FAQ either.

Vanhels Dance Macabre says the unit can make a "normal" move up to 8 inches. Does this mean it is restricted by all movement modifiers as "normal": half movement through difficult terrain, is march blocked, reforming takes up half movement, etc. My buddy says that it allows you to move 8 inches ignoring any kind of movement restrictions.

Can someone please help?

Thanks a ton!

meneroth
08-03-2010, 04:08
yes, it is restricted by all normal movement modifiers. i couldnt give you any proof beyond the word "normal" and the intuitivness of it. it seems pretty self explanitory to me.

Tykinkuula
08-03-2010, 07:48
Agreed. Normal move is normal move. If there were exeptions to normality, they would have to mentioned, like the 8 inch limitation is.

RealMikeBob
08-03-2010, 09:41
Its not a march move so can't be march blocked. But the other restrictions would apply.

Milgram
08-03-2010, 10:51
well, actually it is a normal movement - in which you can march, if you are able to. it is not <move 8">, it is <do a normal move up to 8">.

Tykinkuula
08-03-2010, 15:32
Indeed. Examples follow:

Zombies move 4, so when vanheled could move 4 or march 8 if you aren't blocked.

Lets say you have osme cavalry, they could move 7 or marhc 8, if not blocked. (you may only move up to 8 inches)

Let's say you're playing some nifty scenario and your zombies are dwarves and have M3. When vanheled, they might move up to 3 inches, or march up to 6. They can never reach the max 8 limited by the spell itself.

Bac5665
08-03-2010, 15:42
How many times have we had this discussion now? I'm sure someone could search warseer for a few threads on this topic.

For what it's worth, I think that you can march block a unit using Van Hels, as that is the most "normal" reading of the word "normal" in the text.

rtunian
08-03-2010, 15:58
tangential q: can those zombies make a vanhel's march move if there is not a vampire w/in march-allowance range?

epicwargames
08-03-2010, 16:14
So let's say my skeleton unit is wihin 8" of an enemy unit and I cast vanhels on the skeleton unit. They can only move 4" since they make a normal move but being march blocked, they could normally not move more than 4". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

sulla
08-03-2010, 16:58
tangential q: can those zombies make a vanhel's march move if there is not a vampire w/in march-allowance range?That would not be normal for them. If the rule does indeed say 'normal' movement, then, no.

WusteGeist
08-03-2010, 17:00
The spell replaces all movement values with 8 inches. Think of it more as a push. The unit is pushed along 8 inches. No matter what it just gets shoved along.

stripsteak
08-03-2010, 17:03
tangential q: can those zombies make a vanhel's march move if there is not a vampire w/in march-allowance range?

the special rules specify marching is allowed if they were near enough to a vampire at the start of their Movement phase. So i suppose you could start the turn close enough, march away during the movement phase. Then march again through vanhels even if at the start of the magic phase you are out of the normal range.

pretty much if they could march during the movement phase they can march for vanhels.

apbevan
08-03-2010, 18:17
-The unit moves up to 8"
-This is not a march so can not be march blocked.
-Difficult terrain still costs double movement points
-If contact with an enemy occurs it counts as a charge so measure before moving so proper charge reaction may be declared.

CasaHouse
08-03-2010, 18:25
-The unit moves up to 8"
-This is not a march so can not be march blocked.
-Difficult terrain still costs double movement points
-If contact with an enemy occurs it counts as a charge so measure before moving so proper charge reaction may be declared.

So, in your opinion "Normal move" means "Special double move that works like a march but isn't a march"? It's a normal move. They can move up to 8 inches total. If they're blocked, they can't march. The 8 inch limit is just to prevent casting it on Blood Knights and getting a ridiculous charge. You can make a normal move, but can't go more than 8" regardless of your move value.

What about "Normal move" implies that they are unaffected by marchblock but are still affected by terrain?

Normal is normal.

rtunian
08-03-2010, 18:33
the spell is pretty clear that it's not a blank check for 8 inches:



if the target is not in close combat, it can immediately make a move of up to 8" in the same way as a normal move made in the movement phase - it can charge (up to 8"), wheel, turn, change formation or even reform

apbevan
08-03-2010, 18:36
My Skeletons can make a normal move of 4" or a march move of 8"
My Blood Knights can make a normal move of 7" or a march move of 14"

Vanhels lets any unit make a move of up to 8". This move is made in the same way a unit can make a normal move. No where does it say it uses the movement value of the unit and I would argue that it is explicitly giving the unit 8" of movement.

rtunian
08-03-2010, 18:40
but if your skelletons are away from a vampire/gen, then a normal move in the movement phase is not 8" but 4", because a march move is disallowed. "normal" is what is normal for the subject. the subject is the target of the spell.

apbevan
08-03-2010, 18:46
The spell explicitly allows the unit to make a normal move of 8" NOT the units normal move up to 8" there is a big difference.

rtunian
08-03-2010, 20:22
as casahouse said, you have a very strange definition of "normal", apbevan

apbevan
08-03-2010, 21:59
No my definition of 8" of normal movement is 8", not 4" unless you march.

My skeletons have a normal move of 4" thus they can move 4" or they can march which doubles their normal movement. Please refer to page 15 of the rule book and read how marching doubles their normal movement.

So when a spell tells me a unit can make a normal move of 8" i am being explicitly told that unit can move in a normal fashion 8". The spell then goes on to say I can also use this 8" to charge or perform some other normal movement maneuvers.

Please explain where in the spell it tells you that you can move 8" but if your normal movement is not 8" you have to march?

Bac5665
08-03-2010, 22:53
It doesn't say move 8", it says make a normal move, up to 8". Very, very different.

goonerslg
08-03-2010, 22:56
"If the target is not in close combat, it can immediately make a move of up to 8 inches IN THE SAME WAY AS A NORMAL MOVE MADE IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE- it can charge (up to 8 inches), wheel, turn, change formation or even reform."

The part that I have typed in capitals surely means it is subject to all normal movement penalties including march blocking etc!!!!

Agnar the Howler
08-03-2010, 23:01
It doesn't say move 8", it says make a normal move, up to 8". Very, very different.

Actually, it doesn't say that, it says "In the same way as a normal move" which is wholly different from "Make a normal move". It does not say that you make a normal move at all, it only states that this move is done in the same way a normal move would.

apbevan
09-03-2010, 00:09
Sigh, you have completely ignored my points which I have backed with rules and you continue to reference the spell with an incorrect conclusion on what it is saying.

Vanhels provides a normal move of 8"
Skeltons on their own have a normal move of 4"

Where in the spell does it tell you to use the skeletons normal move and where in the spell does it tell you or even allow you to march(double) that normal movement.

The spell simple gives a unit a normal move of 8" what is so hard to understand about that?

rtunian
09-03-2010, 00:19
Sigh, you have completely ignored my points which I have backed with rules and you continue to reference the spell with an incorrect conclusion on what it is saying.

actually, you have not provided a single reference or rules quote. you also show with your repeated postings that you do not know what the actual words in the army book are, despite that they are posted here in this very thread for your convenience.


The spell simple gives a unit a normal move of 8" what is so hard to understand about that?

you are the one who is failing to understand the rule. alas, it can be made no plainer, so there's little point to pursuing the argument.

Ultimate Life Form
09-03-2010, 00:29
Hm... actually I understand both sides somehow; depending on how you read it I would actually deem both interpretations correct. :(

Interpretation 1: The unit moves according to the rules of movement phase (the 'normal' part of the rule), limited to 8"

Interpretation 2: The unit gains a free 8" movement and may use this in any way that would be possible during movement phase (it doesn't say 'make a normal move' but 'move 8" like you would during movement phase')

GW is to be blamed for that mess, it's again their old folly, the use of the word 'normal' for a situation that is by no means normal. :(

apbevan
09-03-2010, 00:33
No my definition of 8" of normal movement is 8", not 4" unless you march.

My skeletons have a normal move of 4" thus they can move 4" or they can march which doubles their normal movement. Please refer to page 15 of the rule book and read how marching doubles their normal movement.

So when a spell tells me a unit can make a normal move of 8" i am being explicitly told that unit can move in a normal fashion 8". The spell then goes on to say I can also use this 8" to charge or perform some other normal movement maneuvers.

Please explain where in the spell it tells you that you can move 8" but if your normal movement is not 8" you have to march?Please see red text where I specify you should read the rule book on normal movement, marching and the doubling of normal movement hence normal movement is not marching.

rtunian
09-03-2010, 02:09
Please see red text where I specify you should read the rule book on normal movement, marching and the doubling of normal movement hence normal movement is not marching.

lol nice try

Last edited by apbevan; 08-03-2010 at 23:07

besides, marching is a normal movement allowable under normal circumstances. what the heck are you talking about? it's rules are in the movement section, marching is part of normal movement rules.

undead, however, can only march when they are w/in proximity of a vampire, the general, or are a vampire. just because they are using vanhel's, doesn't mean they are no longer undead.

Aljoman
09-03-2010, 02:10
"If the target is not in close combat, it can immediately make a move of up to 8 inches in the same way as a normal move made in the movement phase - it can charge (up to 8 inches), wheel, turn, change formation or even reform."

The thing is the rules supporting not having to march are in the spell description. If the "in the same way as a normal move made in the movement phase" were not there I think it might be a bit simpler. Also I support a march is not a normal move, it is a special move.

EDIT: Not debating any of the undead cannot march, debating March is a normal move. If all moves were normal there would be no need to put the proviso for charging.

Also pg 15 "a unit... cannot change formation or turn..." while marching, which we specifically can here during this "move of up to 8 inches in the same way as a normal move made in the movement phase".

Zaustus
09-03-2010, 03:53
Hmm, as an impartial observer, I'm with ULF here. I can see the argument from both sides, just as he stated.

I suspect interpretation 1 was Gav's intention, but unless he comes on here and confirms that, it's ambiguous. In my game against VC yesterday, my opponent played it as interpretation 2, moving 8" even if I fled the charge and got away. I hadn't known about the controversy yet at that point, though.

Milgram
09-03-2010, 05:18
change formation, reform and charge are not 'absolute basic movements' either. but... go on, fight against the windmills.

sholcomb
09-03-2010, 05:48
I entirely agree that it is 8" period, you don't have to march. It is important to note that the spell does not say, "make a normal move up to 8"", but "make a move up to 8" in the same way as a normal move". A significant difference. Also note how the spell specifically states all the special move you can do, with the curiously missing march option.

If we were trying to interpret the intent of the spell instead of RAW, I would note that throughout the history of this spell in many additions, it has always meant move 8" period. Even back when undead could not march under any circumstances. If the rule can be reasonably interpreted either way, precedence would dictate.