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ZoomDog
14-03-2010, 01:18
Situation in a battle yesterday: a Giant with 2 wounds remaining charged a building with 10 Chaos Warriors in it. Obviously the charging benefit is lost so the Warriors go first, but then according to the rules up to US 10 models could fight. So somehow 10 Chaos Warriors managed to group around the building windows and takes swings at the Giant.
Not surprisingly, the 21 attacks inflicted the remaining two wounds (and 5 or 6 more), and the Giant dropped.
Is this how it's meant to work? It seems odd that the Warriors would get a lot more attacks from being inside a building than they would if it was a standard fight with 4 models in contact.

babyberg31
14-03-2010, 01:54
Rules are clear on this. A total of 10 Us could fight. It's not only attack from the windows but it show that each unit attack in\around the building. A giant with 6 US could be ''teamed'' with 4 other infantry normal bases or a troll. It's true that the giant had close to no chance at all...

But, let's face it... I can't think of somebody that could dispatch a warriors of chaos unit from a fortified building except other warrior or chosens... (or something close to them)

Milgram
14-03-2010, 06:13
only infantry can charge buildings.

ZoomDog
14-03-2010, 08:20
only infantry can charge buildings.

Ah, right you are! That would've changed things.
Cheers!

Xzazzarai
15-03-2010, 11:29
Sience you lose charging bonuses and it counts as ongoing combat, can a ranked up unit of spearmen charging the building fight with two ranks?

theunwantedbeing
15-03-2010, 12:12
Sience you lose charging bonuses and it counts as ongoing combat, can a ranked up unit of spearmen charging the building fight with two ranks?

No, you need to have not moved that turn to fight in 2 ranks with spears.

Oh and only a us of 10 can fight anyway. Regardless of how the unit is formed.
So it doesnt matter!

babyberg31
15-03-2010, 13:53
only infantry can charge buildings.


In the BRB they state a exemple of Ogres charging a building... So anybody can charge buildings. Restrictions are multiple, yes, but monster could also charge. Only one unit can charge (ex: If you have multiple frenzy unit, only one can\should charge), and only infantry unit can enter the building.

This is the way i'm seeing it. If only infantry could charge building, they would not state a ogre charge in the exemple. Don't want to start a public debate ;), but it's my interpretation.

willowdark
15-03-2010, 13:58
Ogres are infantry. They're Ogre-class infantry, not monsters. A Giant is a monster, not infantry.

Adran
15-03-2010, 14:00
Ogre units are infantry. (as are trolls, kroxigore, rat ogres, ushabti to name a few).

skank
15-03-2010, 14:14
the descriptions of infantry, monsters etc are on page 7.

Ogres are infantry.

babyberg31
15-03-2010, 23:17
good to know...

but does that mean Dommbull, Gorger, dragon-ogre and stuff like are infantry and can enter a building?

An I understand you POV for the infantry\monster. But I did not found a part were it said that monster CAN'T charge a building... True, they cannot go in it, but they can charge it?

stripsteak
15-03-2010, 23:23
don't know about doombull, and gorgers not sure about. Dragon ogres are infantry yes (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238974).

pg 98. the rules for assaulting a building only allow for infantry to assault the building.

Urgat
15-03-2010, 23:48
Doombulls are minotaurs, and gorgers are ogres. There's no need to overcomplicate things. Just like an ogre tyrant can enter buildings, those dudes can too.

skank
16-03-2010, 03:53
Hate to bring it up... but gorgers are monsters. Stuff on a 40mm base are not allways infantry, eagles, tomb scorpions and the like for example.

Just check out page 7.

Urgat
16-03-2010, 09:50
No, they're infantry, because that's what the older basechart says, because that's what the fluff says (they're ogres), because the definition of infantry is ogre sized fighting on foot (which eagles and the likes don't do, that's why they're not infantry), and, finally because that way of you of assuming that because they might be monsters, they're ARE monsters irritates me.

skank
16-03-2010, 15:38
Sorry to irritate you... :rolleyes: Are'nt you assuming gorgers ARE infantry because they might be. Should i be irritated?

The fluff says they are ogres, true, but thats of no relivance (and incidentally they are not in the list of 'ogre' units in the AB).
Eagles are not monsters because they are'nt fighting on foot, they are monsters because they are single models (unit size 1) that cannot be joined by characters and cannot join units.

Infantry units must be unit size 1+, monsters must be unit size 1 (and maybe handlers).
You think a tomb scorpion is infantry? it is on foot. Could a TK character join it in your opinion?

Milgram
16-03-2010, 15:54
eagles are also no chariots. I'm just sayin'

unmounted, nonmonstrous characters are also infantry. what is the unit size of a character?

Urgat
16-03-2010, 16:04
Sorry to irritate you... :rolleyes: Are'nt you assuming gorgers ARE infantry because they might be.

No, they are because the basechart that used to be on the french GW website said they are infantry. Not my fault if they've removed it when they redid their website. Certainly if you look around on google, you will find it, so be my guest.
Squig hoppers are infantry that can't be joined by characters, by the way (and I'd hardly say a scorpion is on "foot", and there's quite a lot of ogre sized troops that are not in your BRB list).

willowdark
16-03-2010, 16:16
Aren't Tomb Scorpions on a 50mm base?

Urgat
16-03-2010, 16:18
Yeah, they are, 50*50, US4
Eagles too, in fact (but US3). Hawk riders are the ones on 40*40 bases (and are flying cavalry). I should have checked first, would have saved an argument, sorry.

Kalandros
16-03-2010, 16:20
Sorry to irritate you... :rolleyes: Are'nt you assuming gorgers ARE infantry because they might be. Should i be irritated?

The fluff says they are ogres, true, but thats of no relivance (and incidentally they are not in the list of 'ogre' units in the AB).
Eagles are not monsters because they are'nt fighting on foot, they are monsters because they are single models (unit size 1) that cannot be joined by characters and cannot join units.

Infantry units must be unit size 1+, monsters must be unit size 1 (and maybe handlers).
You think a tomb scorpion is infantry? it is on foot. Could a TK character join it in your opinion?


Tomb Scorpion is a Monster because it uses its Wounds value for Unit Strength and is on a 50mm base.

Gorgers are unbreakable, thus others can't join it, and its an Ogre, thus US3 even if it has 4 Wounds. Its Large Infantry like any other Ogre.

skank
16-03-2010, 16:23
Milgram: True, they're not characters too. Chariots and characters are outlined also on page 6/7.
Which character are you talking about? If it's ogres then US3 (it says so in the book.) The whole US of characters thing is a muddle. Best not get into that.

Urgat: I'd look at that chart if i did not think a gorger is a monster. As it fits the profile of a monster perfectly (and does not fit infantry) i can use the standard monster rules. In what way does a gorger not fit the monster catagory?

So, how about that infantry Tomb scorpion and the TK character?

Urgat
16-03-2010, 16:34
As Willowdark said, tomb scorpions are on 50x50, and if you don't want to look up something because you think it's this way and not that way, like hell I'm going to waste my time arguing with you.

skank
16-03-2010, 16:48
Yeah, sorry bout that i posted after he did. My friend uses them on 40mm bases. seriously chill out, it's not an argument, just a disagreement.

Urgat
16-03-2010, 16:57
Yeah, you're right, sorry about that. Dunno what's got to me today, it's not only that topic, I'm being agressive in all the topics I've posted in today.

Milgram
16-03-2010, 17:15
Tomb Scorpion is a Monster because it uses its Wounds value for Unit Strength and is on a 50mm base.

no, it uses its wound value for unit strength because it is a monster. 50mm base is a good indicator for a monster. but not all monster use 50mm bases and not everything on a 50mm base is a monster.



Which character are you talking about?

a rhetorical character. that asks for his unit size, not strength. which again is a rhetorical question.

skank
16-03-2010, 17:19
No worries, just noticed your sig:).

Anyway here's an argument on ogrestronghold about this (gorger monster or infantry), it's 11 pages long and pretty heated but comes to a fairly solid conclution.

Shame, as i'm an ogre player and would be quite useful to assualt buildings, plus getting an escort for scragg when he's unbreakable would be great to stop him getting shot up so much.

Edit-Milgram: Best not to ask that... I guess US1 for regular character, US2 if on mount, if 'monsterous' use the wounds otherwise hopefully the AB will tell you (like in ogres).

Urgat
16-03-2010, 17:26
Do you have the link to this discussion on OgreStronghold? It'd be nice to point out to the french base chart (see atachment). AFIK, it's the most up to date official one, but for some reason, there's never been an english version, and it's not been put back when they redid the website.

willowdark
16-03-2010, 17:31
If you go to the GW website and view each product's description, it says right there what the model is packaged with. That's what really matters, the base the model comes with.

This is really a matter of sloppy rules design. If you go to the book, there is almost nothing that distinguishes Ogre infantry from monsters. It says ogres can go on a 40 or a 50mm base, and it actually says monsters can be on "any base/no base," whatever the ****! that means.

So really, it becomes a matter of "does it fight by itself, or can you make a unit of more than one." In this case I'd argue a Gorger is a monster, because a unit can only consist of one, like Great Eagles and Giants, while anything that can be made a unit of more than one must be Ogre-class infantry, regardless of base size, as long as it fights on foot.

skank
16-03-2010, 17:43
Gah, i did not post the link.
http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=13744.0
It's been over for quite a while though.

That's an interesting chart, though i don't think you can trust foreign language rules. I went to a tourniment in Switzerland and the german (or was it french...) rulebook had ogre units as monsters, i found out when i tried to move into a building with them.

Willowdark: Agree completely.

Urgat
16-03-2010, 18:09
Yeah, pointless to post there. Well, for me, since the base chart is (afaik) the latest word from GW concerning gorgers, they're US3 infantry. Luckily I live in France, and nobody would contest the fact that there's no english version (they wouldn't even know :p). They'd probably be better as monsters, but heh, if I cared about that, I would have stopped playing OK a long time ago.

Milgram
16-03-2010, 18:31
I went to a tourniment in Switzerland and the german (or was it french...) rulebook had ogre units as monsters, i found out when i tried to move into a building with them.

must be the french one. they also tend to play in cm. :)



Edit-Milgram: Best not to ask that... I guess US1 for regular character, US2 if on mount, if 'monsterous' use the wounds otherwise hopefully the AB will tell you (like in ogres).

I still do not care for the unit strength. and the question about the unit size of characters remains rhetorical. if characters had a unit size of more than 1, they would be known as words. I'm just nitpicky on the 'infantry must have unit size 1+'.

skank
16-03-2010, 19:32
Ah, i see what you are getting at... unit size, not unit strenght.
It's on page 6 somewhere (not home now). It says something like: Most units are made up of several models grouped together (infantry and cav) but some units like chariots, characters, dragons* fight alone.
Can't remember the exact wording.

*it says dragons rather than monsters so as not to be totally clear:shifty:.

Urgat
16-03-2010, 21:20
must be the french one. they also tend to play in cm. :)

No, we don't use cm for Warhammer, but spanish and german players do, i believe.