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View Full Version : Ka'bandha Returns........



DrMabutu
15-03-2010, 01:24
The most infamous Bloodthirster in 40k returns in the fluff for the new Blood angel codex. He appears not once but three times in the fluff. The first time he shows up kills a Blood Angels captain, but is ultimately slain by Sanguinor (Irony). He then shows up again but is banished by a company of Grey Knights. The last time he shows up is in 999 M.41. He is at the head of a massive daemon horde that is heading to Baal to destroy it. However the Blood Angels are fully mobalised there due to the threat of an approaching tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. His fate is unknown but maybe he will get his ultimate revenge.


Also as a side note there is a bit unfortunate fluff concerning Skarbrand. Somehow he is defeated in single combat by Dante in a single blow that cleaves him in two. Anybody else think this would never happen in the game?

Hellebore
15-03-2010, 01:34
Lolz. LOLZ. Who'd a thunk that they'd do the oneupmanship where Dante does something more hardcore than Calgar?

Apparently also Sanguinor can best a creature that broke Sanguinius' legs.

But what do you expect? This is the new standard for GW background. The DA codex will probably have Azrael killing 3 Bloodthirsters with his watcher in the dark...



Hellebore

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 01:38
On the plus side Calgar hate will probably lessen since Dante and Sanguinor are doining more than he can.

Mannimarco
15-03-2010, 02:37
we can only hope eh?

brace yourself for a whole new nerd rage where we shall trot out personal experience and math hammer and the story shall be blown out of proportion depending on the bias of whos telling it (kinnda like how calgar 1 hit KOd an avatar)

looking forward to the DA dex where Azrael single handedly banashes a daemon primarch in 1 hit, or the BT dex where Grimaldus single handedly destroys an eldar cradtworld

massey
15-03-2010, 02:38
Also as a side note there is a bit unfortunate fluff concerning Skarbrand. Somehow he is defeated in single combat by Dante in a single blow that cleaves him in two. Anybody else think this would never happen in the game?

Read it again. The codex specifically states that this is a legend that has been spread about Dante. It also heavily suggests that the legend is not true.

And guys, the whinefest is getting old.

chaos0xomega
15-03-2010, 03:00
Well,the daemons book does specify that daemons can never truly be killed just banished back to the warp to be reformed, IIRC...

BUT, I think GW is just doing this to **** us off now...

I'm waiting for O'Shavah to one-shot the Nightbringer...no, the Void Dragon... and he'll do it with a sniper rifle for extra nerd rage!

Hellebore
15-03-2010, 03:11
Read it again. The codex specifically states that this is a legend that has been spread about Dante. It also heavily suggests that the legend is not true.

And guys, the whinefest is getting old.

Well that's one thing. Unfortunately GW has an annoying tendency to turn every 'legend' into truth, usually almost verbatim.

What will really take the cake is if xenos armies's special characters DON'T get to pull this ridiulous stuff too. It would be pretty blatant marine favouritism then. Not that I like this level of powerplay. I'd prefer it if they all went back to a more sensible level of power, but so long as everything is equitable it should be fine.

Hellebore

chaos0xomega
15-03-2010, 04:40
Well, the real problem is that its a 'metalegend' a legend within what is effectively a legend (I have always viewed 40k as something that should be read as a saga or an epic. Something which is based loosely on 'real events' but heavily embellished. In other words, if I was living in the year 50,000 I would read 40k as though it were the Illiad or Odyssey, I know some will disagree with me and say it should all be viewed as a history, but it seems rather OT and childish to do so).

The best GW can do is "there are stories/legends of so-and-so killin' such-and-such in a single blow and bringing salvation to all mankind." You can read that however the hell you want, but at the end of the day someone is going to say "NO! It really did happen, it says so right here, and the part about it being a story or a legend is just artistic freedom on the writers part to make it read better!"

NightrawenII
15-03-2010, 07:40
Eh guys, what did you expect? It's Matt Ward, the new C.S.Goto.:rolleyes:

@Hellebore
What will really take the cake is if xenos armies's special characters DON'T get to pull this ridiulous stuff too. It would be pretty blatant marine favouritism then. Not that I like this level of powerplay. I'd prefer it if they all went back to a more sensible level of power, but so long as everything is equitable it should be fine.

I wouldn't bet on it, look at C: Tyranids, there is no OTT stuff, when it come to SM or Imperium(though another Craftworld is destroyed.:().

Griffindale
15-03-2010, 07:48
Eh guys, what did you expect? It's Matt Ward, the new C.S.Goto.:rolleyes:

@Hellebore
What will really take the cake is if xenos armies's special characters DON'T get to pull this ridiulous stuff too. It would be pretty blatant marine favouritism then. Not that I like this level of powerplay. I'd prefer it if they all went back to a more sensible level of power, but so long as everything is equitable it should be fine.

I wouldn't bet on it, look at C: Tyranids, there is no OTT stuff, when it come to SM or Imperium(though another Craftworld is destroyed.:().

The Eldar are a dying race and they're afraid that you'll forget that if they don't kill them off wholesale in every single codex that comes out.

Idk the Tau experience with tyranids was comical. I think that they'll just have xenos beating up on xenos in their codeces. Here are my predictions:

Tau: Farsight or some other guy in a battle suit blasts swarmlord

Eldar: Farseer destroys a Slaaneshi Greater Daemon

Necron: C'tan devours an Avatar.

And don't forget thats also 3 more dead craftworlds.

Joshwow1
15-03-2010, 09:49
It's not like whatever they write magically happens in real life people.

The game is played with rules, not fluff....stop the whining already.

baphomael
15-03-2010, 10:37
Wow, Ka'bandha certainly holds a grudge.

Idaan
15-03-2010, 10:56
My reply would consist of a single LOL if not for the 10 character limit. Because of that:

LOLOLOLOLOL

Perfect Organism
15-03-2010, 11:20
What will really take the cake is if xenos armies's special characters DON'T get to pull this ridiulous stuff too...
Wazdakka Gutzmek destroyed a warlord titan and the Doom of Malan'tai isn't called that for nothing.

The pestilent 1
15-03-2010, 11:21
Inb4 C.S Goto... Aww damn.


I really don't know why GW bother when so many Warseer members are clearly world renowned rules writers and storytellers.

Hellebore
15-03-2010, 12:05
Inb4 C.S Goto... Aww damn.


I really don't know why GW bother when so many Warseer members are clearly world renowned rules writers and storytellers.

Well apart from being a sarcastic ad hominem fallacy and thus not a valid argument, I think for the most part it's true. Being able to best someone at something does not imbue the power to point out flaws, nor does being unable to best someone at something automatically PREVENT you from pointing out flaws. It isn't difficult to write 'X killed the much larger and more powerful Y with a single strike' and this is appearing with more and more frequency in the background.

Hellebore

Lord Malorne
15-03-2010, 12:18
Well that's one thing. Unfortunately GW has an annoying tendency to turn every 'legend' into truth, usually almost verbatim.

What will really take the cake is if xenos armies's special characters DON'T get to pull this ridiulous stuff too. It would be pretty blatant marine favouritism then. Not that I like this level of powerplay. I'd prefer it if they all went back to a more sensible level of power, but so long as everything is equitable it should be fine.

Hellebore

That said, one has to remeber, when these big beasties DO get talen down, it is surely a moment to remember, hence the story telling, to be sure I would prefer:

Brother Borehelle did smite the daemon with his lascannon at long range, thus did the peasents rejoice.

As opposed to:

Marines did fire mighty weapons at the beast, but super awesome chaptermaster Borehelle did have the final blow.

Just how it is, I myself do not mind one bit and find it laughable that people do, let alone those that waste time and posts with:

'Be prepared for all the whining folks'

Detestable.

SO to sum up, when these beasties do get pawned, it is an event worth talking about, the manner may not be to everyones tastes, but I care not, so long as these things die, it would be far worse if they had plot armour aswell, which in the case of Daemons they do, no matter how mnay times they get owned they 'don't die'.

Killgore
15-03-2010, 12:29
Eh guys, what did you expect? It's Matt Ward, the new C.S.Goto.:rolleyes:

@Hellebore
What will really take the cake is if xenos armies's special characters DON'T get to pull this ridiulous stuff too. It would be pretty blatant marine favouritism then. Not that I like this level of powerplay. I'd prefer it if they all went back to a more sensible level of power, but so long as everything is equitable it should be fine.

I wouldn't bet on it, look at C: Tyranids, there is no OTT stuff, when it come to SM or Imperium(though another Craftworld is destroyed.:().



Yes there is, The Swarm Lord opens a can of whoopass on everything it comes across! Even Calgar


What about Yriel and his magic weapon in Codex Eldar? His pirate fleet and pals took out an army of Tyranids, they must be real goooood.

And That Ork guy who rode his bike into a Warlord Titan or the one that killed a void whale.



Things are pretty equal

Mannimarco
15-03-2010, 13:16
The xenos get in there with their fair share of OTT heroics as well, anybody else remember when a military commander (ground forces) did the work of the space forces and destroyed a tyranid splinter fleet with no loss?

thats what the new books are like: we hear stories of all these heroic actions and yeah its cool but the only way GW think they can keep us interested and in awe is to make the next book with the next character do somthing even better. If you thought calgar vs the avatar and dante vs skarbrand were bad then we can only oimagine what will be written in only a few books time

Lord Malorne
15-03-2010, 13:20
This entire thread is Hyperbole.

NightrawenII
15-03-2010, 15:11
Yes there is, The Swarm Lord opens a can of whoopass on everything it comes across! Even Calgar
Nothing new, just the Tyrant get a name.

What about Yriel and his magic weapon in Codex Eldar? His pirate fleet and pals took out an army of Tyranids, they must be real goooood.
Are we talking about weapon, who is slowly killing his wearer?
Yriel is tragical hero, he have taken a drastical measures to win the battle and now he is paying the price. Seriously you cannot compare Yriel with.......hmm with any SM character(with bright exception of LotD).

And That Ork guy who rode his bike into a Warlord Titan or the one that killed a void whale.
Orks don't count really, their codex was always laughstock.

@Mannimarco
... and everyone hate her for it. Her case is a little different from Dante killing Skarbrand with single blow, thought.

nagash66
15-03-2010, 18:53
On the plus side Calgar hate will probably lessen since Dante and Sanguinor are doining more than he can.

Well even if Dante did do it ( which he dint) nether he or Sanguinor have the 1 things that make people hate calgar, the power of the Mary Sue perfection that Pappa smurf owns.


Dante is too old for this **** and he feels like it.
Sanguinor is some kind of ill be back BA spirit with a grudge.

Fear not Calgar you are still the king !

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 19:05
Well even if Dante did do it ( which he dint) nether he or Sanguinor have the 1 things that make people hate calgar, the power of the Mary Sue perfection that Pappa smurf owns.


Dante is too old for this **** and he feels like it.
Sanguinor is some kind of ill be back BA spirit with a grudge.

Fear not Calgar you are still the king !

Calgar is a craggy-faced old man with four bionic limbs after he lost to the Swarmlord.

Dante is a pretty boy vampire who one-shots Bloodthirsters and wears special gold armor with muscles.:rolleyes:

nagash66
15-03-2010, 19:25
Calgar is a craggy-faced old man with four bionic limbs after he lost to the Swarmlord.

Dante is a pretty boy vampire who one-shots Bloodthirsters and wears special gold armor with muscles.:rolleyes:

If you say calgar is a old man and then say Dante in the same line it is obvious that by old you mean young grasshopper... that or my math just really really sucks :p

bossfearless
15-03-2010, 19:40
I'm surprised nobody's yet mentioned Mephiston ripping a Carnifex apart with his bare hands. Although, I guess with his stats nowadays that would be completely feasible.

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 19:43
If you say calgar is a old man and then say Dante in the same line it is obvious that by old you mean young grasshopper... that or my math just really really sucks :p

Nope, Calgar looks like an old man, Dante looks like a pretty boy due to Blood Angel genetics.;)

nagash66
15-03-2010, 19:51
Nope, Calgar looks like an old man, Dante looks like a pretty boy due to Blood Angel genetics.;)

So the fact that Ultramarines get hit in the head allot ;)and the fact that BA genetics are superior is a bad thing:eek:

Maybe its the fact that Dante is one of the few marines chapter masters who dint get bashed up so much before getting the post that he still has the mental capacity to remeber why helmets are important in conbat has somethind to do with it? :p

That or he dint get squished by a bug....

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 19:56
So the fact that Ultramarines get hit in the head allot ;)and the fact that BA genetics are superior is a bad thing:eek:


Nope, it's the Ultramarines who look manly.



Maybe its the fact that Dante is one of the few marines chapter masters who dint get bashed up so much before getting the post that he still has the mental capacity to remeber why helmets are important in conbat has somethind to do with it? :p


Or maybe he just stayed on Baal while his chapter was almost annhilated.....twice.:rolleyes:



That or he dint get squished by a bug....

Or losing your primarch's blood to Fabius Bile.:rolleyes:

nagash66
15-03-2010, 20:04
Nope, it's the Ultramarines who look manly.


Yeah in their propaganda flims :p




Or maybe he just stayed on Baal while his chapter was almost annhilated.....twice.:rolleyes:


Or going to one of the bigest wars in Imperial history and asking the other chapter master present to take overall command :rolleyes:
( Hint the listening post DANTE was named after the latter)


Or losing your primarch's blood to Fabius Bile.:rolleyes:



DO NOT SPEAK OF THE WORKS OF HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED.

It did not make into the codex hence it never happened.

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 20:39
Yeah in their propaganda flims :p


You mean the models?



Or going to one of the bigest wars in Imperial history and asking the other chapter master present to take overall command :rolleyes:
( Hint the listening post DANTE was named after the latter)


Or taking on the entire Hive fleet Behemoth while the Blood Angels's struggled with a tendril of Leviathan?

And Calgar only lost his First Company fighting the Tyranids, Dante lost 950 Blood Angels on a Space Hulk.



DO NOT SPEAK OF THE WORKS OF HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED.

It did not make into the codex hence it never happened.

Sure.:rolleyes:

nagash66
15-03-2010, 20:46
You mean the models?
Or taking on the entire Hive fleet Behemoth while the Blood Angels's struggled with a tendril of Leviathan?

Yeah but no, a whole battlefleet was needed to save the Ultras and even then it just barely and only by the self sacrife and courage of a Admiral of the navy won that battle.



And Calgar only lost his First Company fighting the Tyranids, Dante lost 950 Blood Angels on a Space Hulk.



In all seriousnes if we go by space hulk and Swallows books plus things like armagedon all which happened while Dante was chapter master the BA who have had to have lost the Entire chapter 3 or more times over in less then 1000 years, so ether we got more marines then we know what to do with or ( and i go with this) things like Space Hulk and BL book are not to be mix with mainstream backround, unless GW does it for us ( and since the brand new codex makes no mention of ether of these events it hasnt).

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 20:49
Yeah but no, a whole battlefleet was needed to save the Ultras and even then it just barely and only by the self sacrife and courage of a Admiral of the navy won that battle.


All because of Calgar's leadership they survived.



In all seriousnes if we go by space hulk and Swallows books plus things like armagedon all which happened while Dante was chapter master the BA who have had to have lost the Entire chapter 3 or more times over in less then 1000 years, so ether we got more marines then we know what to do with or ( and i go with this) things like Space Hulk and BL book are not to be mix with mainstream backround, unless GW does it for us ( and since the brand new codex makes no mention of ether of these events it hasnt).

Or maybe Dante really is that incompetant.:rolleyes:

jb85
15-03-2010, 20:52
Or maybe Dante really is that incompetant.:rolleyes:

In that case it says something about Calgar when he acceded to Dante being in overall command in the Second War for Armageddon.

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 20:54
In that case it says something about Calgar when he acceded to Dante being in overall command in the Second War for Armageddon.

He was just cleaning up Dante's mess after the Blood Angels went beserk and jump packed straight into the main ork army.;)

nagash66
15-03-2010, 20:55
All because of Calgar's leadership they survived.

No, you wanna be all smurf proud do it about the defense of the polar defense lasers, the space battle was all Navy, if calgar really wanted to win so badly he would have done what the Navy admiral did and choose death before dishonour, rather then wait for help and then let it make the sacrifice.




Or maybe Dante really is that incompetant.:rolleyes:

Even if he was a chapter cant re gain those kind of losses on that time scale and still have the number the timetable in the new dex gives us.

It simply isnt possible unless the BA have more then 1000 marines, i mean in Book they need to borrow marines from the seccessors and they still aint anywhere near full numbers, and you want me to belive that they lose 950 men in 1 hulk and then poof armagedon swings around ( which is after as that where mephisto becomes mephisto) and there back to even half streght??? Come on man be realistic.

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 20:59
No, you wanna be all smurf proud do it about the defense of the polar defense lasers, the space battle was all Navy, if calgar really wanted to win so badly he would have done what the Navy admiral did and choose death before dishonour, rather then wait for help and then let it make the sacrifice.


Actually the article Defenders of Macragge is very clear abotu that Calgar masterminded the naval battle.:D



Even if he was a chapter cant re gain those kind of losses on that time scale and still have the number the timetable in the new dex gives us.


So this is your assumption?



It simply isnt possible unless the BA have more then 1000 marines, i mean in Book they need to borrow marines from the seccessors and they still aint anywhere near full numbers, and you want me to belive that they lose 950 men in 1 hulk and then poof armagedon swings around ( which is after as that where mephisto becomes mephisto) and there back to even half streght??? Come on man be realistic.

Obviously the Blood Angels rushed recruitment and got a bunch of beserkers at Armageddon.;)

jb85
15-03-2010, 20:59
He was just standing watching Dante after the Blood Angels went beserk and jump packed straight into the main ork army shattering their resistance.;)

Fixed it for you :p

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 21:00
Fixed it for you :p

Forgot to mention who took out the other half of the ork horde.;)

jb85
15-03-2010, 21:07
Forgot to mention who took out the other half of the ork horde.;)

Ahh yes, Tu'Shan, how could I forget :cool:

Mannimarco
15-03-2010, 21:08
this is getting more than a little off topic guys, we should start a new thread where we can get into "yeah well my chapter master is bigger that your chapter master.....oh yeah well my chapter master is tougher than your chapter master"

on topic: I seriously hope this isnt true, Im going to give the dex a look and see what it says word for word rather than going by opinion of what sombody else on the net said, a lot of the hatred for any characters OTT shenanigans could be avoided if people read the story themselves as opposed to just going by the review of the guy who heard the guy who was standing near the guy who was reading the book

gotta admit though, just by reading what others have said it looks really bad, time well tell though

nagash66
15-03-2010, 21:11
this is getting more than a little off topic guys, we should start a new thread where we can get into "yeah well my chapter master is bigger that your chapter master.....oh yeah well my chapter master is tougher than your chapter master"


Spoilsport :rolleyes: God forbid we havea little fun on war seer ;), we should instead all go back to talking about how broken the new army is :p


Ahh yes, Tu'Shan, how could I forget :cool:

And or the imperial guard, titan legions, sisters of battle or navy airstrikes, or maybe these were the orcs that made it back into the Jungle.

Lord_Crull
15-03-2010, 21:38
And or the imperial guard,

Hiding in Hades Hive.



sisters of battle

don't recall them., or the Titans.


navy airstrikes,

Nor them.:p


Ahh yes, Tu'Shan, how could I forget :cool:

Yes, he did a fine job with the rearguard.

Hellebore
15-03-2010, 23:42
In all seriousnes if we go by space hulk and Swallows books plus things like armagedon all which happened while Dante was chapter master the BA who have had to have lost the Entire chapter 3 or more times over in less then 1000 years, so ether we got more marines then we know what to do with or ( and i go with this) things like Space Hulk and BL book are not to be mix with mainstream backround, unless GW does it for us ( and since the brand new codex makes no mention of ether of these events it hasnt).

Actually I think it could be possible. I think that the blood angels can replenish their troop supplies faster than any other chapter and do it with less pickiness.

The sarcophagus method turns a runty irradiated desert peasant into a blood angel in one year. That's total, not 10 years of continuous implantation and adjustments.

This would mean, depending on how many sarcophagi they have, they can rebuild whole squads in only a few years. They may not be veterans, but they will still be space marines.


Hellebore

w00tm0ng3r
16-03-2010, 03:21
I really hope this is just wildly exaggerated hyperbole... First Avatars and now FREAKING BLOODTHIRSTERS are dropping like flies before the fury of the Worf effect >.<

First off, who exactly is Sanguinor??? I've never heard of him... is he new? Whoever he is, I'm somewhat disinclined to believe he can take out a greater daemon who beat down Sanguinus himself and then offed half a chapter's worth of blood angels with essentially a flick of the wrist.

Getting owned by a company of Grey Knights is the standard way of killing off stupidly powerful daemons, so that's fine... though it does raise the issue of who/what (frankly at this point I'm getting the WTF factor about this guy) exactly this Sanguinor is if he can match 100 daemon killing specialists at anti-daemon combat...

And then Dante... I know he's a hardass **** and all, but really? Skarbrand is to my count the third strongest bloodthirster mentioned in fluff behind Ka'bandha and An'ggrath and he gets ONE SHOTTED? Legend or not, the very thought should be inconceivable. Even for half-truths/outright lies, some things just sound stupid: "I just blew up an aircraft carrier! With ONE 9mm bullet!"

And if bossfearless is correct and Mephiston really can rip carnifexes apart with his bare hands... what has the world come to... :cries: Alright so not as bad as one shotting one of the top 3 bloodthirsters, but still, it's bad.

If this keeps up... Well, remember those good old days when killing three berzerkers was totally awesome? The standard's rapidly becoming three bloodthirsters :rolleyes:

My predictions:

For the Eldar Maugan Ra will walk into the Eye of Terror and uppercut Slaanesh in the balls so hard he/she/it coughs up Eldrad, the two of them then casually walk back out, make a detour on Cadia where Eldrad's pure awesomeness creates an Eldar shadow in the warp, making all the daemons disappear and singlehandedly winning the Battle for Cadia.

For the necrons, the Deceiver will be revealed to be the secret behind the Alpha legion's trickery and Eldar precognition, the Nightbringer eats an avatar for breakfast and washes it down with the rest of the craftworld, the Void dragon wakes up and reveals he just let the Emperor win for the lulz and is actually far stronger than everything else in the galaxy (until the next codex comes out), and then a never-before-seen C'tan will randomly materialize in Sol and eat the sun.

Chaos gets a Great Unclean One unleashing a plague so virulent it casts a psychic shockwave 38,000 years into the past causing AIDS, a Keeper of Secrets so good it pleasures an entire convent of Sisters of Battle simultaneously, Fateweaver will reveal himself as the guy manipulating the Deceiver, and Ka'bandha will get his revenge with the aforementioned massive daemon host, dealing the Blood Angels a crushing defeat and causing them to lose 951 men (OOOOOOOHHHHH we one upped Space Hulk!!! WHAT NOW!?!?)

Hellebore
16-03-2010, 03:27
And with one long hyperbolic rant w00tm0ng3r did prophecise the demise of the 41st Millennium and lo it did come to pass and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth as well as screams of "Gamesworkshop raped my childhood!" echoing down the long paths of eternity.

w00tm0ng3r wins.

Hellebore

massey
16-03-2010, 03:59
Well that's one thing. Unfortunately GW has an annoying tendency to turn every 'legend' into truth, usually almost verbatim.


And this is what pisses me off. Based on your response, you obviously haven't read it. You're going on and on about this without actually seeing the source material. And that's why people call this "Whineseer".

Here's the story with Dante. His background information notes that he's been leader of the Blood Angels for longer than anyone can remember. Even Lysander, who was lost in the warp for 1000 years, can't remember a time when Dante wasn't Chapter Master. Not only has he been the leader for 1100 years, it's probably much longer than that. So no one really knows how old he is. This has led to his legend growing with every passing year. Each legend is bigger than the last. One legend is that he slew Skarbrand with a single blow. Then it says that these tales bother Dante. He's pragmatic, and ideas of him engaging a Bloodthirster in single combat bother his sensible mind. But he lets these legends grow, because people need hope. They need to know that there are heroes out there who can protect them from the monsters. Because the monsters out there are real.

When Space Marines see Dante, they see him as one of the great warriors of history, like if King Arthur returned in Britain's hour of need. And that's when Space Marines see him. For the peasants of the Imperium, he is literally a golden god. Imagine if aliens were attacking Earth (real, normal, us Earth), all looks lost, and suddenly Zeus or Superman or somebody showed up and blasted them all to kingdom come. That's how people of the Imperium feel when they see Dante. And he lets them see him this way, lets the legends spread, because he knows they need that hope.

See, that fluff isn't over the top. It does embellish his reputation, but it isn't about how he slapped a Bloodthirster with his junk and it fell and formed a crater big enough to hold his nuts. It's a legend.

Edit: Wootmonger, nobody knows who Sanguinor is. He's sort of this... ghost, or something. He shows up when the Blood Angels need him. That is all anyone knows. He shows up in the worst situations, when all is lost. So he's sort of like the Legion of the Damned, except he only shows up to save Blood Angels. So yes, he does show up like Superman to save the day. And then, when the fight is over, no one sees where he went.

They note that he appeared when Dante was a mere sergeant, ages ago, when 12 Blood Angels were sent on a suicide mission over some perceived transgression. So this boarding torpedo is launched at a Chaos flagship, and these guys are assigned to kill the Chaos Lord. So the boarding torpedo breaches the walls of the ship, and the first guy out of the torpedo is the Sanguinor. Everybody is like "who the hell is that?" and they count, and see that there are still 12 of them in the torpedo. So Sanguinor gives one of them the blessing of Sanguinius, and turns and flies off down the corridor, killing people. He's just enough to allow the 12 men to accomplish their job. They kill the Chaos lord, and like 3 Blood Angels survive. One of them was Dante. Sanguinor just... disappears after the battle. It's actually a really cool story.

Hellebore
16-03-2010, 04:17
What has that got to do with GW turning legends in the story into literal truth? OR that there are no legends, merely truths couched as legends to make them seem mysterious?

Does it flat out say that Dante DIDN'T do it? Your description can lead to many conclusions, one of which is that Dante is 'humble' and thus doesn't want to boast about doing such a deed, not that he didn't actually do such a deed. I've seen people argue over that reading for Calgar's 28 tomes of accomplishment - that someone else wrote it out and he doesn't like it (not that there is any evidence of that, it was simply a defence against people describing how full of themselves the Ultramarines are).

My position is backed up by a a lot of precedent. The entire origin of witchblades, wraithguard and eldar/necron gods was written out as a 'legend' fragment and is accepted as truth (as far as anything in 40k is truth). Russ' accomplishments are legends and true. I can't think of a single 'legend' in 40k that isn't also literally true, because that's what GW does. They write something all mysterious and pseudo mythic, and then turn around and state that the myth given was actually the literal truth.

Even if Dante literally states he had never engaged and killed a Bloodthirster in a single swing, GW has also shown willingness to drastically change the fate of space marine characters before: Lysander went from being dead to being lost for a 1000 years and escaping a prison daemon planet in his jockstrap.

But obivously if the codex says 'Dante doesn't like this talk of him killing a bloodthirster in one swing because he never has' then that's what it says and I'm not contesting it. Hence why I said in the line you quoted 'well that's one thing'; under the assumption it's not vague, that it literally states he didn't do it. The next line was stating that GW turns myth into reality all the time. The inference being that it better be clearly stated as not happening for it not to go in the 'myth=truth' pile.

My original point was only to say that GW has time and again turned legend into truth, so if this particular event is described in a 'legendary' way without a clear statement that it didn't happen then all precedent points toward it being true, as legend=truth is far more likely in 40k than the opposite.

hellebore

Griffindale
16-03-2010, 05:20
/facepalm:rolleyes:

massey
16-03-2010, 05:26
You haven't even read it and you're still criticizing it. Now you're criticizing it for what you think GW might do. You're just looking to be unhappy with it because it's space marines. Or maybe because you just love to hate GW. You don't get to make determinations as to what they likely meant by a particular line of text when you haven't read it. Stop and think about it for a second. Please don't talk about precedent when you haven't seen the actual book first hand.

I thought most of the fluff in it was very well written. I sat down for about two hours with it on Friday and read just about everything (I skipped over some stuff that appeared to be obvious reprint material -- I don't need to read another rundown of the Horus Heresy, or another description of the Rhino). I think they did a great job of making them heroic, alluding to the flaw, and keeping the vampire stuff extremely in check. In fact, other than a quick mention of their sarcophagi, pointy eye-teeth, and people found with no blood, there's nothing to indicate vampirism at all. Someone who had never read anything about them before would probably come away without jumping to that conclusion. There are some cool hints at it for those of us who already know. One of the successor chapters never remove their helmets in front of outsiders, ever, leading many to wonder what they look like (I'm guessing some butt ugly Count Orlock looking guys) -- they also have deep catacombs under their fortress, and people wonder what lies within them... That's a pretty cool bit to throw in.

Hellebore
16-03-2010, 06:12
The only judgement I've made is that GW have a precedent for turning their 'myths' into truths. I have then concluded that IF Dante's background is written as a myth (as was intimated in the original post and what my conclusions are worked from) and not actually specifically stated as being false that, given the aforementioned precedent, it will most likely be truth.

If someone were to say to me "I have discovered that the last 9 out of 10 myths published by GW have actually been literal truths" and then said "The Blood Angels codex lists Dante killing a Bloodthirster as a myth" I would conclude "There is a very high likelyhood that it is truth." If they then said "But the Blood Angels codex states that Dante denies doing this and actually says it's completely made up" I would conclude that "There is a small likelyhood that it is truth."

The above is a perfectly logically sound conclusion based on what has been said so far. And if you go back to the original post you quoted you'll find nothing in that where I definitively state it to be a certain way.



Well that's one thing. Unfortunately GW has an annoying tendency to turn every 'legend' into truth, usually almost verbatim.

What will really take the cake is if xenos armies's special characters DON'T get to pull this ridiulous stuff too. It would be pretty blatant marine favouritism then. Not that I like this level of powerplay. I'd prefer it if they all went back to a more sensible level of power, but so long as everything is equitable it should be fine.


I have highlighted all the conditional components of my statement. I have not stated there that it WILL be truth, only that GW VERIFIABLY has shown itself to turn legend into truth. Tendency does not mean CERTAINTY.

The next paragraph even says "IF".

I am generally very careful to put EXACTLY those types of conditions in what I say for PRECISELY this reason. So nothing I've said is wrong and Dante's background has a high likelyhood of being objective truth IF it is stated as a legend with no counter to it.

Hell, GW have even had the blood angels deny legends about themselves in the background, so precedent is there for that too. I'm referring to denial of blood drinking and murder of civilians for that purpose.

So I should be angry for you taking what I've said out of context as well. I've not claimed it IS so, only that if it is written a certain way, given GW's previous track record it is LIKELY to be so.

The OP made a statement, I made several judgements based on that statement. One was that the OP was accurately reporting the information.

If it doesn't say Dante killed a bloodthirster, or that Dante denies killing a bloodthirster then I have no problem changing that position, because it was based on faulty assumptions.

However the statement that GW purposefully turns legend into fact is evidenced.

Whether it supports Dante killing a BT or not depends on how it is written.

Hellebore

Poseidal
16-03-2010, 09:10
How much is written about the Sanguinor?

If they keep him veiled and mysterious and hinted to be ancient I'd probably be reasonably cool with his feats.

TheShadowCow
16-03-2010, 13:31
Yes there is, The Swarm Lord opens a can of whoopass on everything it comes across! Even Calgar

In the Swarmlord's defence, it could well be millions of years old. That's a lot of time to study up on tactics, swordplay and knowing who you should and shouldn't engage in melee :p

massey
16-03-2010, 13:44
How much is written about the Sanguinor?

If they keep him veiled and mysterious and hinted to be ancient I'd probably be reasonably cool with his feats.

There are a couple of different stories of him kicking ass out of nowhere. Basic Sanguinor battle goes something like this: Small group of BAs against overwhelming odds. Everything appears lost. "Look, up in the sky!" Sanguinor appears and helps them turn the tide. After battle, tiny handful of survivors look around and don't see him. No dead body is ever found. But thankfully you don't have the Sanguinor hanging out back at the fortress watching TV or anything. He appears very rarely, to the point that while most BAs believe in him, it's a very vague, distant belief. Just like most Christians don't actually expect Jesus to walk in the front door of their house.

He appears to be the ghost of Sanguinius or something like that. The BAs all have their own theories. It's never said who is right and who is wrong.

DrMabutu
16-03-2010, 14:12
If i remeber correctly Sanguinor is kinda like the Legion of the Damned in that he appears from the sky when he is most needed, and he helps to turn the tide of the battle. However it says that he never goes to outright win a battle, he just makes it possible to win a battle.

The codex also hints at him being the oldest Space Marine. It says the Sanguniary Guard believe him to be Azkellion, the founder of the guard, and one of Sanuinius' Bodyguards and the only Sanguinary Guardsman to survive the Horus Heresy due to him being told to stay on Terra to preserve the guard in case the rest of them die. It also says that the Emperors grace has kept Sanguinor safe from the withers of time.

In terms of his power in game, i think he is definately one of the best close combat characters in 40k, definately on par with Abbadon.

w00tm0ng3r
16-03-2010, 15:47
Wootmonger, nobody knows who Sanguinor is. He's sort of this... ghost, or something. He shows up when the Blood Angels need him. That is all anyone knows. He shows up in the worst situations, when all is lost. So he's sort of like the Legion of the Damned, except he only shows up to save Blood Angels. So yes, he does show up like Superman to save the day. And then, when the fight is over, no one sees where he went.

They note that he appeared when Dante was a mere sergeant, ages ago, when 12 Blood Angels were sent on a suicide mission over some perceived transgression. So this boarding torpedo is launched at a Chaos flagship, and these guys are assigned to kill the Chaos Lord. So the boarding torpedo breaches the walls of the ship, and the first guy out of the torpedo is the Sanguinor. Everybody is like "who the hell is that?" and they count, and see that there are still 12 of them in the torpedo. So Sanguinor gives one of them the blessing of Sanguinius, and turns and flies off down the corridor, killing people. He's just enough to allow the 12 men to accomplish their job. They kill the Chaos lord, and like 3 Blood Angels survive. One of them was Dante. Sanguinor just... disappears after the battle. It's actually a really cool story.


Ah ok, my first thought was "so they just promoted some random sergeant I've never heard of to captain and need to establish him as a badass... so they have him pwn Ka'Bandha... riiiiiight..." But then I figured that not even Matt Ward could be THAT @#^%!$@#&%^ing retarded.

DantesInferno
16-03-2010, 22:06
The only judgement I've made is that GW have a precedent for turning their 'myths' into truths.

To be fair, I think that's more a description of how the fans tend to interpret the background than it is of how GW tends to write it.

jb85
16-03-2010, 22:40
Here's the story with Dante. His background information notes that he's been leader of the Blood Angels for longer than anyone can remember. Even Lysander, who was lost in the warp for 1000 years, can't remember a time when Dante wasn't Chapter Master. Not only has he been the leader for 1100 years, it's probably much longer than that. So no one really knows how old he is. This has led to his legend growing with every passing year. Each legend is bigger than the last. One legend is that he slew Skarbrand with a single blow. Then it says that these tales bother Dante. He's pragmatic, and ideas of him engaging a Bloodthirster in single combat bother his sensible mind. But he lets these legends grow, because people need hope. They need to know that there are heroes out there who can protect them from the monsters. Because the monsters out there are real.

When Space Marines see Dante, they see him as one of the great warriors of history, like if King Arthur returned in Britain's hour of need. And that's when Space Marines see him. For the peasants of the Imperium, he is literally a golden god. Imagine if aliens were attacking Earth (real, normal, us Earth), all looks lost, and suddenly Zeus or Superman or somebody showed up and blasted them all to kingdom come. That's how people of the Imperium feel when they see Dante. And he lets them see him this way, lets the legends spread, because he knows they need that hope.

Well I like the fluff anyway! It helps to flesh out Dante as a character and the reluctant legend angle is much more interesting than the usual direction GW go when bigging up special characters.

puppetmaster24
16-03-2010, 22:50
So far all of you have ignored the biggest fluff tragedy.

and that is when (the gehena campain i think) dante and the necrons decide they are pals when some nids turn up and after the battle the necrons and blood angels call a truce because they are "battle weary".

C'MON DUDE. Battle weary necrons. when has that ever happend before. ever.

Fulgrim's Gimp
16-03-2010, 22:59
To be honest I think more of the goddawful characters in the daemon codex should go the way of Doomrider and more established interesting characters like Doombreed, Nkari, Foulspawn and Mkachan take their place in the next version of the codex.

Firaxin
16-03-2010, 23:05
The idea of a Sanguinius-ghost is very appealing to me. Note how it never wins the battle on its own, it just makes it possible for others to win--as Sanguinius did for the Emperor vs Horus (or so the BA claim).

madd0ct0r
17-03-2010, 00:00
So far all of you have ignored the biggest fluff tragedy.

and that is when (the gehena campain i think) dante and the necrons decide they are pals when some nids turn up and after the battle the necrons and blood angels call a truce because they are "battle weary".

C'MON DUDE. Battle weary necrons. when has that ever happend before. ever.

really?

can someone else confirm this?