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Feefait
15-03-2010, 16:37
And so the Skaven arguing continues.... lol

So here goes. 1 argument, 2 sides. Not gonna say where I come down, just present both cases.

Side 1: Skaven Strength in Number LD bonus stop s at +3.

- Rank bonuses are max 3
- Rank bonuses only exist in combat, so those are the rules that apply
- Book does not say 'max ld 10'
-It said up to +3 last edition and should be considered the same here.

Side 2: There is no max Ld bonus to Strength in Numbers

-It doesn't say it there is in the book.
-It did last edition and that line has been removed.
-Rank bonus is only added up in combat res for all other armies. +3 max combat resolution form ranks is different then Skaven rules.
-As it is not clearly state din the rule book that max rank bonus is +3 and this is for Ld, not combar res there is no maximum.


So which side are you on?
Sorry i don't have my books to quote the rules, but I am sure someone else can. :)

shelfunit.
15-03-2010, 16:39
Skaven books says "add their current rank bonus".
Rank bonus only goes up to +3.
Leadership is +3 max.

Admittedly rank bonus is added up in combat - but it doesn't state anywhere that ranks are only used in combat.

T10
15-03-2010, 16:46
And so the Skaven arguing continues.... lol
...
Sorry i don't have my books to quote the rules, but I am sure someone else can. :)

Meh.

-T10

Cambion Daystar
15-03-2010, 17:06
Skaven books says "add their current rank bonus".
Rank bonus only goes up to +3.
Leadership is +3 max.

Admittedly rank bonus is added up in combat - but it doesn't state anywhere that ranks are only used in combat.

+1 to what he says. Don't get how anyone can argue about this.

Ultimate Life Form
15-03-2010, 17:26
+1 to what he says. Don't get how anyone can argue about this.

Me neither, but some people are apparently... well, I won't say it.

To those people who would claim that rank bonus for combat resolution is to be treated as different from the Skaven rules and does also apply to caombat situation should please also point out the page number where it says that you get any kind of rank bonus outside of combat. If you would present me with such a stupid rule interpretation, I'd say that your rank bonus outside combat is 0, so there you go...

Feefait
15-03-2010, 17:37
Skaven get a rank bonus to their Ld. It does not say any maximum (though it maybe should) nor does it say 'as per combat' res. there is no rank bonus except for res and for skaven ld. it does not necessarily need its own spot in the main rule book as no other army uses rank bonus for anything other then combat res. question is are skaven the exception and does the combat res chart get applied to an army book rule that does not say to use combat rank bonuses.
of course hopefully 8th will make this discussion moot in the meantime i see the validity with either case.

Kalandros
15-03-2010, 17:42
... Orcs & goblins have used Rank bonuses outside of combat for years now.
Mork's Spirit Totem: add rank bonus to dispel dice
Whatever the Axe is named: +1S and +1A per rank bonus

+3 is the max.

Feefait
15-03-2010, 18:08
... Orcs & goblins have used Rank bonuses outside of combat for years now.
Mork's Spirit Totem: add rank bonus to dispel dice
Whatever the Axe is named: +1S and +1A per rank bonus

+3 is the max.

does it say a max in their book though? and what rule do they have that uses it?

rtunian
15-03-2010, 18:14
rank bonus is defined in the brb on page 38, and is capped at +3 in its own rules. there is no definition in any rule or army book, therefore there is no other definition.

for skaven to have a different way of calculating rank bonus, there would have to be an army rule for it, saying something along the lines of, "skaven to not calculate rank bonus in the normal way. instead they do x"

Tarliyn
15-03-2010, 18:32
Page 38 pretty clearly define the max rank bonus as +3. Also just because it is defined in the combat section doesn't mean the definition only pertains to the combat phase. It works:

- Ld bonus is max 3.
- You gain the bonus at any time it functions off your current ranks. Therefore unlike with combat res, for your break test you would add the amount of ranks you have at the end of combat instead of the beginning.
- The max for any characteristic is 10. (page 4, first paragraph, brb,.) Also the skaven book does says max 10 (page 33, 4 paragraph, skaven armybook).

Therefore both arguments are wrong.

decker_cky
15-03-2010, 18:47
Find another rank bonus in the rules anywhere and you might have an argument. But there's only one rank bonus, and it caps at +3.

Ayliffe
15-03-2010, 19:13
it's +3, there's no rank bonus it could be referring to other than the one that deals with combat res.

How could anyone even argue this?

Feefait
15-03-2010, 20:55
again...to beat a dead horse p. 38 is combat res. you get a +1 extra rank bonus for each rank beyond the first, of 5 models to max +3. IN COMBAT. it does not mention this applies to magic, shooting or psych tests. Skaven SiN is not combat res.

does anyone have access to an alternate language book? They seem to be much clearer on such things.

Malorian
15-03-2010, 21:05
does anyone have access to an alternate language book? They seem to be much clearer on such things.

The Welsh one basically says:

Skaven units get a bonus to their leadership based on the number of rank bonus in the unit.

But then there is an additional comment that says:

This maxes out at 3 so stop looking for loopholes you powergamer!


:shifty::p

decker_cky
15-03-2010, 21:35
again...to beat a dead horse p. 38 is combat res. you get a +1 extra rank bonus for each rank beyond the first, of 5 models to max +3. IN COMBAT. it does not mention this applies to magic, shooting or psych tests. Skaven SiN is not combat res.

does anyone have access to an alternate language book? They seem to be much clearer on such things.

Feefait.....find another interpretation with rules support and you can start the argument there. To do that, you'll need a different definition for rank bonus. Until that, there's no legs for any other interpretation.

punkoteloco
15-03-2010, 22:04
You are discussing a rule that is very old and has never changed. The book says that you add the rank bonus to the leadership. The only rank bonus is in Combat Res and is up to 3. So, no more than +3 leadership to Skaven. Its been always this way.
I thought these argument were finished with the FAQ but it seems that people find new ways to start these kinds of threads.

Cambion Daystar
15-03-2010, 22:04
That's because we like to argue :p

TheDarkDaff
16-03-2010, 03:52
Me neither, but some people are apparently... well, I won't say it.

To those people who would claim that rank bonus for combat resolution is to be treated as different from the Skaven rules and does also apply to caombat situation should please also point out the page number where it says that you get any kind of rank bonus outside of combat. If you would present me with such a stupid rule interpretation, I'd say that your rank bonus outside combat is 0, so there you go...

This is actually the closest to the RAW. Will check my BRB when i get home from work but i believe that the Rank Bonus rules specify they are only calculated at the start of the combat phase and are only in effect for the combat phase. This would mean that any other time the Skaven have no rank bonus.

Of course you could just be reasonable and work it out each time you need to take a Ld based test with them.

Necromancy Black
16-03-2010, 04:53
again...to beat a dead horse p. 38 is combat res. you get a +1 extra rank bonus for each rank beyond the first, of 5 models to max +3. IN COMBAT. it does not mention this applies to magic, shooting or psych tests.

Therefore SiN doesn't apply to magic, shooting or psychology.

If you saying the rank bonus exists only in the rules for combat, then SiN is only going to apply in combat because "rank bonus" doesn't appear in the rulebook outside of combat. And in combat it's clearly capped to +3.

So, you want to keep arguing this?

Feefait
16-03-2010, 05:06
That's because we like to argue :p

hehe yeah pretty much. i always played the +3 but in discussing with another Skaven player over the weekend this came up. we both agree dit was +3 but the more I thought about it the more I saw both sides. Now that I've been playing devils advocate I am seeing it more and more.

I dont mind the +3. works for me - skaven shouldnt have a 10. But hopefully 8th will clear up any possible other interpretation lol

Kalandros
16-03-2010, 07:49
But there currently aren't any other interpretation possible unless you make stuff up - the rules are clear that it is a max of +3 for the rules on Rank Bonus, it doesn't matter when it applies, the max is always +3.

Dantès
16-03-2010, 07:58
If this is the case (works with what the rank bonus would be, but isn't in fact a rank bonus) that means they get the + to their LD even when fleeing or flank charged. I've always played it as you get it when you normally would get the rank bonus, and when you are unengaged. As in turn 1 I get shot, forced panic, I roll on LD 8. Turn 2 I charge a unit, lose combat, roll on LD8. Turn three I receive a flank charge, my rank bonus is negated, roll on LD5. Seemed to make sense at the time, but since the general interpretation is that it only uses the rank bonus as the template, not the rule, that this is not the case and they get the + at all times as long as the unit has those ranks.

Hopefully this will keep my rats around a bit longer :p

Tarliyn
16-03-2010, 08:18
To above, go check your book, you loose the bonus when fleeing or when you ranks are negated. It is written under the sin rule section.

Dantès
16-03-2010, 09:46
To above, go check your book, you loose the bonus when fleeing or when you ranks are negated. It is written under the sin rule section.

Haven't had my book with me for a few days now, but I've been playing it right, was just wishing for that not to be the case...

Damn...:p

Cambion Daystar
16-03-2010, 10:21
The "no rank bonus when fleeing" is kinda painful for skaven :)

Whaagnomore
16-03-2010, 11:22
The "no rank bonus when fleeing" is kinda painful for skaven :)

Slaves arent dirt-cheap for nothing :p

T10
16-03-2010, 11:29
They should do alright with an Ld 8 general and a musician.

-T10

Spinocus
16-03-2010, 15:56
They should do alright with an Ld 8 general and a musician.

-T10

Yeah, they should... were it not for the fact that there is only one Skaven character who possesses Ld 8 that is allowed to be general... Queek Headtaker. Beyond Queek only Deathmaster Snikch and the Verminlord possess Ld 8 and neither of them are allowed to be general, let alone pass on their leadership. For most lists Ld 7 is the best a Skaven general can do.

punkoteloco
16-03-2010, 16:03
Ld7 of a warlord or seer +1 for having a musician in the unit. making a total of 8.

Spinocus
16-03-2010, 16:23
Ld7 of a warlord or seer +1 for having a musician in the unit. making a total of 8.

Right, but those variables don't make for a Ld 8 general, only a situation where the final Ld value comes to 8. The language of T10's post leads me to believe he either mistyped the Ld value or forgot that most Skaven Lords are Ld 7.

King_Pash
17-03-2010, 00:26
Reading through the SiN rule and the Skaven FAQ, it can be argued that Skaven that are out of combat do not gain any rank bonus to their leadership (therefore using the General's as the max possible).

Also, the General Leadership is not modified by the unit he is in for the purpose of passing it onto neighbouring units e.g. a usual Skaven General has a Leadership of 6 or 7. This is the base figure that can be used by units with SiN rule.

So what's the general concensus - do Skaven get their basic Leadership (General's if he's in range) like the rest of us or do they gain their rank bonus out of combat?

Necromancy Black
17-03-2010, 00:31
Quick question, as I don't have a skaven book at hand.

Does SiN numbers say anything about the general's leadership? Does it say that when using the general's leadership you can add the rank bonus? Because if it doesn't you wouldn't be able to use the general's leadership with his units SiN, as you can only add SiN to your leadership tests (it doesn't actually change your leadership)

Ultimate Life Form
17-03-2010, 00:37
General provides his Ld, then the units add their rank bonus. It's always been that way.

Though I'm sure someone will find a way to dispute that even though it's stated clearly in an unambiguous fashion.

Crovax20
17-03-2010, 10:16
I always just assumed that they would get + leadership as long as the unit had ranks...
Does the book say they may add their rank bonus to their leadership or that they may add up to 3 ranks to their leadership?

I think the writer probably meant getting the + to their leadership even when not in combat, seeing it doesn't make sense to suddenly have more leadership in combat than when you get shot at.

Feefait
17-03-2010, 12:46
Book now says rank bonus and has dropped the +3 line. At least in US edition as we have seen it seems aly-language editions are sometimes more complete.

King_Pash
17-03-2010, 14:25
"Strength in Numbers: ..To calculate the Leadership of a unit with the Strength in Numbers rule, first determine the unit's Leadership as normal and then add the rank bonus of the unit to this value, up to a maximum Leadership of 10."

It then goes on to continue that General's Leadership (not his own unit's rank bonus) can be used as a base THEN add rank bonus to Leadership value.

P.S. Are US editions any different to UK editions? You guys have a different language or something?.. :P

theunwantedbeing
17-03-2010, 14:39
Simple enough.
Units calculate leadership like everyone else
-generals if within 12" of him
-character's if joined by one
-their own
Then strength in numbers kicks in to boost the leadership by upto their current rank bonus (which is anything from 0 to 3)

Obviously its not just while in combat as they point out that fleeing units dont generate a rank bonus, nor do they use any examples where a unit is actually in combat.

It's just not the most well worded thing, as the designers are presumably overly familiar with what they want the rule to be, so worded it clear enough for them but not clear enough for those who are completely unfamiliar with the rules.

therat
17-03-2010, 15:37
Simple enough.
Units calculate leadership like everyone else
-generals if within 12" of him
-character's if joined by one
-their own
Then strength in numbers kicks in to boost the leadership by upto their current rank bonus (which is anything from 0 to 3)

Obviously its not just while in combat as they point out that fleeing units dont generate a rank bonus, nor do they use any examples where a unit is actually in combat.

It's just not the most well worded thing, as the designers are presumably overly familiar with what they want the rule to be, so worded it clear enough for them but not clear enough for those who are completely unfamiliar with the rules.

This is what I was about to say. The rule also notes that SiN can be used for "any leadership-based test," further emphasizing its use outside combat.

It does indeed cap at 3 because it refers to rank bonus, not just ranks. That is the distinction.

punkoteloco
17-03-2010, 17:54
I dont know why this thread even started. I mean, we are discussing one of the oldest rules for skavens and the one that hasnt changed since 5ed. And its clear enough to understand it. It works as theunwantedbeing said.

Sooty13
18-03-2010, 07:40
I dont know why this is so hard. Page 33, current edition of the Skaven army book. It says "All skaven units add there CURRENT rank bonus to there leadership for ANY leaderships test" It then tell you how to work it out. "To calculate the leadership using the Strength in Numbers rule, determin the units leadership as normal then add the rank bonus up to LD10" then there is an example. to save reprinting you need to look at the combat section of the rule book to determin the rules for Rank Bonus. The Skaven can use this bonus for ANY leadership test, not just break tests. its says this in the book in black and white. it also says when you loose them. So if a unit with in 12" of the general has 3 or more ranks of 5 models after the front rank (that 4+ ranks) it is leadership 10. if tihs unit fails a test and flees after suffering no casulaties (say a magical panic attack) it will attempt to Rally at LD 8 if still with in the rang of a LD7 general. (you get +1LD for the musician). please stop trying to find problems where isnt any.

TheDarkDaff
18-03-2010, 23:19
I dont know why this is so hard. Page 33, current edition of the Skaven army book. It says "All skaven units add there CURRENT rank bonus to there leadership for ANY leaderships test" It then tell you how to work it out. "To calculate the leadership using the Strength in Numbers rule, determin the units leadership as normal then add the rank bonus up to LD10" then there is an example. to save reprinting you need to look at the combat section of the rule book to determin the rules for Rank Bonus. The Skaven can use this bonus for ANY leadership test, not just break tests. its says this in the book in black and white. it also says when you loose them. So if a unit with in 12" of the general has 3 or more ranks of 5 models after the front rank (that 4+ ranks) it is leadership 10. if tihs unit fails a test and flees after suffering no casulaties (say a magical panic attack) it will attempt to Rally at LD 8 if still with in the rang of a LD7 general. (you get +1LD for the musician). please stop trying to find problems where isnt any.

We are all aware of how it should work (RAI), but we are argueing what it actually says (or RAW). How a look at the way Rank Bonus is calculated and you will find the problem. Rank bonus is calculated "at the start of combat" and lasts for that combat phase. At any other time a unit's rank bonus is 0 according to the RAW reading. This doesn't break the SiN rule as you can add 0 to pretty much anything.

So what we have is a rule refering you to use a value outside of combat that only ever exists in combat. We also can't use that garbage throw away line of "that is how it has always been" as the rules have changed between editions (even if it is only by reference). Or i you suggesting i can use 1st Ed rules because "that is how they have always been played" and ignore the current rules.

I believe TUB has hit the nail on the head when he said the author knew what he wanted to say but didn't think it through. It is alsways bound to happen when they start referencing other rules that don't work the way they think they do due to a quirk of the wording.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-03-2010, 10:37
There can really be no way to argue how this works, TheDarkDaff. Rank bonus is usually calculated at the start of a combat. In the case of Skaven, it is calculated whenever you make a leadership-based test. This is clearly spelled out.

We do not have "a rule refering you to use a value outside of combat that only ever exists in combat." We have a rule that instructs Skaven players to add their current rank bonus to their Ld value for any Ld-based test. All you need to do is to find out what your rank bonus is. Whether you are in combat or not is completely meaningless when a rule tells you to use the same "mechanic", ie a simple addition, in another situation.

Sooty13
19-03-2010, 15:54
i get the moaning bit and that rule editions change. but as is explained it says to use the rank bonus for any leadership test in the new skaven book as well as all the others. if we all know how it is supposed to work then why the problems? hmm Devils *Advicate me thinks