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View Full Version : Sanguinor Compared to Mephiston



Godzooky
24-03-2010, 12:49
Hi all,

I note with interest the Sanguinor did pretty well in the latest WD battle report (granted, it is just a nifty piece of new-toy marketing, so he's hardly going down to the Star Trek security officer token foes), flooring a daemon prince, then working as part of a team to beat Abby down.

Previously old Mephy held the undisputed title of official BA-dass.

Not knowing the stats for the new kid on the block, is there a new alpha dog now strutting Baal?

Znail
24-03-2010, 13:05
Mephiston is deffinitly more BA-dass, but Sanguinor has more utility outside of assaults and isnt countered by anti-psyker gear.

pom134
24-03-2010, 13:25
Mephiston is overpriced. He doesn't have an invulnerable save or a squad so my standard CSM squad can dual melta for 2 wounds then grind him out with their powerfist.

He's good don't get me wrong but I think he could be 50 points less.

Joshwow1
24-03-2010, 13:28
Pom that's also considering you hit both melta shots, and you get the charge off, and hit all of your power fist attacks.

Otherwise Mephiston would steam roll that squad, or practically almost anything outside of a land raider/monolith actually.

LususNaturae
24-03-2010, 13:38
Mr. Mistoffelees is actually quite pathitic. I'll take space Jesus over him any day. Here's the rundown I gave nid players over at Warpshadow:



While Mr. Mistoffelees is the latest SM love-child conceived by that illiterate **** Matt Ward, I don't think I'll have a problem with facing him. The main reason for this is Mistoffelees's lack of IC status. Let's give him a run down:

Mobility

Mr. Mistoffelees can fly. Oh but wait! He has to cast a psychic power to do so. Shadow in the Warp can slow him down, dramatically reducing his threat range to basically that Synapse creature.

Strength
Mr Mistoffelees has S10!!!! Ah, but wait...more Psychics needed!!! Again, Shadow in the Warp is our friend

Initiative
His is good. Lash Whips make it not so good.


Weapon Skill
His is good. Paroxysm makes it not so good. Note that this is not 100% reliable, as his Psychic Hood will defend him from this.

Armor
2+ Save is nice. But, we Tyranids have plenty of things to get around that.

Wounds
As many as the Swarmlord.

Invulnerable
Uh-oh... Mr. Mistoffolees may be in some trouble now. NO Invulnerable save of any sort. Even if he uses Force Barrier (which I'm not sure if he has this power), SitW means he's taking it on 3D6.

Eternal Warrior
Another weakness! And look! Tyranids have more common access to weapons that cause ID to T6 than any other army - Mr. Mistoffolees, fear the mighty Bonesword! Fear the sinister Implant Attack!

Bottom Line
Mistoffolees the Mighty is nothing more than an overcosted Daemon Prince with no Inv, no EW, and no Lash - heck, his wings don't even work 100% of the time! If I take on this man, I am very confident that a HT can go toe to toe with this guy and come out on top.

A HT with LW/BS, Scytals, and Implant Attack has a 15% average chance per attack of shoving this guy's face into the dirt with an Instant Death before he even strikes.* That's not counting if you just slam him with enough wounds to bring him down.

The Swarmlord? Mano a mano, it'll be a close fight, because Meph will get the strike first. However, if there is even one Guard with a Lash Whip along for the ride, the Swarmlord will eat him for breakfast.

I would show you the numbers, but I don't know how to attach a spreadsheet.

*This calculation was done because I think Misoffolees has WS7. If he's WS 8, it becomes 11% per attack. Needless to say, it stays at 15% if you land Paroxysm on the Vamp.

The main issue is what i named in the bottom line paragraph: he's an overpriced, less powerful daemon prince.

The lack of IC status, EW, and an Invul hamstring Mr. Mistofelees. While 'nids have an easier time against him due to bonesword/lash whip/implant attack, other things he fears include:

-melta
-plasma
-exorcists
-rending
-force weapons
-wraithguard cannons
-d cannons
-nemesis force weapons
-TH/SS terms
-C'tan
-daemon princes with warp time
-Archons with agonizers (lol these will cut his balls off. Go old codex go!)
-dark lance spam
-multple fireknife suits
-khan
-anything I forgot with a invul of 4+ or better and a high S armor ignoring attack.

Wicksy
24-03-2010, 13:40
That and Mephiston would be in a unit taking all them lovely melta shots away from him. Plus couldnt you just cleverly place Meph in combat so that he is not near any powerfists? I may be wrong but i thought you could only target IC's in base to base contact? I'd be happy to slaughter my way through the scruds then hope to get the superior combat resolution and run them down.

Megad00mer
24-03-2010, 13:42
That and Mephiston would be in a unit taking all them lovely melta shots away from him. Plus couldnt you just cleverly place Meph in combat so that he is not near any powerfists? I may be wrong but i thought you could only target IC's in base to base contact? I'd be happy to slaughter my way through the scruds then hope to get the superior combat resolution and run them down.

Meph isn't an Independant Character.

Wicksy
24-03-2010, 13:49
Eh? Is he a squad upgrade then or something?

I seem to be the only person not to have seen the new codex....

Megad00mer
24-03-2010, 13:51
Eh? Is he a squad upgrade then or something?

I seem to be the only person not to have seen the new codex....

He's simply a unit of 1. He can't join squads. He does have the stats of a Monstrous Creature however.

Mannimarco
24-03-2010, 13:53
which means the best way to deal with him is to concentrate anit tank firpower on him, just feels wierd relying on anti tank to kill 1 marine but oh well

LususNaturae
24-03-2010, 13:54
Agreed, Sanguinor isn't that great for his cost either, but he's better than Mistee.

Wicksy
24-03-2010, 13:55
Hmmmm, i can see why GW did that i suppose.....

Still, it means for ***** and giggles i can charge him toward a unit of 50 imperial guardsmen to see what would happen!

LususNaturae
24-03-2010, 13:57
which means the best way to deal with him is to concentrate anit tank firpower on him, just feels wierd relying on anti tank to kill 1 marine but oh well

That's because he's a wannabe MC. Pretend he's a greater daemon, daemon prince, or hive tyrant and you'll understand, and discover how easy he is to drop.

Wicksy
24-03-2010, 14:03
From the sounds of it, you want to use him as a second wave in an assault. You send your BA assault squad off with Meph tottling along behind in a rhino, razorback or somesuch. The assault squad hits then you follow up with Meph..... Otherwise your opponents will be using him for target practise.

DrMabutu
24-03-2010, 14:08
I much prefer Sanguinor due to his survivability. Mepohiston's stats are nice but as people have been saying (And from my own experience, from killing him with massed lasguns) no invulnerable save and the fact he has to slog it on his own means he just doesn't get his points back.

Sanguinor on the other hand may have less wounds and a lower toughness, he has a 3+ invulnerable save which goes a long way (That and a garanteed jump pack each turn, just in case the enemy has anti-psychic stuff).

I do wish that Sanguinor could have been able to join some kind of unit, like the Sanguinary Guard.

Megad00mer
24-03-2010, 14:08
Meph also has no Invulnerable Save either. A 2+ is nice but there's plenty of AP2 or better weapons out there along with power weapon attacks.

Suddenly I feel a lot better about my Hive Tyrant and his Tyrant Guard. Yeah, he may be squishy but at least he can be protected.

And did I read right? Meph has no Eternal Warrior or Feel No Pain? :wtf:

LususNaturae
24-03-2010, 14:13
Meph also has no Invulnerable Save either. A 2+ is nice but there's plenty of AP2 or better weapons out there along with power weapon attacks.

Suddenly I feel a lot better about my Hive Tyrant and his Tyrant Guard. Yeah, he may be squishy but at least he can be protected.

And did I read right? Meph has no Eternal Warrior or Feel No Pain? :wtf:

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

If you look at my above post, a Hive Tyrant with LW/BS, Scytals, and IA has a 15% chance per attack to instant death the mega vamp. Down, boy!

Megad00mer
24-03-2010, 14:17
Yes, Yes, and Yes.

If you look at my above post, a Hive Tyrant with LW/BS, Scytals, and IA has a 15% chance per attack to instant death the mega vamp. Down, boy!

Wow...just wow..

*hugs his Hive Tyrant close*

Cpt_Baughan
24-03-2010, 15:11
I think most of the BA special characters seem at initial glance to be overpriced although time will tell on that and I also believe most of the SW special characters where as well which I find odd as G/W seemed to be having push to get these characters used.

The Battle Report (or any WD battle report for that matter) should really be taken with a dumpster truck load of salt when it comes to assessing the merits of new characters.

It is a near enough redundant academic set off figures however showing how 1 setup or 1 unit in 1 army can handle a particular unit. If anything it only serves to highlight how nearly ever other unit in ever other situation couldn’t, the simply fact is certain units are better at or even designed to take on certainly opponents better than others.

I applaud working out the complex chain of probabilities to come to that figure however, there are an awful lot of variables, well done.

To sum up I think Meth should keep the BA-dass title even though the Sanguinor is also a nasty but equally overprices prospect.

Egaeus
24-03-2010, 16:00
I think most of the BA special characters seem at initial glance to be overpriced although time will tell on that and I also believe most of the SW special characters where as well which I find odd as G/W seemed to be having push to get these characters used.

Personally, I rather like it if they are indeed once again relegating "Special Characters" to that status. IIRC in 3rd that's how they were as well...slighly overpriced in most cases but gave you some nifty rules that you couldn't get elsewhere. Of course back then they were specfically "opponent's consent" and most people were wary of giving that consent mostly because the SCs were "different" (at least that's the way I've always seen it). I sort of despised the 5th edition Marine Codex where "Special Characters" suddenly became "stock" characters where nearly every army has at least one, as in many cases they are actually much more cost-effective and have better rules than you can get with a standard HQ option.

Shamutanti
24-03-2010, 17:07
The Battle Report (or any WD battle report for that matter) should really be taken with a dumpster truck load of salt when it comes to assessing the merits of new characters.


Agreed.

Doesn't he kill Abaddon in a 1 on 1 duel... >_>

Godzooky
24-03-2010, 17:13
Agreed.

Doesn't he kill Abaddon in a 1 on 1 duel... >_>

Lemartes and others had already been tucking into Abaddon before the Sanguinor arrived to give him the Michael Bay treatment.

Matthias Thulmann
24-03-2010, 18:22
Talking about the battle report it shows sanguinor ain't great one on one with mcs. That daemon prince was basically 100 points less and got him down to one wound with little effort!!!

LKHERO
24-03-2010, 20:36
They function differently.. so you can't really compare them directly.
Sanguinor is an army buffer whereas Mephiston is a 1-man army.

bignbadbum
24-03-2010, 20:57
I think Mephiston is a tad better then some of you guys are giving him credit for. I agree in any army with hoods or anti-psycic capabilities he'll have some trouble, but against Guard, Orks, and Chaos I think he'll be pretty strong. If your worried about him getting shot up his model shouldn't be to hard to hide out of LoS behind a vechicle or in terrain or behind a squad of marines to give him a +4 cover.

LKHERO
24-03-2010, 23:43
If Mephiston's getting shot up without a cover save, you've done something wrong.

Gaargod
25-03-2010, 00:16
Indeed.

Realistically, the way to use him is to hide him behind tanks, then jump out and yell suprise at squads which need to die. He's actually fairly vicious against nid MCs - his Ld10 force weapon against the poor bugs with no invul means, short of him dying to a bonesword before getting to it, he ripshreds them. If the new non eternal warrior MCs/SCs are a trend, expect him to get better. As noted, swarmlord with a tyrant guard+whip = dead mephiston, pretty much every time.

Currently, only orks, necrons, tau and chaos have no sort of psychic defense- seeing as dark eldar have so many ways to screw over psykers (guard get inquis psychic hoods. No more allies will screw them over too), and i'd bet on them getting something too when they come out. Psychic powers are the new thing, so most people take defenses.

Then again, about the same price gets you 10 AsM with 2 meltas, a powerfist and the rhino to ride them in. I know which one i'd take.

LKHERO
25-03-2010, 00:30
Or two Librarians on Jump Packs to go with your other units.

Epicenter
25-03-2010, 00:53
Beyond all the hyperbole, while I do think that Mephiston is a tad overpriced, I don't think he's nearly as bad as everyone says. It's true he does get shut down by armies that can impair/shut down the BA player's psychic phase (Eldar, Tyranids, and the =I= codex hoods). While other armies make Mephiston-use more problematic (the newer Psychic Hoods/Rune Weapons).

The guy doesn't have EW, but he has a high enough Toughness that he doesn't have to worry about ID from double-toughness weaponry for the most part.

Yes, he does have to worry about the force weapon ID effect (and similar effects) but in my experience, having such a weapon in your army and getting the wielder alive to his (or her) perfect target isn't the easy thing that most people on Warseer make it sound. I haven't looked at the Tyranid codex too closely; perhaps they can spam non-strength ID effects, but the majority of 40k cannot spam them. You're looking at one or maybe two Force Weapons in an army, but most often zero.

If someone finds the points to put a Force Weapon into their army, get the wielder up to Mephiston successfully, CC Mephiston, score a wound (remember Toughness - most Force Weapon wielders don't have average Strength), then use the force weapon effect to kill the guy, they deserve the kill and the BA player deserves to lose Mephiston for letting them.

Hellebore
25-03-2010, 02:34
You know, I think I actually want Mephiston MORE powerful but statistically less insane.

ie, I think he should have IC status and a 4+ invulnerable save and the following profile:
WS6 BS5 S5 T5 W4 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv2+

Whilst not as statswise badass as he is now, he would probably PLAY better. But the above also fulfills my requirement that he not have stupid DBZ stats.

See, I don't hate powerful marines, I just don't like them ignoring stat progression and internal consistency. And they become more powerful when they DO follow internal consistency.

The T6 W5 is entirely to try and combat the downside of him not having an invulnerable save or EW.

Hellebore

MEPHISTONSRAGE
25-03-2010, 04:09
Mephiston is a bad man, no matter how you cut it. If he gets caught out to massed fire, then yes, he will die. If he runs into a swarmlord, yeah, he might have a problem.
But T6 is not easy to wound even to bolters, and if you are shooting lascannons and Multi-meltas at him, then you probably aren't shooting at other things that are rolloing towards you ready to jump out and kick your teeth in.
What I do like about what I hear in all of this, is that some people aren't fearful, and whining about how OP he is going to be. There are tactics to deal with anything.
I remember people complaining about wraithlords and their toughness 8.
You just have to shoot some things, feed others a squad, or distract with something shiney but durable or expendable.
I'm looking forward to playing with Mephiston and seeing just how he plays, and how people are going to try and possibly shut him down.
Currently, Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf is the resident beast at our club. He is hard to deal with, even with all of the massed fire.
Can't wait to put Mephiston in his path! :P

Balerion
25-03-2010, 05:58
See, I don't hate powerful marines, I just don't like them ignoring stat progression and internal consistency. And they become more powerful when they DO follow internal consistency.

The Tyranid codex suggested to me that internal consistency in stats is no longer a conscious concern of the codex writers. That book was all over the place -- small bugs with higher toughness than larger bugs, scrawny support monsters with more wounds than beefy shock-assault ones, top tier synapse creatures with lower BS than guardian drones, etc.

It seems like stats are now intended to be ingredients in an overall power level rather than representations of the specific abilities of a unit in comparison to other similar or allied units.

Havock
25-03-2010, 06:41
Mephiston is overpriced. He doesn't have an invulnerable save or a squad so my standard CSM squad can dual melta for 2 wounds then grind him out with their powerfist.

He's good don't get me wrong but I think he could be 50 points less.

What, your opponent let him sit alone in front of powerfists and meltaguns?

LususNaturae
25-03-2010, 13:28
What, your opponent let him sit alone in front of powerfists and meltaguns?

Or maybe he dropped a squad of Fire Dragons in Mistoffelees's face?

Yea, you can maneuver Mistee to try and avoid the things that will kill him. But so many people who say that forget that your opponent is trying to maneuver so that he can kill him. And, in this day of Mech spam, chances are your opponent will get what he wants, so inherent defense (Inv, EW, IC) is much more important that being able to hide.

When I play against BA, whether it be with Nids or Eldar, I am not going to let my opponent 'hide him behind a rhino' till he can charge. There's no denying that Mistee will wreck havoc on me if he gets close, and I'm going to do everything in my power to stop him.

Usopreme
25-03-2010, 16:55
I think people are forgetting points costs (not everyone just a few). Swarmlord with guard cost almost twice as much as mephiston so I would hope they would kill him. Th/SS termies in a land raider also cost twice as much.
Few things for the cost of a base landraider can go toe to toe with him.

On topic both are cool and as hero pointed out both have their own roles. Point mephiston in a direction and let him kill stuff or have the sanguinor buff your assault troops while cutting up HQs.

gwarsh41
25-03-2010, 16:58
hmm, I wonder if a lonewolf with storm shield and a lightening claw could take out mephisto. I have had lone wolves are made to kill monstrous creatures after all.
A lone wolf seeming to be the polar opposite of this argument. Getting EW, and FNP for 20 pt, a 3++ for an additional 20pm or so as well.

LususNaturae
25-03-2010, 17:12
hmm, I wonder if a lonewolf with storm shield and a lightening claw could take out mephisto. I have had lone wolves are made to kill monstrous creatures after all.
A lone wolf seeming to be the polar opposite of this argument. Getting EW, and FNP for 20 pt, a 3++ for an additional 20pm or so as well.

Ha!
Lone Wolf, Termie Armor, Storm Shield, and Pfist/Lightning Claw.

Should put up a great fight for about a third the cost :p

ghoulio
25-03-2010, 17:39
Mephiston is overpriced. He doesn't have an invulnerable save or a squad so my standard CSM squad can dual melta for 2 wounds then grind him out with their powerfist.

He's good don't get me wrong but I think he could be 50 points less.

Seriously? He has basically the same stat line as the swarm lord (2 less WS, but 1 more Init and attack due to having 2 weapons) except he can move 12", is on a small base (so super easy to hide), can be str 10 in combat and has a 2+ armor save (swarmlord has only 3+) all for 30pts less. You can also keep him near a sanquinary priest for feel no pain, which on this guy would make him immune to everything that isnt ap 2 or better or power weapons. His cost is appropriate for what he does.