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VonUber
27-03-2010, 06:34
Hey, Recently I played a game where I didn't use any magic items, And I was shocked how affective it is. So I'm trying It again at a larger game (2.5 instead of 2.0)

I'm curious if anyone else has tried a "mundane list"

This is the list I will be using.

Dread lord with a great weapon, heavy armour and sea dragon cloak.
Sorceress (level 1)
Master with lance, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield and mounted on a manticore & BSB.
3units of 5xDark Riders with repeater crossbows
18xBlack Guard with full command
18xExecutioners with full command
15xShades With Additional Close combat weapons
6xKnights with Full command
Hydra
2 Reaper Bolt throwers
Assassin With Additional Close Combat Weapon.
Its only 2350points so I have some points left to play with.

Im thinking of droping 1 of the 18 black guard and adding a unit of 20 spearmen.

KalEf
27-03-2010, 06:41
no magic Items at 2000pts :eek: Weather it turns out well or not, you get an A+ for sportsmanship!

VonUber
27-03-2010, 06:48
no magic Items at 2000pts :eek: Weather it turns out well or not, you get an A+ for sportsmanship!

I did it at 2k already vs a vampire spam cast army. Still won with a SV due to superior tactics. Was fun:)
2.5 Is the next one... then 3k... maybe even 5k with no magic items and just level 1s for dispel dice.

Condottiere
27-03-2010, 07:04
Depends on how effective your basic units are and what you're facing. Against any opponent who has partial immunity to mundane weapons, it's probably suicide.

Ultimate Life Form
27-03-2010, 07:06
Care to elaborate what you mean by 'affective'?

But yes, the idea is good. Actually taking Magic Items feels like cheating to me most of the time anyway, and depending on the army you may actually get more buff if you take none. In a Skaven army, foregoing a Hero's 50 points allowance means another block of Slaves, which is usually more efficient than making the Character slightly more killy or survivable (but still sucking against... well, pretty much everything). That's basically what I'm doing.

Condottiere
27-03-2010, 07:26
Effective in this sense meaning troops capable of being able to do the jobs that magic equipped characters are usually supposed to do.

High toughness units could be handled by high strength units, but how many have access to strength 7? Hordes could be handled by dual plus attacks units. It's having access to units with these capabilities and at a reasonable cost that may decide if this strategy can be effectively carried out.

Tae
27-03-2010, 08:19
I have a feeling Lizardmen could do some very effective no-MI lists.

1 Frog, 2 Stegs, etc.

And if it was a mutual no-MI game then they're even better off with a lack of dispell scrolls the Frog can really unleash - which would be only only real issue if I was using the OP list - only having 3 dispell dice.

BigRob
27-03-2010, 08:44
I've played some no magic games and it made for a much more exciting game as there were no nasty surprises, it was down to movement and co-ordination.

We played using Empire, Woodelves, Skaven, Lizardmen, Dwarves and Orcs and Goblins back in 6th edition and it worked well. The Dwarves and Empire didn't dominate as much as we had thought they would and the Lizardmen were very scary as all the points usually sunk into the slann were eaten up by the oldbloods on Carnosaur and his buddies who ripped though the Imperial infantry line before meeting Mr Helblaster.

Gives you a change to experiment a bit because you don't have to take wizards, scrollcaddies, the "essential must have" items and the other tat you normally try your best to squeeze in.

Urgat
27-03-2010, 08:52
Hey, Recently I played a game where I didn't use any magic items, And I was shocked how affective it is. So I'm trying It again at a larger game (2.5 instead of 2.0)

I'm curious if anyone else has tried a "mundane list"

My lists are usually pretty mundane, the only things I usually take are the staff of sorcery and the staff of sneaky stealing. My gobs being gobs, there's little point in tooling them up for combat and, my gobs being gobs, they can't take magic banners. Sometimes I make an exception and take a bsb with spider banner, though, if I know I'm going to face large gribblies. That's pretty much it.


Depends on how effective your basic units are and what you're facing. Against any opponent who has partial immunity to mundane weapons, it's probably suicide.

I used to often face a VC army with ethereal units (not so much anymore), and yeah, they're an atrocious pain in the bottom, but, like everything else, you have to live with it.

Nocculum
27-03-2010, 11:16
I would never play without magic items entirely, but certainly, there is just as much to be gained from reducing item allotment than dropping them entirely.

If you only take half the allowance on 4 characters, that's 125 points spare already, the same goes for unit item allowance and additional war-gear; take only and expressively what you need, the extra points for units or unit size will be more often than not a clincher.

BigbyWolf
27-03-2010, 12:04
I would never play without magic items entirely, but certainly, there is just as much to be gained from reducing item allotment than dropping them entirely.

If you only take half the allowance on 4 characters, that's 125 points spare already, the same goes for unit item allowance and additional war-gear; take only and expressively what you need, the extra points for units or unit size will be more often than not a clincher.

Or play like most DoW armies do these days and just use the common items. If you give a hero a 5 point Biting Blade, BAM! 3 magical attacks!

Condottiere
27-03-2010, 12:35
That's not really a choice, that's a fact of life.

BigbyWolf
27-03-2010, 12:45
That's not really a choice, that's a fact of life.

But surely you chose to play DoW? ;)

danny-d-b
27-03-2010, 13:35
I've had a firend run a very succsess full dwarf horad with 0 runes

you see the look on people faces when someone drops down more dwarfs warriors than modles!

Condottiere
27-03-2010, 14:19
But surely you chose to play DoW? ;)That's because the others don't measure up.

Commodus Leitdorf
27-03-2010, 16:17
Would be interesting to have a go at it....I could slap together a decent Empire list with it.

I may just have a go at it...should be fun!

VonUber
27-03-2010, 17:01
Well the idea is to take my none magic item army vs a regular army with magic items and such. And see how well I do. I think I will outnomber >< and i think I can out move them and get into position allot sooner and have more "bait" and "speed bumps" than I normaly do.

Tarliyn
27-03-2010, 17:38
I have played some games were we both agreed upon not using magic items.

I have also played some games where we both agreed upon only common items.

I have also played some games where we both agreed upon no mages.

I have also played some games where we both agreed upon no magic what so ever, wizards or items.

All of these different play types were fun in different ways. Sometimes it is just nice not to have to worry about characters of doom or silly spells that kill entire units.

I have never played a game though where I had no magic items and my opponent did. I have played games where the amount of magic items my opponent had was double or more than the ones I had (mainly cause I try not to sink to many points into characters).

Kevlar
27-03-2010, 17:51
Care to elaborate what you mean by 'affective'?

But yes, the idea is good. Actually taking Magic Items feels like cheating to me most of the time anyway, and depending on the army you may actually get more buff if you take none. In a Skaven army, foregoing a Hero's 50 points allowance means another block of Slaves, which is usually more efficient than making the Character slightly more killy or survivable (but still sucking against... well, pretty much everything). That's basically what I'm doing.

Skaven do well without magic because so much of their mundane equipment has magical effects. Plague censers, jezzails, warpfire throwers, doomwheels....

Who needs magic?

Zarryiosiad
27-03-2010, 18:25
At the Lone Wolf Indy GT in Dallas this year, I fielded the following 2250 point WoC army:

Chaos Lord of Slaanesh
Mark of Slaanesh; Flail, mounted on a Chaos Steed

22 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh w/ full command
Mark of Slaanesh, Great Weapons, Light Armor, Shields

Exalted Hero of Slaanesh
Battle Standard Bearer, Mark of Slaanesh, mounted on a Chaos Steed
Flail, Shield

22 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh w/ full command
Mark of Slaanesh, Great Weapons, Light Armor, Shields

Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh
Level 2, Mark of Slaanesh, Mounted on a Chaos Chariot of Slaanesh

Chaos Sorcerer of Slaanesh
Level 2, Mark of Slaanesh, Mounted on a Chaos Chariot of Slaanesh

24 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh w/full command
Mark of Slaanesh, Great Weapons, Light Armor, Shields

24 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh w/full command
Mark of Slaanesh, Great Weapons, Light Armor, Shields

24 Chaos Marauders of Slaanesh w/full command
Mark of Slaanesh, Great Weapons, Light Armor, Shields

7 Chaos Warhounds w/Poisoned Attacks

7 Chaos Warhounds w/Poisoned Attacks

Chaos Warshrine of Slaanesh

Chaos Warshrine of Slaanesh

This army had no magic items in it at all, though I did have two Sorcerers, so there was at least some magic. I went into the tournament expecting to get completely demolished, but I ended up 16th overall, out of a field of either 94 or 96 players. The most surprising thing about the tournament is that I actually managed to win two games.

It's very satisfying to me to take a relatively weak army and somehow get it to work. And I know my opponents appreciated the opportunity to depopulate the Chaos wastes of scores of marauders. Would I have done better with magic items? Absolutely. But where's the fun in that?

Zarryiosiad

wolsey
27-03-2010, 20:53
My regular bretonian list has no magic items and no magic users and I usually do well with it. The amount of units both commoners and knights makes for an entertaining and challenging game with many tactical options.

Grymlok
27-03-2010, 21:15
I've played one, maybe two, games with no magic items. On one of those I took the largest beating I've ever suffered. Its so long ago now its vague (99 I think), but I remember that my Slann and TG took a hiding and I lost all my Saurus. I was playing a very knight heavy Bret force. I think there were 9 Grail Knights, and a LOT of Realm cans too, and I ok'd him using King Leon WITH his magic items, and he was too much. I had taken the lowest level Slann, and tried to get as much troops on the table as possible. It was still fun, and I was still learning to play FB and not 40k. I wish the Old Blood had been an option then!!

I'd do it again no problem, because it was so much easier not having to check my list every few minutes to remind myself who was equipped with what.

The Red Scourge
27-03-2010, 22:03
People easily forget that a simple thing as a scroll caddy can easily set you back 150 points, instead of just the 25 points/scroll. And when those points are invested in troops, you not only get more wounds to soak magical damage, but you can also use those points offensively.

That said, I really like having a super fighter on the table, to quote the song: 'I need a hero!' ;) Larger than life supermen is a part of epic fantasy battles, just as hydras and funky hamsterwheels, and some armies are very reliant on characters to deal with the most menial tasks, but I've learned that experimenting with 'restrictions' will give you a lot of insight into using the rest of your army optimally :)

Personal favorite heroes:

*The Decapitator* Wardancer Highborne able to take a charge and KB most things, short of a 'thirster, and then finish it off with a flamenco dance on the corpses.
*The Man of Steel* Just a jugger BSB, a simple hero that reliably generates 7-8 CR by himself - thats just insane!
*The Firefighter* VC Lord wielding the Flaming Sword of Rhuin with Red Fury - took 8 wounds off a STank in a single round of combat his last time on the field :p

Angelwing
27-03-2010, 22:36
In the last few games I played I frequently dumped wizards and magic items. My skaven did okay without anything magic and only a warlord and BSB. It's real problem was a lack of room to manoeuvre as I had so many units!
My chaos dwarfs have a couple of level 2 wizards and only a magic weapon and and suit of armour on my general. They do okay as well.
Both my undead armies stick with close to 2 magic users as well and I keep magic items limited.
I limit magic items because I tend to forget I have them during the battle. I limit wizards because it irks me that I'm 'forced' to spend points on wizards for some sort of magic defence, but they really achieve nothing. I figured that if they did nothing, why bother spending the points on them? The magic rules are one of my grievances with the current game. Here's hoping for a decent change in 8th.

Glabro
27-03-2010, 22:47
Realizing that the points allowances of characters are not there to be filled with stuff just because you can is elementary in Warhammer. A natural progression
from the baby steps of taking every shiny magic thing you can. The next step isreplacing redundant characters with more troops. Only the General and in many cases the BSB are really needed.

That said, some magic items are simply too good not to take. For example, Black Guard with or without the ASF banner are two completely different units.

Condottiere
28-03-2010, 04:48
People easily forget that a simple thing as a scroll caddy can easily set you back 150 points, instead of just the 25 points/scroll. And when those points are invested in troops, you not only get more wounds to soak magical damage, but you can also use those points offensively.

That said, I really like having a super fighter on the table, to quote the song: 'I need a hero!' ;) Larger than life supermen is a part of epic fantasy battles, just as hydras and funky hamsterwheels, and some armies are very reliant on characters to deal with the most menial tasks, but I've learned that experimenting with 'restrictions' will give you a lot of insight into using the rest of your army optimally :)

Personal favorite heroes:

*The Decapitator* Wardancer Highborne able to take a charge and KB most things, short of a 'thirster, and then finish it off with a flamenco dance on the corpses.
*The Man of Steel* Just a jugger BSB, a simple hero that reliably generates 7-8 CR by himself - thats just insane!
*The Firefighter* VC Lord wielding the Flaming Sword of Rhuin with Red Fury - took 8 wounds off a STank in a single round of combat his last time on the field :pAS with everything, it depends upon where you apply that arcane force. If your opponent has figured out that destroying a specific unit will allow him to split your army and win him the game, and that he first needs to weaken it so that his troops can successfully engage it, then those 150 points are well spent if it prevents him from doing so.

The Red Scourge
28-03-2010, 11:57
AS with everything, it depends upon where you apply that arcane force. If your opponent has figured out that destroying a specific unit will allow him to split your army and win him the game, and that he first needs to weaken it so that his troops can successfully engage it, then those 150 points are well spent if it prevents him from doing so.

150 points of caddy is never 'well spent'. It might be tactically sound, but theres nothing as boring as a caddy :p

KalEf
29-03-2010, 06:28
150 points of caddy is never 'well spent'. It might be tactically sound, but theres nothing as boring as a caddy :p

lol i still pretty much never leave home with out at least one... in fairness though, i play against a lot of vamps daemons and magic WoC

Condottiere
29-03-2010, 09:14
I've seen one Scroll Caddy come equipped with his own chariot; once he's outlived most of his usefulness, he goes into action.