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sir_shvantselot
27-03-2010, 19:35
13 Greatswords and a warrior priest.... What do you reckon?

In two ranks that's 6 greatswords and a warrior priest with great weapon with hatred getting two shots at hitting each combat and strength 5 when they do. they're stubborn and if you keep em near a battle standard and general leadership 9 with reroll...?

thoughts?

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 21:19
Hmm... as long as you don't expect too much of them I'd say it'd make a fine unit. They're not Swordmasters but they'll do their job. Wouldn't put a standard in there either, treat it like an expendable unit pretty much. It's a fairly interesting idea which I think would work best in an army supported by plenty of Shadow magic (Unseen Lurker to get the charge off). There are other things (namely Knights + WP) that would fulfill the role better, but it's a cool idea so I'd go with it for that.

ooglatjama
27-03-2010, 21:20
It would be good on a flank

snottlebocket
27-03-2010, 21:37
It works, just don't expect too much. Even if they all hit due to the hatred, that's still only 5 hits from the great swords. Won't be enough to win any combats on their own.

Bladelord
27-03-2010, 21:46
An Unseen Lurker flank charge & those hatred str 5 hits can win combats for you;)

snottlebocket
27-03-2010, 21:57
An Unseen Lurker flank charge & those hatred str 5 hits can win combats for you;)

Sure and if I cast plaguewind, roll and IR and then proceed to roll all 4+'s for every member of a unit, that entire unit will be wiped out!.

If you're going to stack up a lot of "if's" obviously it's going to perform great. Like I said, it works, just don't expect too much.

Rodman49
27-03-2010, 22:02
Warrior Priest with 5 or 6 IC Knights would be better in almost every conceivable way.

Also they only have Ld 8 Stubborn. If you use the Character's Leadership it is modified (unless you bring Banner of Sigismund in a unit).

sir_shvantselot
27-03-2010, 22:23
Warrior Priest with 5 or 6 IC Knights would be better in almost every conceivable way.

Also they only have Ld 8 Stubborn. If you use the Character's Leadership it is modified (unless you bring Banner of Sigismund in a unit).

On reflection, I agree. Was just thinking of way to use the models as I painted some but never use them.

Ozorik
28-03-2010, 00:03
If you're going to stack up a lot of "if's" obviously it's going to perform great.

Getting 1 spell off at a key time isn't quite the same thing though is it.

5 IC knights cost exactly the same as 13 greatswords and are more mobile, have a much better armour save and hit harder so, as a hammer, they are a better choice. If you want something that can hit fairly hard but still act as a decent speedbump then I'd go with the greatswords.

The knights would see more use but to be honest the greatswords wouldn't be that bad a unit although it is quite expensive and fragile.

ROCKY
28-03-2010, 05:43
to the original poster, they are stubborn on their leadership (8) unless they choose to take the leadership of the general (in which case they are not using their stubborn ld8 which is a very bad idea). only time this changes is if they are joined by a character who is stubborn and has a high leadership (ie, sigvald in a unit of chaos warriors stubborn leadership 10)

snottlebocket
28-03-2010, 06:43
Getting 1 spell off at a key time isn't quite the same thing though is it.

One spell, no. An important spell, on a unit in position to flank charge, who will then hopefully proceed to hit and wound with all it's attacks. Assuming the enemy left them alive that long, considering you can see that combo coming a mile away.

That it s a lot of if's. It's not like a handful of great swords is particularly hard to kill at range. A small group of t3 warriors with crappy armoursaves, that'll take a character with them if they happen to run. That's a nice target.

happy_doctor
28-03-2010, 21:33
I do not agree; greatswords are a fine buy if you're looking to combine the benefits of ranked infantry and hammer units. To illustrate what I want to say: the Inner Circle knight unit you people mentioned has more attacks, is faster and has a far better save than the greatswords, but it lacks ranks, numbers and -more importantly- detachments that can do all sorts of dangerous stuff. I find the obsession with speed a bit annoying, especially since we're talking about an army that outshoots and potentially outmagicks most opponents. People are going to be running straight towards you, so having a unit that can outnumber them, outfight them and outmaneuver them through clever use of detachments is far better than having a unit of hard-to-kill but not that hard-hitting knights.

My suggestion is to go for it, since greatswords have very characterful models, as opposed to the outdated plastic knights. Some adjustments:

-If you have the points, go for a unit of 18-20, they work very well, since they are essentially a unit of swordsmen (WS4, 4+ save) that can fight back and that is stubborn.

-Give your warrior priest the Icon of Magnus, there's nothing worse than losing your stubborn unit because of the auto-break from fear-causers rule. This is imperative when taking a smaller unit, such as the one you're debating, but is also useful when fielding larger formations.

-Get the unit some detachments!! I can't stress this point enough, playing empire without making use of this special rule is the equivalent of playing a bretonnian peasant army. 5-strong archer detachments are great for redirection and march-blocking, while swordsmen are the ideal combat detachment for the greatswords (since their armour save and high weaponskill means that even against tough opponents, you won't be giving away free kills). Depending on your style of play, you can even go for two combat detachments and have them do all the dirty work.

To sum things up, try the greatswords! Use them as you would use any other infantry block, with the added bonus of high strength attacks and stubborn.

Whistler
29-03-2010, 10:57
I''m liking this thread. I also started Empire a while ago, planning on doing a TVI style army and i'm also thinking of trying out Greatswords (24 + character with mandatory Icon of Magnus and detach). The opinions here and on other great warhammer fora seem to be 50/50 on them.

Here's my take on them ^^.

Pro's

* Stubborn
* High strength
* Nice models

Con's

* 4+ AS, wich is the same as a Swordsman in CC
* Always strike last, wich is almost allways so, GW or not
* One attack
* Swordsmen do almost the same for less points
* They seem to be made of gold, looking at the retail price :eyebrows:

Anyone want to add more pro's/con's, please do :D.

Rodman49
29-03-2010, 17:51
Yo, happy_d, did you get the memo?

Infantry are obsolete.


If you insist on using them this is how I would run them:
18 to 30 in size with BSB with Icon and Magnus and Armor of Meteoric Iron if it is available (otherwise Full Plate with Barded Warhorse). 5 archer detachment and 9 Swordsmen detachment. Now you have Stubborn 8, Immune to Fear, Re-roll Break Tests and two detachments.

Ozorik
29-03-2010, 19:12
If you insist on using them this is how I would run them:

Are we playing the same game? It would appear not. 8th ed is also supposed to increase the relative power of infantry and that's not all that far away.


That it s a lot of if's.

Not all that much to be honest, it certainly requires far less luck than your example.

Malorian
29-03-2010, 19:15
Yo, happy_d, did you get the memo?

Infantry are obsolete.

Probably not... my orcs burned the memo and killed the messanger :evilgrin:


Greatswords are a fine unit but at just 13 they risk being outnumbered by fear. You'll also want them bigger so they can take useful detachments.

VonUber
29-03-2010, 20:41
I wouldnt use the great weapons on them, There I3 right? at least this way you wont strike last, and your stuborn, let the charicter do the mashing and slashing. plus they have a 4+save? You can use this a real road block unit, give them a command so you have +1 to combat rez and you can throw your unit champion at what ever char comes your way. Ld8 with a re roll at stuborn is pretty sick (they cannot use the generals ld) or use the great weapons if the oponent unit is crappy weapon skill or has a better than 5+ save. I do the same thing with executioners when there next to a couldren. Works pretty well.

In my experiance units of 13 stuborn stuff get shot to bits. Or never see combat... unless your better than your oponent.

Also if your going to buy them, buy high elf metal sword masters and do a little conversion work on them, there way cheaper :) if im not mistaken swordmasters are 12 for 5? and great swords are 27 for 10? Also there 1 peace models so no need to spend ages gluing them. And there way quicker to paint (dry brush the black under coat with bolt gun, then chain mail, then mithril hight light, then talen flesh for skin with some wash then touch the cloth up with some brown)

Malorian
29-03-2010, 21:19
Also if your going to buy them, buy high elf metal sword masters and do a little conversion work on them, there way cheaper :) if im not mistaken swordmasters are 12 for 5? and great swords are 27 for 10? Also there 1 peace models so no need to spend ages gluing them. And there way quicker to paint (dry brush the black under coat with bolt gun, then chain mail, then mithril hight light, then talen flesh for skin with some wash then touch the cloth up with some brown)

So basically you are spending 24 rather than 27 for ten models and for this small saving you get:

-the wrong models
-metal models that you can't convert
-metal models that chip the paint off each time they bump each other


Hell you'd be better off converting other empire models to have those snack swords :p (http://thumb15.shutterstock.com.edgesuite.net/display_pic_with_logo/317077/317077,1253571340,40/stock-photo-three-plastic-swords-over-a-green-one-isolated-on-white-37470055.jpg)

nub5
29-03-2010, 22:10
As stated Greatswords are great empire infantry but in the grand scheme, they are not good. I either keep the 13 and use them on the flank somewhere or if you want the WP in there bulk them up to (very expensive) 25 man unit. Overall I think you would be served better by using the Knights mention above or 13 flagellants.

Clymer
30-03-2010, 22:44
I'll be in that 50% that says no. To make them work, they'll need a tooled up character, perhaps a magic banner and then one or more wizards committing to shadow magic where they have a slight chance of even getting the spell you need, or being able to cast it at the right time because a savvy opponent will wisely stop it going off. So really, you're investing over 200 points for the unit and detachments, plus 2 or more characters for a unit that is easy to kill, slow to get to combat, and when it does, can't really do much. Plus they take up an all important special slot that can be more effectively used for just about any of the other choices (don't know about the mortar... seems like I'd take GS first if I had no other choice.)

If you're really bent on an infantry hammer, than a unit of 20 flagellants is more like it. Unbreakable, more attacks, and doesn't need a character to get the same combat/psychology benefits. Also, the first unit of flagellants counts as core if you're taking a priest or lector. The one draw back is if they get into it against WS5 troops. But even then, The End Is Nigh should help work your way through them and their unbreakable should help them hold out until help arrives.

nub5
30-03-2010, 22:57
I'll be in that 50% that says no. To make them work, they'll need a tooled up character, perhaps a magic banner and .....<snip>


Oh no, now you forcing him to take a General as his lord choice. :p

Clymer
31-03-2010, 00:40
Perhaps... Or a BSB, who is a liability in his own right. ;)

If I'm playing a 3000+ point game, I'll often take the GoTE as the second lord choice and sometimes take a unit of great swords. If you see me with a unit of greatswords under 3000 points, it's a sure sign that I'm not serious about winning.