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Christian
29-03-2010, 12:04
Hi
I have a tournament coming up on the 1st and 2nd May and still do not have a good army list for it.

There are no special restrictions in this tournament. But still there is a small problem.
The tournament will have 28 players with around 23 cheezy lists (well most of the time it was like that). Last year I managed to get 16th, but this year it is my goal to get higher up.
So I ask if you could help me but an army list up, which could survive cheezy lists ( I think around 7-8 deamon lists, a lot of magic, death stars).

I have some suggestions myself but I will give a list of what models I have and what I can still buy, so that improvements can be made.

First Army list: the list I used in the last tournament.

Sorceress lvl 4: Sacrifice Dagger, Pearl of Infinite Bleackness, 2 Scrolls

Sorceress lvl 2: Focus Familiar, Scroll, Cold One

Master: Cold One, Shield, SDC, PoK, Sword of Might, Heavy Armour

Master BSB: Halberd, Heavy Armour, Shield, SDC

Assassin: ADW, RoK, Manbane

20 Dark Elf Warriors (go with Lvl 4)

10 RxB

10 RxB

10 RxB

5 Dark Riders, RxB

10 CoK, FC, Banner of Slaughter, Ring of Hotek

10 BG, FC, Crimson Death, Standard of Hag Graef

Hydra

2 RBT

2490

The problem with this one was, that they were all slaughter by heavy troops ( Blood Knight Death Star) and Steam Tanks



Army List Nr. 2 ( a little similar than the first )

Sorceress lvl 4: Pearl of Infinite Bleackness, S. Dagger, PoK, Soulrender

Sorceress lvl 2: Staff of Sorcery, Null Talisman

Sorceress lvl 2: CO, Focus Familiar, Scroll,

Master BSB: Dark Steed, Banner of Slaughter (can go with BG or COK)

24 Spears, Full Command, War Banner, Shield ( go with lvl 4)

20 Spears, FC, Shields ( go with lvl 2)

10 RxB, Muso,

10 RxB, Muso

10 RxB, Muso

5 Dark Riders, Musician, RxB

5 Dark Riders, Musician, RxB

5 CoK, Standard, Musician

20 Black Guard, FC, Standard of Hag Graef, RoK

2 RBT

Didn't test this one yet but will do it as soon as possible.



Army List Nr.3

Dreadlord on Cold One
- Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak
- Pendant of Khaeleth
- AoES
- Seal of Ghrond

Sorcerss lvl 2
- Deathpiercer
- Null Talisman

Sorcerss lvl 2
- Darkstar Cloak
- Null Talisman

Master BSB
- Heavy Armour, Add. Hanweapon and Shield
- Hydra Banner

24 Warriors
-FC
-Shields

24 Wariors
-FC
-Shields
-War Banner

5 Dark Riders
- Musician
- RxB

5 Dark Riders
- Musician
- RxB

5 Harpies

6 CoK
- FC
- RoH
- Standard of Slaughter

20 Black Guard
- FC
- Null Talis
- Banner of Hag Graef

2 RBTs

Hydra

2487

list nr.4 (which I tested agains O&G and did very well)

Lord
- Cold One
- PoK
- Caledors Bane
- Armour of Darkness

Master BSB
- Dark Steed
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Banner of Slaughter

Sorceress lvl 2
2x Scroll

Sorceress lvl 2
2x Scroll

Assassin
- Add. Handweapon
- Rending Stars
- Manbane
- Cloak of Twilight

Assassin
- Add. Handweapon
- Hand of Khaine
- Touch of Death
- Black Lotus

10 Crossbowmen

10 Crossbowmen

5 Dark Riders, RxB

5 Harpies

5 Cold One Knights, Musician

5 Cold One Knights, Musician

20 Black Guard, Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Hag Graef

2 Hydras

The Lord goes with one of the COK, whilw the sorceresses go with one unit of RxB men each. The Assassin with the rending stars will hide in a forest and shoot its stars from there. The other one will be hunting Monsters, Large targets with its killing blow.

Harpies and Dark Riders try to get the enemy warmachines while the COK flank the enemy.

The BlackGuard will stay in the middel flanked by the two hydras.

What do you think?

Christian
30-03-2010, 02:45
Please help me this is urgent

Don Zeko
30-03-2010, 05:23
I'd recommend a dragon. Against other cheese lists, I figure that hotek+caddy is the correct level of magic, so that rules out the first two lists. So I figure my super-cheese army has two hydras, a dragon, a caddy, a BSB w/the ring, plus a big unit of BG, some shades, an assassin in the shades, some xbowmen, 2 units of Dark Riders, and some harpies.

Don Zeko
30-03-2010, 05:24
But if we're just modifying lists, i'd recommend taking rune of khaine on any assassin that doesn't have manbane rending stars.

Christian
31-03-2010, 05:00
well I tried the last list twice already. Once I won (against O&G) the other I lost (against Beastmen)

After a little chat with some of the players at my store I thought I would exchange the harpies for 7 Shades and give one of the Knights Full Command and take away the Armour of Darkness and give the Lord something else. Maybe a potion of strength?

@Don Zenko: Sorry I just saw that I wrote hand of Khaine. I actually should be rune of khaine. And I cant add a dragon because im a little low on money:(

So that there wont be any other misunderstandings ill post the last army again. The problem is if I add the things I said above im around 100 pts. over the limit. is there anything i can cut?

Lord
- Cold One
- PoK
- Caledors Bane
- Potion of Strength

Master BSB
- Dark Steed
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Banner of Slaughter

Sorceress lvl 2
2x Scroll

Sorceress lvl 2
2x Scroll

Assassin
- Add. Handweapon
- Rending Stars
- Manbane


Assassin
- Add. Handweapon
- Rune of Khaine
- Touch of Death
- Black Lotus

10 Crossbowmen

10 Crossbowmen

5 Dark Riders, RxB

7 Shades, GW

5 Cold One Knights, Musician

5 Cold One Knights, Full Command

20 Black Guard, Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Hag Graef

2 Hydras

Christian
02-04-2010, 16:55
anything else I can do to make this list better?

Christian
05-04-2010, 07:48
I know it is boring/anoying to help people build there army list but I think there are more people just than Don Zeko who can help me....

pyroman08
06-04-2010, 04:42
Just outta curiousity where is this "cheesy" tournament held?

If there are "no restrictions" then expect special characters, namely archaon and thorek.

I think a bsb with the standard of slaughter is rather silly, if you need the bsb that much then get a good standard on it not something cok can carry.

I can't remember caledor's bane offhand, but were I going with a combat lord with pok, I'd take the killing blow lance, possibly on a manticore, 8-10 (I think) hatred killing blow attacks is just nasty. That or you could go foot lord with executioner's axe with armour of blood? stuck in the black guard, that way if they come for your general (generally do) you can munch almost anything.

I've never been a fan of scroll caddies, the spells I fear almost require irresistable to go off (no use) or are a few pings in droves (waste of scroll) for the points you spend I prefer 2 more units.

So your assassins go with bg and shades? Do the black guard need a babysitter that much, my thoughts are no.

I'd consider dropping the rxb from the dr as those shots don't do too much for me (aside from dropping a couple skirmishers maybe -3 skirmishers -4 if in cover no thx) and use em for good ol flank n spank.

I don't think I've ever taken musicians on knights, let alone a full command, standard is generally good enough, champ is a waste of points to me, unless for challenge bait to keep a hero alive.

For the shades I'd consider 2x units of 5, more targets = better. Possibly drop gw.

I'm just not feeling the strengths of this list, too battleforce like for my tastes, and I think you'll go down swinging vs other builds gl.

Christian
06-04-2010, 14:27
well i have to say, cant buy the models which you recomended, because i dont have the money. I agree with you that the bsb has to be changed and maybe to cut the rxb on the dr. I use scroll caddies because i need them against demons, vamps and other dark elves (main armies in the tournament)
Are the names characters high elves? If yes than i dont have to worry because there is most probably no high elves in the tournament ( not that i know off anyone using them).
Assassins will be used to kill hard stuff and because the black guard is the only real combat unit on foot, i will use my assassin there.

just to answer your first question: the tournament is in Hong Kong

koningswulf
08-04-2010, 03:46
Hi here is the army I am going to tournament with
maybe you can get some tips from it.

It has good magic, shooting and melee and are very flexible. It has taken shape from lots of battles and small tournaments.
And I am just starting to feel pleased with it all in all.

It is just posted under Druchii Army of Hag Graef 2500 pts where I also have put in comment regarding it.
I intend to try it out this week with a couple of fights. Let me hear what you think.
If you intend to try it out please let me know in my post what you think, much appreciated.
P.S I took the effort and posted my comments at the bottom :-)

1 Sorceress Lv4 (With Warriors )
Pearl of Infinite Bleakness
Sacrifical Dagger
Dispel Scroll X 2

1 Sorceress Lv2 (With RCB 1st)
Seal of Ghrond
Power Stone

1 Master BsB (Solo)
(Has a 1+ AC and Pendant and along with the BsB and Lance and hatred and 18" move he is a mean little fellow and can be used for all kind of operations marchblock, disrupt, mislead, warmachine or character hunting, support or block. If used as block do challenges since very hard to kill and very flexible. :) )
Lance
Pendant
Heavy Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Dark Steed
------------------------------------------------------------
5 Harpys

5 Dark Riders + Repeater Crossbows
Musician

31 Warrior Spears + Shields
FC + Banner of Murder
1 Assassin
Xwp
Rune of Khaine
Hand of Khaine
Cloak of Twilight ( NASTY surprise for many !!! )

10 Dark Elf + Repeater Crossbows

10 Dark Elf + Repeater Crossbows

1 Cold One Chariot + Repeater Crossbows

1 Cold One Chariot + Repeater Crossbows

6 Cold One Knights 1st
FC + Warbanner

6 Cold One Knights 2nd
FC

1 War Hydra
2 Beastmasters

2Crew/ 1 Rep Bolt Thrower

2Crew/ 1 Rep Bolt Thrower

Modells: 86 Wounds: 101 TotalPoints:2500

P.S Figured I could as well put in the comment for you
I have made a balanced Army with good magic, shooting and melee.
And it is not cheezy but can still take on most cheezy armies due to its flexibility.
This is for a tournament 2500 pts.
The deployment can differ depending on opponent and terrain
but basicly it consists of three main battlegroups
with a strong support of magic and missil.

A strong magic phase with 8PD + sacrificial dagger
(the big warrior unit is there for fuel the sacrificial dagger counting 2-3 sacrificies per magic phase)
and ev extra power from succesfull spell of darkness spell.
Dispel is 6dices and 2 dispel scrolls.

Also a strong supporting missil phase with
two units of 10RepCrossbowmen, and 2 RBT
and some stray shoots from the 2 chariots and 5dark riders
and ev Breath from Hydra.
Around 70 arrows in the air at start.

Three battlegroups that support each other as well as can link together when need be.
A BsB on horse solo, a Knight unit and a Chariot.
A Knight unit + warbanner, Darkriders and a Chariot.
A Assassin with Warriors and a Hydra.
If the warrior unit need to fight the Sorceror can easily go into either a darkelfcrossbowmen unit or one of the bolt thrower crew.

The Harpies and dark rider are mainly to disrupt, marchblock while
the BsB and Assassin with cloak of twilight also can go enemy character hunting or warmachine hunting.

Don Zeko
08-04-2010, 05:03
Don't threadjack; post this in a separate thread.

koningswulf
08-04-2010, 05:07
It is not a threadjack.
I have already posted this army in my own thread if you took the time to look.

I just posted it here for easier handling for Christian since he needed help
and I think my army had many similarities and would also be good for him to try out.

Christian
08-04-2010, 07:26
thanks koningwulf. The problem is that I dont have the models to create a similar Army as you did. I really appriciate your help though. Maybe I should put in a lvl 4 sorceress with a unit off spearmen. Would help against other magic heavy lists.

Christian
08-04-2010, 07:43
Ok so I edited the list a little.

Lord
- Full set of Mundane amour
- Cold One
- PoK
- Caledors Bane
- Potion of Strength

Master BSB
- Dark Steed
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Hydra Banner

Sorceress lvl 2
2x Scroll

Sorceress lvl 2
2x Scroll

Assassin
- Add. Handweapon
- Rending Stars
- Manbane


Assassin
- Add. Handweapon
- Rune of Khaine
- Touch of Death
- Black Lotus

10 Crossbowmen

10 Crossbowmen

5 Dark Riders,

5 Shades, GW, Light Armour

5 Cold One Knights, Banner

5 Cold One Knights, Banner

14 Black Guard, Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Hag Graef

2 Hydras

And I still have some questions. Should I really take Caledors Bane and the Potion of Strengh together, should I leave the Potion away or exchange Caledors Bane for the Hydra Blade or Deathpiercer?

Should I take 2 Hydras (is more likely to survive the tournament than 2 RBT) or should I take two more Bolt Throwers.

Well Anyway heres a list of my models if anyone wants to see what I have to improve the army.

2 Sorceresses
1 Dreadlord on CO
1 Master on Foot (BSB)
1 Master on Dark Steed (BSB)
1 Sorceress on CO
2 Assassins

around 30 Spearmen
30 Crossbowmen
20 Corsaires (not painted)
6 Dark Riders

15 Black Guard
10 CoK

2 Hydras
2 Bolt Throwers

Slashattack
08-04-2010, 08:38
Ok I'll work on your latest list. Give the lord a full set of mundane armour heavy armour, shield and seadragon cloak. Drop the Sorceress's to level one as two level 2 won't get much magic off in 2500pt games. Combine the coldone knights into a unit of ten to become a deathstar. Give them full command the ring of hotek and banner of cold blood so that important charge is practically guaranteed against stupidity.

With your core bulk the dark riders to the six you have, the RXBs are fine just maybe bulk numbers up slightly as the more shots the better. Also drop light armour from the shades they really do not need it. With the blackguard since the ROH would now be the cold one knights switch the black guard champion to using the crimson death, as a +3 strength bonus is always nice.

Also keep the two hydras they are the gorgonzola of the dark elf army. Good luck with the tournament.

Slash.

Christian
08-04-2010, 08:58
Thanks Slash. Finally someone who agrees with me that you can put Cold One Knights into a unit of ten. The setup you gave there is the set up I normally use for CoK.

I thought of putting the two hydras next to the black guard. This would be a very hard bite for the enemies.

Christian
08-04-2010, 11:16
ah sorry about the lord. Of course he has a full set of armour.

koningswulf
08-04-2010, 14:48
Looks intresting only problem I see it is way to fragile in terms of very few models and staying power.

I suggest you get a unit of warriors+ shields and have a assassin in there supported by a hydra
this to get more staying power and balance in the army.

20 warriors + shields + Fc and warbanner 180 pts.
Get more Black guard, go for max 20 for staying power they are very fragile 90pts more
To get the point drop 1 sorceror, two lv2 sorc wont make that big difference anyway in magic phase.
make the staying sorceror lv1 and toggle around to get the rest of the points.
Instead take the ring of hotek on your general and drop the potion, this way youll have even better magical defence
You need to swap the Pendant away tho since you cant have 2 talismans but get Armour of eternal servitude instead.
With a +1Ac and 4 reg thats more than enough in defence for your Lord.


This would give you 3 really mean attack groups in support of each other
Warriors+Assassin + Hydra
Black Guard+Assassin + Hydra
Lord+Knights + BsB +Knights.
I would also consider putting the BsB on a cold one and have him with hydra banner in Coldoneknight unit since the hydra banner gives both modells and mounts +1A, the BG + assassin being stubborn and immunt psy should be able to handle themself.

Christian
08-04-2010, 16:44
Hmmmm Sounds quite good. But how should I deploy. Knights in the middle and the rest on the flanks..

koningswulf
08-04-2010, 20:52
Deployment should take opponent and terrain in consideration.
It is very hard to decide that on advance.
But here are a valid option with army something like this.
Mainly to get better value of RoH, Lord ld and BsB use them central.

Lord
-HeavyArmour of ES
- rest of Mundane amour
- Cold One
- RoH
- Caledors Bane

Master BSB
-Lance
- Cold One
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Sea Dragon Cloak
- Hydra Banner

Sorceror Lv1
-2 dispell scrolls (You might want to take away sorceror and get more models instead)

Assassin (With BG)
- Add. Handweapon
- Rune of Khaine
- Manbane

Assassin (With Warriors)
- Add. Handweapon
- Rune of Khaine
- Manbane

5 Dark Riders

10 Crossbowmen

10 Crossbowmen

20 Warriors FC +Warbanner

5 Shades

5 Cold One Knights FC

5 Cold One Knights FC

20 Black Guard FC + Standard of Hag Graef

2 Hydras

Deployment
Hydra BG+A Knights+L BsB+Knights Warrior+A Hydra
Sorceror and both units of crossbowmen as central as possible behind the Knights moving 5" after knights first turns, they should then have a good place to be able to shoot at oppoents and protection from RoH, move them when neccessary.
Dont cast spells with sorceror untill out of RoH sphere.
Shades in good scout place
Dark Riders start in cover if possible or behind other troops since they fragile
and then fast move with 18" to threat asap warmachines or mislead or block.
Always position characters toward center of field to maximize their sphere of influence.

Regardless of deployment what is vital is to attack in support when needed.
Use Hydras breath to soften up enemies when needed especially with assassins and BG since they have ASF.
Try get Hydras in Flank of enemies while breathing then if you got opportunity charge them from 2 sides.
Against good oppoents that wont work then charge with 2 of your units in support at one of his to crush them.
Easier said than done however against good opponents but training gives experience.
Have patience during test battles, try to see whats good and whats not.
Good luck

Christian
09-04-2010, 02:22
I have no money left to buy 5 Black Guard so ill go 7*2+1 which makes 15. So if one dies I still have one rank bonus but still 14 (21 if the BSB is with them on the charge) attacks.

The one Assassin I wanted to put into a shade unit, just to kill charriots or large targets with strength 7 throws (stars) very early.
I will probably have a game today and can test both ways.

Thanks for your support Koningswulf!

koningswulf
09-04-2010, 08:04
I am afraid the assassin dont get str7 with rending stars nor with manbane either.
It states under manbane max str is 6 regardless.
rending stars gives 1+user so only gives str5, it doesnt give the manbane str6+1 something many belive. This has been answered many times in forum.

Good luck in game and post here how it went, looking forward to hear it.

Christian
09-04-2010, 13:22
They don't...Hmm well everyone who plays dark elves in my store use the rending stars on strength seven:s

Anyway I had a testgame today, against demons, but lost.
The player (he also plays dark elves) told me I should take out the Cold One Knights, add another crossbowmen unit and add some Spearmen and an Assassin.

I thought of taking away the BSB and making the two 5 men CoK into a unit of 7 CoK and then add another Crossbowmen unit and maybe another Assassin.

koningswulf
09-04-2010, 14:31
I suggest you play some games first and then tweak it.
One loss can always happend and especially against demons they are problary the best army at moment.

It is also a lot depending on playstyle if you like to be aggressive or sit back and shoot a lot.
It also takes some time to get used to a new army so have patience.

Taking out the cold knights will lower your armies mobility as well as some of its punch but thats just my 2cent :)

Christian
09-04-2010, 15:01
True. Your right about that.

Christian
09-04-2010, 15:30
Koningswulf. Heres the answer for the rending star question from GW:
Q. In combining Manbane and Rending Stars,
which ability happens first, the +1 Strength
from the Stars or the raising of the basic
Strength to +1 above the target's Toughness?
In essence, against a target with T5 would you
raise the Assassin's Strength to 6, then add +1
in order to gain a S7 attack or would you add
+1 to his Strength with the Stars, then boost it
to a maximum of 6 with Manbane?

A. Manbane raises the model’s own Strength,
then any other modifiers are applied.
Therefore, in the example above, the Assassin’s
stars would have Strength 7.

koningswulf
09-04-2010, 22:41
intresting
can you give me the link to that place where they answer questions like this?
I havent seen that answer in the sites/forums I normally look into.

Still many Chariots have T4 so Str would then be 6 and hence no auto death.
Only against chariots with T5 would it give str7 and auto death.
So depends a lot if you know what army you are gonna meet then.

good luck :)

Christian
10-04-2010, 01:51
heres the link
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat1290031&categoryId=1000018&section=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2

Its the FAQ from Games Workshop.

koningswulf
10-04-2010, 10:00
super
thanks mate and good luck in game

Christian
10-04-2010, 10:12
Ah why do I always have to have bad luck...!!! Well I had a game against Skaven today and it went well only to the end. Only the black guard survived. I played with this list:

Lord: 285
- Cold One
- Full Mundane Armour
- Pendant of Khaeleth
- Caledors Bane
- Potion of Strength

Sorceress lvl 1: 150
- 2 Dispell Scroll
Sorceress lvl 1: 150
- 2 Dispell scroll

Master: 176
- Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak
- Great Weapon
- BSB
- Ring of Darkness

10 Crossbowmen: 100

10 Crossbowmen: 100

10 Crossbowmen:100

5 Dark Riders, RxB: 110

5 Shades, GW: 90

9 Cold One Knights, Banner, Champion, Null Talisman, War Banner: 325


14 Black Guard, FC: 277
- Ring of Hotek
- Banner of Hag Graef

Assassin, Add. Handw. Rending Stars, Manbane: 151

Assassin, add Hadw., Rune of Khaine, Touch of Death: 151

2 Hydras: 350

I know now, that I have to little magic defense. So I actually want to take away some stuff. First I thought of removing the ring of darkness of the BSB and give him three null shards for the same price. That means every Unit he is in has MR3. Then I wanted to change the Potion of Strength into two Null Shards for my Lord. Problem is then, that he will be week once in the second round of combat. What do you think?

Christian
11-04-2010, 12:31
Is there anything else I can fo to improve my magic defense?