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Jormangundr
14-02-2006, 14:04
Basicly starting a mordy campaign soon and I am a little stuck... I really wanted to do an undead warband but after going over it a couple of time and going over the rules,they seem to be the worst warband ! the only good thing is the vampire ,but he will most likely dissapear in a cloud of blackpowder ! dregs suck ! necromancer would be good if necromancy was any good.ALL the other spell lists are better...Wtf ! in warhammer proper necromancy rules!

If I am wrong about all this could somone who knows better please put me straight,and make some suggestions about how to start an undead warband..

My alternative choice is dark elves (guess im just a sucker for gothic imagery ) does anyone have any hints/tips on creating/developing/using a de warband, your thoughts will be very welcome

Cheers
J.

asparagus
14-02-2006, 14:51
I don't play mordheim by myself but here you can find some information:

http://mordheim.thrasherkitch.com/Town%20Cryers/

in no. 12 are the rules for a dark elve warband.

Jormangundr
14-02-2006, 18:30
cheers i'll have a look, I take it there are not many mordheim players on this forum ?

Festus
14-02-2006, 20:42
Hi

If I am wrong about all this could somone who knows better please put me straight,and make some suggestions about how to start an undead warband.
Undead are a strong warband IMNSHO.
The Vampire will be your main asset in the first few games hitting-power-wise. But this is rareal needed. YOu can easily win any game of attrition by your painless Zombies alone, as those will slog on longer than any human. Ghouls are your real muscle in a fight: Strong enough to do major damage, and evasive enough to arrive where they are needed.

The Dregs are Heroes, and as such are important for earnings after he game. Protect them AAC.

Played right, the Undead can develop well. Don't forget your Wolves, those 18" of a charge range are sweet.

I strongly advise against DE, as those are absolutely broken compared to the *original* Warbands. You will have to have a very mature player for those, who will not exploit any rules hole. This they have in common with most of the *unofficial* gangs, be it Norse, High Elves, or similar.

I played High Elves once, and even restricted myself to just the 5 Heroes without adding any additional miniature: I still shot most/many other gangs from the board... :(

Greetings
Festus

Lostanddamned
14-02-2006, 21:39
I play what can only be reffered to as an eshin vermintide of death.

Absolutely full roster, with an extra 10 giant rats.

Its not so popular against the smaller warbands regardless of experiance...

Quin 242
14-02-2006, 22:23
Lostanddamned.. giant rats still count against your limit of 20 models... You've been abusing some other players I'm afraid.
You could get a few extra FREE rats if your sorcerer has the Children of the Horned Rat spell but otherwise you are restricted to 20 models in total.

Donnie Darko
15-02-2006, 06:12
Undead have fear as a universal asset, while the feel no pain rule is the best damn thing going in the game.

The Vampire is fast and strong enough in a starting warband to decimate other warbands on his own.

Zombies make excellent living sheilds and are cheap. Will help keep your Necro and Dregs alive.

Ghouls should form the core of the band outside of the heros, as they are the only henchman who can gain XP, and the dogs cost too much.

Magic in Mordhiem is not like WHFB and is still quite powerful (including necromancy). You aren't facing 30+ heavy knights in formation, but a bunch of holigans, so one can't have teclis running around.

Final point to clarify, NO ONE TAKES BLACK POWDER. Handguns are **** and pistols are too pricey to start with. Also armour doesn't actually exist in the game. Treat it like FW products, gorgeous to look at, but no one can afford it.

Watch out for crossbows hunting your vamp (keep him behind some henchies) so don't go racing him around with movement 6, as alone he'll die. Used your vampire and ghouls to crack warbands in CC (they will and can) while your dregs and necro should be second turn charging to take enemies out of action while stunned to rack up the XP's. Zombies take arrows, crossbow bolts, ect for the other usefull members. IF they ever make it into combat your enemy has already lost :)

devolutionary
15-02-2006, 06:49
Dregs have a couple of advantages. They can use weapons (including Bows), they can make you money as Heroes, they can find equipment for your warband, and, the most important factor, they can learn skills. My Dregs were impressive (but so was my Ghoul who learned teh joys of double-handed weapons). Don't count them out. They're fragile to start, but rapidly become your main strike force (they can run after all).

Quin 242
15-02-2006, 11:44
(but so was my Ghoul who learned teh joys of double-handed weapons).

Ghouls cannot use weapons. Per thier description on page 89 "Ghouls never carry equipment, apart from a few bones which they use as primative weapons." Per the Q&A they are prevented from learning ANY weapons at all. And they may not have any equipment either.

But that having been said.. Ghouls are pretty formidable without weapons. They have 2 attacks base and if they ever get a S increase they can be even meaner. Causing fear is an added bonus as the other guys have a good likelyhood of needing 6's to hit you OR of just standing around instead of charging you.

Dregs are the Youngbloods of the undead warband.. they start out pretty weak but get 6-8 experience points on them and they are starting to be worth fighting with. I'd suggest grouping them up and hiding them behind zombies. if they can outnumber a lone adversary and can get the charge it would be worth using them to attack with but otherwise have them linger around the backfield until they get some experience.

If you can get your Necromancer to get the re-animation spell then you can be a little more aggressive with your zombies. The "No Pain" rule means you can advance into fire and still have a good chance of standing. then even if you lose a body, the Re-Animation can stand him right back up.

The undead warband is indeed a force to be rekoned with.

Jormangundr
15-02-2006, 12:01
Cheers fellas hmm Interesting ...what sort of fit - out is standard/good for a vamp ?

Jormangundr
15-02-2006, 12:03
I imagine the ghoul got ' the lads got talent' then picked up the skill that allows you to use any weapon y/n ?

McMullet
15-02-2006, 12:36
As Quin 242 said, they are prevented from learning to use weapons as well. Thoug I do recall someone official saying that they thought it was mean not to let people use their Ghoul conversions...

For your Vampire, you need to take advantage of his god statline by giving him good weapons. 2 swords might be nice, or a sword and something else. I would avoid great weapons as this will negate his good initiative. Armour is a bit of a waste of time, and I've never really bothered with much other equipment. To start off, I'd give your vampire a mace and a sword, and leave it at that.

Quin 242
15-02-2006, 13:09
Cheers fellas hmm Interesting ...what sort of fit - out is standard/good for a vamp ?


Same as for any Hero model. The two weapons choice is always good. Vampires start with 2 attacks as standard so they can get 3 with that load out. As stated, sword/mace is good and you get a parry out of it. I'd add a bow for shooting on your way into combat tho. there are times that stopping to take a shot would be preferable to charging/running.
After the first game, get him a lantern so that he can charge hidden enemy models within charge range. Nothing worse than knowing that guy is there but not being able to charge him :(

I'd suggest a bow for all the heros actually. Dregs might have a suck BS but they can get lucky once in a while and putting them into hand to hand where they don't outnumber the enemy is a bad idea until they get some experience. Spend the extra 5 GC on a bow and skip the short bows. That extra 8" of range (and more importantly 4" of short range) will make a HUGE difference. That's enough to get an extra shot off before you are charged in most cases.

Jormangundr
15-02-2006, 13:18
i was just thinking a vamp with strongman and a great weap a bit later would not be getting parried much.

with parries can you parry all blows or just one ? also is there much point in two swords cos as far as i'm aware you dont get an extra parry ? might go for an axe as its cheap

Quin 242
15-02-2006, 13:40
You may only parry one blow. extra parrying weapons only allow you to re-roll (i.e buckler or pair of dwarven axes).
An extra sword only helps if you have the Expert Swordsman skill where you get to re-roll failed hits with swords when you charge.

An axe is handy if your normal opponent regularly buys armor but it's rare to find armored warriors in Mordheim. Your Vampire already gives a -1 to armor saves with his S4 anyways. The mace/club costs 2 points less and has a better chance to stun an opponent. I'd recommend the mace/club over the axe.

As far as the great weapon/strongman skill combo... Yes you will most likely deny most opponents from parrying but the parry isn't very effective in most cases anyways. they have to BEAT your roll to be effective and in order for your roll to be a hit it's going to be a 4-6 in most cases.. so they would need to roll at LEAST a 5 for any chance to beat your roll. I'll take the extra attack from a second hand weapon (hammer/club/axe/ sword) any day. That means one more attack that they CANNOT parry (only one per turn) and the chance to attack a second model if neccesary.

Jormangundr
15-02-2006, 14:15
Cheers for all your help mate you obviously know your stuff..any chance you could shed some light on the dark elves before I make my mind up ?

Quin 242
15-02-2006, 14:21
The light I can shed is that they are Highly unbalanced and not many folks will play against you if you use them.

Use an opproved list and it's more fun for all involved.

Elfhater
15-02-2006, 14:36
If I can interject on suitable weapons for Vampires, I have found that Halberds are more than a little scary. Two strength 5 attacks can be very useful, believe me! :evilgrin:

thunderwolf
15-02-2006, 15:07
I ran an Undead warband over Christmas, and did rather well. There's not an awful lot else to add to what the others have said regarding them, but id recommend that if you're going to have dire wolves, you take at least 2 so they can support each other. The odd time I did get to charge someone with mine, it tended to run head-first onto a spear...

As to Dark Elves, yes the Lustria band is overpowered, but there's a toned down version available for playtesting on www.mordheimer.com, if you really wanted. I'd stick with undead though, unless you really wanted to go for elves.

Quin 242
15-02-2006, 15:15
If I can interject on suitable weapons for Vampires, I have found that Halberds are more than a little scary. Two strength 5 attacks can be very useful, believe me! :evilgrin:

A vampire with a halberd actually runs him to S6. But 3 strength 4 attacks versus the standard mordenheimer are probably MORE scary as there are likely to be more hits.

Also it's nice to have your high I available on any rounds that you get stuck in instead of striking last in second and subsequent rounds.

Jormangundr
15-02-2006, 16:43
err helberds don't go last ! plus they only add a point of strength.

Quin 242
15-02-2006, 17:48
OOPS my bust.. was thinking great weapons :( Sorry.. you are correct sir!!

Jormangundr
16-02-2006, 00:11
first time for evrything huh...just a question on the dark elves..... what is so broken about them ? I had real trouble getting to 8 models when i wrote a test list ,everything is so expensive !!

just really want to do de's looked at the 'experimental ' list on mordheimer at first glance very little has been changed, although the biggie for me was the rediculously priced crossbows are down to 20 gc's now thank god!

Quin 242
16-02-2006, 00:34
The basic stat lines for ALL the models are highly exagerated and they all start with I6. This means that they can climb walls and fall off heights with no chance of falling.. they are better at climbing that spiders.

Compare the statline of a standard DE versus a standard mercinary...
For 10 points you get +1M, +1ws, +1BS, +3I, and +1Ld for 10 points? Thats a hell of a bargain considering that they also have 0 experience and can therefore upgrade to some VERY scary models in the future.

The whole list has better stats of most heros at a HUGELY reduced price.

Even the novices have the stats of most heros for 25 points :(

AND for a few extra GC you can increase the I of all your warband by an additional +1 with the Ithilmar weapons.

The miscellaneous wargear is pretty overpowered as well... Runestones allow you to cancel the other warbands magic? Hell I'd never leave home without those. And it's not a one use per battle item either.. you can try EVERY time the other guy succeeds.

Once this band makes some money and can afford to furnish all thier guys with Elf bows.. it's all over. 36" range with average BS of 4?? AND a -1 to save if you have armor?

Who can compete with that?

devolutionary
16-02-2006, 00:40
Ghouls cannot use weapons. Per thier description on page 89 "Ghouls never carry equipment, apart from a few bones which they use as primative weapons." Per the Q&A they are prevented from learning ANY weapons at all. And they may not have any equipment either.


This was BEFORE there was an FAQ, and yes, he got a very lucky combo of skills that we, as a play group, concluded there was no way around. The amount of things stating he could be armed to the teeth outweighed the statement barring them from weapons. There is no rule against the skills which at that point countered all other rules (the weapon one in particular allowed the use of weapons which the character could not normally use).

Quin 242
16-02-2006, 01:03
As long as your mates didn't care, that's all that matters.

Jormangundr
16-02-2006, 01:42
why would anyone buy elf bows for their dark elves ?!? it is unthinkable repeater crossbows or pistol crossbows yeah ok .

Quin 242
16-02-2006, 02:03
Is there ANOTHER list other than the one posted on the online rulebook? There is no mention of repeater crossbows there??
http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/shadowwarriors.pdf

Neither piece of wargear is listed as an option...

OH crap.. I was looking at the Shadow Warriors list... It's JUST as broken...
But lets see this thing then...

Ok looked it over and the same issues present themselves.. cheap hero level stats on your basic guys AND for even cheaper than for shadow warriors.. :(

And per the list on GW site the repeater crossbows are still 35 GC... thank goodness :) With the BS of the basic troops at 4 and a range of 24"... two shots each is just sick. And they can move before hand to get into position? Yikes.

Naghaz
16-02-2006, 03:13
The Dark Elves dont seem nearly as bad as the Shadow Elves to me. In our group we allow both but strongly discourage certain obvious power patterns. Our dark elf player has actually struggled, specifically early on in the campaigns. Once he gets some upgrades he can do OK but honestly, the Skaven still whoop up on him most games. Of course, the skaven have won or placed second in each of the 15 campaings I've played in so...

;)

Jormangundr
16-02-2006, 03:24
hmmm yes i was well aware how 'balanced' the skaven in the main book arn't

having looked at the shadow warriors too I would say they are far more bent ( I felt like I ahadd so much more for my gc's 5 heroes all with dagger, longbow ,spear sword,and runes for the seer guy yeek ! I really struggled to come up with much I was happy to start playing, with the dark elves I just figured the expense was a pay -off for the better stats, they die just as easy as everything else in the game but you get much less numbers-wise.

plus I have a real woody for dE's at the mo..........guess i will just have to be mature and play them in a fluffy manner I'll drop my initial list in here for your perusal

highborn-70gc
darksteel 2h sword -30gc
seadragoncloak -50gc
dagger -0 gc

Sorceress- 55gc
sword - 10gc
Dagger -0gc

fellblade- 40 gc
sword -10gc
buckler -5gc

fellblade- 40gc
sword- 10gc
buckler- 5gc

3 corsairs- 90gc
axes- 15 gc
daggers- 0 gc

hired sword - Dark elf assassin - 70gc's

really need four heroes to start ,which with the price of them is immensly crippling .gave my highborn some fluffy bits and i I ,1. really wanted an assassin (only reason to collect dark elves right ;) ) 2. he makes up for the relative lack of bodies and equipment by being quite hard ,also the only way i could hope to afford a ranged weapon in the warband,fortunately he's quite good with it.

so what do you think ? will they hold their own ?,or does it need a re -jig ?

Arryn
13-03-2006, 01:44
With the assassin being the only one able to take out opponents from afar, i see you at a crippling disadvantage. I think you should try squeeze in more ranged.

Jormangundr
13-03-2006, 16:49
just can't do it only ranged stuff available is repeaters and crossbow pistols ,and they are massively expensive ,guess i shall have to suffer for a while.

Quin 242
14-03-2006, 00:18
ah so there IS a drawback to DE list.. expensive ranged combat.. but with the M and I as high as they are they should be able to scoot up close and continue to hide then charge just about anything and cause havoc...