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Stronginthearm
01-04-2010, 01:22
Greetings unto you warseer, once again I come before you to request aid, I'm up a gainst a guy in a league, commonly fields for his 2k army:

Waralter with archlector holding hammer of d6 str 10 hits
2 Steamtanks
4X 6 Knight Units
2 Wizards
2 Grand cannons

We are kicking the battle up to 2500 I am play with my vamps, obviously this is a no holds barred cheesiness fest what should I do?

FailSafe07
01-04-2010, 01:43
First, the "Cannonball on a stick." is one attack and if it hits the attack is resolved at Strength 10 and does D6 wounds. This is an important destinction.

Second, this is pretty much hands down the cheesiest list you can possibly play as Empire. As an Empire player I would never, ever play this list, but since he insists. Tarpit the crap out of his units, especially his Stanks. Use Ghouls or Skellies or even Zombies to keep them tied up. It is not likely that you are going to get many points out of them because you have to do 10 wounds, but if you manage to do just 2 or 3 their effectiveness drops dramatically.

I don't play Vamp Counts so I can't help you with specifics but I would advise the standard what is it 14/15? power dice list and just play point denial like he's going to with those nasty units.

Commodus Leitdorf
01-04-2010, 01:44
Well I'm not a Vampire player so i can't give you any advice about how to tool your army. The only knowledge I can pass on is the fact that a cheesed out Empire army has all the tools nescessary to tear a cheesed out Vampire list to pieces.

1) Enough shooting to whittle down your troops
2)Enough magic defense to stop the spam/remove your key spells (seal of destruction is mean here)
3)Enough toughness/hitting power/speed to hammer your blocks into dust when they need to.

Advice I would give is to go crazy magic heavy (feel no guilt! he's cheesing too) and get ethereal stuff into combat with his stanks to hold them in place if possible. That's about the only advice I can give :(

Clymer
01-04-2010, 01:47
For quick starters the mace of helstrom is 1, S10 hit that does d6 wounds, it's not d6 attacks, so don't let him pull that on you.

Otherwise, Curse of Years works well on the knights. Feed the WAltar a giant tar pit of skellies or ghouls, something without a character so he can't challenge.

Then, wraiths, lots of wraiths, as many as you can take. Bring scrolls and lots of dispel dice... your dispel priority is his magic missiles and the Cleansing Flare from the Altar, you can let just about anything else through. These are the only magical attacks that he'll have besides a piddly 2 from the WAltar. Your wraiths should be able to deal with both Altar and STanks with more or less impunity. When attacking the Arch Lector, attack the Altar, not the Lector first. It's got a 4+ ward, but T5 and 5+ armor, the wraiths should be able to take the altar out from under him in a two turns of combat. Then the AL loses the ward save and he loses that pesky cleansing flare.


Make sure that your wraiths stay far enough apart so that they're not simultaneously hit if that cleansing flare does go off.

By the way, if you can cast winds of undeath, and get some spirit hosts, they can also hold up a Stank indefinetly. He won't be able to get wounds on you and you can invocation the spirit host until the cows come home because you'll probably lose 1 a turn to combat resolution.

A slightly more risky option is blood knights. If they can survive his shooting, Blood knights will have their way with anything he brings, just don't ever accept a challenge from the Arch Lector with them. This option is risky, because if he's clever enough to frenzy draw your knights into getting hit in the flank with cannons, that shooting ward save banner may not be enough to protect you.

To handle knights, I think your black knights ought to do the job if they're lurking in the woods and you can convince him to line up on some dogs to give you a nice charge. That banner of double unit strength will ensure that you outnumber his knights when they need a break check... Snake Eyes, Baby! Black knights on the charge can also do some serious damage to the STank, they'll then sit there in combat until the end of the game unless something else comes to help out, but it does eliminate one of the tanks from play, which may be good enough.

BTW, I'm an Empire player and I feel that of the Big 3, VC is the one that I have the best odds against. I think it can be a pretty fair match up, even if he brings a stank and an altar (2 Stanks might be over doing it).

Good luck!

shredshredxx
01-04-2010, 02:05
cheesefest you say??

bring a 25 strong unit of grave guard, put 3 vampires and a wight king w/ drakenhof banner in it.

murder.

2 units of blood knights should help against those steam tanks, too

Sand
01-04-2010, 09:56
cheesefest you say??

bring a 25 strong unit of grave guard, put 3 vampires and a wight king w/ drakenhof banner in it.

murder.

2 units of blood knights should help against those steam tanks, too

I can't imagine that working well at all.

Lordsaradain
01-04-2010, 10:17
Take vampires with 2 Power Stones each and and Forbidden lore (pick lore of metal). ;)

Bladelord
01-04-2010, 11:34
Vampires can't get 2 PD+Forbidden lore.

Blood Knights got an awesome amount of both attacks and strength so they can be damn nasty vs the Steam Tanks. Just spam Dance Macabre when you want the charge so that the tanks won't grind you to dust in the next turn.

Actually I don't have so much to say, blocks to tie up his units (ethereal are pretty good doing this), super mega magic phase with loads of PD & Blood Knights are awesome vs everything.

sssk
01-04-2010, 12:13
By the way, if you can cast winds of undeath, and get some spirit hosts, they can also hold up a Stank indefinetly. He won't be able to get wounds on you and you can invocation the spirit host until the cows come home because you'll probably lose 1 a turn to combat resolution.

I'm no vampire player, but don't spirit hosts have more than 1 wound? and at best he'll have outnumbering (plus no wounds, plus no ranks, plus no standard), so surely he'll just be causing a single wound per turn (unless you can get to outnumber with enough hosts, in which case it'll just be a stalemate....a lovely lovely stalemate).

As for the rest of it, just take lots of big units of zombies. Remember knights only have 1 attack each plus a horse so they aren't going to pull anything spectacular against massed zombies (if you can have a unit of zombies per unit of knights, and then just keep raising them as and when necessary). Indeed if you can, vanhel's a unit (even a very small one) into a knight unit's flank. That way you're going to suffer all of 2 attacks at strength 3, and you'll have a rank and flank charge, then just keep raising until you outnumber and have enough ranks to beat his 2 (or maybe 3 with a champion) attacks.

This may all be horribly over-simplified, as I said, I'm no vamps player, but it seems sound to me.

Now that all of his units are stuck in one tar pit or another, take a nice big powerful unit (blood knights? black coach? maybe grave guard?) and hit all of those juicy flanks

BigbyWolf
01-04-2010, 12:43
Vampires can't get 2 PD+Forbidden lore.

No, but I don't think Lordsaradain was saying they could. 2 powerstones and Forbidden Lore are very much possible.

Commodus Leitdorf
01-04-2010, 13:06
cheesefest you say??

bring a 25 strong unit of grave guard, put 3 vampires and a wight king w/ drakenhof banner in it.

murder.

2 units of blood knights should help against those steam tanks, too

This wouldn't help much. A bunker unit vs 2 stanks and a War altar means dead bunker unit. Impact hits alone will cut the unit in half. He'll challenge with his lector and you'll just accept with a unit champion...but you need to remember that the Hand Cannon strategy (aka the Mace of Helstrum) is based on the fact that you don't want to have your killy lord speculumed, so you'll feed the Lector the unit champion....and Unit champions are easy CR for a weapon that does a str10 d6 wound hit.

Blood Knights eat Steam Tanks...but this is a 2500pt game and even with all that nastiness he still has 600pt to work with which means lots of Empire shooting. 2 units of Outriders will eat Blood knights for breakfast.

Your better off with Ethereals (Spirit hosts/wraiths) as the only thing that will be able to touch them will be the Lector and his magic....I know Ethereal units always give me fits when I play against Vampires.

Gaargod
01-04-2010, 17:25
Etherealise... anything in that list.

Seriously, the steam tanks should be tarpitted by spirit hosts (they're M6 with ethereal movement + danse, they can catch it :D). And then forgotten about. The min sized base of 3 spirit hosts will last 12 turns of combat - in other words, longer than the combat will. If you feel like it, invo them a few times later to not lose VPs.

Wraiths will pretty much anything he has alive. The Waltar can, at best, kill one a turn. Not nice, but a big enough unit should chew through his donkey cart in a couple of turns, then outnumber by terror cause him.

Basically, spam magic to tarpit stuff until you can get rid of the scary things in his list, then roll up his knights. Empire are vulnerable to tarpitting - knights off the charge are very weak, so can be beaten in combat happily enough. Flank charge and watch them autorun from fear.


Never ever let any character anywhere near his WAltar, for obvious reasons. Although personally, Armour of Meteoric Iron + Sword of Power is a better choice than Cannonball Stick, as you start to actually use the attack stat and he's harder to tarpit.