PDA

View Full Version : Help With Empire against WoC



FailSafe07
01-04-2010, 18:16
I've recently been playing a bunch of games at 1k points (a small point value I know, but that's all we can field of our respective armies) and I have had some serious trouble with his list.

He runs:
Lvl. 2 Tzneetch Sorc (Book, Golden Eye, Disc maybe something else, I don't know)
Lvl. 2 Slaneesh Sorc (Power Familiar, Chaos Steed)
2x5 Nurgle Knights
2x5 Marauders w/ Flails

(he has a very low model count I know, but he can break just about anything I have with those damn knights)

I run:
WP (Heavy Armor, Shield, Van Horstmann's)
Wizard (Scroll, Ring of Volans)
25 Swordsmen (FC)
10 FC detachment
10 Halberdier Detachment
2x10 Handgunners
Cannon
5x Knights
5x Pistoleers

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Bladelord
01-04-2010, 18:24
Do you want tactial advice or advice on how to improve your list without making too many changes?

FailSafe07
01-04-2010, 19:00
Both really. I kind of like the list as is, but am open to some changes.

Wyrmnax
01-04-2010, 19:41
His list is fairly heavy on magic for 1k.

Truth be told, all you need to do against his list is deny his knights. The rest falls apart.

Shoot the marauders. They have 6+ or 5+ save and T3, they wont survive any kind of reasonable shooting. Even unreasonable shooting will kill marauder cav.

Flank the knights. If you can make those knights stand still and do a flank charge they are screwed. Well, maybe not screwed, but suddenly you are fighting 1 knight instead of 5, makes things much easier.

A canon shot to the side of those knights would wipe out a whole group. Or very close. Again, force him to either show his flank to your forces or show his side to your cannon.

Do you have acess to anything that is faster than his knights and can survive a round or two? Again, holding them in place for a side charge would do wonders.

Commodus Leitdorf
01-04-2010, 20:57
Hmm, from what you have you certainly have the tools nescessary to beat WoC (especially that list. WoC have a hard time dealing with the Empire.

First, lets change your character setup. Give him the Armour of Meteoric Iron and the Icon of Magnus along with a Great weapon. With your wizard give him the Rod of Power. That should help deal with his magic more as with the Rod you can have between 4-7 dispel dice depending on how many dice you store. (more useful then a scroll at this point level)

As for the rest of your list, that's pretty good. No need to change anything there. Now to give you a strategy.

The key is to get rid of his Knights. Without them he won't beat you. Focus fire is key here. Pick a unit and shoot EVERYTHING at it (all 20 handgunner shots, your cannon and run your pistoliers right next to them and let loose) Then move on to the next unit. The guy on the disk may decide to try and hunt your cannon...keep your knights next to it to block his path should he position himself to try and charge it. Don't worry about the marauders, your ranked up swordsmen can handle them without issue.

That's about all the advice I can give

Fruhauf
01-04-2010, 21:19
The key is to get rid of his Knights.

Quite obvious, half of the guys army is knights xD

Try and get high defense holder unit (equip it with as much armour save stuff as you can) to just pin his knights in place then use quicker moving units to flank.
I think most people are saying similar things.

Brady
01-04-2010, 21:26
As leitdorf said - shoot everything you have at one knight unit. They should not be able to survive all that even with a one up save.Use your combat units to cover your shooters.

Lord 0
02-04-2010, 09:40
If you are going to put VHS on someone, consider putting it on your wizard.

SkawtheFalconer
02-04-2010, 10:17
Try outriders. The Knights have to come at you, meaning you don't have to move, and all those Shots will really make a mess. Those Chaos Knights are admittedly good, but he really needs them at full strength when he hits your lines.

Eta
02-04-2010, 17:16
Try outriders. The Knights have to come at you, meaning you don't have to move, and all those Shots will really make a mess. Those Chaos Knights are admittedly good, but he really needs them at full strength when he hits your lines.

As long as the knights hit the front of a big unit with full SCR this is correct, but a flank charge even of only three knights will most of the time punch through the standard Empire infantry unit. That said, with some clever positioning the OP should be able to wipe out a unit of knights with his cannon, 20 handgunners and the unit of pistoleers.

Greetings
Eta

SatireSphere
02-04-2010, 20:08
If he can charge your parent block on the front and win with the knights, consider giving the warrior priest in that squad the Rod of Command and hold out so you can flank his knights with some of your own.

A battle standard bearer could be useful here, if you give him the griffin standard.

greendan
02-04-2010, 20:28
I guess this is about a 1000pt game?
I would suggest taking a second block of swordsmen. 2 units of 20 should be okay at this points level.
two 9 strong detachments of either free company or halberds, and 2 detachments of 10 handgunners.
keep the knights, warrior priest & wizard (the set up suggested with the AoMI,gw & rod of power is good)
Outriders instead of pistoliers may be better as well. You'll have like 50ish points over so you could add another knight and outrider.

His army is very small. A couple rounds of shooting and stand a shoot charge reactions should pretty much decimate him.
Line your handgunner detachments up in front of your swordsmen with the detachment deployed to the side of the swords.
Shoot & shoot is what i suggest, he has to charge your handgunners if he wants to get to the sword blocks, and theres no way hes not taking casualties from stand & shoot plus previous rounds of shooting.
He can break them and overrun into your blocks (depleted) and you should beat him by combat resolution (remember detachments don't cause panic)
Your outriders are also very useful as they put out a good amount of firepower and are fast cav so can rush behind the enemy and get into a better position for later in the game.
The knights can deploy out wide for flanking as well.

You should'nt have too much trouble with empire vs the kind of list you are facing.
Good luck! :chrome:

AMWOOD co
03-04-2010, 05:37
Is there anything in the Empire magic weapon list that ignores armour? A pegasis rider with that would really ruin his day as the disc rider becomes vulnerable and the knights are begging to be flanked by the flyer.

Other than that, as a long time Chaos player, I hate handguns and I love detachments. I charge detachments to let me pass through the enemy's front line. Breaking the line can be just as bad as destroying a key unit.

Stumpy
03-04-2010, 07:51
As a veteran empire player, I'm going to go against the grain and say don't bother shooting. A cannon and pistoliers yes, but they're more for annoyance. Hitting on 6's, followed by 4+ to wound then 3+ to save is pretty lame against knights. I'm also not a fan of empire magic (at 1k I'd normally just take a WP for dispel), but giving the wizard the rod of power would make him more useful. Speculum isn't much use on the WP as all he has to challenge are wizards. Meteoric iron and great weapon or a horse would be handy.
Take more knights. That's what it comes down to. 6 with a standard should be pretty good at threatening the chaos knights flanks and will butcher the marauders and sorcerors. 2 units of these plus other stuff should be cheerful. Your detachments are pretty worthless against this army sadly (as they are against most). Make them 5-strong and use them as a multipurpose screen/bait unit.

Lord Solar Plexus
03-04-2010, 08:24
Who precisely is hitting on 6's? Neither the handgunners, Outriders nor Pistoliers are. Still agree, I don't see how those handgunners et al could possibly make an
impression. You'll get two turns with completely static units, so it is extremely unlikely that all of them will have LoS.

Otoh, I don't see how knights would threaten or butcher anything.

CaptScott
03-04-2010, 08:57
1st - don't try and go toe for toe for him with magic, focus on defence. Get rid of Volans, drop a wiz level and grab perhaps another scroll. Bam, you've neutralised a large portion of his army.

2nd - turn one of the 10 strong detachments into 2x5 strong, and use them to march block, or to redirect charges. Either way you'll have more time for shooting, and if you redirect well you may expose a flank to be charged by your knights.

3rd - eliminate the marauders early. Handgunners and Pistoliers should do the trick. One you have his knights isolated use your small units to redirect them, with the aim of getting your knights or combat block in its flank.

4th - try the rod of command if you can find 50 points. Great for holding a charge. Set it up so your block is charged, use rod, then counter charge the flank with knights (even to the rear with pistoliers).

Good luck

ROCKY
04-04-2010, 16:19
Who precisely is hitting on 6's? Neither the handgunners, Outriders nor Pistoliers are. Still agree, I don't see how those handgunners et al could possibly make an
impression. You'll get two turns with completely static units, so it is extremely unlikely that all of them will have LoS.

Otoh, I don't see how knights would threaten or butcher anything.

well technically most of them are, ur standard 4+ to shoot correct? then u have long range -1, and mark of nurgle -1, that does look like six to me :P and even in close shooting it will still be 5+ to hit, not good odds. the only thing not affected is the cannon. my advice is to shoot down the disc rider and the fast cav, while focusing cannons, and the rest on your army on the 2 units of knights.

highelfmage
04-04-2010, 19:06
if he refuses to drop a unit of knight at 1k then i would take a steam tank. scouting archer to march block. the hero that steals spells on a Pegasus may be good. drop cannon for a stone thrower.

AMWOOD co
04-04-2010, 23:32
What Stone Thrower? The empire has mortars and rocket lauchers, but not stone throwers.

Commodus Leitdorf
04-04-2010, 23:39
Mortars at str3 wont kill much (accept maybe the marauders...but there not the issue with the list) and Helstorms (though I love them) are only useful in pairs and there more for taking out blocks of troops and not fast moving cavalry.

selone
05-04-2010, 02:29
I'm fairly suprised you can't beat him, you have a good list and he has a thread-bare one :)

FailSafe07
05-04-2010, 03:42
Maybe I just have bad luck. Or maybe i'm just not going about beating him the right way, those 2 knights units are murder.

By the way, thanks everybody for the advice and the help. It's been really useful.

Sambojin
05-04-2010, 04:14
From the list you have, depending on models available, I'd make a few changes.

Ditch the halbediers and Free Company. Get another handgunner unit or detachment. If you're having trouble hitting his knights, then use the handgunners to butcher his marauder cav. Cannon the disc rider or knights. If you can get the knights to show a flank, then hit them, otherwise the disc rider (despite the ward, if you get past that, it's a one shot kill most of the time).The 2 M.cav units may be dead in 2 turns at most.

I'd swap out the VHS on the priest to save some points too. And the ring/lv 2 on the wizard for another scroll. Its easier to defend at this level. Maybe detachmentise mini-hangunner units to the swordsmen (or archers etc) or spend them on what you like. A hochland champ or two might make all the difference. Or if you could squeeze points for more knights it would be great.

This is the sort of stuff I fear at low points with my HOC/BOC or O+G. Infantry detachments are nothing.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-04-2010, 07:28
mark of nurgle -1

Ah, I didn't know that. Still, that just exarcerbates the problem. His handgunners could shoot the knights all game long or stay at home, same difference. Those 30 shots would perhaps kill one knight per turn and it is unlikely that they will all be in range/have LoS all the time. Even if they do, it doesn't really matter when you're being charged on turn 3. Regrettably, the same goes for the combat troops so I don't understand the notion that he's got the necessary tools. I don't see what the Swordsmen could do, and advising him to ditch combat troops for even more missile troops that won't do all that much leaves him with little to flank - if the charged block even holds. Hoping for a flank shot with a cannon is a bit iffy.

nub5
06-04-2010, 22:47
If you are going to put VHS on someone, consider putting it on your wizard.

I can't recommend this. Yes it great to swap a wizards stats, but you have no protection for the wizard while the hero / champ will have a good AS and possibly a ward.

Honestly I would drop the VHS all together at this point level as was mentioned. My preference would be the Rod of power over 2 dispel as if you take out one mage you can start going more offensive with the Rod. He only has 4 DD dice like you do.


Also keep in mind if he puts champions in the Knight units you can snipe any characters or champs in the unit since they don't get look out sir rolls. Also any shooting can hit characters. He must have five RnF troops (champions do not count toward this) to gain the benefits of immune to shooting and look out sir.

Will you shooting you may want to look into Heavens magic for portent of the far (all hits/wounds of 1 are rerolled) as support.

Havock
06-04-2010, 23:09
Ask him to tone down the list a bit, 2 wizards and 2 units of knights is pretty hardcore. If he doesn't, drop a steam tank on him. He will not like.

halforkbarbarian
07-04-2010, 02:28
his leadership for all his units is only 8 and nothing more. to kill his heros get up close with your heroes as they are only sorcerors and the eye of the gods rule (which all heros/lords and champions have) dictates that they HAVE to issue and accept challenges if the situation allows it. but knights are tough you should flank them and get behind him. beat him in the combat res and block him off by units that are getting them from behind and destroy them. they are only ld 8. shoot the marauders flank and rear the knights (beat them in combat res as there are only 5 of them)and challenge the heroes ( there only sorcerors and even chaos sorcerors wont hold up to long against another hero level charactor (providing there not sorcerors also)

Stumpy
07-04-2010, 03:45
Umm, I don't know if you're aware of the relationship between empire fighter heroes and chaos sorcerors. Sorcerors are better than warrior priests and a match for captains. I have had empire characters die against chaos sorcerors a number of times. That's not to say challenging is a bad thing, you usually won't die and can bring combat res to bear.
Really though, I'd be taking pistoliers (they should be respectable against marauder horses, remember you can always stand and shoot) and knights (6 with standard). I'd ditch the wizard and rely on stopping one spell/turn with the 3 dispel dice (either flickering fire or helshriek). I'd also ditch the static shooting units and the large detachments (small is fine).

inquisition
08-04-2010, 04:12
I am also having problem my Empire against WOC. Been losing to the WOC. Sometimes luck also come in to play as my cannon keeps failing..haha.

In a 2500k game, my opponent usually have 2 units of chaos warriors(12), 5 knights, giant and those other fast calvary like hounds and marauders, lords, sorcerers...

My unit of 25 swordmen cant seem to break his chaos warriors, then still have to deal with his sorcerer magic, his other chaos units and the giant. All his units seem overwhelming to fight...

Think I will be trying out the steam tank in the coming game...

Any advice? or a suggestion list?

cheers

KalEf
08-04-2010, 07:21
I've recently been playing a bunch of games at 1k points (a small point value I know, but that's all we can field of our respective armies) and I have had some serious trouble with his list.

He runs:
Lvl. 2 Tzneetch Sorc (Book, Golden Eye, Disc maybe something else, I don't know)
Lvl. 2 Slaneesh Sorc (Power Familiar, Chaos Steed)
2x5 Nurgle Knights
2x5 Marauders w/ Flails

(he has a very low model count I know, but he can break just about anything I have with those damn knights)

I run:
WP (Heavy Armor, Shield, Van Horstmann's)
Wizard (Scroll, Ring of Volans)
25 Swordsmen (FC)
10 FC detachment
10 Halberdier Detachment
2x10 Handgunners
Cannon
5x Knights
5x Pistoleers

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Helblaster him... I have a lot of knights. If I see a helblaster i pee myself :cries: yes nurgle will help him out... but probably not as much as he wishes.

Like people have been saying, Your halberds and free company won't scratch a knight. IF any one lives, they hit on 5s they wound on 4s or 5s and the knights get a full armor save. so all your detachments are about the same fight wise.

If you're trying to combat rez you'll need a bsb or to put a better save on your characters. the WP could have a 1+ armor GR weapon and mr1, or maybe be mounted with a +1 rerollable and st5. If you go with a bsb you'll have to decide between unkillable or amazing CR.

What do your knights end up doing for you? more than another unit of pistoliers or a cannon?

Havock
08-04-2010, 11:03
Just to show that empire can hurt knights without going for a gunline: inner circle knights with a warrior priest.
Shoot some knights up unti there are like, 3 or so. Charge and kill the suckers.
6 attacks on WS4 (MON -> 3) with reroll to hit will probably net you around 4 wounds, he is stuck to a 4+ save, his S5 attacks are not going to be too bothersome for your 1+ save.

Eta
08-04-2010, 11:14
Just to show that empire can hurt knights without going for a gunline: inner circle knights with a warrior priest.
Shoot some knights up unti there are like, 3 or so. Charge and kill the suckers.
6 attacks on WS4 (MON -> 3) with reroll to hit will probably net you around 4 wounds, he is stuck to a 4+ save, his S5 attacks are not going to be too bothersome for your 1+ save.

Sounds well enough, although if you fail your fear test you will be in big trouble.

Greetings
Eta

w3rm
08-04-2010, 14:58
If he fails the fear test he's hitting on 6's. He can still chage and anywho if you get lucky the preist can make them unbreakable so you dont have to worr about that.

PeG
08-04-2010, 16:28
I have the opposite problem at the same point level.

My opponent brings a Hellblaster, 2x12 handgunners with champion that fires extra shots, archer detachements, 2 wizards, pistoliers and some other stuff that normally doesnt do anything.

At this time I am not using double units of knights since it seems a bit boring so any other advice would be welcome. I am not really limited by access to models. I am considering using Throgg despite normally not using special character and bring lots of trolls. With M6 and regeneration they should be able to get into combat and do some damage.

The alternative seems to be to gear up a couple of disc heroes to do as much damage against RnF as much as possible.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Deacon Bane
08-04-2010, 16:53
Hellblasters are my biggest phobia vs Empire. Then add the handgunners and it's downright frightfull. I would rather face the Stank. I hope for first turn then use 4 units of hounds in front of 2x6 units of MOK Horsemen w/flails. MOT disc Sorc.Lord also is good, get him behind terrain and within 24". I've tried Wulfrik but he is unreliable.

KalEf
08-04-2010, 17:27
If he fails the fear test he's hitting on 6's. He can still chage and anywho if you get lucky the preist can make them unbreakable so you dont have to worr about that.

Used to be that way. Now if you fail the fear test, you don't move. On the positive side, If you do put your WP in there, there are Items to make them immune to fear.

GWItheUltimate
08-04-2010, 20:52
Well, as a WoC player, I'd suggest you some general lines:

-War Machines !!! Especialy Great Canons ! Do not take Mortar. Hellblaster is pretty nice too but I fear great cannon the most.

-Don't put too much point in handgunners, they most of the time won't kill much...

-Some Magic defense would be great, as you know the WoC will probably be high on magic. But on the other hand, do not go too offensive with magic, as it will most probably sucks and won't kill much either.

-For infantry, you HAVE to charge. Anyway, the WoC will come to you so you can afford to stay and shoot until you have the charge. Also, try to make BIG regiment of Swordman/Greatswords backed with Magic Banners and Captains. Detachement is very nice if you manage to flank with them.

-in 2k + games, At least 2 regiments of cavalry, and don't forget, you want the charge, so if it's mean to look at him and stay where you are all the game, just do it ! if you deny a regiment of Chaos Knights with one of you're cavarly, that's definitely a win situation for you.

Hope that helps.

GWItheUltimate
08-04-2010, 21:59
If you go magic heavy, take Metal all the way !!

I'd go Heavens second choice because you can stay really far away from me and still manage to scratch me sometime ;-)