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merghmer
02-04-2010, 06:00
Ok, this has been bugging me for quite some time.

Now we all know about Slaaneshi cults. There ain't nobody who doesn't like sex, drugs and rock and roll so we can assume there's plenty of secret pleasure cults out there in the IoM.

Khorne is pretty simple too. The 41st millenium being an endless slog of war, killing and death it would be all too simple to lose control into mindless rage and bloodlust. Khorne cults would just go around slaughtering people in a mindless rage and you can see how attractive that would be...... ;)

But nurgle and slaanesh.......meh, really.

Nurgle's cults would be downright unattractive IMO. So he is despair, guess his cults would be like the depressed emo gatherings where everyone has "issues" and suicidal tendencies. Problem with that is those people don't last all that long.......without serious psychiatric help, they'd do a group suicide instead.

Not to mention they'd all start falling sick and diseased, hardly the sort of thing you want when starting a secret cult. Inquisitors would be banging down the doors in no time.


Tzeentch is an even stranger one. He is.........the god of deceit, plotting and.....knowledge? So what the heck do his cults do?

Sorcery like Thousand Sons? Unlikely - not many humans are psychic, and the talent pool would be really small. Lying and plotting? Those are things you do alone, hardly in big cultish groups!

So that leaves knowledge - so.......studygroups are like Tzeentch cults? Surely it can't be the pursuit of all knowledge, otherwise the T'au are only a few steps from becoming the first Chaos-ruled empire....

Thoughts anyone?

Tenken
02-04-2010, 06:14
I think there's quite a bit of tzeentch worship amongst politicians and other political figures. They try to emulate him as the great plotter would be my guess. Not really sure about this, just a guess really. Tzeentch is also the god of change, so perhaps cultists are imperial dissenters. Those who actively (if secretly) oppose imperial rule to change the status quo. I mean when you're just a regular citizen, slaving away 14 hours a day change starts to look REALLY nice. Again, just another guess.

Nurgle appeals to those ALREADY afflicted more often than not. If you're afflicted with a terminal condition and accept nurgle's embrace suddenly that terminal condition has become a boon rather than a death sentance.

Son of Sanguinius
02-04-2010, 06:19
The cults of all the gods draw in those more susceptible to their emotions. A Nurgle cult will draw in those eager to see the fall of a ruler or those gripped by poverty and disease. A Tzeentchian cult will draw in those who seek knowledge, sorcery, or power.

And once you're under their thrall, the cults (and the gods they serve) are quite persuasive and can assuage doubts easily. What looks to you like a hideous drawback to joining the cults of nurgle will look like a near immunity to disease and the paternal embrace of Papa Putrescence to someone on the inside.

Like Lorgar says, "The difference between gods and demons depends largely on where one is standing at the time."

merghmer
02-04-2010, 06:32
I think there's quite a bit of tzeentch worship amongst politicians and other political figures. They try to emulate him as the great plotter would be my guess.

Yes, but I do think you would have to distinguish big time between regular "plotting" and Tzeentch worship.

A minor administratum official plotting how to get promoted at work doesn't really empower Tzeentch IMHO, nor is it actual worship.

I really don't think ANY sneaky plan automatically equates to empowering Tzeentch, otherwise Ork Kommandos would all be Tzeentch worshippers (and so would Gork). Not to mention the Raven Guard.

merghmer
02-04-2010, 06:35
A Tzeentchian cult will draw in those who seek knowledge, sorcery, or power.

Ok, sorcery is fair enough (and I agreed as such) but the numbers would be really small, since not all humans are psychic and as such have no potential as sorcerers.

But Knowledge is a tricky one. Are T'au worshippers of Tzeentch then since they value knowledge highly? What about Adeptus Mech?

Sloeberjong
02-04-2010, 06:57
Who says you need to be psychic to worship Tzeentch in order to seek/recieve sorcery? Maybe you can have one guy worshipping Tzeentch who's a bit psychic and gains power through his god and then gains followers? You need followers in a cult...cannon fodder if you will.

I don't think it would be hard to imagine cults forming for any of the Chaos Gods. There is more than enough despair, violence, lust and power in the 40k universe...I can easily imagine cults of Nurgle in Underhives, cults of Slaanesh in Upperhives, Cults of Khorne in gangs or Cults of Tzeentch led by ambitious leadership figures (could also be gang leaders or political leaders).

And those are just a few simple examples. They could be even more intricate and more farfetched...even rich people can worship Nurgle if their loved ones fall ill, or if an economic crisis arises ;)

I think Orks wouldn't consiously worship the Chaos gods. They could be manipulated, but they're too simple minded to worship them as actual chaos gods...they're more likely to follow the biggest Ork who's onder influence of a deamon or something.

Aren't Tau impervious to the Warp? Makes it hard for the gods to actually "gift" them...and then following the gods without result kinda sucks...so while it COULD happen...it's not very likely.

Ahwell...and then there's the general Deamon infection which could affect anyone basically...except Tau then ;)

Nazguire
02-04-2010, 08:33
Tzeentch also embodies that quest for more knowledge and the power it brings. So it's not hard to imagine cults springing up around those who desire more knowledge to become more powerful ( those psykers trying to avoid persecution, mutants in the Underhive, Administratum librarians who catalog obscure texts)

Sorcery doesn't require psychic power, it requires sacrifice and emotions to break the walls between dimensions to feed the daemons you created your pact with so they can act out your wish. So what could start as an innocent little gathering of nobility playing with things they don't understand ( ouiji boards, seances) can suddenly spiral out of control when something actually happens...

So then they start wondering what happens were they to obtain more knowledge, use more dangerous artefacts and procedures and suddenly Sally the virgin is being sacrificed to a feathered idol.

These things can happen in all sorts of ways

Cults of Nurgle can spring up from plague victims, people afraid of dying from old age, starving families, government officials afraid of being forgotten ( Governor Temba) amongst other things. What starts as praying to the Emperor for relief from the plague turns into worshipping the disease and its power itself.

Dreachon
02-04-2010, 08:35
Nurgle's cults would be downright unattractive IMO. So he is despair, guess his cults would be like the depressed emo gatherings where everyone has "issues" and suicidal tendencies. Problem with that is those people don't last all that long.......without serious psychiatric help, they'd do a group suicide instead.


Such a simple view but somewhat incorrect, nurgle is not despair, it's hope, hope that you will recover from the illness, hope that you won't die, that is how nurgle get's mortal followers.
That is what we see in almost every book in which people turn to nurgle, they pray to him in hope of not getting sick anymore, to avoid death, to help others etc etc.

TheOverlord
02-04-2010, 08:45
I imagine it would be akin to fantasy Tzeentch cults, where a bunch of disillusioned college kids who hates the government and wants to topple it gather together innocently enough, until somebody innocous joins them and raises to become their leader, and teaches them secrets privy only to a select few, power to change their destiny and the government they hate so much. It might be subtle at first, machinations in the lower echolons of government, then it spreads, gathering more and more supporters while their mysterious leader slowly disappears from public view, only adding to his mystique and charm.

And when the entire world burns as rioters, provocateurs and revolutionists run rampant on the street, Tzeentch steeples his fingers together and goes "Excellent..."

TheShadowCow
02-04-2010, 09:14
I imagine it would be akin to fantasy Tzeentch cults, where a bunch of disillusioned college kids who hates the government and wants to topple it gather together innocently enough, until somebody innocous joins them and raises to become their leader, and teaches them secrets privy only to a select few, power to change their destiny and the government they hate so much. It might be subtle at first, machinations in the lower echolons of government, then it spreads, gathering more and more supporters while their mysterious leader slowly disappears from public view, only adding to his mystique and charm.

And when the entire world burns as rioters, provocateurs and revolutionists run rampant on the street, Tzeentch steeples his fingers together and goes "Excellent..."

This is an excellent example of how a Tzeentch cult may toppe a world. It doesn't even need the innocuous stranger of course - Tzeentch can simply seep into their thoughts once their minds are working along lines closer to his.

Soon everyone is plotting to bring down the world, everyone is plotting against one another and in a final crescendo everyone's plots unravel in the space of the same five minutes. That's when the Daemons step forth :p

It doesn't even have to be full blown worship, in much the sae way that Khorne can seduce a world through martial pride, warrior skill or simply the will to dominate its neighbours.

Chaos is subtle, Chaos is patient and everything you think and do ultimately leads to Chaos.

Askil the Undecided
02-04-2010, 12:01
For christ's sake sorcery and being a psyker are very different things.

Sorcery is the art/science of getting deamons to do your bidding with contracts, rituals, deals, traps and such. It's basically a faustian thing and as such it's a thing that normally ends quite badly. (Damnation, death, ultimate futility etc...)

Being a Psyker is using your own power to make effects with the warp.

Sorcery is asking a maniac who will rape your soul out through your eyeholes and tear you to shreds afterwards to do you a favor in return for something, being a Psyker is doing it yourself and hoping the selfsame maniac doesn't notice you in his back yard.

Nurgle promises a release from misery and hardship by inuring you to your sorrow/deformity/disease and making you a pustulent but jovial figure.

Tzeentch promises power and knowledge and in some cases the sorcerous skill to gain more of both. You may even get it too, but not always in the way you want.

merghmer
02-04-2010, 14:28
This is an excellent example of how a Tzeentch cult may toppe a world. It doesn't even need the innocuous stranger of course - Tzeentch can simply seep into their thoughts once their minds are working along lines closer to his.

Hmmm but I beg to differ.

My question is not how Tzeentch could topple a world - thats obvious enough for a sneaky bugger like Tzeentch, but rather how he would profit from that cult's "worship".

Just as not all killing benefits Khorne, not all scheming or learning benefits Tzeentch. Rather it needs to be taken to an excess (like the other 2 - letting bloodlust or debauchery take over your life) before it feeds a Chaos God's power.

Take Dark Eldar as an example. Fluff says they are well known for backstabbing and Machiavellian to the core, but they are hardly Tzeentch devotees, nor do they feed nor fear the Twisting Serpent.

Also, T'au value learning but don't feed Tzeentch either.

Sure, there are probably some High Machiavelli-type characters that scheme all the time and may empower Tzeentch, but those sort of characters are rare.

Also, the Tzeentch cult, what would they do that worships their Patron God?

Assuming as per your example they don't actually worship, wouldn't that mean Tzeentch gets far less worship compared to the likes of Khorne/Slaanesh and thus be less powerful?

merghmer
02-04-2010, 14:33
For christ's sake sorcery and being a psyker are very different things.

Sorcery is the art/science of getting deamons to do your bidding with contracts, rituals, deals, traps and such. It's basically a faustian thing and as such it's a thing that normally ends quite badly. (Damnation, death, ultimate futility etc...)

You, mate, are wrong. And its quite amusing to see you patronizing other people with your self importance when you are quite clearly wrong.

The fluff is quite clear on that.

ALL of the Chaos Sorcerors are Psykers.

Fluff also explicitly states that WE killed all their Librarians (Psykers) as Khorne hates sorcery. Now what can we see from that?

spetswalshe
02-04-2010, 14:36
Sorcery is asking a maniac who will rape your soul out through your eyeholes and tear you to shreds afterwards to do you a favor in return for something, being a Psyker is doing it yourself and hoping the selfsame maniac doesn't notice you in his back yard.

Unfortunately, of course, the favour the Daemon asks in return is your soul with which to eyehole-rape.

Low-level Tzeentch cults could be very numerous; things like mutant cults (Tzeentch being the bringer of change, they could pray for more mutation as a kind of trans-humanist cult, or to be changed into a regular human) or revolutionaries; both very attractive to mutants (who are universally abhorred and treated as slaves, at best) and to the trudging working class masses respectively. Tzeentch will lend power to anything that results in change - and a revolution against the Planetary Governor and his PDF legions would be a lot easier if you could trick the people to meld their flesh together to make a Titan made out of human beings (with you at the helm).

However, Tzeentchian cults tend to be small in number but inordinately powerful - a Slaaneshi cult might number in the thousands but have less political might than a small Tzeentch coven. As such, they're attractive because they're a powerful subversive element - probably working to the same end as any disaffected outsiders. Of course, once someone joins, even if it was for relatively good intentions (rooting out corruption in the aristocracy, say) the others in the coven will quickly use their divined knowledge to see to it he can't leave - blackmail and putting people in impossible positions are Tzeentch's trade, after all.

Nurgle cults, on the other hand, are propagated by a few core sickos, who recruit the masses on the basis that they can either take the Nurgle painkiller or suffer a slow and agonising death.


You, mate, are wrong. And its quite amusing to see you patronizing other people with your self importance when you are quite clearly wrong.

The fluff is quite clear on that.

Everything in Dark Heresy would beg to disagree.

merghmer
02-04-2010, 14:37
Such a simple view but somewhat incorrect, nurgle is not despair, it's hope, hope that you will recover from the illness, hope that you won't die, that is how nurgle get's mortal followers.
That is what we see in almost every book in which people turn to nurgle, they pray to him in hope of not getting sick anymore, to avoid death, to help others etc etc.

Any good fluff that details a Nurgle cult?

I've always thought that Nurgle was the God the morbid, depressed and despairing mortals flock to in that opposites attract......

Dreachon
02-04-2010, 14:42
Not as far as I aware, but nurgle is much more than despair, people will give up to nurgle for the hope of no longer beeing sick, it happened with Mortarion.

TheOverlord
02-04-2010, 15:01
Tzeentch cults do not have to be as extreme as the other cults, the same like how the low level Khorne cults are not always entirely axe wielding psychopaths.

Tzeentch grows in power through hope and ambition, which exists in every living being, so Tzeentch is fed constantly, unlike the other Gods that are more focused in a single event. Every politician, every worker that tries to better his station, even scheming, bored noble and every student trying to better himself feeds Tzeentch. He doesn't need specific cults to feed him, although he might enjoy having multiple cults working against one another and destablize an entire sector for the lulz. The highest level of worship for Tzeentch involves cults that are involved with Sorcery and Mutation, like the highest level of cults for Khorne are mass murdering psychopaths.

Nurgle doesn't cultivate cults like the other Gods, if fantasy is any indication. While there ARE Nurgle cults out there, it is the direct result of one of Nurgle's minions at work. Say a village suffers from disease, and when they are abandoned and they become desperate, they pray for someone to release them, and Nurgle answers. Most will assume that these villages/hives/worlds are probably dead from the disease and will steer clear from it, so they thrive and continue worshipping nurgle.

rivers3162
02-04-2010, 15:37
I've always imagined that Nurgle cults could spring up in numerous different circumstances. I'd imagine that the main one would be where some kind of epidemic is already present and people turn to Nurgle in order to save themselves - something like the destroyer plague or the plague of unbelief.

Or it could be something simple like someone trying to prevent a loved one from dying or even a fear. Or maybe a person will turn to Nurgle simply because they're terrified of their own mortality and by the thought of all their life's works coming to an end so by embracing Nurgle, they effectively become immortal.

The only Nurgle cult I can think of being depicted in fluff was in Inferno! in a comic strip. The name escapes me but it involved a Blood Angels sergeant, librarian and a Calidus assassin. IIRC the planet they were on had been taken over by a Nurgle cult called the council of the nine, which was made up of the leading authority figures from the planet's government.

NightrawenII
02-04-2010, 18:29
You, mate, are wrong. And its quite amusing to see you patronizing other people with your self importance when you are quite clearly wrong.

The fluff is quite clear on that.

ALL of the Chaos Sorcerors are Psykers.

Fluff also explicitly states that WE killed all their Librarians (Psykers) as Khorne hates sorcery. Now what can we see from that?
No, you are wrong and he is right. Chaos Sorcerers are psykers for the game-purpose. NOT ALL sorcerers are psykers, Necrosius for example was apothecary of Death Guard pre-nurgle incident, and right now he is sorcerer(and not psyker).

massey
02-04-2010, 19:02
Anyone can be a sorceror. All it requires is opportunity, and a willingness to enter into unwise deals. Opportunity can come at any time, in any form. A cursed book, a magical ring, a special alignment of the planets, or even just a willing mind. Contact is made, often by the warp power, and a deal is struck. Then you're a sorceror.

madd0ct0r
02-04-2010, 20:32
Exactly. In dark heresy, the only way to gain physic powers (outside of being a sanctioned psyker) is a pact with the dark gods.

you can either be born with it, or have it thrust upon you.

Firaxin
02-04-2010, 22:31
I've always imagined that Nurgle cults could spring up in numerous different circumstances. I'd imagine that the main one would be where some kind of epidemic is already present and people turn to Nurgle in order to save themselves - something like the destroyer plague or the plague of unbelief.

Or it could be something simple like someone trying to prevent a loved one from dying or even a fear. Or maybe a person will turn to Nurgle simply because they're terrified of their own mortality and by the thought of all their life's works coming to an end so by embracing Nurgle, they effectively become immortal.
It doesn't even have to be something afflicting humans. If there's a normal, seasonal drought on an agri-world, and your crops/livestock are suffering, you can pray to Nurgle for help with that, too.

PariahX
02-04-2010, 22:58
This is not too hard to understand...

Nurgle could be seen as the expression of the philosophy of pessimism; where life is seen as only suffering, an imposition which is forced upon creatures without their choosing.
There was a RL Romanian philosopher named Emile Cioran who took this position. He once said that he never committed the "crime" of fathering a child, and thus inflicting the torture of life upon it; so these sorts of thoughts have precedence even without chaotic influence.
Therefore, this can be taken to the logical extreme of undertaking a crusade to exterminate all life from the universe in an effort to bring "salvation" from sufferring.
As the renegade chapter of the Purge have done.
Nurgle is benevolent to his children ....

Tzeentch is about knowledge and control, the Will to Power, the urge to enact ones desires upon the universe. Which is why he is opposed to Nurgle; under this interpretation Tzeentch embraces life as something to be pursued, rather than escaped from. Very Nietzschean.
So, Tzeentch cultists would be those in search of power, knowledge and so forth. Politicians, sorcerors, scientists.
Those with ambition and a vision which they want to make reality ... through the power of Tzeentch.

spetswalshe
02-04-2010, 23:15
Such a simple view but somewhat incorrect, nurgle is not despair, it's hope, hope that you will recover from the illness, hope that you won't die, that is how nurgle get's mortal followers.
That is what we see in almost every book in which people turn to nurgle, they pray to him in hope of not getting sick anymore, to avoid death, to help others etc etc.

It's not, actually - Nurgle never lets you recover from an illness, and no true Nurgle cultist would even ask for such a thing. It's simply lving through the illness, and to an extent allowing the illness to make you strong. Plenty of people would pray to be cured, but Nurgle wouldn't answer those prayers - only those who embrace the illness get his vote. He'd let you live through it, and see to it that eventually you would learn to enjoy the pain and disfigurement as it made you special.


My question is not how Tzeentch could topple a world - thats obvious enough for a sneaky bugger like Tzeentch, but rather how he would profit from that cult's "worship".

I'd see it as his worshippers manipulating events in Tzeentch's favour; a Magos conducting illegal (and preferably unethical) research into a mutagen or a street gang plotting to burn down an Enforcer precinct and throw the district into chaos. Change is Tzeentch's remit. But also, he's a master manipulator of people; an Adept poring over dusty books to discover some great secret might pray to him in order to discover it - but Tzeentch will require something in return, pushing the Adept further and further into a web of lies until it seems it'll take a miracle to keep the Arbites from dragging him out of bed and shooting him; and that, of course, is when he belongs to Tzeentch completely.

Tzeentch (or a representative daemon - or even a daemon working on his own personal agenda) can then issue commands as he sees fit - he has so many plans, and they're so much more complicated than 'kill people' or 'hump stuff' - getting his pawn to influence events to Tzeentch's profit. What his profit is, exactly - besides Change itself - isn't clear, but that's just the way the Feathered God likes it. He doesn't have masses of followers (though there's no doubt more than one mutant army he can call upon), but those he does have tend to be in positions of influence.

Nazguire
03-04-2010, 00:03
It's not, actually - Nurgle never lets you recover from an illness, and no true Nurgle cultist would even ask for such a thing. It's simply lving through the illness, and to an extent allowing the illness to make you strong. Plenty of people would pray to be cured, but Nurgle wouldn't answer those prayers - only those who embrace the illness get his vote. He'd let you live through it, and see to it that eventually you would learn to enjoy the pain and disfigurement as it made you special.



I'd see it as his worshippers manipulating events in Tzeentch's favour; a Magos conducting illegal (and preferably unethical) research into a mutagen or a street gang plotting to burn down an Enforcer precinct and throw the district into chaos. Change is Tzeentch's remit. But also, he's a master manipulator of people; an Adept poring over dusty books to discover some great secret might pray to him in order to discover it - but Tzeentch will require something in return, pushing the Adept further and further into a web of lies until it seems it'll take a miracle to keep the Arbites from dragging him out of bed and shooting him; and that, of course, is when he belongs to Tzeentch completely.
Tzeentch (or a representative daemon - or even a daemon working on his own personal agenda) can then issue commands as he sees fit - he has so many plans, and they're so much more complicated than 'kill people' or 'hump stuff' - getting his pawn to influence events to Tzeentch's profit. What his profit is, exactly - besides Change itself - isn't clear, but that's just the way the Feathered God likes it. He doesn't have masses of followers (though there's no doubt more than one mutant army he can call upon), but those he does have tend to be in positions of influence.

I honestly see Tzeentch with having so many plans that they are all contradicting one another (hence why he hasn't taken over the galaxy yet). He is the God of change also, and believes in change, for merely the sake of change. I am pretty sure in the Chaos 3.5 Codex it states something to that effect.

merghmer
03-04-2010, 03:36
No, you are wrong and he is right. Chaos Sorcerers are psykers for the game-purpose. NOT ALL sorcerers are psykers, Necrosius for example was apothecary of Death Guard pre-nurgle incident, and right now he is sorcerer(and not psyker).

Nope.

Necrosius is a psyker. Under TT rules ALL sorcerors are affected by anti-psyker units.

I've never come across one that wasn't.

ETA: Necrosius probably wasn't a psyker before he turned to Chaos, but he is one now. Although the Dark Gods can bestow psyker powers on any human - this would be very rare, so even in a tzeentch cult of thousands or tens of thousands barely a handful would be elevated to sorcerors, and out of that handful most were probably already born psykers.

merghmer
03-04-2010, 03:42
Tzeentch (or a representative daemon - or even a daemon working on his own personal agenda) can then issue commands as he sees fit - he has so many plans, and they're so much more complicated than 'kill people' or 'hump stuff' - getting his pawn to influence events to Tzeentch's profit. What his profit is, exactly - besides Change itself - isn't clear, but that's just the way the Feathered God likes it. He doesn't have masses of followers (though there's no doubt more than one mutant army he can call upon), but those he does have tend to be in positions of influence.

That's all good - but since the strength of a God is proportionate to the number of followers, and we both agree that Tzeentch: a) wouldn't exactly have masses of followers, more isolated numbers, and b) even in his cults, only certain highly influential people would be directly worshipping him while the lower-rungs are fodder to be manipulated.

So would this not theoretically make him the least powerful Chaos God, unlike Khorne or Slaanesh which are being constantly fed by the actions of their underlings?

Askil the Undecided
03-04-2010, 05:04
Merghmer, you clearly need some thing explained to you.


Nope.

Necrosius is a psyker. Under TT rules ALL sorcerors are affected by anti-psyker units.

Which proves nothing but that the rules were made in a uniform fashion for balance puposes.



I've never come across one that wasn't.

Well then you clearly haven't paid much attention. I never said one couldn't be both (and if I gave that impression I'm really not bothered because it was rather obvious) however one doesn't have to be one to become the other.



ETA: Necrosius probably wasn't a psyker before he turned to Chaos, but he is one now. Although the Dark Gods can bestow psyker powers on any human - this would be very rare, so even in a tzeentch cult of thousands or tens of thousands barely a handful would be elevated to sorcerors, and out of that handful most were probably already born psykers.

While this could be true it's also beside the point in the employ of the dark gods sorcery is standard practice for anyone with psyker powers (thus the naming convention that Chaos psykers are called Sorcerers.) But why would creatures that can grant powers greater than that of any natural psyker wait for that one to be born an grow up when they could simply grant power to the rituals no matter who used them.


That's all good - but since the strength of a God is proportionate to the number of followers, and we both agree that Tzeentch: a) wouldn't exactly have masses of followers, more isolated numbers, and b) even in his cults, only certain highly influential people would be directly worshipping him while the lower-rungs are fodder to be manipulated.


THis is simply untrue Chaos gods are not empowered only by their followers, Tzeentch draws power from plotting, manipulation and intrigue so every pawn moved by any conspiricy is an act that grants him some power and is and act of worship if done in his name.



So would this not theoretically make him the least powerful Chaos God, unlike Khorne or Slaanesh which are being constantly fed by the actions of their underlings?

You don't really seem to understand the concept of chaos worship do you? These gods are real being that can grant gifts beyond dreaming. As such most knowing followers of chaos are fanatically devoted to their patron, dedicating their every remaining moment of existance to their service in the hope of becoming noticed and eventually attaining immortality.

merghmer
03-04-2010, 05:51
Which proves nothing but that the rules were made in a uniform fashion for balance puposes.

I see.
So what you're trying to say in a roundabout way is that fluff only applies when it supports your opinion.
Otherwise we can wave it off as "game balance purpose". Amiright? ;)


Well then you clearly haven't paid much attention. I never said one couldn't be both (and if I gave that impression I'm really not bothered because it was rather obvious) however one doesn't have to be one to become the other.

Well the fluff and rules say otherwise.


While this could be true it's also beside the point in the employ of the dark gods sorcery is standard practice for anyone with psyker powers (thus the naming convention that Chaos psykers are called Sorcerers.) But why would creatures that can grant powers greater than that of any natural psyker wait for that one to be born an grow up when they could simply grant power to the rituals no matter who used them.

Or rather because only psykers are actually capable of sorcery.

You seem to be totally mixed up between making a pact with daemons/getting daemons to do one's bidding and sorcery, which is utilizing and shaping warp-borne powers to do one's bidding in a destructive, chaotic way.. While some sorcerors do make pacts with daemons to boost their power this is a completely different issue.

If your explanation were true Khorne followers would never be able to make any pacts with daemons nor would a mighty Khorne champion be able to summon them to do his/her bidding, as the fluff clearly says the Blood God hates sorcery.

Any daemons summoned would, as a tiny sliver of Khorne's essence, proceed to then slaughter the summoner if that were so.




THis is simply untrue Chaos gods are not empowered only by their followers, Tzeentch draws power from plotting, manipulation and intrigue so every pawn moved by any conspiricy is an act that grants him some power and is and act of worship if done in his name.

You don't really seem to understand the concept of chaos worship do you? These gods are real being that can grant gifts beyond dreaming. As such most knowing followers of chaos are fanatically devoted to their patron, dedicating their every remaining moment of existance to their service in the hope of becoming noticed and eventually attaining immortality.

The fluff is contradictory in that aspect.

On one hand you have the famous "every lie told empowers Tzeentch, every look of lust make Slaanesh stronger, etc" believe, which is well and good.

But then again, sometimes the fluff seems to make a distinction between the the type of lust, killing, scheming, etc.

After all, orks get angry, orks love fightin' and stompin' but they never empower Khorne, and hardly any fall to worship of the Blood God. Rather their emotions empower Gork/Mork, so from this we can see its not the act of killing, rather its who you kill for.

Take your example of "Tzeench drawing power by manipulation and plotting" and put it against my example of Dark Eldar. Their machiavellian society is practically built on lying scheming plotting and everything in between but AFAIK they've never been stated to empower Tzeentch (when in reality they should, since Eldar emotions are so much stronger than humans), nor have any officially fallen to Tzeentch worship.

So why should a simple administratum official who schemes to be Governor someday be more vulnerable to fall to Tzeentch worship any more than a DE warrior who plots to kill his sybarite squad leader and replace him? Or are Eldar somehow less corruptible than humans?

Askil the Undecided
03-04-2010, 09:45
Hmm well...


Anyone can be a sorceror. All it requires is opportunity, and a willingness to enter into unwise deals. Opportunity can come at any time, in any form. A cursed book, a magical ring, a special alignment of the planets, or even just a willing mind. Contact is made, often by the warp power, and a deal is struck. Then you're a sorceror.

Loks like someone agrees with me.


Exactly. In dark heresy, the only way to gain physic powers (outside of being a sanctioned psyker) is a pact with the dark gods.

you can either be born with it, or have it thrust upon you.

Quite true but this is not sorcery.


I see.
So what you're trying to say in a roundabout way is that fluff only applies when it supports your opinion.


As are you, albeit you with do so with quite apparently more limited reading and knowledge in the subject.

You are trying to claim that chaos only gants otherworldy powers of ritual witchcraft to people who already have within them power without it. You think the gods really hand out lots a of psychic powers just to have their servant not use them.

Also you seem to be positing that the corrupt sorcery of chaos artifacts is only dangerous in the hands of psykers.

Lord Asgul
03-04-2010, 10:56
I agree with Askil here.

Merghmer obviously doesn't want to accept that he is wrong, Askil knows what he is talking about when it comes to all things Chaos related.

DantesInferno
03-04-2010, 11:17
The fluff is contradictory in that aspect.

On one hand you have the famous "every lie told empowers Tzeentch, every look of lust make Slaanesh stronger, etc" believe, which is well and good.

But then again, sometimes the fluff seems to make a distinction between the the type of lust, killing, scheming, etc.

After all, orks get angry, orks love fightin' and stompin' but they never empower Khorne, and hardly any fall to worship of the Blood God. Rather their emotions empower Gork/Mork, so from this we can see its not the act of killing, rather its who you kill for.

Take your example of "Tzeench drawing power by manipulation and plotting" and put it against my example of Dark Eldar. Their machiavellian society is practically built on lying scheming plotting and everything in between but AFAIK they've never been stated to empower Tzeentch (when in reality they should, since Eldar emotions are so much stronger than humans), nor have any officially fallen to Tzeentch worship.

So why should a simple administratum official who schemes to be Governor someday be more vulnerable to fall to Tzeentch worship any more than a DE warrior who plots to kill his sybarite squad leader and replace him? Or are Eldar somehow less corruptible than humans?

This isn't particularly a contradiction. In fact, there's a fairly simple way to resolve the apparent inconsistency.

We know from various sources that similar emotions flow together in the warp. On the local scale, Eldar anger has a much closer similarity to other Eldar anger than it does to human anger. So Eldar anger emotions will run together in the warp, forming regional swirls of Eldar emotion in the warp (and this swirl of warp energy is what produces the consciousness we call "Khaine").

However, it's also worth looking at things on a broader scale. Eldar anger emotions are much closer to human anger emotions than they are to, say, Eldar or human hope emotions. Same for, say, Jokaero anger, or Hrud anger. So there will form a gigantic storm of non-racially specific anger emotions, which includes within it sub-vortices of particular instances or racial flavours of anger.

Thus you'll often get different racial gods with different self-consciousnesses (say, Khaine and Gork) existing within the same greater warp vortex of rage emotions. The dominant rage-god depends on the state of the material universe - so at M41, humans are generating the bulk of warp emotion and the rage god is a predominantly human god - Khorne. In M1, on the other hand, humanity was a primitive population on a backwater planet in the Eldar Empire, and presumably the human impact on the greater warp-vortex was negligible.

Where a race has a sufficient impact on the Warp to generate specific racial sub-vortices of emotion which rise to consciousness, it's clear that these are the natural gods for them to worship - e.g. Gork and Mork. Where races no longer have sufficient impact on the Warp to generate conscious racially specific gods, their emotions flow into the greater pools of emotions of that type (e.g. the Eldar after their racial apocalypse during the Fall).

NightrawenII
03-04-2010, 11:24
Nope.

Necrosius is a psyker. Under TT rules ALL sorcerors are affected by anti-psyker units.
Nope.:evilgrin:
The Necrosius isn't psyker. He doesn't have a psyker special rule.


I've never come across one that wasn't.
Then your fluff-knowledge is somewhat limited.


ETA: Necrosius probably wasn't a psyker before he turned to Chaos, but he is one now. Although the Dark Gods can bestow psyker powers on any human - this would be very rare, so even in a tzeentch cult of thousands or tens of thousands barely a handful would be elevated to sorcerors, and out of that handful most were probably already born psykers.
No. All true Tzeentch cultists are sorcerors.


I see.
Well the fluff and rules say otherwise.
Dark Heresy want to disagree with everything you said so far about sorcery and psychic powers.


You seem to be totally mixed up between making a pact with daemons/getting daemons to do one's bidding and sorcery, which is utilizing and shaping warp-borne powers to do one's bidding in a destructive, chaotic way.. While some sorcerors do make pacts with daemons to boost their power this is a completely different issue.
Ehm no. The sorcery is meddling with deamons.
Psykers are people with natural talent for warp-borne powers.
Sorcerers are people with warp-borne powers gained/boosted throught pacts with daemons.


If your explanation were true Khorne followers would never be able to make any pacts with daemons nor would a mighty Khorne champion be able to summon them to do his/her bidding, as the fluff clearly says the Blood God hates sorcery.
No, Khorne hates magic or spellcraft, but he doesn't mind blessings or summoning.;) Actually, the sorcerers of Khorne do exists, they are called Daemonancers and specialize in summoning Khornes immortal servants on the battlefield.

The pestilent 1
03-04-2010, 13:58
Immunity / acceptance for Nurgle.

Seriously, if you don't get why immunity to despair is an attractive option, I couldn't explain it to you :p

Merrily summed up by; An eternal life. At an eternal price.


As for Tzeentch, simply power.
Being able to manipulate people is a HUGE power, just ask any and all politicians in the world.


On a slight tangent, Slaanesh is the one and only one that would never appeal to me, for the simple fact that every piece of fluff ever states they lose feeling over time, and must resort to greater and greater highs to feel even the slighest pleasure.
Yeah, no thanks.


(Nurgle appealing most. There isn't much I wouldn't pay to be free of Bipolar depression, let me tell you)

spetswalshe
03-04-2010, 17:48
DantesInferno gives a good accounting of emotion-based Gods. Tzeentch was often positioned as the strongest of the Big Four (though I think that's Khorne now), despite having the fewest followers - mainly because he and his lads work toward a specific agenda and are much better at manipulating events in the long term than Khorne's shortsighted 'kill everything until you die' or Slaanesh's similar 'rape everything until they catch you'. Mere numbers of worshippers doesn't cut it - otherwise, every time Khorne's boys lost a battle he'd get weaker, when in actual fact it's the act of rage and hot-blooded murder that makes him strong. A hedonist makes Slaanesh strong even if he's not a cultist - though presumably it's better if he is. Similarly, the despair of an otherwise pious world in the midst of a famine would power Nurgle, even if no one said his name - and a bacteria that turns men into snakes would raise a chuckle from Tzeentch.


Take your example of "Tzeench drawing power by manipulation and plotting" and put it against my example of Dark Eldar. Their machiavellian society is practically built on lying scheming plotting and everything in between but AFAIK they've never been stated to empower Tzeentch (when in reality they should, since Eldar emotions are so much stronger than humans), nor have any officially fallen to Tzeentch worship.

So why should a simple administratum official who schemes to be Governor someday be more vulnerable to fall to Tzeentch worship any more than a DE warrior who plots to kill his sybarite squad leader and replace him? Or are Eldar somehow less corruptible than humans?

Well, Eldar clearly are somehow less corruptible than humans - hence why most Champions are human, rather than Eldar (since their souls remain together once they enter the Warp, one could assume that an Eldar soul is stronger, and hence more effort to break up and consume). But that's beside the point.

I think Dark Eldar society - or rather, the individuals who scheme and plot for personal gain - would empower Tzeentch. It's not his first choice; he probably considers manipulation of events for mere personal gain as amateurish or trite. However (and it's a big however), Dark Eldar society in general probably doesn't, because most of it goes on in the Webway, which I understand as a Big Four no-go area.

madd0ct0r
03-04-2010, 18:03
not entirely no go, slaanesh can 'just' drain souls even there.

but i think it's like screaming in a padded cell. There are lots more, bigger and more readily accesible source for tzeentech

The Devourer
03-04-2010, 20:49
Nurgle cults appear when people are desperate. If your city is dying from a plague then theirs a good chance someone there has considered begging nurglw for help. Nurgle also has the power to make you much tougher and increase the length of your life. If you are afraid of death nurgle can save you at the cost of being infected with all kinds of horrible diseases.

Tzeentch cults are usually run by people who are trying to gather knowlegde or scheme. With Tzeentch's help some random unknown politian could rise to controling an entire planet, or a group of scholars could discover some unknown and very powerful information. Tzeentch is all about manupulating which is something very popular when you want to make yourself more important.

merghmer
05-04-2010, 01:32
Nope.:evilgrin:
The Necrosius isn't psyker. He doesn't have a psyker special rule.

I see. So is he carrying a force weapon for the lulz then?
Also, he can use Nurgle's Rot - which your beloved Dark Heresy terms a "psychic power".


No. All true Tzeentch cultists are sorcerors.

Dark Heresy want to disagree with everything you said so far about sorcery and psychic powers.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't.

All it says is what I've said, that Tzeentch can grant psychic powers like boon of Tzeentch to those he favors.

In fact its quite clear that your either very mistaken or straight out lying to save your friend - even in the Thousand Sons far from ALL members were sorcerors, more like a handful.


Ehm no. The sorcery is meddling with deamons.
Psykers are people with natural talent for warp-borne powers.
Sorcerers are people with warp-borne powers gained/boosted throught pacts with daemons.

Incorrect.
Anyone who uses warp-borne powers in a chaotic manner is already a sorceror.
Hence why the TS were already noted as dabbling into sorcery BEFORE they even fell completely under the thrall of Tzeentch.


No, Khorne hates magic or spellcraft, but he doesn't mind blessings or summoning.;) Actually, the sorcerers of Khorne do exists, they are called Daemonancers and specialize in summoning Khornes immortal servants on the battlefield.

Untrue, again.

If summoning of Daemons WAS sorcerors, daemonancers would be called (wait for it)..........sorcerors. Duh.

The fact they aren't puts your fanopinion down for the count for good.

Firaxin
05-04-2010, 01:41
merghmer, i'm going to try to put this nicely, since you might not be a troll, but you just have no idea what you're talking about.


even in the Thousand Sons far from ALL members were sorcerors, more like a handful.
Actually, if you've read the book, they pretty much were all sorcerers. It only becomes a 'handful' after the Rubric is cast, which turns the majority into empty suits of armor.


Anyone who uses warp-borne powers in a chaotic manner is already a sorceror.
Incorrect. Vaun is not a sorcerer, for example.


Hence why the TS were already noted as dabbling into sorcery BEFORE they even fell completely under the thrall of Tzeentch.
Again, if you've read their book, it makes note that they're all accompanied by at least one 'tutelary.' These turn out to be daemon-familiars, which turn on them in the end.

As far as Daemonancers go, Sorcery has more to do with making pacts with daemons than simply summoning them.

madd0ct0r
05-04-2010, 01:46
whew. touchy much?

right. I've flicked but up through the thread to find your bone of contention.

"All sorcerers are psykers."

ok. what evidence do we have on either side?

NightrawenII
05-04-2010, 11:13
I see. So is he carrying a force weapon for the lulz then?
Also, he can use Nurgle's Rot - which your beloved Dark Heresy terms a "psychic power".
Then take your copy of Vraks III, look at the page 143 and tell me where in his descriptions is line: Necrosius is psyker.

Bad for you, there isn't any. Instead there is:
"Necrosius cast aside his past learning and cherished role as a healer of his battle brothers and gave himself, blighted soul and rotten body to the lore of death and the pursuit of Daemoniac sorcery, excelling as a master of the dark arts."

You can argue all you want, but the Necrosius isn't psyker, he is ONLY sorcerer.



Dark Heresy want to disagree with everything you said so far about sorcery and psychic powers.

No it doesn't.
Yes, it does.


All it says is what I've said, that Tzeentch can grant psychic powers like boon of Tzeentch to those he favors.

In fact its quite clear that your either very mistaken or straight out lying to save your friend - even in the Thousand Sons far from ALL members were sorcerors, more like a handful.
Wrong, 90% of TSs were psykers or sorcerers. And, I was talking about true Tzeentch cultists, not only about TSs.

And please refrain from accusation, it doesn't help discusion any bit and makes you look like spoiled child.


Incorrect.
Anyone who uses warp-borne powers in a chaotic manner is already a sorceror.
Hence why the TS were already noted as dabbling into sorcery BEFORE they even fell completely under the thrall of Tzeentch.
Can you tell me what you call "chaotic manner"? Because I don't understand your terminology.


Untrue, again.

If summoning of Daemons WAS sorcerors, daemonancers would be called (wait for it)..........sorcerors. Duh.

The fact they aren't puts your fanopinion down for the count for good.
Summoning daemons is more sorcerous than blasting your enemies with lightnings.:rolleyes:

spetswalshe
05-04-2010, 15:18
right. I've flicked but up through the thread to find your bone of contention.

"All sorcerers are psykers."

ok. what evidence do we have on either side?

I think an actual summing up would be good, though I'm biased and hence not the person to do it.

Dark Heresy, Radical's Handbook;
'The arduous study and strength of will required to become a psyker of ability drives many who lack the diligence, opportunity or innate talent, to look for what some foolishly see as an easier path power and even those with very limited or no latent psychic ability can become powerful Sorcerors.'


'Sorcery is treated in the game using the same mechanics as psychic powers, and any of the psychic powers listed in Dark Heresy are available as sorcery to avoid needless duplication.'

Then goes on to say;


All Sorcery powers are treated as psychic effects... specialised defences that protect against Psychic Powers also defend against Sorcery.

However, in context of the previous two quotes, I think we can assume that's for simplicity's sake - no one wants to carry around a psy-dampener and a sorcery-dampener, too.

'Sorcery' is a talent available to players - whereas psyker powers are restricted to those who have the Psyker background, or take the Nascent Psyker class. It also states that many rogue psykers become sorcerors - clearly meaning a distinction between the two. However, it's also clear that the lines between psyker and sorceror can be blurred - specifically when a psyker is dealing with Chaos.

Chaos Rituals, those of summoning and the like, are treated seperately - you don't need to be a Sorceror to perform them - but equally, we can see this is a game decision, too, because Rituals are essentially a rather more drawn-out version of a Sorcerous power; detailing the minutae of what is required to summon a daemon and having the players quest (to research it correctly, align the proper ingredients and so on) is much more fun than simply getting them to roll a dice. If a person was forced to do this every time he required a magical effect, though, the game would become immensely dull for him; so we have Sorcery, where a few words are spoken. The same thing is true in WFRP; you have various Magic Arcana for day-to-day use, and detailed Rituals for something complicated but not immediately needed; summoning a daemon, permanently transmuting materials, etc. While a Ritual does not require one to have the Sorcery talent, it's pretty clear that Rituals and Sorcery are basically the same thing.

gitburna
05-04-2010, 19:23
normally in this kind of thread one just waits to see what MvS has to say about it....I might be surprised but i'd guess that he'd be more closely aligned to Askil, Spetswalshe et al than to Merghmer.

That is to say that tzeentchian cults are political and or sorcery based. And that sorcery is generally very different to psychic power. Generally speaking sorcery tends to involve pacts with greater powers whereas psychic power comes from the "self."

Askil the Undecided
05-04-2010, 23:02
Anyone who uses sorcery is a sorcerer. No matter what else they are.

Just like anyone who lies is a liar and anyone who paints is a painter.

To believe otherwise is just to fall prey to the commonly attatched connotation that to claim such a title one must be an expert or professional in that field.

Sorcery is an art, meaning that while it's not exactly easy it's something people can just try to do also this makes how uptight the Imperium is about tainted artifacts make sense because if artifacts were safe in the hands on non-psykers rather than

Merghmer has fallen to a confirmation bias, this is caused by there not being many non-psyker sorcerers prominently featured in the lore, but neither is there a large number of prominently featured non-psyker Inquisitors, pleasant doctors, carefree civilians or clothes factories but we don't assume they don't exit do we?

Tehkonrad
06-04-2010, 11:27
I think askil has said all that really needs to be said.

I also think that Tzneetch cults might not neccesarily have everyone worshipping Tzneetch, perhaps the magister has just duped a loyal congregation into thinking their worshipping the Emperor but they are in fact performing Tzneetchian rituals, I'm sure that would amuse Tzneetch no end.

AndrewGPaul
06-04-2010, 11:42
Another thing that may be confusing people is that the effect (and I suppose, the 'power') behind Sorcery is the same as that behind Psychic ability. It's perfectly reasonable for anti-psyker devices to work against sorcerous powers, because they're the same thing.

The difference, and it's an important difference, is where the power comes from. A Psyker generates or channels the Warp energy himself. A Sorceror is merely a pathway for Warp energy generated by the Sorceror's patron (usually a God or powerful Daemon). In a way, it's the difference between using a clockwork radio and simply plugging it into the mains electricity.

At least, that's how I understand things (and rationalise the in-game simplifaction of Psykers and Sorcerors using the same rules).

moose
06-04-2010, 11:52
This thread is atrocious, stop the mudslinging and get it out of the psyker vs sorcerer arguments.

Please discuss the contents of nurgle and tzeentch cults. This was a really interesting thread till the trolls and flamers appeared.


Moose.

MvS
06-04-2010, 11:52
...what MvS has to say about it....I might be surprised but i'd guess that he'd be more closely aligned to Askil, Spetswalshe et al than to Merghmer.
Indeed. There's not much I think I could add to the discussion here.


Generally speaking sorcery tends to involve pacts with greater powers whereas psychic power comes from the "self."
That's how I've always read it too.

Psychic power is still channeling the energy that is the Warp, but this ios done through some sort of 'natural' aptitude - like the difference between someone born seeing and someone born blind.

Sorcery is probably much easier to master if you are also a psyker, because you already have an open conduit to the Warp and therefore are more likely to attract daemons and other entities to 'deal' with or learn from.

That said, Sorcery does indeed appear to be an art/science that can be learned with enough diligence and access to the right resources. Being a sorcerer may well mean that you are eventually able to open your mind up to have the powers and abilities of a psyker, but I imagine that this (returning to my sight analogy above) would be like being given bionic eyes by an external souirce rather than being born with naturally fucntional eyes.

Anyway, powerful psykers who also study sorcery tend to be the most powerful and dangerous of all 'spell-casters' in the 40K imagery. Just look at Magnus, Ahriman and perhaps even the Emperor.

EDIT:

Nurgle cults seem to be turned to mostly by the desperate - those who are past caring. Tzeentchian cults could be formed or joined by anyone at all who longs for some sort of change, who plots and plans, who wants to take control of their own future or who is interested in sorcery.

AndrewGPaul
06-04-2010, 11:55
Back on topic, it seems to me that Nurgle is the most British of the Chaos Gods. :) After all, the mindset of his followers is to just knuckle down and get on with it. Your leg may have turned green and smells funny, but never mind, it could be worse, eh? At least it's not fallen off. Mustn't grumble.

Compare Slaanesh (all that sex and lying about? seems awfully mucky), Khorne (wouldn't want to cause a disturbance now, would we) and Tzeentch (shifty looking fellow - I'd keep an eye on 'im).

TheOverlord
06-04-2010, 14:06
So Tzeentch is the God of all Chavs?

madd0ct0r
06-04-2010, 14:55
I can see some tzeentech cult arising from 'mutual support clubs'.

you know, a semi-secret society for rich/powerful/ambitious people to network and ensure their business deals don't conflict with one another.

the masons are an obvious example. The Lions too, although they're more heavily orientated towards charity.

Even at this low key stage there's a certain amount of power going to Tzeentech, even if it's without the focus of ritual.
It would only take one cultist 'in the know' as it were, or the introduction of a 'lucky mascot' to the club for Imperial Dogma to start to distort.



Nurgle would (and is pleased to be) the last refuge of the desperate. I imagine his cults are much more popular amongst the poor and needy. Depressed rich people tend to anaesthetise themselves through other means, landing more in Slaanesh's territory.

Nazguire
06-04-2010, 14:58
The thing I like about Chaos cults is that I'm willing to bet almost all wouldn't start out as something malevolent.

I can see a Tzeentchian cult arising when someone prays to a family heirloom under the full moon for prosperity in his family. Something weird happens that benefits him, so he spreads the word, that his ancestor has answered his prayers (perhaps spurred on by the Emperor) and the village start praying to this family heirloom for abundant food/water, wealth and happiness.

People see good things happening and tgey continue to do so. Village leader gets a vision of a shining figure in his dreams and he starts creating idols to this apparition. Perhaps they think it's the Emperor.

Soon, someone exhibits sorcerous powers after requesting from his deceased father for help, powers that people perceive as a blessing (causing crops to grow quickly, or telekinetic powers to help with constructing houses) and this person quickly begins to rise in the ranks as a revered figure.

Then another person sees patterns in nature, patterns they deem too suspicious to beca coincidence, believe it's their ancestors speaking, and quickly incorporate this into their worship ( now resembling rituals ).

Another person dreams of a shining avian figure who speaks of a new golden age for the village led by that person. This person tells everyone and the idols are given wings and a beak. Convuluted patterns appear with more and more regularity and more 'blessed' ones start to appear in the population.

Then a harvest fails spectacularly. Crops wither and die, livestock are born wildly mutated and women still birth. The village panics and pray to their 'ancestors' asking why it happened. The 'blessed' ones use their powers as much as powerful but all they do is make it worse.

Desperation sets in and somewhere, someone suggests a sacrifice. First a pig or grox. That only succeeds in bringing purple rain down upon them. Then a herd of sheep, but that only causes a 'blessed' one to spontaneously mutate hideously as his powers overwhelm him or a pact with the 'ancestors' goes awry.

The first human sacrifice comes after the religious leader (long since supplanting the mayor/chief/lord as leader of the village) has a fierce debate with the public. An old crone, on her last legs, is killed in a ritualistic manner.

Crops miraculously begin to show signs of recovery and the religious leader glows with an inner light. Praise is given to the feathered idol. Someone dreams of a name to give the power of their 'ancestors' and it sticks.

The villagers pray to the newly christened Tzun regularly as their 'blessed' ones seek out more of Tzun's kind (see: daemons) to bless and help their people. In order to prevent the catastrophe that happened before, every turn of the month an old man/woman is killed.

Women give birth to beaked children, who are viewed as children of Tzun. A child predicts the future with chilling precision and is revered. The religious leader is found mewling in his bed babbling out of a second mouth in his navel. Killed, another more zealous follower is elected who brings forth more radical worship.

Three is decided as the number of Tzun (after the three original sacrifices) and three people each month as sacrificed ( baby, adult, senior). Those without the ability to use psychic abilities or have no aptitude for sorcery are shunned and used as menial labourers.

Soon enough the social order disintegrates as more mutation sets in, more revelations are discovered in dreams and heretics are executed. Those who were moderate in their Tzun-worship turn extreme to avoid the beaked heretic killers. Livestock that are born as mutated spawn are not killed, but held up as paragons of Tzun. The village goes mad and devolved into a truly horrific cult of Tzeentch from the most innocent of sources.