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Godzooky
03-04-2010, 15:05
Afternoon, all.

I have just taken delivery of my brand new Blood Angels codex, and I have to say I'm enjoying it very much.

One particular bit of fluff in there fired my imagination with regard to the identity and origin of the Sanguinor. The tale I refer to is called Blood on Khartas and features a return of Sanguinius' old foe Ka'Bandha.

The below snippet sparked my interest:

"The Sanguinor was far swifter than his foe, gracefully evading each swing of Ka'Bandha's rune axe, almost as if he knew every feat of which the beast was capable..."

An interesting hint.

With the Legion of the Damned as a precedent, do you think it's possible that the Emperor somehow managed to preserve the escaping essence of Sanguinius in order for a part of him to manifest when his sons were really up the creek?

I think it's an elegant, and quite moving, little notion to think there's a part of their primarch still looking after his beloved sons. What do you all think to this idea?

jesusjohn
03-04-2010, 15:39
I like it, it has a weirdly emotional quality, a touch of sadness and less grim/dark.

Hellebore
03-04-2010, 15:45
It makes Sanguinius' selfless and futile death far less noble and tragic though.

Hellebore

Godzooky
03-04-2010, 15:49
It makes Sanguinius' selfless and futile death far less noble and tragic though.

Hellebore

It wouldn't have to detract from the selfless heroism of his original act.

It would add a certain poignancy that his love for his chapter endures even beyond death. And I'm not proposing it is Sanguinius, merely a captured aspect of his intention. I'm probably just talking rubbish, though. :D

ShaiAhlude
03-04-2010, 16:03
There is a sort of precedence for this, as Leman Russ vowed to return to the Space Wolves "At the Wolftime".
Be interesting if they DID do a story/book/fluff about the "end times", Russ would recognize Sanguinor as partly Sanguinius...

Godzooky
03-04-2010, 16:07
There is a sort of precedence for this, as Leman Russ vowed to return to the Space Wolves "At the Wolftime".
Be interesting if they DID do a story/book/fluff about the "end times", Russ would recognize Sanguinor as partly Sanguinius...

Careful, the next Space Wolves codex might now feature a massive metal wolf that appears unannounced to aid his beleaguered Space Wolves. Especially if Matt Ward does it. The Lemanor, perhaps... :)

tezdal
03-04-2010, 16:14
It makes Sanguinius' selfless and futile death far less noble and tragic though.

Hellebore

Agreed, like Jesus appearing in a tortilla chip, it rubs the magic off the moment

Godzooky
03-04-2010, 16:26
Agreed, like Jesus appearing in a tortilla chip, it rubs the magic off the moment

It depends on how much value you place in this Jebus character in the first place, I guess. Personally I prefer tortilla chips.

RedSarge
03-04-2010, 16:50
So because the essence of Sanguinius/Sanguinor continues to fight, in 40k.
Makes it less special for you?

I don't think that im in the minority when I think it is a creative and interesting idea.
Chaos has the daemon Primarchs, the Imperium has it's saints, Sanguinor is one of them.

I don't shame GW for using an amazing character like Sanguinius, in some way, in 'modern' 40k.

If a future codex had a Primarch return, and thus rules.. that would be a little too far.

PaddyF
03-04-2010, 16:52
Warhammer 41k

This Millenium, he who is without sin shall kick the first ass.

DeadlySquirrel
03-04-2010, 16:56
It depends on how much value you place in this Jebus character in the first place, I guess. Personally I prefer tortilla chips.

This. Hats off to you, sir.



I think sanguinor is a hint towards the blood angel omnibus... fake sanguinous much??

Fallenity
03-04-2010, 19:38
I'd imagine the Emperor was a bit more focused on Horus at the time. But the idea does have merit. Sanguinius always struck me as the type of Primarch who (even more) loved his legion, his sons. While he hasn't been that fleshed out in the HH yet (to my knowledge, correct me if I've missed something) and didn't have any special psychic capability, I could imagine him at least having the desire to protect his sons after death. But then this would turn from the grim, gothic, cut-my-wrists 40k we so love into happy happy, through-the-power-of-love 40k.

But the idea does have merit. Or maybe Sanguinor is just meant to embody the best qualities of Sanguinius? I haven't read the new BA codex, so I admit I'm on uncertain ground and making guesses at best.

Vhalyar
03-04-2010, 19:43
Doesn't it also says elsewhere in the codex that the Sanguinor is theorized to be a psychic construct from the collective will of blood angels in a desperate situation?

It'd make sense that they are wishing so hard to win, even when losing, that they'd bend the universe into agreeing with them, in the form of the Sanguinor. Kind of like orks.

Ithaka
03-04-2010, 19:47
Well, The Emperor made a point of psychically annihalating Horus' soul so he could never return in a new/ reincarnated body. Which implies it's something that could happen (with or without the Chaos gods influence).
Then again, it should definatly be left ammbiguous.

massey
03-04-2010, 20:14
Sanguinor could be anything from the ghost of Sanguinius, to the collective psychic power of the Blood Angels, to some guy who stows away on their ships when they're not looking, to Dante playing dress-up. Leaving it vague makes it cool.

Badger[Fr]
03-04-2010, 21:07
Doesn't it also says elsewhere in the codex that the Sanguinor is theorized to be a psychic construct from the collective will of blood angels in a desperate situation?
That would actually makes sense. The Sanguinor could be some kind of Imperial Daemon...

Joewrightgm
03-04-2010, 21:13
Also a bit like Luther ranting in the Rock. He has no need of repentance or absolution, the Lion will absolve him of his sins. That time draws near, and the Lion close with it.

This line, when I first read it in the Dark Angels book, actually raised the hair on back of my neck and I started a Dark Angels army. The Sanguinor's story is great too, showing himself only when needed.

PaddyF
03-04-2010, 21:19
Demons and Angels you say? Could this be some kind of Di Vinci Code?

Chem-Dog
03-04-2010, 22:13
Space Marines can have Living Saints, Sanguinor could be just that.
Blood Angels are implanted with the memories of their Primarch, so it's possible that the being known as Sanguinor does indeed have memories of fighting Ka'Bandha. Sanguinius was also prescient, it's not unthinkable that this trait has rubbed off on his sons via his Geneseed.

kraken
03-04-2010, 22:26
The sanguinor is a horrible awful terrible rubbishy thing , much like Canis Wolfittity mcwolfwolfborn.

I love Tycho from the new book a great characterful hidden gem, just makes the whole Sanguinor thing more jarring mind.....

Znail
03-04-2010, 22:47
The entire reason behind the Red Thirst is the psycic resonance from the death of Sangunius. Its not that farfetched that the same passed down essence of the primarch could bring back a ghost of himself. A Chapter having such a strong link to their dead Primarch does make things like that a bit less absurd.

Sarevok
03-04-2010, 22:52
I don't see the point of Sanguinor both from rules and fluff when you've already got Mephiston as Mini-Sanq.

Vhalyar
03-04-2010, 23:16
Mephiston is a Space Marine leader.

Sanguinor is a psychic Space Marine ninja ghost. Also, he more or less sails on the currents of the immaterium, so that makes him part pirate. Since he's wearing Space Marine armor, that makes him part robot too.

I'm sure Mephiston is jealous.

Bunnahabhain
03-04-2010, 23:26
Demons and Angels you say? Could this be some kind of Di Vinci Code?

No, GW, even the Black Library, have higher writing standards than that....

The Sanguinor seems fine to me. It's a nice development of the background, unlike say, deep striking land raiders, blood-xyz1, storm ravens, blood-xyz2 alliences with necrons, blood-xyz3, magna-grapples, blood-xyz4,......

kraken
03-04-2010, 23:51
yeah the new blood angels Bloodbikes with bloodwheels and bloodbolters

the 'bloodstrike' missiles *shudder*

Gensuke626
04-04-2010, 00:12
Sanguinor could be anything from the ghost of Sanguinius, to the collective psychic power of the Blood Angels, to some guy who stows away on their ships when they're not looking, to Dante playing dress-up. Leaving it vague makes it cool.

Knowing that he must save the universe from the forces of Chaos, Sanguinius, Primarch of the Blood Angels faced the traitor Horus in single combat, and died.

He awoke to find himself trapped in a different time, facing mirror images that were not his own and driven by an unknown force to change the universe for the better. His only guide on this journey calls himself El, an observer from his own time who appears in the form of a hologram that only San can see and hear. And so the Primarch finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap, will be the leap home.

---Cue theme Music---

jesusjohn
04-04-2010, 00:27
i feel you may not be taking this seriously :).

Also i now have Sanguary Priest Who as a concept compete with cybermastif and anoying tag along companion.

Joewrightgm
04-04-2010, 01:20
OK, let's be real about the blood thing:

There are: Blood Strike Missiles, Blood Fists, Blood Talons, Blood Lance, Blood Boil, Blood Reaver, Blood Crozius.

Thats it. In a list of 29 weapons listed in the summary on the back page, which doesn't include other wargear like power fists, thunder hammers, et al, the items with blood in the title are grossly outnumbered by the things that don't.

Sorry for being off topic, that was really annoying me.

Vhalyar
04-04-2010, 01:27
You forgot Skies of Blood, Liturgies of Blood, Blood Chalice, Blood Song :p

Sure 'blood' may not be in the majority names, but it's sprinkled all over the place and after a while you can only sigh, if not groan, when one more Blood shows up.

Joewrightgm
04-04-2010, 01:31
You forgot Skies of Blood, Liturgies of Blood, Blood Chalice, Blood Song :p

Sure 'blood' may not be in the majority names, but it's sprinkled all over the place and after a while you can only sigh, if not groan, when one more Blood shows up.

D'oh!

But I think thats with every space Marine codex; IE all the stuff in the space wolf codex, a liberal sprinkling of ideas in both the Black Templar and Dark Angels stuff.

Vhalyar
04-04-2010, 01:47
I agree, I even think that Space Wolves have it worse than Blood Angels. At least all of their units are Space marines, not cyber animals. It's more or less a tradition that Space Marines will have some... aptly... named units/powers/wargear. But starting with Space Wolves they've really upped the number of references.

ashnaile
04-04-2010, 02:29
I always thought it was one of sangss closest bodyguard honorguard type guys.

Scryer in the Darkness
04-04-2010, 07:55
D'oh!

Also Blood Champion, which for some reason annoys me the most out of all the "Blood" things... well it comes a close second to Blood Fist, which is identical in all ways to a standard DCCW but in name it seems. :rolleyes:

Setesh
04-04-2010, 10:21
liberal sprinkling my ass. bloodbloodbloodbloodwolfywolfywolfwolf

Arkturas
04-04-2010, 10:36
I think the DA only have three wargear items that could be put in the Blood/Wolf catagory being the Lion Helm, Lion's Wrath and Raven Sword with the rest having other names. Then again the book isn't in the new style.

jthdotcom
04-04-2010, 11:01
Knowing that he must save the universe from the forces of Chaos, Sanguinius, Primarch of the Blood Angels faced the traitor Horus in single combat, and died.

He awoke to find himself trapped in a different time, facing mirror images that were not his own and driven by an unknown force to change the universe for the better. His only guide on this journey calls himself El, an observer from his own time who appears in the form of a hologram that only San can see and hear. And so the Primarch finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap, will be the leap home.

---Cue theme Music---
Everybody's gotta love Quantum Leap!!

Ba'al Starslayer
04-04-2010, 11:15
Isn't Sanguinor the Master of the Honour Guard, Guardian of the Tower circa the Horus Heresy? Or so I heard... :p

nagash66
04-04-2010, 11:18
Knowing that he must save the universe from the forces of Chaos, Sanguinius, Primarch of the Blood Angels faced the traitor Horus in single combat, and died.

He awoke to find himself trapped in a different time, facing mirror images that were not his own and driven by an unknown force to change the universe for the better. His only guide on this journey calls himself El, an observer from his own time who appears in the form of a hologram that only San can see and hear. And so the Primarch finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap, will be the leap home.

---Cue theme Music---

Inspired! I had a good old laught :)

The pestilent 1
04-04-2010, 11:29
I think it would make more sense for it to be a subconscious transferral rather than a complete one.

That is, Sanguinor (Sounds like a Sesame street Vampire to me) just suddenly finds himself dodging to the left, without any real indication as to why.

Jimbobjeff
04-04-2010, 14:14
I like the idea that he is the last member of the origional sanguinary guard (the one sanguinius left behind before taking his little trip to see horus) in the section about the blood angels sucessor chapters it mentions that no one knows what happened to him after the legion was divided.

Griffindale
04-04-2010, 14:37
Warhammer 41k

This Millenium, he who is without sin shall kick the first ass.

Best tagline ever. I want it on the movie! Now someone make a motivational picture that says this with Jesus's face copied over that of a space marine.

And whoever said the "Lemanor" is a genius.


Also, I have a question. Since the Sanguinor spends his days in the immaterium, should he have the daemon special rule?

FSB
04-04-2010, 14:56
Knowing that he must save the universe from the forces of Chaos, Sanguinius, Primarch of the Blood Angels faced the traitor Horus in single combat, and died.

He awoke to find himself trapped in a different time, facing mirror images that were not his own and driven by an unknown force to change the universe for the better. His only guide on this journey calls himself El, an observer from his own time who appears in the form of a hologram that only San can see and hear. And so the Primarch finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap, will be the leap home.

---Cue theme Music---

A+ That made my day!

Mawchild
04-04-2010, 14:57
I like the idea that he is the last member of the origional sanguinary guard (the one sanguinius left behind before taking his little trip to see horus) in the section about the blood angels sucessor chapters it mentions that no one knows what happened to him after the legion was divided.

I like this idea though it wiuld need a little work to really fit since even given their huge life spans it would be a bit of a push for a blood angel to still be around since the fall. Perhaps given the warp riddled environment that existed on Horus' bridge, it was possible for Sanguinus' psyche to possess the remaining Sanguinary guard.
The Sanguinor is a ten thousand year mini avatar of sanguinus with a split personality, attuned to the souls of those that are created from the seed of Sanguinus.

Aiwass
04-04-2010, 15:57
I think in the Sanguinor dude more like the Emperor's Champion of the Black Templars. If the black-crossed guys can have one, why not the red-full of blood drops lads?

In a boring day, he is more Clark Kent, the humdrum Devastator squad member (yes, that guy that wearing just a boltgun in the 10th squad of the 9th company of the chapter) who when nobody looks, takes Dante's power armor and go on battle-spree to kick some asses.

Gdolkin
05-04-2010, 11:15
..makes Dante and Mephiston look like kids playing dress-up, from my point of view on the background. What's so special about the 1100 year old Lord of the Blood Angels and the reborn 'spiritual son of Sanguinius' when there's the 10000 year old 'spirit of Sanguinius himself'/'Sanguinius's original best boy' flying around? Both the model and the background of this Sanguinor chap completely devalue Dante and Mephiston's awesomeness, in my view.. Anyone notice the bit in the story about Sanguinor rescuing the Bloodquest-style raid on the Night Lord's ship 'Terrorclaw', p51, where it implies that Dante was the Sergeant in charge and would have died some several hundred years ago but for the golder-than-gold Sanguinor? Hmmm. I almost want to chop off Sanguinor's head and weapons and give the model Dante's and pretend the Lord of the Blood Angels got a new model to match his status, so he doesn't look like a cabin boy next to the 30 Sanguinary Guard 'elite veteran company above the elite veteran company' they now have.. Yep, mixed feelings about Sanguinor here..
And another thing, why, on the 'Ordering of the Host' diagram on page 9, where every named individual gets an honorific title and even each Company gets a nickname, is the name 'Lord of Death' missing from underneath 'Chief Librarian Mephiston', eh? Dante has been tweaked from 'Lord of the Blood Angels' to 'Master of the Blood Angels, Lord of the Angelic Host' (too much, Mat), and every Captain gets to be 'Lord' or 'Master' of something, but Mephiston lost his 'Lord of Death'? It's there on his own page 47, but right there where they list everyone else in the Chapter's honorifics, they forgot it? Shame.
One more sneaky larf from Mr Ward: p24, quote about spilling blood from a Sergeant Arcula. Just couldn't help themselves..
Corbulo is a Farseer..
..I'll stop now :)

Draxonicar
05-04-2010, 12:56
Mephiston is a Space Marine leader.

Sanguinor is a psychic Space Marine ninja ghost. Also, he more or less sails on the currents of the immaterium, so that makes him part pirate. Since he's wearing Space Marine armor, that makes him part robot too.

I'm sure Mephiston is jealous.

Sigged , DEFINITELY sigged ;)

massey
05-04-2010, 16:26
I missed the Sgt Arcula thing. :) I thought they did a very good job of only vaguely alluding to the vampire aspect of the chapter. That's cool.

Sanguinor is fine with me, even if he steps on Dante's toes a little bit. He's this mythical angelic figure that most people don't even believe in, and he doesn't show up all the time. I thought they did a great job of making both Dante and Mephiston seem very cool. Dante has been the Chapter Master for at least 1100 years, probably far longer. I thought that was a nice touch, adding some mystery to exactly how old he is.

tcraigen
05-04-2010, 23:25
I my self im more inclined to see the sanguinor character to be similar to the thorian belief of the emperor reborn. The idea that there are vessels that carry fragments of the emperor's will/soul and act for him on the physical plain. It may have similar aspects to the legion of the damned. It also has similarities to the sisters of battle. It is it's own miracle best not to compare it to much to the magics of others.