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View Full Version : Facing DoC - Need Pointers!



Agnar the Howler
04-04-2010, 03:27
EDIT: Game has been played, no more pointers needed.

I'm probably facing a 2k DoC next Tuesday with my Lizards, and it's a game I do NOT want to lose (but probably will). Losing it will mean i've lost all my games so far, at least 7 out of 7 (I try not to keep count). It's probably down to army strcture most of all, but i'm limited in what I can use, as cash flow isn't great and i'm still job hunting (not going well at all!).

Anywho, it's problematic most of all because I have no idea what he'll be running. I've only ever seen him play 40k before, but I have a feeling he's more experienced with Fantasy. I'll be taking a Slaan due to lack of a suitable Oldblood model, and my scar-vet has dumped his regular magic item in favour of a halberd (I was thinking great weapon to start with, and I can't remember why I didn't include it...). I've got an EotG and a regular skink priest running too (the other skink priest will be staying behind as a scroll/DD caddy, using the diadem of power to store both unused PD as DD and a scroll for... scrolling) as well as a small unit of temple guard (Only 10, again due to financial difficulties).

On top of fear of the unknown, my next fear is magic. He knows i'm taking Lizards, his first guess will be a Slaan, therefore I can pretty much bet on him bringing the banner of '+2 to cast for lore of daemon's choice'. Here is where it gets worse. I want to go for light, he'll probably anticipate light and opt to use the banner on it, this brings up two questions:

1) Does the lore the banner is affecting get chosen before or after my Slaan chooses his lore?
2) Which lore is the best back-up lore?

Fire doesn't seem amazing, although could cause some damage with most of his units being T3 and none of them being immune to flaming attacks (that I know of). Metal seems pointless unless it's just there in case a bloodthirster shows itself. There's sod all armour to use for strength and what use is ignoring armour saves when there's no armour there to ignore?

So yeah, i'm a little clueless when it comes to picking back-up lores.

Other questions are just general ones, like which units do I target with chameleons/skirmishers? Which units can I rely on a saurus block of 15 to take on? How do I deal with Bloodthirsters? How would you rate 6(8 if you count those in the diadem) Dispel Dice and 2 Scrolls? Do I even stand a chance? Is all hope lost? Is it worth taking the Divine Plaque of Protection on my Immune-to-all-but-magical-attacks Slaan?

I'm not posting my list for fear of drawing too many "Lol that's ****!!!' comments (remember, it's limited) so i'll say now that I have no access to further stegs, sallies, razordons, terradons (this was choice, I don't like them, so they don't go in), kroxigors (again, I'm not too fond of them, so no entry) and i'm limited in saurus kit, having 24 warriors outfitted in HW/S from when the old lizards book was around and spears weren't worth it, and 15 with spears from the current book where they're very much worth it.

So, with that in mind, does anyone have any pointers? Or is it all a lost cause and i'm now fighting to soften the death blow?

Vsurma
04-04-2010, 04:55
I do believe that he gets to choose the lore after you choose your spells (at least that is how all my opponents have played it) perhaps someone with the book will clarify.

I also believe it has a additional negative effect on the lore of light (miscast on all doubles) which makes light fairly horrible. The engine of the gods is already doing S5 hits with its burning alignment anyway.

His khorne hounds have MR3 iirc and his thirster if he brings one will have mr2, that basically means you cannot cast on these units (he will have some horrors for additional dispel dice)

I think the key will be keeping that engine of the gods alive, it can put some major hurt on the demons, also besides magic missiles they don't have any shooting really so as long as you can dispel his missiles on the engine you can just wait for him to close in, then move the steg up and laser away.

Lots of solid blocks would help here but. By my count you have 49 saurus and temple guard. Mix and match them a little, front rank with spears=whole unit with spears, so run them all as spears.

2 units of spears and a unit of temple guard will make a very solid center.
2*18 spears and 1*16 teple guard with slann would be ideal imo, your 3 models short though....skink interns?

The spears are actually good against the khorne hounds that you see in every list, if you run them with spears, you will do slightly less damage, and the opponent will always get the charge, but the static cr will turn the match into a win. The temple guard can hold any greater demon if you can get into CC.

I would deal with greater demons the same way I deal with dragons (others have different strategies), get that temple guard block in and the dragon si stuck until it loses, then throw in skink skirmisher units on the flank and rear, always with champs so you can keep challenging and avoiding losing units.

Though the greater demons are actually less of a problem as the engine of the gods will put the hurt on any greater demon!

Wonder if the damage caused by the engine count as being dealt by the priest? surely its not from the war machine as the machine does not work without the priest, I am not sure, if it works then bane head engine would just be too mean. D6 S6 hits that cause double wounds...

Basically the engine is ridiculously good against demons (they were created to deal with them after all) keep it alive and firing and you win :)

dwarfhold13
04-04-2010, 05:45
take two engines!!
daemon's are just nasty against anything, so with an experienced player don't feel bad with a 7th loss.

Sambojin
04-04-2010, 07:29
I'm not entirely sure what models you have, so I don't know how good my advice is (I tend to play O+G 7th and HOC/BOC 6th).

I'd do as was mentioned and make up a decent block of temple guard with saurus fill-ins as well as a saurus block. Skinks can never be wrong vs anything either (5+ ward is no different to an armour save really). 4 units+ are a must.

For your Slann's lore I'd look at either fire (for regen), life(weak but with a slower/anti-tree-flamer spell) or maybe a Slann heaven's bombardment. Beasts would be great if it weren't for that pesky MR.

Hard call. They come in so many flavours. At least the Ld bomb wont do as much as it can to others.....

shartmatau
04-04-2010, 16:08
I don't know lizards very well but if they have any item that can stop flying you should take it. That will hamper two of the greater daemons, screamers, furies, herald on a disc. Its worth taking if you have it.

Ive found the worst things in the daemon book tend be tzeentch daemons. blocks of horrors aren't scary unless there are lots of them. But screamers and flamers basically are playing a different game due to their special rules. Flamers will wreak havoc if you can't knock them down early. and Screamers are annoying but very fragile, i think even skinks charging screamers could at least hold them in place for a turn.

It seems like you will have competent anti-magic, so how to get around his magic defense? Well if he has that banner, send magic missiles and any other ranged attacks at it until you can get rid of it. +2 to spells won't really hurt the slaan since he can throw lots of dice. Your skink priests would have trouble though. Also remember that the banner is really expensive on a fairly weak character, though way it would be hard to take down is if he is flying on a disc or if he is a nurgle guy in a unit of plaguebearers. In which case fire would be a good lore to take. and fire casting values are average so you should be able to get some spells off. daemons are always an uphill fight:(

w3rm
04-04-2010, 16:08
Take a Oldblood on a carnosaur with blade of realities light armour and the enchanted shield. He'll expect you to go magic heavy. Dont. It will throw him off his game. March block him with Terradons and harass with skinks then finish him off with saurus and then maul him with a unit of 8 CoC with the Oldblood in it. That unit will destroy anyhting it comes in contact with. A level 1 with 2 scroll and a Jaguar Charm Saurus of doom and a Skink Chief on a Terradon to round off the list nicely. Remeber an Oldblood with the Blade can quite possibly knock out a greater daemon that is if you can catch it.

Zaustus
04-04-2010, 16:34
I just wanted to clarify the rules on Great Standard of Sundering. The short answer is that he gets to choose which lore the standard affects after you have chosen your lore and generated spells.

Here's why: On BRB p.111, under Selecting Spells, it says "... randomly generate spells ... before both sides deploy their troops." In the DoC book, p.95, the rules for the standard state "After both armies have been deployed, but before the roll for first turn, choose a Lore of Magic." So, pretty clear.

And you probably know this, but no matter what lore he chooses with the standard, it always makes Lore of Light spells miscast on double 1s, 2s or 3s.

Sygerrik
04-04-2010, 18:21
Don't take the blessing that makes you immune to all but magical attacks. Every attack in the Daemon list is magical. You're wasting your points.
I'd go with Lore of Fire; 3/4 of the basic troops are T3, and the remaining one regenerates (and thus fire is still a good choice). Engines are a must.

Poisoned attacks should go on the Greater Daemon. The more saves you force that thing to make, the more it will fail, and the more wounds it will take. Once it's gone, the list becomes a lot easier to deal with.

highelfmage
04-04-2010, 18:59
take 1 engine and 2 ancient steg.. the 4d6 poisoned attack is bad for daemons. 2 to 3 block of saurus with spears will do ton of damage. give your slann fire and have the bounce miscast item. remember horrors take d6 wound with no saves allowed

Agnar the Howler
04-04-2010, 21:31
Okay, since it's Easter Sunday, i've not been on for very long, so i'll try to get around everyone:

@ Vsurma: The stand ins for the blocks will be difficult, as my store has a WYSIWYG rule that applies to all games. Fantasy has the 50% rule for unit equipment that takes precedence, but i'm not clear on how the store treats unit fillers or stand-in models. Last time the whole unit was asked to be removed from the list because without the proxies it wasn't legal, but since it's a legal unit, I might be asked to treat them as casualties instead, which hurts more as it means he's already got VPs etc. Unless I can convince the manager otherwise, I think i'm stuck.

As for who counts as using the engine, it says that as long as the priest is alive, HE can use the power of the engine, which implies that the priest causes the effects.

@ Dwarfhold13: I have no further stegs, as detailed in the post.

@ Smabojin: What I have is mostly detailed in the post as 1 slaan, 1 EotG, a further priest, a foot scar vet, 2 units of 15 saurus, a unit of 10 TG, some skirmishers and chameleons.

@ Shartmatau: Unfortunately we have nothing that stops flying.

@ W3rm: I have no carnosaur oldblood as detailed in my post, same with Terradons.

@ Zaustus: Aye, I have a copy here that I borrowed from a friend today for reference, but that really screws some armies over. "What lore did you pick?" "Fire, why?" "Because i've just decided Fire is now harder for you to cast." "What about light?" "You're miscasting on doubles of 1, 2 and 3 now." "Do I actually have a chance of winning?" "I'll let my horror blocks, kairos and blue scribes tell you that."

@ Sygerrik: I saw, would it be better if took the MR3 one instead? As Terror is largely pointless and Regen is negated by a lot of attacks, leaving only that and Soul of Stone as possible replacements (having already aquired Becalming Cogitation, Focus of Mystery and The Focussed Rumination).

@ Highelfmage: I only have a single Stegadon, who is currently taking the position of the single engine, I also do not have sufficient numbers of saurus to provide 3 good blocks of spears.

@ General Consensus: It seems like Fire is the way to go (unless he IS nurgle, then would shadow be better? As he's got no massed wizards and the Pit would be an excellent spell to deal with their Low I, or would fire still reign supreme despite them being largely T4?).

It also seems like skinks are going to be the game-winners here, as the poison seems to be the only way of taking down the bigger gribblies without having to first penetrate high T or MR.

w3rm
04-04-2010, 22:23
If hes nurgle take light. All those wonderful daemon eating flaming attacks will screw him over!

Zaustus
05-04-2010, 01:40
@ Zaustus: Aye, I have a copy here that I borrowed from a friend today for reference, but that really screws some armies over. "What lore did you pick?" "Fire, why?" "Because i've just decided Fire is now harder for you to cast." "What about light?" "You're miscasting on doubles of 1, 2 and 3 now." "Do I actually have a chance of winning?" "I'll let my horror blocks, kairos and blue scribes tell you that."

Don't forget Skulltaker on a Juggernaut. :shifty:

Edit: I would think fire would be good against Nurgle more because of negating regeneration, which is pretty much a given on Plaguebearer blocks. Light would be perfect except for the banner, and Metal is pretty bad against daemons and their lack of armor. That leaves Fire as your best source of flaming damage. I'd imagine Heavens would be a pretty decent back-up plan against non-Nurgle daemons, with more utility and still some strong damage spells.

Sygerrik
05-04-2010, 01:43
If hes nurgle take light. All those wonderful daemon eating flaming attacks will screw him over!

Terrible advice. Great Standard of Sundering is a given in many high-end Daemon builds, and it makes Light worthless even if he doesn't choose it to nerf (which he would).

What Slann disciplines to take depends very much on what he's running. If he's got a Lord of Change and Tzeentch heralds, you will want Becalming Cogitation and Unfathomable Presence. If not, go with Focused Rumination and Focus of Mystery to beef up your casting. If you don't know, go with Unfathomable Presence and Focused Rumination, and maybe Focus of Mystery if you really want to go magic heavy.

Agnar the Howler
05-04-2010, 02:23
I always take 4 disciplines (mostly because it's fun, but also because it fits with the fluff of my temple city) and there are 3 set-in-stone ones, which are the Focus of Mystery, Focussed Rumination and Becalming Cogitation, as they are just too good not to take. Not matter the opponent, they will always get taken. The last one jumps between Unfathomable Presence and Higher State of Conciousness, usually because my opponents have amazing luck when facing fear/terror checks that i've caused, so that large unit of clanrats my slaan tried to terror to death just passed the roll and is now in combat with me, and my mis-cast history is so bad, that I just don't trust Soul of Stone to provide a reasonable roll.

Okay, so fire seems like the lore of the evening through and through. Awesome.

ZigZagMan
05-04-2010, 03:58
remember that even when in combat, the slann can still fire those fire magic missle through the skink priests AND the EOTG can help mitigate the +2 with thier own -1.

Agnar the Howler
05-04-2010, 04:01
My EotG rarely gets to use that. Usually it switches between the ward save and burning alignment, very rarely is it ever in a situation where it can't use BA and the ward save is ineffective, especially vs daemons, where i'll be BAing everything I can.

Agnar the Howler
07-04-2010, 01:01
Well, I got smashed. It turned out to be Slaanesh themed, and my all important Burning Alignment... it was more like a smouldering poke, that meant I got charged and wiped out on the next turn thanks to poison. The best thing I managed to do was knock two wounds off the Keeper of Secrets with my Slaan and the Flaming Sword of Rhuin. Of course, the first turn started out well as it always does for me, my first order of the day being a fiery blast aimed at 5 seekers that rolled Irresitible and then rolled 12 hits, wiping the unit out. But after that it all went downhill, with Burning alignment causing a huge 1 hit on the KoS, and everything else passing their ward saves from it.

In the end, not even a forced miscast was sucessful (roll as many dice as possible when my Slann's death to a wizard is imminent so that I hope to cause a miscast and use the Cupped Hands to pass it over). I ended up getting smacked thanks to the sheer number of attacks and my EotG priest getting wiped out early on, with every single one of his Lords/Heroes left on 1 wound and nothing to attack back and kill them...

But it wasn't all bad luck, I forgot about my Plaque of Dominion and Becalming Cogitation, which probably could've changed the course of game if i'd remembered to use them.