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Bruen
24-05-2005, 14:30
Hello fantasy people

I have never played fantasy before but I liked the recent Zombie Pirate list in WD so much that I have decided to take it up.

At the moment I don't even have the fantasy rulebook so I am looking for some general advice on tactics and units from those who have seen the army list.

I had planned to start with 3 units of 40 zombie pirates with hand weapons, 2 units of 20 zombie pirates with handguns and 2-3 cannon. I would probably have some hounds and rats to guard the flanks. The army can only have level 1 death magic, and even then only with a 35 point piece of wargear so I probably won't go big on magic.

So far I have bought enough sprues for 120 zombies and nothing else.

Does this sound like a reasonable start (remember I have never played fantasy before)?

Any other useful advice would be gratefully received.

taer
24-05-2005, 23:55
Well, I played with the army on Monday, against Ogres (who are not something zombies are particularly suited to killing). Learned a few things. First, zombie shooting....sucks. I killed more of my own guys than the enemy. The deck gunners (special choice thingies) are particularly worthless. At 10 points a pop, and with just as much a chance to kill themselves as they are to kill the enemy, means that they are preety much just giving points away. Bloated Corpses rock. Though you lose 30 points a pop when they die, having about 5 is awesome, since A) they are all units on their own, you can pretty much force your opponent to deploy before you set down any actual troops, and B) they are the best speed bumps ever if you have them in a staggered line. Plus, they can take out a decent amount of enemy as they explode. Queen bess and the carronades are relly good choices, and the best unit is definitely the rotting leviathan.

Your two units of twenty gunners should be made into guys with two pistols, since they can use them in combat without blowing their own heads off, and they get an extra attack to boot. No stand and shoot though, since undead suck like that. I took the level one mage, and he was useless. Harkon and the warhammer world generate enough dispel dice to deal with quite a lot (which is about the only good thing about Harkon).

The undead Ogres are pretty damn cool, even if they are zombies. And the last bit I can talk about is the syreens which are brilliant.

Unfortunately, this is an army where the core units are almost as close to useless as can be, and relies on its special and rare to bring the pain.

The Judge
01-06-2005, 18:48
My friend takes the Zombie Pirates, and zombies with pistols are a zillion percent better than handguns - and cannons rock. Queen Bess is a beast in 2K when backed up by 2-3 cannons.

Of course, my beardy friends army is:

Luthor Harkon
2 Wight Captains
Syreen

20 Deckhands
20 Deckhands
10 Pistol-zombies
10 Pistol-zombies
3 Bloated Corpses

4 Carronades

Queen Bess
1 Rotting Leviathon

This is a beardy-cheese army, and is remarkebly challenging for an army that consistes entirely of zombies. Allied with a normal Undead VC army makes for a killer combination.

librerian_samae
01-06-2005, 18:54
Its also illegal, queen bess takes up a rare and a special so he shouldnt be able to feild 4 cannons

Sariel
01-06-2005, 19:19
Hello fantasy people
. I would probably have some hounds and rats to guard the flanks. The army can only have level 1 death magic, and even then only with a 35 point piece of wargear so I probably won't go big on magic.


Well, you can't go big on magic even if you tried, so its not as if you have a choice! :D

That being said, couple of comments:

1) Seeing as how this is your first fantasy army, I'd go heavy on the shooting. Easiest way to play, and arguably the most (and only?!!) effective way to go with Zombie Pirates.

2) 120 Zombies is about right, though 40 zombies in a unit is a wee bit excessive. 25 is about average, 30 if you're playing it safe, but 40?! Yeeks. Way too big imho. If you really want mobs, 4 units of 30 is a lot more flexible, and will last just as long.

3) If you want handguns (which I'd advise against), split them up into units of 10. 20 zombie handgunners can take up a LOT of space, and you might end up wasting shots. And, with units of 10 (or possibly 12), you could also use them to countercharge an enemy unit that is stuck in combat with your deckhands - they're a lot more maneouverable than a great big block of 30 deckhands!

I'd leave the pistols at home - sure, the extra S4 attack is nice, but considering these guys always strike last, even on the charge, there might not be many Zombies left to strike back. And since it only works for the first turn of combat..........

4) Cannon are excellent. I'd go with 2 cannon, a full unit (ie 10) of deck guns, and possibly a unit of Deck Droppers.

5) Troops are going to win you this one, so I'd go light on characters.

Vampire Fleet Captains are'nt too bad, but they're never going to be close-combat monsters, and for the cost of a single Fleet Captain, you can get 1 gunnery mob with change left over. One or two to stiffen a gunnery mob or to keep an eye on Queen Bess, possibly, but nothing to write home about.

Syreens are specialist troops. Nifty against a few low-leadership armies (it just makes them worse), but utterly useless against others.
a) The enemy has to FAIL his leadership test before his unit suffers from the -3 penalty. Great if his base leadership is 6 or 7 (and don't forget he can use his general's leadership or any other bonuses he might have), but not much use against troops with Ld 8 or higher.
b) The -3 penalty (assuming he fails) will only last for one turn, since it behaves in exactly the same way as Doom and Darkness. It can't be dispelled, but it WILL go away.
c) The spell will have NO EFFECT on undead, daemons or any troops that are unbreakable or immune to psychology.

Bruen
01-06-2005, 21:37
Thanks for all your comments.

I still want to have a gunnery mob, but a much smaller one armed with a brace of pistols. I am thinking of using it as a countercharge unit against tough attachers, trying to flank and put those ap shots to good use.

On the other hand I still don't like deck gunners, I'm not really sure why.

I take your point about Syreens, not as useful as I had thought but I do see a lot of Skaven armies at my local club so I might not throw that idea out totaly.

On the other hand although fleet captains are not amazing I want to have a high captain to deckhand mob ratio because of my theme of ships crews. I want to have each mob representing a ships crew, and every crew needs a captain. For the same reason I will not be using leviathans, they don't fit on ships.

If necessary I will sacrifice some combat power for the theme.

All this long-winded rambling brings me to my revised list:

Luthor Harkon 260

Fleet Captain, additional hand weapon, light armor, Ex-Parrot 116
Fleet Captain, additional hand weapon, light armor, Wharf Rats 111
Fleet Captain, additional hand weapon, light armor, Ships Colours 161

14 Gunnery Mob, standard, musician, brace of pistols 134
24 Deckhand Mob, standard, musician 159
24 Deckhand Mob, standard, musician 159
24 Deckhand Mob, standard, musician 159
10 Scurvey Dogs 100
10 Scurvey Dogs 100
4 Bloated Corpses 120

Carronade 70
Carronade 70
Carronade 70
4 Deck Droppers 100
4 Deck Droppers 100

11 points left

My basic tactics would be to use the deckhand mobs to receive charges and then use the dogs and gunnery mob as flankers. The bloated corpses will guard the carronades and generaly be annoying. The deck droppers go after war machines, block marches and get in rear chages if possible.

For theme reasons each character will join a zombie mob, with Harkon joining the gunnery mob.

Comments?

Sariel
01-06-2005, 23:36
I still want to have a gunnery mob, but a much smaller one armed with a brace of pistols. I am thinking of using it as a countercharge unit against tough attachers, trying to flank and put those ap shots to good use.


Again, I'd like to stress the fact that the gunnery mob is going to strike last, even on the charge. So, unless they're countercharging a cavalry unit, I would'nt count on getting many hits in, especially since (unlike your deckhands) these guys are only WS2. That being said, small units are the way to go if you want to hit enemy units in the flanks. I'd go with units of 12 rather than 14, though.



I take your point about Syreens, not as useful as I had thought but I do see a lot of Skaven armies at my local club so I might not throw that idea out totaly.


Fair enough. Just so long as you remember that the average ranked Skaven unit has a Ld 7 (10 if he has three ranks and a Chieftain general within 12"). Of course, if you hit them while they're fleeing....... :D



On the other hand although fleet captains are not amazing I want to have a high captain to deckhand mob ratio because of my theme of ships crews. I want to have each mob representing a ships crew, and every crew needs a captain. For the same reason I will not be using leviathans, they don't fit on ships.


Once again, fair enough. Personally, I prefer the idea of having them with Carronades as gunnery officers - they won't make much difference in a unit of Deckhands, but they greatly enhance the close-combat potential of your Carronades and help keep small fast units of flyers from snapping them up on the cheap. Three Fleet Captains is fine, especially since you've kept them fairly cheap.



Carronade 70
Carronade 70
Carronade 70
4 Deck Droppers 100
4 Deck Droppers 100


Um. You're only allowed 4 Special choices in a 2000-point game. Right now, you have 5. ...



My basic tactics would be to use the deckhand mobs to receive charges and then use the dogs and gunnery mob as flankers. The bloated corpses will guard the carronades and generaly be annoying. The deck droppers go after war machines, block marches and get in rear chages if possible.


Sounds good. Should work. Personally, I'd use the Bloated Corpses to whittle down anyone trying to charge/flank your zombie blocks, but it works either way, really.

Stouty
01-06-2005, 23:56
I wasn't going to have any corpses in my list till I thought of Halo. Think of Halo now add lots of corpses. It be what I did and it did pay off!

taer
02-06-2005, 04:52
I'd leave the pistols at home - sure, the extra S4 attack is nice, but considering these guys always strike last, even on the charge, there might not be many Zombies left to strike back. And since it only works for the first turn of combat..........

I'm half-way certain that a brace of pistols can be used every turn.



Syreens are specialist troops. Nifty against a few low-leadership armies (it just makes them worse), but utterly useless against others.
a) The enemy has to FAIL his leadership test before his unit suffers from the -3 penalty. Great if his base leadership is 6 or 7 (and don't forget he can use his general's leadership or any other bonuses he might have), but not much use against troops with Ld 8 or higher.
b) The -3 penalty (assuming he fails) will only last for one turn, since it behaves in exactly the same way as Doom and Darkness. It can't be dispelled, but it WILL go away.
c) The spell will have NO EFFECT on undead, daemons or any troops that are unbreakable or immune to psychology.

Well, I'm gonna argue against them being specialist troops for a couple reasons: Aye, things immune to psychology are immune to their trepidations, but then they are also immune to precisely the greatest weapon undead can muster which is fear, so not really an astounding loss considering. Next, even LD 10 units fail a leadership test now and again, and with multiple syreens concentrating on one unit, that's multiple tests that must be take, and greater chance of failure. Hell, Ld 10 with Doom and darkness on it becomes an iffy leadership 7, which combined with something that causes terror (which I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that not many people are gonna leave the ship's colors at home), can mean a 500+ point super unit of doom runs away. Not a bad result for 90-180 points invested in one or two characters. Plus, they can always F@#^ with the peripheries of an enemy force, and can help to ensure a long range (meaning out of general's leadership range) flanking unit or cannon crew killer can have a hard time passing its fear test to charge. And the final point is, Doom and Darkness is not a "lasts one turn spell" but "lasts one turn +" spell. By way of that, I mean the victim suffers the effects of doom and darkness untill they pass a leadership test (with the -3 penalty), and since it cannot be dispelled, there is not a guarantee that it will go away. In fact, just the opposite, it is unlikely it will.



Oh, and on the same line of thought, can multiple doom and darkness' stack? I mean, can you cast it (scream it) on a unit two or three times for a -6, -9 leadership? Any ideas on that?

Sariel
02-06-2005, 11:36
I'm half-way certain that a brace of pistols can be used every turn.


Nope - that would be "Festooned with pistols", and as near as I can recall, the only pirates (or unit, for that matter) that can take it are short, grumpy, very muscular and have massive orange hairdos.

Syreens:
Single ethereal characters ARE excellent for march-blocking and squatting when it comes to contesting table quarters. On the other hand, seeing as how its a T3 W2 character, well... even an army with average magic (ie two level 2s) has a 50/50 chance of getting a spell through (a bit less if you bought Slaan Gold...). Sure, you should have other targets, but then again, the Syreen is about the only thing that can ONLY be hurt by magic.

Or combat resolution. Assuming they manage to charge her (ie pass their fear tests), even 5 Chaos Hounds have a chance of killing her. Not much of one, but still a chance, but it gets even higher once you start talking about regular fast cavalry with musicians, especially since she can scream all she wants, but unlike a Banshee, she can't kill enemy models with her screams. And Ld 1 isn't a problem when you outnumber the Banshee AND are winning combat.

She's not useless, oh no. And when you consider your other choice is a Fleet Captain, who isn't particularly impressive either... well..... I'd probably take one, but she's hardly spectacular.


Ships Colours/Terror:
Terror is iffy. Nice if it happens, but not something I'd count on.

What I disagree with is the vulnerability of said 500+ (or even just 300+) point unit of doom being vulnerable, seeing as how most such units invariably have high leadership, are immune to psychology or cause terror by themselves...


Doom & Darkness:
It is not permanent.

"For the duration of the turn the affected unit will suffer a -3 penalty to any Leadership test ..... At the start of its following turn, the unit must take and pass a Leadership test (at -3), otherwise it remains affected for the duration of that turn as well. AT THE END OF THE AFFECTED UNIT'S FOLLOWING TURN, the spell CEASES TO HAVE ANY EFFECT."

- BRB, p. 151

The bit about dispelling just means that you can't dispel the Syreen's scream, since it isn't a spell - it just behaves exactly like one.

As for having multiple Doom and Darknesses, well, if you have 3 Syreens targetting the same unit, you could conceivably reduce it to Ld 1.

Bruen
02-06-2005, 11:51
Um. You're only allowed 4 Special choices in a 2000-point game. Right now, you have 5. ...

Bah! How annoying :)

Gyulkus Chaos Saurus
02-06-2005, 11:52
im not going help u make a list as i have no idea what im talking about for this list, but remember with zombies u can use the extra arms on the sprues to make it look like they are coming out of the ground, so u can probably make more that 120 zombies.