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Repentant Son
06-04-2010, 18:18
Why do sergeants automatically come with bolt pistols and chainswords? Why is that the norm, why is that expected? It doesn't make sense, considering everybody else in the squad has bolters...

Thanks, Repentant Son

Razaan
06-04-2010, 18:21
You can swap out either the chainsword or bolt pistol for a bolter for no cost.

No idea why the chainsword is default other than to maybe make him look different.

Sigis
06-04-2010, 18:59
This is more annoying with Guard. Id rather have another guy with a las gun than some dude thinking hes a hero running around with a pistol and a chainsword. Look here Veteran Sergeant, youre not going to be amazing in Close combat, EVER, so just go grab a lasgun from the armory and respond to my FRFSRF order.

Ba'al Starslayer
06-04-2010, 19:03
To be fair, the Marine Sgt will have 3 Attacks in combat, even if he DOESN'T charge, which helps in their general role as a 'flexible, all-round unit'. Although I can understand what you mean here...

SPYDER68
06-04-2010, 19:05
Sergent is the sgt... he is there to lead the unit.

He has access to special close combat weapons as he has earned the right to use them ?

Lord Inquisitor
06-04-2010, 19:23
For Space Marines, because most people would upgrade them to take pistol+CCW (or pistol + powerfist) anyway. For guard, I suspect the idea is that (much like WWI armies) only the officers carried pistols, so it is a badge of rank. I was trying to google if frontline officers were issued pistols in addition or instead of a rifle in WWI (senior officers certainly only seemed to carry a sidearm) but I got totally distracted by this page on wacky weapons (http://www.oddee.com/item_91684.aspx)

Skyros
06-04-2010, 19:34
Because even 38,000 years into the future, humanity still issues swords to all its officers.

Zeitkraft
06-04-2010, 19:51
For Sm Sergeants I'm pretty sure that it's a free switch to a bolter if they'd like. So no harm no foul there. However, yeh, most people use Fist/BP on their Sergeants.

neko
06-04-2010, 19:52
"Will you stop firing that autocannon? I want to go over there and hit them with my sword!"

Bunnahabhain
06-04-2010, 20:00
I don't know about WW1, but by WW2, most officers you'd see at this scale, ie those who would lead a platoon ( 25-60 men), company (75-200 men), and maybe battalion (for Apoc scale hordes 600+ men), and are anywhere near the front line, would either be issued with, or acquire a long gun of some kind. If you have snipers about, you remove obvious signs of rank, and make sure you look like the rank and file, so that means a rifle or SMG.

The inability of guard sergeants to get lasguns is silly, junior officers just annoying. I suppose it goes with the poor sniper rules....

jesusjohn
06-04-2010, 20:01
Because SM sgts are heros with capital H. Also i have found that having 3 attacks, 4 on the charge in a flamer equiped combat squad it gives all sorts of flexibility at no extra cost. Imp Guard officers use them for show, it's not like an extra flashlight is going to help!

MegaPope
06-04-2010, 20:09
Lord Inquisitor: you are indeed correct. Officers in WWI were only really issued pistols - in the case of the British Army, Webley and Enfield revolvers. And yes, it was because a) they were a badge of rank and b) the officers were meant to command, and avoid actually fighting if they could help it, and so a personal defence sidearm was all that was felt necessary.

Also, the officer class were traditionally cavalrymen up until late WWI, so that's where the whole, pistol/sword idea came from. There's even a story that the then Lieutenant General Douglas Haig himself strapped on his sabre and was ready to ride out and lead from the front when it seemed as if the Germans would break through to Paris after the Battle of Mons.

Bunnahabhain
06-04-2010, 20:11
it's not like an extra flashlight is going to help!

You'd be surprised. 3 Combined squads ( quite normal), and the Front rank fire order, those three sergeants cost you 6 lasgun shots. Given the heavy weapon teams changes as well, that cost you another 3 mens lasguns.... it all adds up.

DeadlySquirrel
06-04-2010, 20:19
"Will you stop firing that autocannon? I want to go over there and hit them with my sword!"

the better one is "DRIVE CLOSER! I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!!!1!!"

Lord Inquisitor
06-04-2010, 20:25
With illustration. (http://www.icanhasmotivation.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/driveme.jpg)

Hunger
06-04-2010, 22:47
Why do sergeants automatically come with bolt pistols and chainswords?

They are the sergeant's status symbols denoting his rank. Although a lasgun or bolter may be more useful to him in actual combat, its more heroic for the sergeant to charge into the enemy holding his chainsword aloft and yelling a suitable battlecry. 40k is, after all, a game of heroic goings-on, not an accurate representation of a battle.

That said, I dislike the silliness aspect of my sergeants holding largely useless weapons, and am toying with the idea of giving one in ten of my lasgun-toting guard infantrymen a different colour shoulder-pad to the rest of the squad, since I like to distance myself from the 'gameyness' of 40k.

Sircyn
07-04-2010, 00:07
Someone with a more cynical take on things might suggest that a revolver is a much better weapon at "discouraging" notions of self preservation in the line of duty amongst the rank and file. I could certainly imagine the guard to be issuing pistols to their NCO's to keep their men in line, they might be useless for shooting the enemy soldiers but cowardice is an even greater foe that is closer to hand!

I also resent having to go around building a load of pistol armed guardsmen to lead my dozens of line guard squads.

For the marines I would assume it's down to the personal preference of the Sgt, as others have said it might be a symbolic thing significant to the particular chapter or as a badge of rank more generally Imperium wide or they might be expecting tactical use out of the weapons during their mission.

neko
07-04-2010, 00:20
Under the old IG rules I was giving my sergeants boltguns as their status of rank. That being removed under the new rules is something that I've found a touch annoying.

Olja
07-04-2010, 00:41
The new IG codex is great, but I'm still puzzled as to why they made the laspistol/CC weapon mandatory for sergeants. :wtf: This didn't effect my Valhallans or Tallarns as I got them in 2nd ED, or my Ctachans or Cadians as I could always get more of those guys. But my poor Steel Legion guys, I was lucky to scrounge up the few that I needed.

Chiron
07-04-2010, 00:52
Because SM sgts are heros with capital H. Also i have found that having 3 attacks, 4 on the charge in a flamer equiped combat squad it gives all sorts of flexibility at no extra cost. Imp Guard officers use them for show, it's not like an extra flashlight is going to help!

Today in 1 turn of shooting, 40 guardsman (20 normal, 20 veterans) vs 1 Avatar with Fortune knocked down to 1 wound on the first turn.

Another 4 lasgun shots might just have knocked him down and prevented him wading into those poor 20 guardsmen

Flashlights arent useless, you just need a lot of em turned on and off really fast to kill things

neko
07-04-2010, 20:38
Flashlights arent useless, you just need a lot of em turned on and off really fast to kill things
And hope that the target has epilepsy? ;)

DEADMARSH
07-04-2010, 23:38
The new IG codex is great, but I'm still puzzled as to why they made the laspistol/CC weapon mandatory for sergeants. :wtf: This didn't effect my Valhallans or Tallarns as I got them in 2nd ED, or my Ctachans or Cadians as I could always get more of those guys. But my poor Steel Legion guys, I was lucky to scrounge up the few that I needed.

You and me both, man! I'd used up most all of my "proper" Steel Legion sergeants making Rough Riders out of them.

As for lasguns being useless and one more not making a difference, sure. Point taken. But the only thing even more useless is a laspistol on a Guard Sergeant.

Bunnahabhain
08-04-2010, 01:10
But the only thing even more useless is a laspistol on a Guard Sergeant.


Nope, their close combat weapon is even less use. The laspistol at least lets you get one guaranteed attack in before dying a messy death to an enemy with an higher I than you, and both the pistol and CCW have same utility in close combat...

Blitz001
08-04-2010, 04:26
For Space Marines, because most people would upgrade them to take pistol+CCW (or pistol + powerfist) anyway. For guard, I suspect the idea is that (much like WWI armies) only the officers carried pistols, so it is a badge of rank. I was trying to google if frontline officers were issued pistols in addition or instead of a rifle in WWI (senior officers certainly only seemed to carry a sidearm) but I got totally distracted by this page on wacky weapons (http://www.oddee.com/item_91684.aspx)


this is all well and good but sergents are officers they are ncos, but i do see what your trying to get at there

Scythe
08-04-2010, 06:28
Nope, their close combat weapon is even less use. The laspistol at least lets you get one guaranteed attack in before dying a messy death to an enemy with an higher I than you, and both the pistol and CCW have same utility in close combat...

Well, it can be replaced by a power weapon... merge a couple of squads, add a commissar, and you have a reasonably dangerous unit in combat.