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Anton
07-04-2010, 21:05
So, the Skaven FAQ recommends that we use US 3 for the War-litter (+1 for the Warlord).

My question is whether the War-litter and Warlord have a combined US of 4, or if they have separate unit strengths. Is the Warlord immune to Killing Blow or is he not?

theunwantedbeing
07-04-2010, 21:27
Unit strength 4, he's immune to killing blow because his mount cant be attacked seperately.

Just like sheildbearers.

Come 8th edition we'll have a nice simple properly worded killing blow rule that works on anything that would be us1 if on foot, so we'll have no more stupid threads about "are sheildbearers/war litters immune to killing blow?" (other than from people who dont read the rules of course).

Ozorik
07-04-2010, 21:36
If the warlord is +1 he isn't immune (he would need to be a single model with a US of 3+ to be immune).

jamano
07-04-2010, 23:45
Isn't it like dwarven sheildbearers because its a single model?(the war litter doesnt have wounds or anything) making him immune because hes a us 4?

therat
08-04-2010, 02:21
It's been debated before http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242437&highlight=war+litter

Technically it is a single model with US4. The FAQ says US3 +1 for the warlord, but the litter itself cannot exist without the warlord, they share a single model and wounds.

So it's a single, US4 model. Did GW break it down as 3+1 to show KB is not allowed? I don't know. One would think they'd have mentioned it, but it must have slipped their minds.

I'd talk it over with your opponents. Strict RAW it has no defined US as the FAQ provides what they call a "suggestion." By their suggestion it has US4, which if they had stopped there it, like the dwarf on shieldbearers, would have immunity to KB. They chose to break it into 3+1 which could mean he does not share the same immunity, but not definitely.

My opinion: it is a single model with US4. Saying it's US3+1 does not change this fact.

Ozorik
08-04-2010, 15:19
So it's a single, US4 model.

Its not though, its a 3+1 model which means that the warlord is vulnerable. If it was a US 4 single model then things would be obvious but it isnt. The only examples where combined US exists in warhammer are characters riding on chariots or large monsters, both of which are explicitly vulnerable to KB.

As usual GW have been less than clear but the balance of evidence is on KB vulnerability.

KayazyAssassin
08-04-2010, 17:08
if they are not a single model does that mean the warlitter can be killed right out from under the warlord

therat
08-04-2010, 17:11
Breaking the composition down does not change the fact that it is a single model with US of 4.

You take the US of the mount, which is 3, and add the US of the warlord, which is 1. It is a single model with a US of 4, the breakdown does not matter. The war litter is a mount, not specifically a chariot or a monster so such rules do not apply.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-04-2010, 18:10
RaW... When you attack a character mounted on a monster or chariot, you're attacking a US1 component of a larger model. When you're attacking a character mounted on something without multiple wounds, though, you're attacking the model as a whole, not specifically the character on it. (Thus the bonus armor save!) Thus, a cavalry mount is attacked as US2, not as US1.

RaI... It's no accident that you can KB US2. I think that's specifically to allow you to KB mounted US1 models. I find it hard to believe that the War Litter (or the Shieldbearers for that matter) are meant to override the inherent vulnerability of a US1 model that just happens to be on something, rather than being actually larger themself.

Lord Inquisitor
08-04-2010, 18:20
I was initially going to agree that it counts as a US4 model, but reading the rules on unit strength there's no reason to suggest that it isn't 3+1 like a chariot or a ridden monster. This particular ridden monster has no wounds but instead an arbitrary 3 unit strength, +1 for the character. The FAQ explicitly states that the unit strength is 3+1, which is identical wording to the description of a chariot under unit strength.

So, while a character that is genuinely US4 would be immune, and a mounted character with a combined US4 is certainly a grey area, the FAQ words the unit strength as a monster+character, so I would say it is possible to KB the character.

decker_cky
08-04-2010, 19:04
You can't separate the US1 from the US3. It's a single model. That single model is US>2. Single models with US>2 can't be killing blowed.

Lord Inquisitor
08-04-2010, 19:29
Agreed, but the FAQ explicitly lists this as US3+1. I would take this to overrule the normal rules, and therefore for unit strength purposes the warlord still counts as US1.

If you disagree, then fine, I understand the US4 is normally not affected by KB. Ultimately, we all know that the Warlord should be affected by KB whether on a rat ogre or a war-litter or indeed a great pox rat and it is only by the vagaries of the KB rule wording and a very off-the-cuff FAQ answer that this comes up at all.

decker_cky
08-04-2010, 19:49
Where does that overrule the KB rule? It's a different way of writing the same thing.

3+1 = 4. 3+1 would matter if the litter was separate, but it isn't.

You can argue intent or fluff (though fluffwise, how is it different than dwarf shieldbearers?), but the parts are inseperable and 3+1>2 , so no killing blow.

Lord Inquisitor
08-04-2010, 20:25
3+1 = 4. 3+1 would matter if the litter was separate, but it isn't.
It's the bizarre situation of a ridden "thing" being US of more than the usual 1 extra for cavalry. The unit strength tables clearly differentiate between the flat 2 for cavalry and X+1 for character mounts. If they said that the Warlord's unit strength on a litter is 4, then that'd be rather more stringent than the wording that the litter has 3 and the warlord 1. Your assertion that the parts are inseparable are based on what? It's still a character+mount, it's just that attacks are "worked out against the rider," that's it. The rule is that "it can be used against characters mounted... on monsters, as long as the riders themselves have a unit strength of 2 or less". While the mount is a weird hybrid of cavalry and monster, the warlord is still defined as a "rider" of a "mount" and the FAQ clearly states his US as 1, counted independently from the US of his mount. Your assumption is that a W1 mount does not count as a mount in terms of unit strength for the purposes of KB because hits are applied against the rider doesn't have a basis in rules that I can find.


You can argue intent or fluff (though fluffwise, how is it different than dwarf shieldbearers?),
Why should a dwarf lord on shieldbearers be immune to KB either in fluff terms? It doesn't make any more sense, and as far as I know, there's never been any offical FAQ one way or the other on this, has there?

jamano
08-04-2010, 20:38
Does the rulebook refer to all cav models as being US 1+1, or US 2? because the war litter is an identical case, there is no distinction between the two. Saying it was US 3+1 was just trying to be more clear so you would know where the unit strength was coming from. Don't try to squeeze extra meaning out of it.

Lord Inquisitor
08-04-2010, 20:44
Cavalry have US2. By RAW, the war-litter "should" have US2 when combined with the character (and the Bonebreaker "should" have US4+1). These are the rules according to the rulebook. The FAQ lists both as US3+1, which is all cool and froody and makes sense as the Rules as Intended. Clearly therefore, the litter having a US of 3+1 is an exception to the normal cavalry rules and the character is still intended to have the original US of 1.

The resolution of the question "is the character affected by KB?" relies on the interpretation of the FAQ as the FAQ itself does not follow the rulebook rules.

stripsteak
08-04-2010, 23:09
by RAW the litter isn't covered. RAW only refers to single wound mounts, and mounts with more than one wound. There is nothing in the book about - wound mounts, which is why it's US needed a answer in the first place. While it is nice that they at least gave us a US, it would be nice if they had also included something about whether to treat the litter as cav/infantry/chariot/monster whatever. Even though it now has a US it's still not something really covered by the rules.

Discuss it with your opponent before a game if there is going to be a warlitter out.

jamano
09-04-2010, 01:00
single wound mounts as you think of them are also - wound mounts, its one model with two stat profiles and only one wound. the war litter is the same way, only not on a 25x50 base size so its US is different.

decker_cky
09-04-2010, 01:40
How is a "-" wound mount a 1 wound mount? We've only seen one - wound mount in the game, and it's US doesn't follow the steed rules.

jamano
09-04-2010, 03:14
I mean horses, cold ones, etc, that aren't killed or targeted seperately, they use the one wound of the rider. Whereas a monstrous mount like bonebreaker or dragon has its own wounds in its stat profile and is a seperate model.

stripsteak
09-04-2010, 04:32
I mean horses, cold ones, etc, that aren't killed or targeted seperately, they use the one wound of the rider. Whereas a monstrous mount like bonebreaker or dragon has its own wounds in its stat profile and is a seperate model.

which all have a W value of 1 on the profiles thus being 1 wound mounts. the Litter has a - and by pg 5 is thus a 0, and is a therefore a 0 wound mount which is not covered by the rules.

there only thing comparable is dwarf on shieldbearers which is also another topic of debate on these forums as to how it should be treated as well.