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Constantin Valdor
08-04-2010, 02:25
Picking up Dark Elves again after a 7 year hiatus. (One can never truly free himself from Warhammer...)

Drafted something at the local RT store while flipping through the store copy Army Book.

General use, friendly-competitive play. I like lists that have variety, hate Dark Riders.

[CHARACTERS]

Dreadlord - 276
- PoK, RoH, Crimson Death, Blood Armour, SDC.

Sorceress - 185
- Lvl-2, Dispel, Dispel.

Assassin 156
- CoW, Manbane, RoK, +HW.

[CORE]

20x Spearmen - 180
- FC, Shields, War Banner.

10x RCBmen - 100

20x Corsairs - 228
- FC, HBow, Pair-HBow.

[SPECIAL]

5x Knights - 210
- FC, Banner +D3 CR.

17x Black Guard - 291
- FC, Banner ASF.

[RARE]

2x Reapers - 200

1x Hydra - 175

<GRAND TOTAL: 2001 points>

Note: Dreadlord and Assassin both go in Black Guard unit on recommendation from a few of the store's regulars. (Rather, much of the list is built based on what they said.)

In hind sight, I'm personally kind of skeptical on that since the unit becomes a foot slogging 800-point basket of (admittedly hard hitting, but possibly fragile) eggs.

Anyways. All input is welcome, be it mathhammer, theoryhammer, from-experience, big changes, small tweaks, list-wide revisions, what have you.

~CV

koningswulf
08-04-2010, 03:39
Looks very solid to me but some inputs are

Your Lord canīt have both PoK, RoH,
both are talismans and a character can only have 1 item per group
except for dispell scrolls.

You really need some fly unit or fast cav unit to marschblock, disrupt, divert
and have as sacrifices unit against big frenzy units or fantics or similiar.
A must in all armies if you ask me.

Also a small shade unit for same reason is always good.

I feel the black guard unit way to fragile. A slow one egg basket seldom works.
I used to play them all time earlier but now people just blast them with warmachines/magic and missils long before they come into combat in my experience.
Also many dislike the ASF banner and they are not considered very "friendly" together.
That being said if they get into combat they are great but against a component opponent you will be hard pressed get its point value back.

I just posted Drucchi Army of Hag Graef 2500 pts army there you can see how I think, you would have to drop 500pts tho. Cheers and good luck!

Constantin Valdor
08-04-2010, 04:18
> ASF banner not very "Friendly".
All of my friends recognize the fact that BG tend to get thrown in with an ASF banner, and that for a fairly expensive unit they tend to get pounded or intercepted before they reach something I want them to charge, and are thus cool with it.

> Can't have two talismans.
Whoops, I forgot about that. Will fix in next revision.

> Needs fast cav.
Good input. So the question, then, is Dark Riders or Harpies? I am favoring harpies for flying, and might try to hit warmachine crew with them too, but Dark Riders would have their own benefits as well. The question then becomes what needs to be cut in order to free up pts.

> Sacrifices for big frenzy units.
Again, maybe harpies then? A unit of 5 is cheap, so having 2 units would give me some marchblock ability plus I can throw them at frenzy units or warmachine crews.

Your 2.5k list looks pretty solid actually. I just personally don't like Dark Riders and chariots, which actually makes for an easy "cut 500pts". Although it would seem that cutting DR and chariots would make it much less viable.

Edit: REVISED:

[CHARACTERS]

Dreadlord - 221
- RoH, AoD, Crimson Death, SDC.

Sorceress - 185
- Lvl-2, Dispel, Dispel.

Assassin 156
- CoW, Manbane, RoK, +HW.

[CORE]

20x Spearmen - 180
- FC, Shields, War Banner.

10x RCBmen - 100

20x Corsairs - 228
- FC, HBow, Pair-HBow.

5x Harpies - 55

[SPECIAL]

5x Knights - 210
- FC, Banner +D3 CR.

17x Black Guard - 291
- FC, Banner ASF.

[RARE]

2x Reapers - 200

1x Hydra - 175

It's rather unfortunate that I wasn't able to free up enough for more harpies.

As it stands though I couldn't think of any unit that could be weakened for points, and I definitely want to keep most of the units simply because I like them.
(17 Black Guard is because 17+1 = 18, and in local groups it was realized that 6-file is better than 5-file, since there's a lot of 25mm going around in our area. I wonder if I should do the same for corsairs and spearmen and probably come out with enough points for 5 more harpies.)

Don Zeko
08-04-2010, 05:10
I understand that this is a friendly list, but Corsairs should not have handbows. I've tried to come up with a use for that unit, and I simply can't. Instead, take them with 2 hand weapons and the sea serpent standard, probably with only 12-18 in the unit instead of 20. A lone sorceress with 2 scrolls doesn't need the level 2 upgrade. Other than that, I'd want to have some mobile units (shades, harpies, etc.), but it's your list to write.

koningswulf
08-04-2010, 05:30
That most people are ok with certain items doesnt mean they think they are friendly :) but I just pointed that out as long you and your friends are cool with it thats whats important :cool:

Looks solid but I still think you need more mobile units.
Just having 1 is often not enough. Often they get shoot
and you also need both marchblock, warmachine hunt
and misdirect.
I would take away the corsairs since they are to costly for what they do.
Instead get 5 harpies and 5 darkriders and 5 Shades. (Always very handy to take important terrain and also works well for marchblock and disrupt, scouts)
Get another 4 more warrior and go 6width and put the assassin in that unit to give them some punch.
You need to free some pts for this if I am correct but should be doable.

This would give you 2 harpies, 1 dark riders and 1 shade unit contra 1 unit of corsairs. A bargain in my book, same amount of modells but far more usefull.

I know you dont like the dark riders but they are awesome for their price and can also well function as support for the knights by flanking enemies since they are so easy manauvre to get there and all you need is 3 alive in flank to negate rank bonus and gain +1cr yourself.
I have won many a battle by them.
And if they get shoot up well far better they get killed than your
Black guard ;)

Well this just my 2cents try it out and see what you like

Constantin Valdor
08-04-2010, 05:49
Hoo-wee. Thanks for the quick and helpful replies guys!

Revised list:


[CHARACTERS]

Dreadlord - 221
- RoH, AoD, Crimson Death, SDC.

Sorceress - 150
- Dispel, Dispel.

Assassin 156
- CoW, Manbane, RoK, +HW.

[CORE]

24x Spearmen - 208
- FC, Shields, War Banner.

10x RCBmen - 100

5x Harpies - 55

5x Harpies - 55

5x Dark Riders - 92
- Music.

[SPECIAL]

Shades - 90

5x Knights - 210
- FC, Banner +D3 CR.

17x Black Guard - 291
- FC, Banner ASF.

[RARE]

2x Reapers - 200

1x Hydra - 175

Total list comes out to 2003 (ironically the year when I originally dropped DE and first got into 40k with Daemonhunters. ;) Good omen perhaps?)

Don Zeko
08-04-2010, 13:40
Get another 4 more warrior and go 6width and put the assassin in that unit to give them some punch.

I'm going to have to stop you right there. The single strength 3 hit is not worth reducing your ranks and putting more enemies in base contact. In a warrior unit with an assassin, the assassin is the only model that you need to provide active combat resolution; everybody else is there for ranks.

koningswulf
08-04-2010, 14:10
I dont agree there Don Zeko.

Having 5 or 6 width wont change the attacks against them since most opponent dont have bigger width themself to get in more models.
Basicly in most times it will just give you 2 more A in defence and
1 more A in offense.
And important you should ofc still have 3 ranks.

Also it is two str3 A more since they using spears in defence
also with hatred not to forget those 12 str3 A (IncChamp)+ average 6A from assassin usally end up kill enough to justify them.
You can also against hard hitting opponents use your champion to challange that way less of your spearmen die and you get more A against opponent.
The assassin also strike first and with manbane should be able to take out some models as well leaving less to strike back.

One possible improvment is to take banner of murder to get armour piercing
for the unit inc the assassin instead of warbanner.
normally that would net you 1-2 more killed modells.
Its like those str3 horses A they always tend to kill better ;)

Then you also could swap warbanner to knights saving up 10pts.
I think warbanner is better because it always give +1Cr not only in first round when charging
and it is cheaper but ofc you can get lucky with d3 so not a big deal.

that being said there is ofc units this unit should avoid like +1AC T4 dwarfs or chaos warriors or blood vampires but other than that they work fine.
The lesser armour opponent has the better they become not all have +1ac.
If you meet opponents with lot of rock hard melee units you can easily start with 5width and have the extra 4 men in rear to take as casualties only.
Makes it easier to sustain 3rankbonus and also to win +1cr unitstrength.

The list looks good and solid now to my view, let us know how it works.


just my 2cents :)

Constantin Valdor
08-04-2010, 18:26
> Swap the banners.
Swapped the spearmen +1CR banner for the AP banner, but I have it written as either or, since they're the same points cost.
I am, however, kind of iffy on the issue of the Knights' banner. The reason for +D3 CR on charge was I was hoping to make them hit hard on the charge, hopefully win CR, and then run down the enemy (that is, I don't actually want them to get tied down in combat for more than one turn, since mounted troops are always better on the charge.)

> 6x4 not as good as 5x4
Everyone loves 5-file units, so I figured it couldn't hurt to just roll with +4 spearmen and get the 2 extra troopers attacking. I could just lay the unit down as 5x4+4, and when the assassin it pops up as 5x5, and I've got bodies to play with before losing rank bonuses.

Oh well, only playtesting will tell I guess.
Which will happen as soon as I get back home after exams, since I'll be using mostly my old models. Only things I will need to buy and paint are the Shades, the Dark Riders, and the Hydra. Though I might nab the new Dreadlord and Sorceress models because they look nice. ;)

Thanks for input everyone!

Don Zeko
08-04-2010, 19:49
I think we're misunderstanding each other, konigswulf. I absolutely agree that a block of warriors with an assassin is an effective assault unit. My only disagreement is that I think that they should not be fielded in a 6x4 formation, but should run 5 wide and as deep as possible. against most enemies, the warriors will get very few kills while the assassin will get several, so the warriors' job is to provide ranks and numbers. If you run a 24-man unit in 4 ranks to get that extra one or two S3 attacks, then the enemy only needs to get 2 kills to deprive you of your rank bonus, whereas he'll need to kill 5 if you deploy 5 wide.

Xcross
09-04-2010, 20:17
I totally agree here with zon deko, its way better just going with a 5 man front with spear warriors. The assassin is going to be the guy getting CR, since you probably won't be charged by there best unit (obvious since they can only guess where the assassin is, and a normal spear unit is not going to do much, and not more with 6 wide). You have a good chance of winning combat with fully loaded up on SCR and an assassin killing some enemies.

Constantin Valdor
09-04-2010, 21:57
>> 5x5 vs 6x4
Duly noted, I don't think I'll be changing up the number of the spearmen so it comes down to deployment.