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Malorian
08-04-2010, 15:01
Obligated Suicide


Ok, so start off this report I need to fill you in on some history.

I love my ogres, I love the way they play, and I used to use them a lot. My 120 gnoblars would control the movement phase and even acted as a living shield against shooting and magic. Once the new lizardmen book came out however I stopped using them.

Now I don’t want to get into army power levels because it has nothing to do with that. The problem is that the lizardmen counter the way my army works.

-Their mages count as large targets (at least for LOS) so they can shoot right over my screen
-Between the slann knowing all spells of a lore and skink priest now able to get more dice I not only know I’m going to be up against the comet, I might be up against multiple comets, and comets rip me apart.
-Finally a good number of his units have the same range as me so I can’t even out charge them, and since I need to leave my gnoblars behind (for fear of being march blocked and ripped apart) that means I need to use ogres as bait units.

So when I arranged to play Seabo and his beastmen I was dreading having to play the local lizardmen player.


Alright, next piece of history.

My last podcast was about deathstars, and of course I mentioned the templeguard/slann unit. Well it turns out the local lizardmen player took offense to that as not only did he bring a list with no temple guard, he interrupted my game to bring up past rule mistake, and told me all my armies had deathstars.


I was REALLY hoping that there wouldn’t be time for a game against him after my one against the beastmen, and luckily by the time we were done there was only a little bit more than a hour left and we still would have needed to clean up the board and reset my army (takes a lot of time when you have 120 gnoblars).

Unfortunately my opponent was determined and suggested we play at my house (or rather the place I rent a room). I let him know we would only have a 2X4 table, and he still went for it.

Once at my place I then proceeded to try and psych him out, telling him how the board really favored me and how there would be no room for terrain (I knew he would want terrain). It didn’t work, and in fact had a worse effect as now he wanted to run a special theme based game, most of which didn’t matter, however now my gorgers would only be able to come in on my side of the board.


Ok with that out of the way lets get to the game.


My list:

Bruiser w/ tenderiser, heavy armor, sword gnoblar
Butcher w/ bangstick
Butcher w/ scroll

20 gnoblars
20 gnoblars
20 gnoblars
20 gnoblars
20 gnoblars
20 gnoblars
3 bulls
3 bulls
3 bulls w/ extra hand weapons
3 bulls w/ extra hand weapons
3 bulls w/ extra hand weapons
3 bulls w/ extra hand weapons
3 ironguts
3 ironguts
3 ironguts

Gorger
Gorger
Total: 1999


His list: (ish)

Slann w/ ethereal, extra dice, know all spells (heavens), cupped hands, bsb
EotG w/ know extra spell, 2+ ward against first wound
EotG w/ banehead

16 ranked skinks w/ FC and 2 krox
16 ranked skinks w/ FC and 2 krox
11 skirmishing skinks
11 skirmishing skinks

3 terradons


The board was 2X4 with no terrain.

He deployed from left to right: At the back of the board: EotG, ranked skinks. Slann, ranked skinks, EotG. In front: skinks, terradons, skinks.

I deployed from left to right:
Front row: bulls, xwh bulls, ironguts w/ bruiser, xhw bulls, bulls.
Middle row: ironguts, xhw bulls w/ butcher, xhw bulls w/ butcher, ironguts
Back row: all gnoblar units

He won first turn.


Pre-Game Thoughts:

Well one of his priest got only spell 1and 2 which was good (since it’s fairly useless) but the other one got the comet, so as I feared I would have to deal with 2 comets a turn. There still was a glimmer of hope though…

The plan was to rush up as fast as I can (leaving no place the terradons could go behind me without being in charge range), smash away his skinks and terradons, bait what I could, and then counter. A fairly simple plan but it wasn’t like I had a lot of options. I also was hoping my bruiser could charge one of his stegs or even his slann, but I was sure that was wishful thinking.

(I took pictures as per request of my opponent but I can’t load them into photobucket until the weekend and they really aren’t needed.)


Turn 1 Lizardmen:

Skinks and terradons move up. I scroll 1 comet but then he gets off another and does a couple of wounds to my bruiser unit.

Turn 1 Ogres:

Comet comes down and does some wounds but I’m still intact. One unit of gnoblars bicker. Everything moves up. In the magic phase I kill one of the right skirmishing skinks with my bang stick, but never get another spell off so I won’t mention my magic phase again.

Turn 2 Lizardmen:

Terradons fly over my brusier unit and land between the front and middle row, doing a couple of wounds. In the magic phase he gets off the comet but then his slann miscasts trying to do a second. Turns out that neither of us has the book to know what the miscast was but it doesn’t matter as he transfers it with cupped hands to one of my butchers who takes a wound and can not cast for the rest of the game. Shooting then utterly destroys the bruiser and his ironguts, but panics are passed.

Turn 2 Ogres:

Comet doesn’t come down. Both gorgers come on (although they have to be on my half of the board). The naked bulls charge the skirmishing skinks on each side, who flee, and are caught, and a butcher unit charges the terradons and luckily catches them after they only roll a 6 with three dice. Other than that I move up. I fail to dispel the comet.

I figure the stegs with charge the naked bulls on each side and the skink blocks with charge my forward xhw bulls, but hopefully after I sacrifice have my ogre units to bait him I’ll be in position to counter.

Turn 3 Lizardmen:

Comet doesn’t come down, and I’m surprised as he only charges the xhw ogres (dual charging each). Both flee and pretty much get away other then the left one that is caught by the steg as it goes off the board. In the magic phase he miscast again but since we don’t know what it does we ignore it, and then he zaps a couple of ogres.

Turn 3 Ogres:

Ok, so at this point I’d taken a lot of damage but finally it was time to fight back. The plan was for a gorger and unit of ironguts charge the left skink unit while a xhw unit flanked them, and then on the right side I would hit the steg in the flank with a unit of bulls and gorger while I then move around to setup a counters for the right skink unit… but…

COMET OF DOOM!!!

The comet comes down and rolls a 6, and when you multiplied it out by the markers it meant EVERYTHING was hit except for his slann and my naked bulls on the right.

Now sure he took a few losses (his priest was forced to use the 2+ ward to stay alive) but my army was decimated. Units were ripped apart (losing the left gorger completely), units panicked, the panicking units panicked other units, and when all was said and done I almost had nothing to work with.

With little else to do I charge 2 remaining ironguts into the front of the left skinks (it was charge or be charged) and attempted to charge the naked bulls and gorger into the flank of the steg but after a failed fear test it was only the gorger going in. In combat the ironguts kill a krox but are then beaten and ran down, and the gorger kills the priest before being killed by the steg.3

Turn 4 Lizardmen:

Left skinks charge some gnoblars, right skinks and steg charge xhw bulls with butcher. Steg comes on. In the magic phase I take some wounds from EotG laser beams and spells, and in combat both units are defeated however my 10 gnoblars and lone butcher with 2 wounds gets away.

Turn 4 Ogres:

So at this point (after rallies) I have 1 butcher, 1 xhw ogre, 3 naked bulls, and 2 units of gnoblars. The naked bulls reform to face the flank/rear of his right units and the right gnoblars move up to support.

Turn 5 Lizardmen:

Butcher, lone bull, and left gnoblars all get charged and are all wiped out, and the magic/shooting phase panics the naked bulls off the board.

Turn 5 Ogres:

With only 1 unit of gnoblars left I still have an ace up my sleeve as they are facing the flank of the right skinks… but I roll a 1 and they bicker instead.

At this point we call the game.

Victory to the Lizardmen! (As if I need a spoiler...)


Post-Game Thoughts:

Well that went even worse than I thought it would. I had hoped to do at least a little damage but then the comet of doom kind of ruined it, and honestly I was lucky to have not been hit by more comets due to his miscasts.

So at this point many of you are wondering, “Malorian, why did you even bother to post this report?”

Well there are two reasons:

1. My opponent expects it.

2. I’m now asking the people of Warseer, knowing full well my opponent is reading this, as to how I should deal with this Lizardmen player.

Typically when I play at this club most of my games will either be against the beastmen player (looking for a fun semi-competitive game) or this lizardmen player (looking for a competitive game).

Now take new week for example, I plan on bringing my Welsh Legion (extremely themed/limited empire army) and while the beastmen player is looking forward to it in one way the lizardmen player is looking forward to blowing it up with comets (and fact he even brought up how he blasted his last empire opponent apart with comets).

So here is the question:

How should I handle this mix of players:

1. Just keep bringing my typical lists and just try to do my best (show him the way through example).

2. Start bring competitive armies to rip him apart (show him the way by force).

3. Bring two different lists, one to play against the beastmen and one for the lizardmen.

I’d post a poll but I’m sure people would vote before they even read down to this question, so please post your thoughts in your reply.


(I should also note that the lizardmen player isn’t a ‘jerk’ or ‘WAAC player’, he’s a nice guy that has grown addicted to magic heavy armies.)

w3rm
08-04-2010, 15:27
How does he say all of your armies have deathstars? Your lists are by far the most fun and least min/maxing lists I have seen. You take mostly core and little magic and most of your armies are heavily themed... and a 2x4 board? Really? I dont understand why he wanted to play you so bad. To prove that his 12 powerdice double EotG+Slaan list could beat your Ogre army?

stiltjet
08-04-2010, 15:39
Which one of the alternatives would bring you, and your opponents, the most fun?

If the Lizardmen player wants you to bring the cheese to the table, maybe it would make for a better, or at least less one-sided, battle if you did.

If you do not like to bring the cheese, maybe you should just continue playing the armies you like, and hopefully you will find ways to put up a fight with those lists, or the Lizardmen player will get tired of blasting your units to hell with his magic.

You could also alternate, play a cheesed out list ones in a while, play the more fluffier lists, when you feel like it. I do not really think you should go with either one of the alternatives, but go with the type of list your gut feeling says you want to play on the day when you will play the game.

Maybe playing around with different scenarios or set army limitations would mix up the experience as well, if both your opponents like that kind of thing..

What do you think about the situation yourself?
What do you think the other players would prefer?

rtunian
08-04-2010, 15:40
to me, it makes the most sense for you to bring 2 lists. if you are doing fluffy/fun with the beastman and competitive with the lizardman, with only 1 list, either you are going to hammer the beast and be 50/50 with the lizard, or be 50/50 with the beast and get hammered by the lizard.

this is under the assumption that you have tried talking to the lizardman player about the kind of lists that you, as an opponent, want to play. if you have talked about it and said "i'd like to play fluffy fun lists" and he says "be my guest. i'm still bringing the pain" then there's naught else you can do. but this is no reason to punish the beast player, so i say 2 lists, until your opponents can figure out some kind of common ground.

do the beast & lizard player play each other ever? i wonder how that goes...

kaubin
08-04-2010, 15:41
Personally I would make several lists and bring more models than I need. There's no point in not playing your best against someone who wants to play competitively, and it's always fun to play goofier lists that are funner, so no real need that you should limit yourself to one or the other.

In my area most players are casual, and the more competitive gameplay is left more to the the tournaments, that creep up about once every 1-2 months.

Malorian
08-04-2010, 16:02
What do you think about the situation yourself?
What do you think the other players would prefer?

A part of me wants to bring out my vampires and crush him, but I also know that escalating things usually doesn't work.

I'm not sure how the Lizardmen player feels but I'm sure the beastmen player would be happiest if we all had more fun.

dvang
08-04-2010, 18:30
How about talking to the Lizardman player? Play it down and inflate his ego "We know your typical Lizzie list will crush my Ogres, so how about using my Ogres as a testing ground/punching bag for you to use to play with different units that you won't normally field against more competitive lists ". See if he's willing to experiment with his list a bit.

Otherwise, I'd suggest taking 2 lists. One for fun and one more competitive.

stiltjet
08-04-2010, 18:45
The solution that brings the most fun for all would probably be a good idea to aim towards.

Maybe the three of you could talk it all through and find a way forward that everyone can enjoy. Alternating between casual and competitive play different weekends, or something like that, might work. It will not get the same kicks blasting the other players army to bits with magic every time. If the Lizardmen player realises that you might be able to make some changes. Or maybe he just wants to blast away a couple of games more, before trying out having actual troops on the table. If that is the case, maybe you could just continue to play him a bit more, and wait until he realises that he is missing out on a lot of the tactical subtleties that a good game of Warhammer can include.

What would happen if you just tried to talk this through with your opponents, explaining your view on the situation, and your different thoughts on what can be done, by you, by the others, and if they in turn got to express their views? Maybe you could find some common ground, or just decide to try different things out for a couple of weeks, shake things up a bit, and then talk again, and discuss how you liked it? Seems to me you would like to have some change, maybe the other players want that as well, if the three of you just sat down and talked about it.

Who knows, maybe that Lizardmen player just wants someone to seriously beat down his Enginespam list, before he is willing to try anything else out? If so, your Vamps have an important mission to resolve.

Just a couple of thoughts..

GuyLeCheval
08-04-2010, 18:46
Solution: Drop the bangstick, frop something else, take 3 more scrolls. Done.

But at least you've the guts to say this Mal. Respect.

FORtheGREATERgood
08-04-2010, 19:51
I vote for two lists. As previously mentioned, things may escalate against the lizardmen, but it will be a much more even matchup. It will also show the lizzie player that he may need to modify his list a bit and show him the downfalls of his mainly magic army. My opponents almost always bring different lists which leads to the fun factor. I never know what to expect. This is also due to my assumption that the Welsh Legion doesn't have much magic protection and will just get cometed off the table. Against an army like the beastmen though, I would definitely like to see the Welsh Legion over a VC list that may end up wrecking the beasts.

Dungeon_Lawyer
09-04-2010, 02:31
The only deathstar/super mean list I have read in your reports is your VC army-

This dude is taking a Slann plus 2 EOTG'S? My retarded 6 toed cat could win with that crap..he didnt beat you, his list did.
Only play that **** w/your VC....

And dont let him talk you into stuff you dont want to do either, just walk away...

Ayliffe
09-04-2010, 05:11
The only deathstar/super mean list I have read in your reports is your VC army-

This dude is taking a Slann plus 2 EOTG'S? My retarded 6 toed cat could win with that crap..he didnt beat you, his list did.
Only play that **** w/your VC....

And dont let him talk you into stuff you dont want to do either, just walk away...

This, if he's gonna bring unfriendly lists, do the same, he obviously gets a kick out of slaughtering less-than-competitive lists, so bringing an underpowered list won't help. Bring your VC, and slaughter him through superior playing with an equally competitive list. I hope he reads this..

Djekar
09-04-2010, 07:46
I vote for 2 lists. Plus, list building is fun, so you get twice as much fun as before!!

Garion
09-04-2010, 10:15
Yeah bring your VC and destroy him, you could easily assemble a pure cheese VC army that would slaughter him, so do it and then tell him to play nice in future

Paraelix
09-04-2010, 10:24
Take the Ring of Hotek >_>

Malorian
09-04-2010, 12:56
The only deathstar/super mean list I have read in your reports is your VC army-

This dude is taking a Slann plus 2 EOTG'S? My retarded 6 toed cat could win with that crap..he didnt beat you, his list did.
Only play that **** w/your VC....

And dont let him talk you into stuff you dont want to do either, just walk away...

Now now, lets not attack him personally.

As I said he's a nice guy who has just gotten addicted to magic. He did seem out to get me thanks to him taking offense to my podcast but that's not the real issue here.


For a while he had dropped the slann for an oldbood on carni, and so it was looking pretty good, but even then he would have the two EotG.

I just need to show him that warhammer fantasy isn't just about magic and you don't need to summon X number of comets or cast spirit of the forge X number times to win a game. I can either do that by sticking to my usual lists and try for wins with low magic armies, or I can bring out the big guns with my 15 PD vampires and 3 balefire corpse carts...


Now that I've had mroe time to think about it I think what I will do is bring friendly lists on the days that I know the beastmen player will be there and when I know he won't be there then I'll bring a stronger list.



Take the Ring of Hotek >_>

DE player: Ha ha! You just miscast with your slann!
LM player: *rolls dice for cupped hands* Nope, your scroll caddie did.
DE player: Doh...

Kuolema
09-04-2010, 15:20
next time you really should make sure he rolls on the miscast table =/
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470843_Warhammer_Reference_Sheet.pdf

some of those results really could of changed the game

also the comet is a remains in play spell meaning you can dispel it during your magic phase using power dice, which would of worked much better imo =x

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2050140_Lore_of_Heavens.pdf

Kuolema
09-04-2010, 15:38
Just two little suggestions, against someone playing so magic heavy you really shouldn't let them off when they miscast. If you don't have the brb there is a an article in the FAQ part of the gaming articles on the official games workshop site you can use.

Also you didn't mention what you where actually doing with your power dice so I'm not sure if you where trying this or not, but as far as I know the comet is a remains in play spell meaning you can use your own power dice to dispel it during your magic phase.

moose
09-04-2010, 15:57
All the armylists I create are printed off and kept in a folder. I take this along with my rulebooks etc for all my games as it's nice to have everything in one place.

The standard 2.5k list is at the front and is used for most of my games. The other lists are a good backup plan for players like your lizardman guy, or in case you get a bit bored one day.

As long as you don't chop and change for every single battle, it's not exactly tailoring. Just a method to ensure you can have fun and compete in all your games.


Moose.

grumbaki
09-04-2010, 15:58
1. Bring your Welsh Legion.
2. Back up the legion with 4 great cannons.
2a. Blast apart the EoG's.
3. Bring the seal of destruction and 2x dispel scrolls

So he gets 1-2 comet spells. With some luck you can destroy 1 of them (hopefully the one that the slaan has) and with the 2 scrolls you can stop up to 3 comets. By that time you should be able to take down the EoG and get into combat.

I'd also have huntsmen hang out on his end of the board and get behind him. Sure, he might send his skinks to fight them, but if he is doing that then they are not messing with the rest of your army. Plus the huntsmen can take out any lone mages (after you cannon takes out the EoG). I say this because I've only faced an EoG once and when I did it was my huntsmen who sniped the skink who found himself standing alone on the field.

Whitehorn
09-04-2010, 16:10
The list is daft, but the board is stupid. 2x4 against 2 AOTE unstoppable effects with 17 units?

Take a proper board would be my answer.

SevenSins
09-04-2010, 16:19
I'd be another vote for the 2 list aproach. One friendly and one competetive, so everyone has a nice challenging game.

While bringing on the vamps probably would give you revenge, doing it with a balanced list would be more fun for the both of you

Malorian
09-04-2010, 17:17
1. Bring your Welsh Legion.
2. Back up the legion with 4 great cannons.
2a. Blast apart the EoG's.
3. Bring the seal of destruction and 2x dispel scrolls



My Welsh Legion aren't allowed to have anything to do with magic other than taking the imperial banner.

grumbaki
09-04-2010, 17:26
Not even two level 1's? I mean, just as imperial advisors (no spell casting, as they are scroll caddy's anyways). Well, at the very least I applaud you for that decision. I was going to suggest a pegasi with aldred's casket, but again that breaks the rules.

I'd just challenge him to a different kind of game. "Look, I am playing a list with no magic items and no spells. I don't even bring warrior priests! If you want to bring your magic heavy list, then find someone else to play against because it won't be fun. But hey, bring some Saurus instead and do a CC list, and we could have a good game."

Once he realizes that he can't bug you into a game he might relent and have some fun. Especially when he realizes that he won't get a game any other way....

Heck, or just challenge him to a 1999 point game. No Slaan, no double EoG. At most he can get a EoG and 2 skink priests. Find who has Comet and suicide some vanilla knights or huntsmen into him to remove the threat, and voila, a fun game. Without the comet he can do what? d6 str 4 hits? A few re-rolls? :D

Malorian
09-04-2010, 17:30
I'm not the type to outright refuse someone to a game (although I might try to avoid it). I'm more of the type to bring the worst list I can to make you not enjoy the game either or use draw tactics just to ruin your score in a tournament ;)


And 1999 wouldn't limit him too much. In the last game the beastment player had against the lizardmen player the LM player didn't take a slann but instead had FOUR engines of the gods!!

The beastmen player only stood a chance because the LM player split his forces.

Dundaz
09-04-2010, 18:22
Being a Lizardmen Army owner, the way I would use Ogres against me would be :

IMPACT HITS and try to win at combat res.

On his list if you charge any of those units the Leadership is 7 at most, and even with cold-bloodedness rolling under a 6 or a 7 still suck for 3 dice. Especially if you dice aren't hot.

As for the EOTG, tie him up with a charging unit and attack the priest. With a high strength the Armor save goes down, sooner or later his dice will fail.
If you have poison attack, they are the bane of Stegadons.
Aslo, if you are charging in to his units there is a chance when the Comet goes off that his units will be hit.

Oh and most importantly, bring you miscast table. You say it's not important but in fact that could have been the game turner right there.

I hope this help.

PS I don't like his list.

Dundaz
09-04-2010, 18:25
The other key to the game I have found, no matter what army you play and what are you are playing. The most fun are balanced armys. Because you will always have something to play in each phase and can respond in each phase.

Dungeon_Lawyer
10-04-2010, 05:20
Being a Lizardmen Army owner, the way I would use Ogres against me would be :

IMPACT HITS and try to win at combat res.

On his list if you charge any of those units the Leadership is 7 at most, and even with cold-bloodedness rolling under a 6 or a 7 still suck for 3 dice. Especially if you dice aren't hot.

As for the EOTG, tie him up with a charging unit and attack the priest. With a high strength the Armor save goes down, sooner or later his dice will fail.
If you have poison attack, they are the bane of Stegadons.
Aslo, if you are charging in to his units there is a chance when the Comet goes off that his units will be hit.

Oh and most importantly, bring you miscast table. You say it's not important but in fact that could have been the game turner right there.

I hope this help.

PS I don't like his list.

Orge Rhinox heavy cav kicked my face in last year-A few of them would be alot of fun against a multi-eotg list, present a stiffer challenge to mr. cheese, and make for an awesome batrep. ALthough you would be powergaming like him, but hey you're a vet, you know what needs to be done. Id like to see you take a harder OK list and smash his face in. You could start a new thread to track how many games/list permutations it takes for you to break through and massacre him-----

xeno106
10-04-2010, 06:20
Well why not just swapp armies from time to time. Let him see the other side and then ask him if it was fun. Just like that. If he is a nice guy as you say and actually has taken in at least some of your critic then he will in now way say no. If he actually says no, then I would suggest that you take 2 lists. A fun one for the beastie boy and a more competetive one for the beast :D

mythic77
11-04-2010, 23:08
I would say take two lists. One for each opponent.

That being said I don't think I have every faced a really crazy list at higher levels so I can't eally tell you how I would deal with it...

Dantès
12-04-2010, 00:24
The way I always teach a cheese list like that is recognize what his biggest strengths are, and seek to make those strengths worthless.

For example, whenever I play Daemons, I take tons of slaves and clanrats, because no matter how many his horrors/flamers kill, there's 15 more just like them right there. Throw in some jezzails/pcb to take out his biggest baddies and it's an easy game.

For you, I'd recommend shutting down his magic phase entirely. I'm not sure how Ogre dispel work, but I'm assuming you get 2 for the army, and 1 for each Butcher?? If that's the case, load up on Butchers, and take as many dispel scrolls as you can. Stop his comet the first two turns and that's all you need to be able to wipe him off the table.

It seems to me that not only did he play on a board that was very unfavorable to you, he did so with a very cheesy list, told you your gorgers have to come in on your board edge (makes them pretty worthless...), and didn't bother about checking on miscasts. He didn't just pick a very competitive army to go against your fun list, he beat you before the game ever started by picking that board, no cover, and screwing up your gorgers.

Really the best option you have is to use the Empire. Whether you want to include them or not, a couple mages would be the best thing for you. You can have two lists, the fun Welsh, and then a competitive list where all you do is add in a couple cannons and a few mages. That way, you will beat the lizardmen player, and have fun vs the Beastmen player, and all you had to do was bring 2 cannons and 3 mages, no need for extra carrying cases or anything.

Lemonbrick
12-04-2010, 07:28
I would offer to play him again vs that list with 3 major changes.
1. bigger board size - small boards I think make the comets super mean.
2. no 'sceanario' which only cripples the gorgers - one of your ace in the holes!
3. miscasts. these are supposed to be the brakes on uber magic (its made me completely change my O&G)

and I would bring 1 more dispel over the bangstick

just my thoughts.

yabbadabba
12-04-2010, 08:26
If I may suggest Malorian, just grab a brew and chat to him. Explain the pitfalls of his army and how, in your experience, he is heading for a big fall by being over reliant on one phase of the game. Explain and offer to show him some examples. If after all that he is happy to carry on, take him to the cleaners.

Vsurma
12-04-2010, 09:22
I agree with what has already been said, more scrolls.

Either go with 3 wizards or just 2 with 2 scrolls.

You have to let all the other spells through and just dispell the comets, hope he doesn't get them on IF.

Ironguts are fairly decent against stegs so I don't think the engines are that bad but comets ruin your day.

Still 2 mages with 4 scrolls should do it really, though I would like 5 dispell dice, as that actually allows you to dispell them with the dice as well.

Malorian
12-04-2010, 16:44
If I may suggest Malorian, just grab a brew and chat to him. Explain the pitfalls of his army and how, in your experience, he is heading for a big fall by being over reliant on one phase of the game. Explain and offer to show him some examples. If after all that he is happy to carry on, take him to the cleaners.

He reads these forums (still haven't figured out his user name) and so I'm sure he's reading all this and getting the point that if things don't change the spell caddies are going to start marching in ;)

yabbadabba
12-04-2010, 16:47
Then hears to a happy gaming Malorian, or a happy Malorian with an extensive, warhammer brand, leather travel and fashion goods wardrobe :)

Seabo
12-04-2010, 19:27
I would be the Beastman player lol.
I enjoy making up rather wacky, at least half core lists and seeing what they can do. As a result I dont exactly have the greatest record...go figure lol.
I despise Powergamers, part of the reason why i dont enter tourneys very often. I play because I like the game not to bash the face in of every opponent.
That being said, I dont think Mr.Lizardman is a 'powergamer'. He has crazy gouda lists yes, but more because he has an insane fascination with the Comet and pretty much his entire strategy revolves around.
And, in all defence, the 4 EotG list was a 'themed' list:evilgrin:.
It was a frustrating battle yes but at the same time it is good to play against a fresh new perspective. He turned down my offer for a 3k battle :(. Too bad, Beasties are nasty at high points lol.
I believe I will start bringing a few lists. Including, if i can do it lol, an uber smashing list of doom:D

Woodsman
12-04-2010, 20:24
I'm a little surprised as the Lizzie player you used to play Mal ( this was about a year ago) seemed like a great guy, I presume it's someone different as I remember the two of you talking on here and if you haven't figured out a user name...

It sounds like you just need to disable his magic phase and make the stegs useless and he'll learn to mix up his lists a bit more. Hows about a dwarrow gunline? It's fire with fire I know. Then again it all seems a bit childish.

Maybe just punt him one, pick him up, say sorry(optional), chuck him a bevy and move on.

@Seabo. don't stoop to their level IMHO I'm a huge fan of lists just as you describe. Go SeaGuard hoard! Anyone can make a power army it takes something else to mkae something unusual/interesting/eye-catching.

*Woody jumps down off his soap box, slings it over one shoulder and moves off to another thread*

Oh, and for the record Mal, your batreps are one of the few reasons I still play warhammer...

Malorian
12-04-2010, 20:56
Oh, and for the record Mal, your batreps are one of the few reasons I still play warhammer...

Wow, thanks :)

meneroth
13-04-2010, 16:56
beat him with your ogers....how?

simple = 3 butchers.

its a little more cheesy but you can easily drop one when playing with your less competitive buddy. 3 butchers makes ogres pretty dangerous, especially when going against another magic army.

ogres can beat lizards, my buddy does it all the time, but he takes 3 butchers and it does change the way they play a fair amount.

Malorian
13-04-2010, 18:31
I never said ogres can't beat lizardmen, I said the way I play ogres (gnoblar screen, MSU, 1 scroll... basically my standard list) struggles against the new magic heavy lizardmen.

meneroth
13-04-2010, 18:38
yea, and im saying that if your looking to tweak your list while still being able to play your beastmen friend then drop a unit of gnoblars or a unit of bulls and fit in another butch when going against the lizardman guy. this way you dont have to write a whole new list or bring out your VC if you dont want to, yet it will make your magic more dangerous and stop his a bit more.

Malorian
13-04-2010, 18:39
So basically your vote is for two different lists

Woodsman
14-04-2010, 07:15
Haha, No credit where it's due.

I remember when i was getting back into the hobby, heading to my local store to be met by a bunch of smurf wielding infantiles who look at anyone they don't know coming in as some sort of freak, and fantasy, whats that?
I thought the internet would be a fair place to meet some like minded people, similar to my old gaming crowd. Relaxed, looking for fun and banter whilst trying to improve at their hobby without reducing the fun to be had.

First thread I came across, some poor chap looking to move from 40k had asked a question about the Helf 'codex' the first 3 replies where all tearing him a new one. In the vein of; we've all got our heads up our a@*e's here and because we're grown up we call them armybooks:wtf:.

F&~k me I thought what sort of people play fantasy?
Next thread, a VC player is calling anyone who takes dispel scrolls weak - VC, WTF:confused:. I think, if you have to throw stones, that army wide fear and ItP is more of a crutch.

I switched to tactics hoping that people here would be grizzled vets giving out friendly advice. First thread someone is advising a newbie to take minimum core and max chaos nights at 1000pts. "You can't loose" is the advice.

Army lists did nothing to life the spirits. Few fluffy lists, they mainly seemed to revolve around min core +big monster+maxed out heroes:cheese:.

In battle reports however, your vampires (lahmian were they?) had something a little different. Not the most obvious list, yet not underpowered. The reports showed people still had imagination and still played for fun. That the art of making a fairly balanced list and then learning it inside out, until you can go up against anything, was not lost.

They seemed unbeatable and then blackjack(iirc) and a good lizard list gave you a run for yer money.

Thus I persevered with warseer and have realised there are great people and great threads, you just have to skim off the dross and take everything with gurt big pinches of salt.

Having now wasted my morning. it's time for breakfast!

brother slaughterer
14-04-2010, 07:55
So basically your vote is for two different lists

i would concur with pretty much everything thats been said about taking 2 lists.

1) The fluffy, balanced, themed, fun list to play against the Beastmen guy.
2) The more competitive list to play against the lizard dude...as long as it is a list that you will still enjoy playing and not just cheesed to the max in order to wipe him out (unless thats what you want...although I dont think it is).

You say that you dont like blanking or refusing games but why should you feel like that? You dont enjoy playing this guy in this way, so dont play him for a while. Play the people and the games you do enjoy...after all it is only a game.

Love your reports so keep em coming.

Cheers

Spiney Norman
14-04-2010, 08:09
A few suggestions

1. Get a copy of the Miscast chart, I can't believe you let him ignore a miscast, my Lizardmen list isn't as abusive as that, and I have actually run the TG Deathstar myself in the past. In my last game my Slann killed 10 TG from a single miscast (result 4), which pretty much finished the unit off with a little help from my opponents waywatchers. Miscasts are often the easiest way for a Slann to get wounded/die.

2. If the comet doesn't come down, you have a chance to dispel it in your own casting phase using your casting dice, always do it

3. Lead belchers

Hope that was useful

Mawchild
14-04-2010, 08:43
ok my advice would be drop some bulls and gnoblers and add in some belchers and if you possibly can a scrap launcher. These will destroy the ranked skink units, plus the belchers make for a good bait unit.

Against magic heavy lists the hell heart, great skull, runemaw are your friends be sure to use them as is x3 thiefstones. Perhaps a mini death star of IGs or maneaters with runemaw(bsb if maneaters) and thiefstones will ensure that atleast one unit willl get where you want it reletively unharmed.

You could take scragg and just swamp him with gorgers. 8 gorgers plus two squads of maneaters, butcher with hellheart, butcher with scrolls and bsb with tenderiser would work.

Tyrant with greatweapon, "beast killer", great skull, thiefstone and greyback pelt with a luck gnoblar n 2 sword gnoblars will be effective against stegs and be a problem to target with magic.

Theres no reason that you can't optimise your list to take on the lizzies but still have a fun game against the beastmen it will just require a little thought. Don't bring the vamps since when you do finally get that win with the big boys it will taste sweeter than roasted halfling stuffed with elf (get your butcher to ask mine for the recipe).

selone
14-04-2010, 12:47
I can't really give you any advice Mal on list/strategy as I'm not much of an OK player, but its an uphill battle using OK against that sort fo army. If he won't take gentle hints bring out the Invoc spam :D




I switched to tactics hoping that people here would be grizzled vets giving out friendly advice. First thread someone is advising a newbie to take minimum core and max chaos nights at 1000pts. "You can't loose" is the advice.

Whilst I get what you're trying to say with your post, I have to ask what is the problem with this bit of your post. CK spam is by no means unbeatable but it is one of the (if not the) stronger army build. Isn't that what you would want from a tactics section?

I appreciate that this build is decried amongst teh internet but it is what I'd advise someone who was new to Warriors of Chaos to use mainly because its simple and effective.

I have far more irritation with posters who basically encourage new players to take horrible lists/units because they're cool/once they killed something really big. The new player then gets an ass whoopin' and wonders why (s)he has spent a lot of money on a dud army.

Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for themed armies and there needs to be more of them, I loved the old back of the book armylists but themed armies and campaigns are in my opinion better served for when you've got a few more games under your belt.

Woodsman
14-04-2010, 15:43
Well, when I started playing I didn't have a computer so asking for tactical advice was a bit of a problem...:cool:

I suppose I should expect it, but is it really tactics? So you buy your new army(knight unit) learn how to use your two units and one-trick pony tactic and then what? Find some new friends? Iirc the lad was just asking what sort of list would be reasonable. I'm sure anyone could come up with something more original and as effective. I don't really see it as helping a beginner. Use some different units, get a feel for the army, compete in a few different phases then if you really want to sell your soul for some WAAC load up on whatever.

I find CK spam very hard to deal with at lower point levels, this could just be me though.

I did so enjoy my rant earlier I wanted to get as much bilge included as possible really:skull:

As to campaigns, they're for me the most interesting way of playing the game, what is a battle without context? I think you're spot on that it takes time to get into this and into fluffy armies as well.
I do not however, believe that this means newbies should be pointed in the way of overly simple and one-dimensional lists because they're a little easier to play.

Malorian
14-04-2010, 16:15
I do not however, believe that this means newbies should be pointed in the way of overly simple and one-dimensional lists because they're a little easier to play.

New players should be shown all aspects of the game and then 'encouraged' to at least start with balanced list until they decide on a gaming style.

selone
14-04-2010, 16:52
I suppose I should expect it, but is it really tactics? So you buy your new army(knight unit) learn how to use your two units and one-trick pony tactic and then what? Find some new friends? Iirc the lad was just asking what sort of list would be reasonable. I'm sure anyone could come up with something more original and as effective. I don't really see it as helping a beginner. Use some different units, get a feel for the army, compete in a few different phases then if you really want to sell your soul for some WAAC load up on whatever.

I find CK spam very hard to deal with at lower point levels, this could just be me though.

I did so enjoy my rant earlier I wanted to get as much bilge included as possible really:skull:

As to campaigns, they're for me the most interesting way of playing the game, what is a battle without context? I think you're spot on that it takes time to get into this and into fluffy armies as well.
I do not however, believe that this means newbies should be pointed in the way of overly simple and one-dimensional lists because they're a little easier to play.

Telling someone to use chaos knights is army building, explaining to take them because WOC need to get into combat quickly and have no skirmishers/very limited missile troops is tactics. If the responder just said use chaos knights as an answer to a more complicated question then no his answer isn't very helpful.

I'll make no bones about it I do sometimes go down the CK spam route, not always but about 1/3rd to 1/2 of my games. There are tactics to it such as screening, flanking and redirection (you NEED warhounds and marauder horsemen as well as perhaps chaos spawn/small units of marauders) so I think it's a little dismissive to suggest its a two army unit with one trick. Certainly its not guaranteed to take them along and just murder the enemy as I found out at a tounrament:D

I agree that compared to other armies its a little limited but then again the WOC list as a whole isn't brimming with tactics as you lack skirmishers, flying units and missile troops. Your army really has a get in close combat by turn 3 or I've lost sort of feel to it. Taking less knights and more slower stuff just increases the chance you'll get march blocked.

Yes you can probably make other builds and perhaps get more originality but really the army build has probably been done by someone somewhere else, even my Throgg army has been done before. I don't want to get into a is CK spam the most effective build simply because theres a lot of subjectivety in it just personally I belive CK, mage spam is only rivalled by Valkia, chosen warshrine combo.

In an ideal world the new beginner would face someone with both having 'balanced lists' the new beginner might find his trundling chaos warriors left behind but that's okay- hopefully his/her opponent would be good enough to charge them. Personally I'd try my best to ensure the new player at least drew if not won :)

To pick up one of your points WOC can't compete in many of the phases sadly. It's just a design of the armybook. I don't think its a WAAC approach to not want half your army in combat turn 3 and the other turn 5 :)

CK spam can be hard to counter at low levels thats true, especially khorne knight spam. The real knight killer, the lore of metal level 6 spell isn't easy to do below 2 K. Apologies if the advice is insultingly self-evident but you have to be march blocking them turn 1 really and failing that get them charging rubbish and whittle them down.

I think campaigns are the best part of the game and I totally agree what point a battle with no context, it does take a while to get into. I've already covered to some extent how I think a new player should be introduced (with a friendly, instructive opponent) but if a new player is going to be thrust in at the deep end I'd have no problems advising him/her to go for an all mounted army, hey that's a theme right ;)

Woodsman
14-04-2010, 17:09
In an ideal world the new beginner would face someone with both having 'balanced lists' the new beginner might find his trundling chaos warriors left behind but that's okay- hopefully his/her opponent would be good enough to charge them. Personally I'd try my best to ensure the new player at least drew if not won :)



THIS. This is what warhammer should be.

sadly we do seem to have lost the ability to tone things down for someone to find their feet. This is one of the issues I first had with warseer.

I don't actually know that much about WoC so I should probably steer clear of a discuss:).
An army I know a little more about is high elves. If you gander through armylist threads beginning something like "First attempt at HE" or "Giving HE a go" you'll see a large variety of lists.

After a few posts of advice I'd bet a weeks wages on:
Phoenix Guard removed,
Silver Helms removed,
Sea Guard removed,
tiranoc chariots removed,
Dragon prince spam inserted,(I wonder if there's a huge university turning these guys out in Ulthuan somewhere:shifty:)
various sterotypical charcters coming into being.
minimum core.

Ok so these might be great advice for a tourney army but, we know you can play with all those options and have fun with them and win. Should we all jump on new players and say; don't take x take 3y. Or should we say, phoenix guard huh? great models, need a fighty character and banner of x. Also work well with some good flanking options, what d'yuo think about a chariot/dragon prince/swordmaster etc.

I don't buy the auto choices anyways. Often at a tourney, the surprise of having something everyone else dismisses, can go a long way. I remember the HighElf guy who won the grand tourney thingy a couple of years ago took LSG core and yet almost everyone will tell you their not worth it.

Woodsman
14-04-2010, 17:10
New players should be shown all aspects of the game and then 'encouraged' to at least start with balanced list until they decide on a gaming style.

Absolutely Spot on.

selone
14-04-2010, 17:19
An army I know a little more about is high elves. If you gander through armylist threads beginning something like "First attempt at HE" or "Giving HE a go" you'll see a large variety of lists.

After a few posts of advice I'd bet a weeks wages on:
Phoenix Guard removed,
Silver Helms removed,
Sea Guard removed,
tiranoc chariots removed,
Dragon prince spam inserted,(I wonder if there's a huge university turning these guys out in Ulthuan somewhere:shifty:)
various sterotypical charcters coming into being.
minimum core.

Ok so these might be great advice for a tourney army but, we know you can play with all those options and have fun with them and win. Should we all jump on new players and say; don't take x take 3y. Or should we say, phoenix guard huh? great models, need a fighty character and banner of x. Also work well with some good flanking options, what d'yuo think about a chariot/dragon prince/swordmaster etc.

I don't buy the auto choices anyways. Often at a tourney, the surprise of having something everyone else dismisses, can go a long way. I remember the HighElf guy who won the grand tourney thingy a couple of years ago took LSG core and yet almost everyone will tell you their not worth it.

On the high elves yes I imagine thats what people will say. I do think there are different levels of strength in options in an army list from very good to can do alright if you use them well to only work with a cunning plan to redundant.

I actually think phoenix guard are very usable with a plan for them, they're fairly hard to kill (god send in a otherwise fragile army) and can provide good scr. Whilst I don't think you need dragon princes I can see why people would say swop silver helms for dragon princes as they both have exactly the same role but one is much better at it for seven points more.

But I digress I think you can use most of the units in a HE army just some you need to fit your plan around if you understand.

The LSG player has good times coming :)

Woodsman
14-04-2010, 21:37
I hope so. they used to be some of my favouritis models.

I think you can extend your point though that you can use most of the units in most armies if you fit in a plan.

The chaos knight thread mainly annoyed me 'cause I almost always hate spam of an armybook's most powerful units. How many people seem to go with the Thorek and the Royal dwarven artillery. Or a helfen army of Caledor -I really love the fluff, luckily I get to use all the best elf units as well!:)

Not that there's anything wrong with that, I think we've all probably built power-ish lists at one time, but you don't improve unless you're really racking your brains. I don't think I really improve even then but, ho-hum:o

Anyhow, this sort of thing is what I like on warseer. Somesort of discussion on what people feel of the game etc. opinions voiced without offending or being offended.

selone
14-04-2010, 22:06
Sorry Mal for the hi-jack but yeah it's a good discussion :)

I'm fairly confident that people who like LSG will like this year in FB as you can read on the rumour threads. Yes you can use most units in an army for WoC you can use infantry but then I think you have to go heavy infantry Chaos warriors and chaos knights just doesn't work IMO.

I'm not a massive fan of special characters but dwarves are unique in that their SC is truly game breaking, other races may get undercosted or very good SC's but dwarves get a one that actually changes the game and is from all accounts not fun to play against.

I think warriors of chaos are a little different to most other amies out there. Most armies have power builds which these days generally include one anvil unit and other stuff. Most armies also have decent, balanced lists that can do alright which whilst not as good as Power Build TM would provide more of a challenge for the player and more of a friendlier game for the casual opponent.
WoC's can spam a unit (khorne chaos knights) and take a sorceror and do pretty well, whereas most other WOC builds don't do that well at all. It's all or nothing caused by an army book that has very little flexibility.

Malorian
14-04-2010, 22:10
Sorry Mal for the hi-jack but yeah it's a good discussion :)

I don't mind. As you said it's a good discussion.

Had it turned into name calling I would have locked it by now ;)



I'm not a massive fan of special characters but dwarves are unique in that one of their SC is truly game breaking...

I fixed that statement for you ;) It's important to note that I haven't met anyone that thinks their other two special characters are cheesy in any way.

selone
14-04-2010, 22:20
Dwarfs have other SC than Thorek? :confused:

Woodsman
14-04-2010, 22:44
Well I never! :p

Yeah, also apologies to Mal I totally forgot this was a battle report:shifty:

I totally love the Thorek model btw, in fact all the dwarf range look pretty great.

WoC do seem to go down the magic and/or knights route a lot. How does a marauderer horde scheme play out? or am I clutching at straws? Of course DoC go so far the other way it's equally hard to make a balanced list.

What would you suggest to a newcomer thinking of taking up the army? (roughly!)

Although a lot of Brets play with no peasants I always reccomend a unit or two, allowing people to get a feel for how things function and used to the big blocks of footsoldiers and missile troops. Although it may not be the most effective army, I believe learning about certain key game mechanics is important early on. (we can generally contrive to lose a few times to keep moral up). I suppose this method stands or falls on the gamic environment. No-one is going to stick with fluff against WAAC for long:(.

Brets also suffer from being a bit one dimensional (don't think they are meself) with all the heavy cav:angel:.

hlaine larkin
14-04-2010, 22:49
you need to know them iscats ^^ miscasts screw lizards over. also the point of gorgers is they come on any edge surely? so actually you were just done over by your unsporting opponent- who brings 2 engines to a friendly match? i wouldnt even take 2 in a tournament,

shredshredxx
14-04-2010, 22:56
i think the most hilarious thing you could possibly do would be to continue bringing whatever army you find fun to use for games with the beastmen player, and with the lizardmen player, bring a different army. namely, literally the exact same one as his. bring a slann+double eotg and allow hilarity to ensue.

hlaine larkin
14-04-2010, 23:01
turn up with a dark elf list and the ring of hotek. that will screw him up :D

i would like to just mention that not all us lizardmen players are that dirty- the worst i will ever take is an engine and a slaan, the rest is just saurus. (which are awesome,but i try ad be nice :D)

outbreak
15-04-2010, 03:31
I'd see how he reacts and responds after this post you've made. I've been on a magic trip lately with my skaven too and i've found some games can get very boring so i've built a second warlord list that includes units my main list doesn't use. I play my main list against someone once and if it dominates i'll swap out to my weaker list which i'll try to change up for fun.

selone
15-04-2010, 06:50
Well I never! :p

Yeah, also apologies to Mal I totally forgot this was a battle report:shifty:

I totally love the Thorek model btw, in fact all the dwarf range look pretty great.

WoC do seem to go down the magic and/or knights route a lot. How does a marauderer horde scheme play out? or am I clutching at straws? Of course DoC go so far the other way it's equally hard to make a balanced list.

What would you suggest to a newcomer thinking of taking up the army? (roughly!)

Although a lot of Brets play with no peasants I always reccomend a unit or two, allowing people to get a feel for how things function and used to the big blocks of footsoldiers and missile troops. Although it may not be the most effective army, I believe learning about certain key game mechanics is important early on. (we can generally contrive to lose a few times to keep moral up). I suppose this method stands or falls on the gamic environment. No-one is going to stick with fluff against WAAC for long:(.

Brets also suffer from being a bit one dimensional (don't think they are meself) with all the heavy cav:angel:.

I've not tried a marauder horde myself though I have tried marauders in my last ten or so games. Originally I tried using them as a big 20-25 block thinking thats what not like about an unit that costs 170 points has a 4+ save in combat and is immune to fear, terror and panic. It might just be because of my opponents but in all ten of those games they got into combat 3 times and survived the game once.
Sadly in the current game a lot of T3 1A S3 troops albeit with a good SCR don't have much of a place in the warhammer world it seems, certainly to me.

I've had much more luck using them in units of 12ish keeping them cheap and having them act as a table quarter grabbers who can fight off light cavalry/skirmishers and dont take fear/panic tests where their low points cost normally sees them do alright for their points.

I am going to try an infantry horde so I'll let you know how that works out though i fear you may need CW's to act as both hammer and anvil.

WOC go mounted as they need to get into combat fast and they go magic as they have no real other way of dealing with skirmishers/fast cav/fliers. The book itself lends itself to it and it's possibly the army book which least fits the fluff.


WOC sample starter lists

Balanced
1 sorceror, 1 unit of medium marauders, 1 unit of chaos warriors, 1 unit of warhounds, 1 knight, 1 spawn
Does magic, infantry, cavalry and compulsory movement

Fast army
1 sorceror, 1 unit of small marauders, 1 unit of warhounds, 1 unit of marauder horsemen with throwing axes, 1 unit of knights
Does magic, shooting, infantry, cavalry and fast cav.

Both are fairly balanced I think.

Bretonnians have a lot of similarity with Warriors of Chaos swopping a missile phase for a magic phase. You can have the same problems (leaving your infantry way behind) but bretonnian peasants are cheap and I'd always use a unit of men at arms and a unit of skirmishing bowmen. How can you not like 5 pt men at arms with standards that give no VP's :D

Woodsman
15-04-2010, 17:49
I really like the first list, perhaps i'll take up WoC. Everytime I log on I find a new army I want to start. Damn those prices...

So how would a recommended orc list look? And for any other armies?

Awilla the Hun
20-04-2010, 16:08
How can I have missed this thread? May the numberless waves of Gnoblars and Marauders engulf their enemies, drowning them under the sheer weight of corpses! Foward!

I don't know much about Gnoblars or Ogres or Lizardmen, but some advice: Get as much leadership boosting kit as possible. You must keep the waves of Gnoblars moving roughly towards the enemy to flank them (or, at least, picking their noses in table quarters) and get those precious rank bonuses. Especially with all those (Terror causing?) giant dinosaurs and nasty zappy spells being lobbed around.

Malorian
20-04-2010, 17:14
Get as much leadership boosting kit as possible.

He made sure to blast my general ASAP, and unless I want to start running large blocks of ogres (which I don't) there is no way I can truely protect him from the large target lizardmen casters.

(Ok, maybe I could hide him behind a giant or two, but that would be pretty silly.)


Remember I'm not saying ogres vs lizardmen is a bad match up, I'm saying my standard ogre list vs the standard slann/EotG list is a bad match up.