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Verminmistress
15-02-2006, 17:00
I have a unit of 25 Stormvermin, which is easily the most expensive core unit in my army. In the two games I've used them in, they have done... absolutely nothing of any value.

So, what I want to know is, are they actually worth taking at all? Or should I ditch them and use the points to buy something more useful, like another unit of clanrats and a bunch of censer bearers (which come to pretty much the same points cost) for example?

Hlokk
15-02-2006, 17:10
How exactly are you using them mate? Maybe you need to examine what your doing with them before you just scrub them completely.

For example, try whacking a chieftain in there and using it in between 2 units of rat ogres. Its enough to make most generals wet themselves.

Sam
15-02-2006, 17:27
I donít play Skaven but have played against them with my orcs a few times. I think they are worth taking, but you should probably take them in larger numbers. Iím guessing since they are in essence one of your heavy hitters, you prolly send them against your opponents heavy hitters. Instead of 25, I would at least do 30, more like 35 to help balance the odds. That will help you win combat the first round so you are able to lap around. From there, continued outnumbering and rank bonus will help you keep winning combat. Like my orcs, you are a horde army so use it to your advantage.

Another tactic is having back up to come along with them. For my orcs I like to support with a chariot or trolls. For you maybe some rat ogres or even some clan rats to help even the odds (and as always, maximize rank and outnumber bonus). This is really helpful when playing against hard targets like chaos knights or empire great swords.


I would also try to apply this to your entire army. I have beaten a number of skaven and orc armies because they have a bunch of 20 man units, which simply fold too quickly. I guess people do this because thatís how many come in a box set and thatís how many fit into the GW pre-maid movement trays. I always thought GW should package regiment boxes more in line with whatís practical for an armyÖ

Verminmistress
15-02-2006, 18:21
The problem is that since my two main opponents are Dwarfs and Wood Elves, they tend to shoot my Stormvermin to pieces before they actually reach the enemy lines. (And I've found it only takes one well-placed hit from a Grudge Thrower to send my Stormies- and my general!- running away like little girls.)

PS: All my other infantry units (2 of Clanrats, and a unit of Plague Monks) are 30-strong- I just didn't have the points for any more Stormvermin.

DarkTerror
15-02-2006, 18:38
It's true as Sam said, you need a large unit of them to do any good, with support (this should be obvious because most skaven units need these). So bump them up to 30 models, but I wouldn't go higher than that.

It's true that 20 model units for Orc and Skaven armies often get demolished, but I'd only go > 25 models in a Skaven army (with a few exceptions). Other units don't need it as much and are more likely to die with an extra basket of points.

If you can't afford to make them larger and worth their salt, don't field them at all. Best of luck.

Verminmistress
15-02-2006, 21:29
If you can't afford to make them larger and worth their salt, don't field them at all. Best of luck.
That's actually pretty good logic. With that in mind, I'll probably replace them with a bigger unit of clanrats and some other stuff in my current (2500 pt) list, and get a few more Stormvermin for bigger games.

Thanks for your suggestions, guys. :)

Mad Makz
15-02-2006, 23:32
My advice if you are worried about shooting - Make sure they have shields and the Umbranner, you'll find most of the opposing shooting will be pretty futile after that.

generulpoleaxe
16-02-2006, 09:18
mongol, ahem, i mean skaven slave shield wall. keep it long and thin. make shure your units behind are nine inches away from the front of it.
when they break odds are your oponent won't have the distance for an overun(thanks to averages) and your charge will have an extra inch to spare.
think skaven, be a mean little git with your troops and pull many dirty tricks that thanquol would be proud of.

Finnblood
16-02-2006, 09:42
Stormvermin: an elf warrior, with heavy armour, halberd, and an option to have magic banners. Costs 7 points. No too crappy, eh?

Screen them well and with a character, they'll be able to beat the living crap out of most infantry and many monsters. Only problem is the 0-1 thingy. I'd like to have 2-3 units of 'em and 2-4 units of clanrats and 2-4 units of slaves. True Horde.

But, they are still worth their points, especially if you are playing in an offensive way (far too many skavenplayers prefer sitting and shooting. Full-scale invasion and charge, say I)

oma
16-02-2006, 10:53
they do tend to get more attention than clanrats when it comes too shooting true, but they are better in cc, 3+armoursave is wourth it, espessially against elves and dwarves which have onely strength 3 (basic) anyway

Hlokk
16-02-2006, 11:23
What about a big skirmishing unit of nightrunners with throwing stars in front of them? Should caouse a couple of casualties, then move aside, let Storm vermin charge in then slam the NR into a flank. how does that sound?

Verminmistress
16-02-2006, 11:45
That sounds like an interesting idea, certainly. I have Night Runners but haven't actually used them yet- that might be an excuse to give them a try...

Verminmistress
16-02-2006, 11:45
EDIT: Arg, bloody double post.

generulpoleaxe
16-02-2006, 12:09
the night runners runners would be best used to harrass an enemies flank.
fustrate him, slow the unit down and seperate it from the army. then you pounce.
otherwise his entire line moves at a slower pace. that is when your jezzails etc can do more damage.

when using skirmishers to screen your lines remember, if they flee from a charge the enemy can redirect into you as your unit behind has just been revieled.
also you cannot see through your own units, and as such, you would not be able to take advantage of enemy moving closely to your lines, with counter charges

as a skaven general you must act like the prey (all weak and feeble) whilst retaining the cunning and deadliness of a wolf.

Greymarch
16-02-2006, 22:48
I've been having some success with my Stormvermin after deciding to give them shields and bumping their numbers to 30. Throw in a Chieftan and the Banner of the Swarm and they've become champs.

Why the swarm? They are much harder to get rid of than your regular clanrat units, so there's more of them left when you get into combat.

I've resited 2 High Elf cavalry charges with them, once running the Elven Lord off the table in the first round!

My Rat Ogres on the other hand? Geh.

Sasquatch
16-02-2006, 22:52
Stormvermin are definatly worth the price. If you're facing shooty armies, Umbranner is a nice investment, but otherwise Warbanner or Banner of the swarm. With a BSB you can get both and waltz into combat with +7 combat resolution (3 ranks, standard, warbanner, +2 outnumber!) with the toughest unit in the skaven list.

As for the unit, I field them at 24+chieftain and buy them shields. 4+ vs missiles, 3+ in close. A little expensive but worth the price.

As for them being "heavy hitters". Only in a skaven army. Their advantage vs. clanrats is in defense. WS4 means fewer hits taken and better armor means fewer wounds. But even stormvermin won't stand up to real heavy hitters. That's why you have to think skaven. Slave shields to absorb missile fire, redirect charges and place the enemy where you want them.

A good example is a few weeks ago. I'm playing a 1K game vs lizardmen and on turn two I bait his saurus unit into charging my slaves. The slaves flee and the saurus unit is perfectly placed when my move comes around. 25 Clanrats in the flank, 24 stormvermin (with chieftain general) in the face. A couple of dead saurus and loads of CR later, I overrun the unit.

generulpoleaxe
17-02-2006, 10:14
you only get the bonus of one banner in the regiment. even if one of them is the army standard.

scatterlaser
17-02-2006, 23:19
you only get the bonus of one banner in the regiment. even if one of them is the army standard.
You only get the +1 combat resolution bonus for having a standard once, even if you have both a normal standard and the BSB in the unit. You can benefit from the effects of multiple magic banners at once, though, if both the unit standard and the BSB are magical.

generulpoleaxe
18-02-2006, 10:22
@scatterlaser, yes, i do understand that. but if you look at his calculation, he is adding the bonus for ranks,standard, army standard and one magical effect.

Rikkjourd
18-02-2006, 11:23
Eh- no:
3 Ranks
1 Standard
1 WARbanner (magic)
2 Outnumber (1 normal + 1 magical)

Sasquatch
18-02-2006, 12:40
Eh- no:
3 Ranks
1 Standard
1 WARbanner (magic)
2 Outnumber (1 normal + 1 magical)

Eh thanks, I was offline for a while. This particular configuration makes it a little difficult to calculate CR.

But if you can afford this unit (generally 1500 pts and up) you're in good shape if you get into combat. And if you can manage a flank charge at the same time, you're golden!


Won't the stormvermin already be at +2 CR from their own standard bearer/warbanner and not need the BSB? Or is the BSB just there for rerolls on tests?

The BSB is there to boost the CR a little bit (extra +1 for outnumber or warbanner) but since skaven are a little weak in the Ld area :rolleyes: the reroll for any unit within 12" can come in handy for rallying troops or passing critical tests.