PDA

View Full Version : Skaven Plague Censor Bearers/ Plage Priest. Cheese or just a good unit?



dnort32
13-04-2010, 22:35
So I have taken a large unit (about 15) PCBs with a PP my last couple of games and my opponent says they are so cheap! I admit they hit hard, but things like cannons, organ guns, hellfire volley guns, bolt throwers, magic, etc can do so much more damage!

The skaven book has some pretty cheesy combos in it but Skaven are still pretty random and things can go badly very quickly. I just dont think Skaven are all that bad when put up against other 7th ed armies(vampires, demons, chaos warriors, beastmen, empire, etc). Any of the new armies put up against old edition armies will be bad.

Is it just me or are skaven really not that bad?!

Dantès
13-04-2010, 22:47
There are some nasty combos, but a unit of 15 PCB isn't one of them. You'll be killing almost three of your PCB's a turn through T tests. Take two units of 7, you'll be better off.

outbreak
13-04-2010, 23:40
I agree with above, 2 units would be much better. PCB shouldn't be taken above 7ish models because you end up with models not in contact taking tests. I'd try 2x6 and a priest in each. in fact they don't even need a priest to hit hard!

Necromancer2
14-04-2010, 00:41
yeah.. I think a lot of people "Forget" to make their own guys take the Toughness test with both PCB's and the unit with the Furnace.

Are they tough.. yes, but they WILL kill themselves as well.

therat
14-04-2010, 04:04
PCBs are not cheese.

Brets can be pretty fierce when played properly. He shouldn't actually have a huge problem with your Skaven.

dnort32
14-04-2010, 07:55
I believe I lost 4 or 5 of my PCBs to toughness checks the entire time. Guess I was just rolling well, but yea taking two units is a better idea. I just dont see the PCBs, who only cost 16 points a piece, controlling the entire game. Maybe if I had 600pts of them or something ridiculous.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 12:18
In my opinion Skaven are definitely more powerful than all of the 7th edition books barring Daemons, Vampires, Dark Elves and Lizardmen.

Playing with 2 units of 7 PCB week in week out I would say they balance on a knife edge between cheese and acceptability. In my opinion it really depends on the terrain. If there are quite a few woods on the board they really do become very very brutal.

Stumpy
14-04-2010, 14:32
Nothing in the game hits harder than cencers for the points cost. That's fine, but when there are multiple units of them, quite a bit of terrain and the enemy doesn't use magic, they quickly become cheesier than a bloodthirster made of stilton.

Dantès
14-04-2010, 15:10
Nothing in the game hits harder than cencers for the points cost. That's fine, but when there are multiple units of them, quite a bit of terrain and the enemy doesn't use magic, they quickly become cheesier than a bloodthirster made of stilton.

Erm...shoot them in the face? Ive lost whole units in one turn of shooting, even at long range, in soft cover, and skirmishing...so -3 to hit (elves)...lost all 6. Not that hard. That's why you need 2 units! If you split their fire, both units will take less damage, and be more effective longer.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 15:51
Erm...shoot them in the face? Ive lost whole units in one turn of shooting, even at long range, in soft cover, and skirmishing...so -3 to hit (elves)...lost all 6. Not that hard. That's why you need 2 units! If you split their fire, both units will take less damage, and be more effective longer.

It bugs me when people give a specific answer to a general question. Just because you lost 6 in one turn to shooting it doesn't mean they are vulnerable to shooting or easily negated by it.

For example lets take a look at one of the best core missile units in the game, 10 Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen, shooting at a unit of PCB in some woods at long range. A perfectly common scenario. Then they would suffer a -4 to hit modifier. On average the casualties would look like this:

20(1/6)(1/2)(1/3) = 20/36

that's not even one dead PCB. Furthermore, if you were to get lucky and say kill 2 you wouldn't be forcing any Ld 5 panic tests since they are frenzied and due to the hitting power of a PCB a unit of 4 is still very nasty.

Dantès
14-04-2010, 16:43
It bugs me when people give a specific answer to a general question. Just because you lost 6 in one turn to shooting it doesn't mean they are vulnerable to shooting or easily negated by it.



It bugs me when people discount specific answers to general questions. They are vulnerable to shooting, and easily negated by it. Don't discount someone else's experiences when they are similar to yours. If you want to kill PCBs, shoot at them. Take that Dark Elf Crossbow unit, and throw a BT next to it. Now you're looking at 2-3 dead. And if you're at long range, they won't be on you next turn, so if they emerge from the woods they're done for.

If you don't understand how shooting is the bane of PCBs, then I can see why you would discount the story, but since you're asking if they're cheese or not, I believe the story is quite relevant.

I don't think I've had a game where PCBs survived more than two rounds of shooting, skirmish helps, and so does the shadow magnet trinket, but volume of fire will always bring them down.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 17:19
They are vulnerable to shooting, and easily negated by it. Don't discount someone else's experiences when they are similar to yours

You must play on battlefields with little or no terrain. Put a couple of woods on the field and they really are not. I'm not discounting your experience, I'm just saying that recounting a specific instance in which they all died is not a good way to establish whether they are vulnerable to shooting or not.


If you don't understand how shooting is the bane of PCBs, then I can see why you would discount the story, but since you're asking if they're cheese or not, I believe the story is quite relevant.

I once killed a Blood Thirster with one cannon shot. Therefore, it's not cheese?!

Esco Thomson
14-04-2010, 18:18
They are moderate toughness skirmishers, with no armor...

Do we even need to state that they are vulnerable to shooting?

It's silly, because of course they are, and equally as such, there are ways to help mitigate that weakness. Terrain, use of skirmishing rules, screening, etc.

They are a good unit, with certain handicaps about them. If you can negate or minimize them during a game, they should have a solid impact, if not, well tough luck.

With the numbers you can field, you really shouldn't be worried about being frenzy baited too badly, even with skirmishing, shooting is bad and stronger magic missiles are worse.

therat
14-04-2010, 21:50
Typically when my PCBs cannot find a forest or a nice screen they become victims of flying pointy wooden sticks. If they can, and my opponent cannot stay clear of them, they do a lot of damage.

They're not a unit that can be thrown at the enemy haphazardly. They must be directed (as best as possible with frenzy) down a careful path to maximize their potential.

Can they do a lot of damage? Oh, yes, yes they can! Can they be easily dealt with if not cared for by the controlling player? Most definitely.

Mullitron
14-04-2010, 23:53
Their a support unit, just like alot of supporting units they can do their job well if used properly (in this case damage dealing) but if unsupported they are weak. They hit hard but have little resistance. Using range attacks allows the oppoents to take them on by themselves (tho of course the skaven opponent will try and negate this as much as posssible) which they are vunerable to. Its a bit like a dwarf organ gun, if used properly and dealt with badly from the opponent they can be amazing, but doesnt make them cheesy. In my opinon its not a cheesy unit, its a strong unit from a strong list but not broken and as already mentioned better used as two seperate units.

fenrisnorth
15-04-2010, 00:38
The unit in question was led by a priest with the talisman that gives all shots at his unit a further -1. In addition the grey seer cast howling warp gale every turn and the army had the storm banner. "Just shoot them" doesn't really work in this situation.

outbreak
15-04-2010, 01:14
Their also a 360 degree frenzied unit. They can be baited away and i agree most of the time mine get shot/magiced down substantially in 1 or 2 volleys and don't have enough models left to win combats. When i've played against them with my other armies i've also found them easy to shoot/magic/bait. They are a very good unit but no way would i call them cheese.

Stumpy
15-04-2010, 02:19
I don't understand how shooting is a reasonable way of taking them out, but ok. 6+ or 7+ to hit just doesn't do it for me. In combat they can well take down a ranked unit to the front. Also with baiting, it doesn't really seem worth it. A unit of censers is around 100 points, how many points is that bait unit and how much for the unit that will take them down? Also, that unit has to be pretty specific. Normal infantry won't do it, small cavalry units will fail and bigger ones don't like the toughness tests, so you're looking at chariots and monsters.
They have a disproportionate impact compared to their points cost.

outbreak
15-04-2010, 02:59
bait with swarms, cheap fast cav, hound units. Why are you saying 6+ or 7+ to hit? Wait until their out of cover and you just have a +1 to hit like any other skirmisher? If your factoring in items or multi shooting your making it so specific i could just reply with take a bolt thrower/tempate weapon/bound spell whatever to deal with them aswell.

fenrisnorth
15-04-2010, 03:25
Well, you also get a -1 for long range almost all of the time, remember they have a 10'' charge and most weapons only have a 12-15'' maximum short range.
Also, skaven have several magic items and a spell to further penalize shooting which my opponent almost always takes. I just got through playing a game and the best shot I ever had against his censor bearers was at a -3.

Stumpy
15-04-2010, 03:48
Long range and skirmish is 6+. Swarms don't make for good bait, they'd cost too much and just die. Fast cav units tend to be between 70 and 100 points so they're a little expensive to bait a 100 point unit. Hounds are good.

outbreak
15-04-2010, 04:33
the point of baiting is to die/flee? Set up a unit close by but put your baiter in his charge range, flee with it then counter charge his PCB on your next turn

Dantès
15-04-2010, 16:22
PCBs are one of those units where baiting isn't really THAT effective. They skirmish, so baiting them into terrain or away from the rest of the battle doesn't affect them as much as a ranked unit. If you charge them, you'll still lose a few models before you attack, and then have to wound T4. They'll still have at least 9 attacks back, at str 5, with hatred, so unless that unit can kill 3 of them then they'll be in trouble.

Even though they are skirmishers, I still maintain shooting is the best option. Magic Missiles are great, but Skaven armies tend to be magic heavy, and will be able to dispell most MM that target the PCBs.

therat
15-04-2010, 18:27
Long range and skirmish is 6+.

Unless you're an elf, or a dwarf with a handgun. These comprise about 1/2 of all standard shooting (standard being bows and longbows and their equivalents). So a sizeable portion of shooting in the game is going to hit them at long range on 5+.

fubukii
15-04-2010, 18:39
I play skaven and i would consider PCB a somewhat over powered unit.

Combined with all the anti shooting items/spells skaven have trying to shoot PCB dead is often not a great idea. In addition that shooting may be in much better use shooting at doomwheels or abominations, or even those annoying 6 man giant rat units that redirect people like crazy.

Xynok
16-04-2010, 00:29
And then you stick them by a plague furnace. And get loads of combat res from the monks and do a lot of damage. And are stubborn.

And then you do this twice in the same battlefield. With the cheesey rare units they will also want to take out with their shooting.

Skaven don't have to be cheesey. But they can be. PCBs on their own aren't that bad, you can find ways to deal with them, but they're often not the only issue out there.