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Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 13:48
I originally wasn't going to bother writing this thread, however, I don't think anyone else has so here goes.

I use to buy all my GW miniatures from official GW stores. I felt the service I received in store such as getting my models sprayed for free and being able to use all their tools, paints and basing equipment outweighed the advantages of buying on line from independent stockists i.e. saving money.

However, since they no longer allow you to borrow paints etc I really don't see the incentive to buy from them. It's not like I go in there and ask for advice on which unit to buy next for my army...

DDogwood
14-04-2010, 13:52
I believe firmly in the principle of "buy where you play". So, if you usually play in a GW store, you should support it by buying there. If you play at a different LGS, support it by buying there. If you play in a garage, basement, or school club, buy wherever it is convenient or cheap, and use the money you saved to buy snacks and deodorant to give to the other players.

eriochrome
14-04-2010, 13:54
Maybe because they have the biggest selection so if you need just the right version of a metal model. Oh wait they cut down on stocking such things.

Maybe you want some Blood Bowl stuff and GW is the only place to go but they also do not stock that in the store.

Just be happy that the lower service level means that you will not be asked questions every second you are there looking at models to get your online discounter shopping list together. Seeing models in the flesh can be helpful to purchasing as you can look to see if they have way to many pieces.

x-esiv-4c
14-04-2010, 13:58
Every time I play at the FLGS I always make a purchase, anything from a pot of paint to a tank kit. These places are shops first, hobby hangouts second.

eriochrome
14-04-2010, 14:05
Every time I play at the FLGS I always make a purchase, anything from a pot of paint to a tank kit. These places are shops first, hobby hangouts second.

Forget this and you will have neither.

BigRob
14-04-2010, 15:14
I originally wasn't going to bother writing this thread, however, I don't think anyone else has so here goes.

I use to buy all my GW miniatures from official GW stores. I felt the service I received in store such as getting my models sprayed for free and being able to use all their tools, paints and basing equipment outweighed the advantages of buying on line from independent stockists i.e. saving money.

However, since they no longer allow you to borrow paints etc I really don't see the incentive to buy from them. It's not like I go in there and ask for advice on which unit to buy next for my army...

Well, if your only going there so you dont have to spend money on what are pretty basic staples of the hobby then, probably best not to. The reason GW stopped things like that (apart from H&S etc) is because there were people who took the p*ss a bit (especially at my old local store) and never brought any paint, spray etc.

Yes its cheaper to buy at Wayland or Warstore or any number of other places but if you don't go to GW then they will stop supporting the stores. We have allready seen this in the "one man store" program being rolled out. I will make a big buy from say, Wayland, but then head to the local GW when I suddenly realise I forgot to add some orc boyz or need a new brush or a new colour for something.

Support your local stores and they are better places :)

Insane Psychopath
14-04-2010, 15:25
The reason GW stopped things like that (apart from H&S etc) is because there were people who took the p*ss a bit (especially at my old local store) and never brought any paint, spray etc.

Also bearing in mind some people can be careless when it is not there own stuff.

Being a ex-part timer. It annoyed me to no end when close up the shop, tide up, etc.... Only to find pile of the store paints pots left open, people not wash there brush out & as such would mix up x-amount of paints.
Also add onto that a lot of people do steal from GW store paints as well.

It ment we had to keep replace them, we loss out on stock/money as it dose add up in the end even though the paints are 2.20, it dose add up in the end.

We never allowed people to use store paints for this reason. As why should GW store have there store paints weasted, when people can bring in there own paints.

I mean if your going swiming, you alway take swiming cloths. If your gaming you take your own army book, models, dice, temp. So if painting why can people not carry there own paints as well, it only take a small box to carry them with some brush.

That just my view & from what I know when I work for GW. I alway make sure to carry my own paints if I am planning to paint models in store. It a bit more respectful IMO, also I know my paints have not been mix as I take care wash my paint brush, etc...

To stop going to a store for not allow you to use there own paints is a bit silly & a bit over the top.

IP

EldarWonderland
14-04-2010, 15:26
One idea that will probably get shot down in flames.

Why don't GW stores give a 5-10% discount to bona-fide members of a local Gaming Club.
Clearly I am a member of one of the local clubs and am known at the local GW store. I would be happy to get a smaller discount in store than send off for items (albeit at a greater discount) online.

A 20% online difference is just too much to be ignored these days and so I don't buy as much from GW store as I would if this small enticement were to be offered.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 15:35
It seems to me that people in this thread are saying that the main reason for buying at GW is to "support" them. Whilst this is certainly admirable, I don't really have the money to indulge in such an ideal. Until I have more disposable income I need something tangible to encourage me to buy from there. I might also add that I would feel a stronger sense of loyalty to the company if I felt such loyalty was reciprocated.

eriochrome
14-04-2010, 15:41
People say support your Friendly Local Gaming Store if it is both friendly with good people and places to play. Just buying your GW models pretty much anywhere supports GW.

blongbling
14-04-2010, 15:50
However, since they no longer allow you to borrow paints etc I really don't see the incentive to buy from them.

So, since you can no longer "borrow" their paints, or should I say "use the store paints for free and not use your own" you no longer see the need to patronise the store.

Isn't your logic a bit at fault here?

Pacorko
14-04-2010, 16:02
It seems to me that people in this thread are saying that the main reason for buying at GW is to "support" them. Whilst this is certainly admirable, I don't really have the money to indulge in such an ideal. Until I have more disposable income I need something tangible to encourage me to buy from there. I might also add that I would feel a stronger sense of loyalty to the company if I felt such loyalty was reciprocated.

Well, it shows you can't afford it... for by your own admission you were along only for the "freebies", now you don't have them...

Please don't ask silly questions. Who ever said a hobby was a "inexpensive affair"?

Look, you've made your mind and have a set budget. Face reality and go buy where you can get the most bang out of your limited buck. Go to the deep discounters and buy Folk Art or other crafts paints--they are really good and inexpensive. It's all right, many here do it, but stop the "outraged at GW" pose for, no matter how you try to spin it, you just end up sounding like a cheapskate.

The company owes you nothing. You pay for the goods they offer and those you consider worthy of getting.

If they had nice community incentives, but those are no longer there, they were extras... no one was entitled to have them, no one deserves them; and obviously these were not cost effective or fully appreciated by the people who used them.

Welcome to the harsh reality of 21st century GW: make a business grow for a shrinking niche in a recessive economy.

duffybear1988
14-04-2010, 16:20
One idea that will probably get shot down in flames.

Why don't GW stores give a 5-10% discount to bona-fide members of a local Gaming Club.
Clearly I am a member of one of the local clubs and am known at the local GW store. I would be happy to get a smaller discount in store than send off for items (albeit at a greater discount) online.

A 20% online difference is just too much to be ignored these days and so I don't buy as much from GW store as I would if this small enticement were to be offered.


Well we as a club managed to negotiate with the local independent store for a 10% discount to all regular club going members who paid in cash (no cards) so it does happen and has been a great help on occasions, especially as he still has many of the older boxes of GW stuff such as splash releases etc that he sells off for reasonable prices (I picked up the old 3 pack of plastic eldar warwalkers for 20 a couple of months ago).

In fact I prefer independents to GW stores as the people are more friendly and dont pester you constantly. Last time I went to warhammer world with my club we found that the best way to get rid of the store staff was to ask them why White Dwarf was such a poor magazine these days :D suffice to say that they didnt come back after that...

eriochrome
14-04-2010, 16:30
You could do something crazy like organize your club into a trade account if you were big enough and did enough volume. Ger serious discount that way but definately significant work and properly need some type of commerical address which was open atleast weekly to recieve deliveries.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 17:06
Well, it shows you can't afford it... for by your own admission you were along only for the "freebies", now you don't have them...

Please don't ask silly questions. Who ever said a hobby was a "inexpensive affair"?

Look, you've made your mind and have a set budget. Face reality and go buy where you can get the most bang out of your limited buck. Go to the deep discounters and buy Folk Art or other crafts paints--they are really good and inexpensive. It's all right, many here do it, but stop the "outraged at GW" pose for, no matter how you try to spin it, you just end up sounding like a cheapskate.

The company owes you nothing. You pay for the goods they offer and those you consider worthy of getting.

If they had nice community incentives, but those are no longer there, they were extras... no one was entitled to have them, no one deserves them; and obviously these were not cost effective or fully appreciated by the people who used them.

Welcome to the harsh reality of 21st century GW: make a business grow for a shrinking niche in a recessive economy.

I have to say I find this reply aggressive and presumptuous. Answering it chronologically,

Yes I was there in part for the "freebies". I don't think there is any great shame in that, especially since I was buying the models in store and thus "supporting" them.

I think my question was completely legitimate. In my mind there still doesn't seems to be a tangible incentive to buy from the store as opposed to on line.

"Who ever said the hobby was an inexpensive affair?" Not me for one.

I'm not, and hope I didn't, come across outraged in this thread. Thanks for your advice on cheap paints, though I will continue to buy GW paints with the money saved from buying my models on line. If buying the same product for a better price constitutes as being a "cheapskate" then I guess I am one though I don't think it is a particularly undesirable adjective when used like this!

I am aware the company doesn't owe me anything. I don't think I said words to the contrary did I?

I guess what I was really getting at with this question was that GW might lose trade as a result of this change. Speaking to gamers I know others are making the switch from GW to on line stores. Now this might not decrease GW's net profit since they aren't handing out "freebies" any more however, I think they will certainly lose trade on miniatures as a result of this change. Obviously it is up to them to make tough decisions like this but personally in the long run I don't think it will be beneficial for the company.

Glabro
14-04-2010, 17:17
Hmm. As a gaming club you'd qualify for the "Have tables and run introductory tables" clause of GW's trade discount policy, so the discounts might be good even if you don't have a "window to the street".

Anyway, if your gaming depends on a certain store, then sure, buy there, you don't have to buy everything there, but at least a part. Alternatively they could just charge you for the games if you don't make a purchase...but I digress. A store can't depend on the "loyalty" or "kindness" of its customers for its business model, or it won't do well in the capitalistic world of business.

But anyhow, don't feel the need to support a store you don't need. I for one believe the GW world would be a better place (for me) without any stores., simply because I think it would allow GW to concentrate on putting out quality product and not being burdened by the needs of a store chain, and maybe they could shift their focus back to being more hobbyist-friendly. Oh, and all the gamers who depended on stores would seek out or form gaming clubs on their own....I can keep dreaming can't I?

Brother Loki
14-04-2010, 17:23
I think they're exceptionally unlikely to do away with stores completely. They were a retailer long before they made their own models.

Pacorko
14-04-2010, 18:20
I have to say I find this reply aggressive and presumptuous.

Why? Because it spelled it clearly about your attitude, by your own admission? There was no intention to aggravate you, so agressive?

You were there for the incentives, you wrote so yourself. That was the main reason for your buying there. I may have been blunt but never agressive.

Now, presumptuous?

Why, pray tell? I have always championed the people's right to choose where and what to buy, so they make it more cost effective for themselves.

I, like you, find little reason to buy from GW directly other than to make an effort to help some poor lads keep their jobs, besides from the fact that it's only ocassionally that I am able to be in an actual GW store (be it in Spain, U.K., Canada or U.S of A.)... but I still think about the staff's jobs whenever I do go in.

Everyone shops somewhere because it suits their needs and, a lastly, you read like you assume crafts paints are somehow of less quality than GW's... that'd be wrong in so many ways, I will not go in there because it would derail the thread.

To answer your rather rethorical question: Why?

For the community that revolves around it, which gives you people to chat and play with, and the staff's jobs if you feel they ever did a good thing for you and provided you with a nice place to hang around... be it with freebie painting or without it.

But with your wallet, you are king. Do with it as you see fit.

JLBeady
14-04-2010, 19:43
GW has long operated their stores with the intent to make them a destination. By doing so they hoped to foster and encourage a hobby community that would buy their product in ever increasing amounts while at the same time allow the company to also protect and expand market share by denying competitors retail space.

Part of their strategy was to offer value added services such as gaming and hobby space and access to complimentary hobby supplies (paints, brushes, etc.) and other value added services (hobby advice and support, special events)

It appears that in the last couple of years GW's plan for generating positive business results has changed. That the value added services mentioned above are being cut or scaled back, and that GW apparently expects the reduction of expenses to more than make up for any lost sales or loss of market share to its competitors.

That said, it is perfectly reasonable for any individual to base a buying decision on the level of value added services a company chooses to provide. To deny this as not legitimate is to deny the rights and expectations of a consumer in a free market economy.

Speaking from my experience, I know that recent changes in staffing and operating hours at my local GW are a direct reason that I no longer visit the store during the week since the new hours effectively killed the wfb and 40k leagues that meet at the stores Wednesday and Thursday evenings. Also, since I didn't play at the store very much on weekends unless I had made prior arrangements with someone and we were there at 12 to grab a table, my patronage of the store and GW in general has declined sharply. Less visits, less impulse buy, also less visits mean more time to play and spend money on other games or explore other games.

I think a lot of people want an excuse to continue buying from GW at their inflated prices (I say inflated because many retailers are able to sell at a significant discount and make money). Not to mention people do tend to get upset when a service they have come to expect and is integral to their buying experience is eliminated or dramatically scaled back, and want to 1) vent their disappointment 2) seek affirmation by sharing their experience and 3) see if anyone can offer anything that might mitigate or offset their disappointment.

GW seems to have been very successful as of late for giving me and apparently others plenty of excuses to not buy from GW and the flames of the fanboys (real or imagined) or exasperate this. Fanboys for their part seem to take offense when such experiences are shared because they either believe the criticism of GW is inherently a criticism of their choice and level of dedication to the hobby (self and public affirmation of their geekdom) or the fear that such criticism, if allowed to go on without rebuttal, will have on the hobby at large (losing hearts and minds and).


….and if you have gotten to the end of this long diatribe you deserve some milk and cookies or whatever comfort food will make you feel better…..seriously

Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 19:48
@Pacorko:

I have learnt from experience that these kind of discussions escalate rapidly on Warseer into full blown arguments regarding, most of the time, utter trivialities. It is with this in mind that I will not reply to your most recent post, no matter how tempting it may be.

@JLBeady:

That was like reading the thoughts of a more literate me lol

kaimarion
14-04-2010, 20:00
The only reason I sometimes buy stuff from a GW store is to support my local stores, both my locals Ayr and Glasgow are great stores so I go directly to them for any GW related books I buy and sometimes models.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
14-04-2010, 20:04
I've actually never been in a GW store... There's only two in my country...

spetswalshe
14-04-2010, 20:06
I often wonder if I might actually set foot in a GW store if some miracle happened and I no longer saw the company as a shower of jerks holding my enjoyment to ransom. However, I then remember the increasingly-pushy sales ideology, the straw puppet magazine/catalog, the decision to stop selling bitz (and then put out a rather insulting 'bitz catalog' of the parts they deemed suitable)...

Basically they would have to call me up out of the blue to apologise for the last ten years or so. If I played there, I'd pay there (though perhaps 'be gouged there' is more appropriate), but I don't.

S_A_T_S
14-04-2010, 20:54
I see the points about impulse buys. I haven't played at my local store for months due to the new manager banning Blood Bowl, and rearranging the evening events so I have no idea what day to go to play what game. The only things I ever buy there now are cans of spray and the occasional pot of paint, and that's only cos if I'm in the mood to paint, I have to paint, I can't wait a week for stuff to arrive from Maelstrom. For anything else, I don't play or have the time to build it to need stuff NOW, so it's ALWAYS better to order online.

Thing is it's a shame really. The guys in the store (even the manager to some extent) are all pretty cool relaxed guys willing to help me out with any questions I have, and they're never pushy. I do enjoy going in there sometimes, to play or discuss new stuff, but I have so few reasons to go there now...

grissom2006
14-04-2010, 21:00
It seems to me that people in this thread are saying that the main reason for buying at GW is to "support" them. Whilst this is certainly admirable, I don't really have the money to indulge in such an ideal. Until I have more disposable income I need something tangible to encourage me to buy from there. I might also add that I would feel a stronger sense of loyalty to the company if I felt such loyalty was reciprocated.

This my good person made me laugh if you don't have the money to support you hobby then don't expect GW to freely support it out of their own back pockets. You have any idea on how much it costs GW to write off stock that could of otherwise sold over getting used in the store by someone who couldn't spend the money in them.

If your that concerned about the cost find another hobby or get your supplies from else where. Countless cheaper sources for anything from minitures to paints. But don't expect a store to support your habbit just because your hard up at the moment and have no free cash to spend.

Malorian
14-04-2010, 21:01
I buy where I play and from those that put on tournaments.

The day GW stops running tournaments is the day I stop buying from them.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
14-04-2010, 21:24
This my good person made me laugh if you don't have the money to support you hobby then don't expect GW to freely support it out of their own back pockets. You have any idea on how much it costs GW to write off stock that could of otherwise sold over getting used in the store by someone who couldn't spend the money in them.

If your that concerned about the cost find another hobby or get your supplies from else where. Countless cheaper sources for anything from minitures to paints. But don't expect a store to support your habbit just because your hard up at the moment and have no free cash to spend.

I really do get tired of being misinterpreted on Warseer. To clarify I don't expect GW to freely support my hobby, I am just saying I see no incentive to buy from the official stores anymore when you can get it cheaper online and was wondering whether other people do? This doesn't mean I'm some kind of pauper, I just haven't got the kind of disposable income to pay 20 extra in order to "support" a store.

spetswalshe
14-04-2010, 22:22
This my good person made me laugh if you don't have the money to support you hobby then don't expect GW to freely support it out of their own back pockets. You have any idea on how much it costs GW to write off stock that could of otherwise sold over getting used in the store by someone who couldn't spend the money in them.

One might think that after shelling out 25 for ten models you might be entitled to a free coat of paint. Given they have around a 400% markup on their products* and all.

(* Final Half Year report - six months leading up to 29 November 2009 - I'm using the sales revenue/cost of sales forumla; given the costs of sculpting and mould-making, I would imagine the markup for paints is much, much higher.)

Glabro
14-04-2010, 22:30
......


I didn't know psychologists played wargames.

Your logic is flawless, and makes me think that it's exactly how I think things are but can't put to words.

The Force is strong with this one.

GomezAddams
14-04-2010, 22:49
I think part of the original posters thinking was that if he uses the store paints he doesnt have to buy his own - now he does, he might as well buy online and use the online discount to fund his paints.

Seems fairly reasonable to me. I know people who still paint in there local store and I think it varies depending on where you go/managers attitude etc. It can be a good selling point to parents to see a bunch of kids building and socialising.

Hellebore
15-04-2010, 01:38
GW is supported as a company by ANY purchase of their products. Buying their products from a GW store is simply giving them MORE money than they would get anywhere else.

I don't see any logic in saying that you should buy from a GW store to support them. When ever I purchase a GW product anywhere the above happens.

Unless someone is going to assert that GW NEEDS the extra dosh they ask for in their own stores, in which case they aren't being run very well and I'm not chucking hundreds of extra dollars down a hole that won't fill.

I would purchase models at an FLGS because I support THEM whilst supporting GW.

Hellebore

Santiaghoul
15-04-2010, 03:09
Actually, GW makes more profit on a sale that takes place from LGS or websites than when you purchase from a GW store. There is a lot of overhead that factors into selling in the GW store that does not occur in the LGS. At least, when I worked for GW, that is what I was taught in training in Baltimore.

Hellebore
15-04-2010, 03:32
Well I would assume those overheads are factored into the total running costs of the company.

Per item they still get X amount of dollars, which is more than they get from those sold at FLGS. The thing is if running the stores costs a certain amount and they only get the income they do from running those stores they might be more financially successful closing them and selling through FLGS's.

Hellebore

Pacorko
15-04-2010, 03:47
Thank you, Santi. That's my point exactly--and I'm not a fanboi:

Of late, people here have been whining about GW closing stores, cutting store hours, turning them into one-man shops....

Why do you think that is happening, Hellebore?

Because the stores aren't justifying their reason to exist. Simple as that. They generate more costs than they can pay for.

My first response isn't aimed at people like you or me... but only at the OP who thinks that no more free paint is reason enough to forget about the store he used to visit. I am not talking about how GW will be hindred by loosing his trade (which as a corporate entity won't, by the OP's own admission), but about a store that can't make any more compromises in order to keep going.

That's what makes me wonder why some people cry to the skies when the stores are closing and how GW is not supportive or reciprocal--which is a childish ideal and unrealistic demand for a company that big, truth be told--, and also seem all too happy about dumping them because they can't get away with a freebie or any other value added that's "been taken from them".

I know this is a hobby, but at times I really find it hard to believe just how naive some people can be about managing a business and how headstrong and/or outright unreasonable they can be about getting what they want or, worse yet, they think they deserve.

But as Tower-of-the-Stars put it, I have no intention to derail this thread and my views about his ideas have been expressed.

Let's just say we disagree completetly for equally good reasons.

Hellebore
15-04-2010, 03:54
Where is the downside for the player if they shop at an FLGS over a GW?

I am against online purchases because they undermine brick and mortar and as the game requires hands on experience people may give up because the online shops don't provide that training.

But a GW store is just an overpriced FLGS. You can't play specialist games there, you can't do many things. An FLGS charges less than a GW, has a 'player friendly' attitude rather than a money friendly one and STILL supports GAMES WORKSHOP.

Normally factory outlets sell their products CHEAPER than the resellers because they cut out the middle man. GW does the opposite, they are to all intents and purposes a factory outlet and they charge a PREMIUM for getting it from them.

GW provides no meaningful services you can't get from an FLGS.

Hellebore

Pacorko
15-04-2010, 04:24
Again... you speak of your case, not the OP's.

I agree with you, though.

Brother Loki
15-04-2010, 09:25
GW provides no meaningful services you can't get from an FLGS.


Unless of course you don't have a FLGS. Most places don't, at least in the UK. Especially one with tables to play on.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
15-04-2010, 10:55
My first response isn't aimed at people like you or me... but only at the OP who thinks that no more free paint is reason enough to forget about the store he used to visit...

That's what makes me wonder why some people cry to the skies when the stores are closing and how GW is not supportive or reciprocal--which is a childish ideal and unrealistic demand for a company that big, truth be told--, and also seem all too happy about dumping them because they can't get away with a freebie or any other value added that's "been taken from them".

I really am getting tired of having my words taken out of context in this thread. I never said that I wouldn't visit the store anymore just because I'm not getting free paint. Indeed, I pop in occasionally for a chat or I might even bring some models in to paint (with my own paints!!!).

As for being all too happy for dumping a store, I refute this completely. This isn't a decision that has been made happily at all however, I have been slowly forced to look for cheaper places to buy my models due to GW's increasing prices and there decreasing value added services.

I really couldn't put it better than this


I think a lot of people want an excuse to continue buying from GW at their inflated prices (I say inflated because many retailers are able to sell at a significant discount and make money). Not to mention people do tend to get upset when a service they have come to expect and is integral to their buying experience is eliminated or dramatically scaled back, and want to 1) vent their disappointment 2) seek affirmation by sharing their experience and 3) see if anyone can offer anything that might mitigate or offset their disappointment.

GW seems to have been very successful as of late for giving me and apparently others plenty of excuses to not buy from GW and the flames of the fanboys (real or imagined) or exasperate this. Fanboys for their part seem to take offense when such experiences are shared because they either believe the criticism of GW is inherently a criticism of their choice and level of dedication to the hobby (self and public affirmation of their geekdom) or the fear that such criticism, if allowed to go on without rebuttal, will have on the hobby at large (losing hearts and minds and).

So far in this thread I have achieved 1) and 2). To the people having a go at me for asking a perfectly legitimate question, why don't you answer it instead? It sure would be nice to achieve 3) as well.

ashc
15-04-2010, 11:53
GW provides no meaningful services you can't get from an FLGS.


Unless of course you don't have a FLGS. Most places don't, at least in the UK. Especially one with tables to play on.

I agree with what has been said here. I don't play in stores, neither GW nor FLGS as I do not have a good one nearby. If I did and it was a good one I would certainly play/spend there. I have a gaming club I attend on occasion, but at the moment it is for RPGs. I think if I decided to reinvest in to the wargaming hobby I would look at doing it from home or with a small group of friends, and make my purchases online and not from a GW store.

What Hellebore says about GW in-store 'services' is true. Their stores are there nowadays as a flagship 'look its the GW Hobby store!' for enticing new players in, and not much else.

Brother Loki
15-04-2010, 11:58
@Tower - Do you play in the store? If you make use of their gaming facilities, then buy your stuff there. If you don't, then buy stuff where you do play if possible. If not, then you may as well buy onnline if it will save you money.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
15-04-2010, 12:25
@Tower - Do you play in the store? If you make use of their gaming facilities, then buy your stuff there. If you don't, then buy stuff where you do play if possible. If not, then you may as well buy onnline if it will save you money.

I haven't played in a store since the discussed change. That isn't because some stand I am making though, I just haven't had time to play.

The advice you have given makes sense and I'm sure many people would agree with the idea "pay where you play" however, being contentious what is so wrong with buying your models online and playing with them in store? Now before you slate me Pacorko and derive implications from my words that really aren't there, I am not saying I advocate this, I am just asking the question.

I know GW don't owe me anything but on the flip side what do I owe them?!

DeeKay
15-04-2010, 12:36
I know GW don't owe me anything but on the flip side what do I owe them?!

Truth is, you don't.

Seriously and sadly, me and a few mates are going through the same sort of thing, but for different reasons. A friend of mine has issues with the cessation of Grand Tournaments, I have problems with codex creep and the (percieved) general poor quality of the fluff and rules for WFB and 40k. We are lucky enough to have an independant gaming store and a GW in our city so we get to choose where we pay and what we play.

Maybe you should take a break from GW stuff for a while, maybe to find an alternative. If you find you still feel the same way then maybe GW stuff isn't for you. Remember that although GW are still a powerful presence in the toy soldier business, they are far from the only thing on offer.

With regards,
Dan.

ashc
15-04-2010, 12:58
I haven't played in a store since the discussed change. That isn't because some stand I am making though, I just haven't had time to play.

The advice you have given makes sense and I'm sure many people would agree with the idea "pay where you play" however, being contentious what is so wrong with buying your models online and playing with them in store? Now before you slate me Pacorko and derive implications from my words that really aren't there, I am not saying I advocate this, I am just asking the question.

I know GW don't owe me anything but on the flip side what do I owe them?!

Because stores are *always* there to make money, not to be used as geek dens.

Stores that think they are inevitably geek dens go down the pan quickly.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
15-04-2010, 13:31
Because stores are *always* there to make money, not to be used as geek dens.

Stores that think they are inevitably geek dens go down the pan quickly.

So you are saying I should buy from my local store i.e. support them, as otherwise they may well close down? Again why do I owe this to GW?

Anyway, I think I am staring to sound like a broken record now so I will refrain from further discussion. I started this thread wanting to know why I would ever buy from GW and to be honest there doesn't seem to be any decent reasons.

As JLBeady said I am looking for excuses to buy at GW but sadly there doesn't seem to be any.

Thanks for your advice DeeKay, I think I will look into Privateer Press.

ashc
15-04-2010, 13:39
If you don't play in the store, and feel no reason to support the store with your business, then don't shop/play there. Vote with your wallet and your feet and go nowhere near it.

I do not at all understand your stance that you somehow 'owe' GW to play and pay in their store :confused:

x-esiv-4c
15-04-2010, 13:46
Yeah, i'm a little confused on that issue as well.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
15-04-2010, 14:30
Sorry for the ambiguity. The question was entirely rhetorical. To clarify, I don't feel I owe GW anything.

Naeni
15-04-2010, 14:46
I haven't set foot in a GW this time around with the hobby for many reasons (the main one being THEY'RE FULL OF CREEPS!) But it means that even though its closer than the local gaming shop... I'll still make the extra journey to support someone whos genuinely trying to do a good thing, rather than "MONEY MONEY MONEY!!" But then I do that generally with any type of shop.... to try and stop the inevitable chain store doom world.

isaac
15-04-2010, 14:57
This is a classic case of cutting little things that make big problems.

It is a low cost service from GW that makes their stores a "Destination" place and inspires brand loyalty. If GW wishes to cut them and possibly anger customers, then that is their choice.

Stuff like this, leads me to believe that they don't really care about keeping loyal customers at this point, which is a shame.

Lord Malorne
15-04-2010, 15:07
I play at a club, we have a LGS that gives us a discount but we still buy around, its our hobby afterall.

Kronos
15-04-2010, 16:25
very well said lord Malorne, OUR hobby.


i buy from anygiven place when i can, i usually buy more from forgeworld than gw, mainly becausei like resin miniatures.

theres only an independant stockist round my area, opened recently, have very very very few items but sell all the paints tools etc and even have a small gaming table, which is great considering the tiny size of teh store, but i never play warhammer or any other games, i just like the modeling and army building part of the hobby, and the fluff of course as we all do.


i buy from gw/fw, which only ever is online and the odd tools, for paints i buy art store acrylics, and as for what to buy next well thats always up to me, and the odd advice given here on warseer.

logan054
15-04-2010, 16:45
I think the only reason to buy in GW is if its a small model they have in stock, like you have the urge to paint something

blongbling
15-04-2010, 16:51
I really do get tired of being misinterpreted on Warseer. To clarify I don't expect GW to freely support my hobby, I am just saying I see no incentive to buy from the official stores anymore when you can get it cheaper online and was wondering whether other people do? This doesn't mean I'm some kind of pauper, I just haven't got the kind of disposable income to pay 20 extra in order to "support" a store.

it doesn't bother GW they make their money no matter where you buy it from, actually they make more profit if you buy from an internet trader! Obviously this is only true until the retail chain clears its fixed overheads then it becomes massively profitable

yabbadabba
15-04-2010, 17:38
Wow - 54 pages on a non issue - Welcome to the internet world pt 1.

You buy something at a store for the same reason as you would buy a particular product at a particular store at a particular time - because you want it now, its in front of you, and the price is one you are willing to pay. If the answer to anyone one of these is no, then you do not need to buy in that shop at that time - do you?

Lets forget all this about brand loyalty and premium services offered by any store - its all just a way of tying you into buying from that place - does it actually benefit you and give you something you can't do for you self? Highly unlikely.

The real issue is not whether you feel obliged to buy from this store or the next, but traditional shopping on a high street vs online shopping. Because of its nature, there are very. very few products that you can only buy on a high street and not online (products, not brands). High street shoppinng is now for traditionalists, convenience and those in a real hurry. Shopping in a shop has gone from a necessity to a luxurious alternative. So lets not kid ourselves here, any purchase in a store is because you choose to, not because you have to. Welcome to the internet world pt2.

isaac
15-04-2010, 18:29
If you buy retail, you expect a certain service for the higher price. Helpful and friendly staff, the products on display and other benefits. You buy online you expect only a cheaper price.

It is up to GW to take away any normal incentive to buy retail over online, but that is up to them. I still personally think this is bad idea though.

yabbadabba
15-04-2010, 18:33
If you buy retail, you expect a certain service for the higher price. Helpful and friendly staff, the products on display . All available at your local GW or FLGS.


and other benefits. like?

Llew
15-04-2010, 18:43
GW does not seem to be gifted in the art of retail selling. See, part of what makes a store work is differentiation: some aspect of what they offer that sets them apart from competitors. It might be more game space, lower prices, outstanding service, whatever. But every store should try to give you some reason to buy from them than another place. Apparently, in the past they recognized that to demand a premium price for their products, they needed to offer other amenities that made it worthwhile to pay the extra.

Now, they are looking at the cost of those extras and have made the decision that those costs are unjustified. They are changing their retail model to not quite a "no frills" set up, but certainly less frills. In the end, they seem to be aiming at offering the same or less service than you get at the FLGS, and will still be charging full retail.

It remains to be seen whether or no people will pay more just to buy in the GW store, but smart money says they'll only go there when they have no other option, or if they have developed a strong, irrational attachment to their GW. (Hey...no worries...I have a strong, irrational attachment to my FLGS. But I recognize that it's irrational.) We'll see how this works out for GW.

Shamutanti
15-04-2010, 19:11
I've always disliked the fact people used a store's paints, glues, etc. - and I've seen hobbyists in LGS abuse the facilities just as much as I've seen kids do it in GWs.

My view is you should bring your own stuff to use. The 'small things' add up when you have to replace a split pot of paint, a pot of ruined plastic glue, a broken tape measure and a bunch of missing dice every day.

isaac
15-04-2010, 19:36
I do have to say that people who think they are "entitled" to GW supplying incentives are being silly, but thinking you are still forced to buy at a GW store is even sillier. :P

@Yabbadabba

Basically, anything extra. From free spraying/paint bar at GW to samples at a grocery store to game tables, free extended warranty, etc.

Basically, anything that makes a retail outlet better than buying online. The first two are available at GW and FLGS (well, helpful and friendly does not apply across the board, but it is part of what makes a store good), but it is the latter which makes going there worthwhile.

@Llew

Exactly, changing the model for lower costs running has its advantages, but cutting those bonus services has its disadvantages, I guess we shall see how this affects GW retail.

ashc
15-04-2010, 19:39
The stores don't want freeloaders hanging about, heck, it seems they don't want people in there playing games either. Looks to me like they are stripping right back to being a one-stop shop for attracting NEW players, getting them in and sending them off again, and nothing more.

Llew
15-04-2010, 19:42
*IF* the store provides these materials as part of its package to make it an attractive place to shop, customers are welcome to use them under whatever rules the store sets when it provides them. This is true for FLGS or GW stores. A store owner or manager with a modicum of intelligence tries to factor the cost of such giveaways into his overhead and, in reality, passes that cost on to the customer.

(The customer never actually gets anything for free, unless they use items or facilities and never shop there. Similarly, the cost of such items is always borne in a manner that has nothing to do with how much use the customer makes of these items. Some people use more than others, some spend less than others. It is an inherently unbalanced system.)

If one of the factors that a customer weighs when shopping at a store changes, then the customer is fully entitled to throw that information in when they decide where to shop. If any part of the equation changes, the customer re-evaluates. This happens for every place anyone shops.

In this instance, the OP noted that one of the convenience factors that he valued in his decision to buy at the GW shop was the paints and glue. GW is changing this, but they are not increasing other services or offerings to make it an attractive place to shop still. They changed their offer and he has re-evaluated his decision to buy there, and found that they no longer offer what he considers a reasonable value for his money. Ergo, GW retail will earn less of his custom.

yabbadabba
15-04-2010, 20:04
Basically, anything extra. From free spraying/paint bar at GW to samples at a grocery store to game tables, free extended warranty, etc.
Basically, anything that makes a retail outlet better than buying online. The first two are available at GW and FLGS (well, helpful and friendly does not apply across the board, but it is part of what makes a store good), but it is the latter which makes going there worthwhile.
Having worked in the retail industry a long time, what I will say is that on the whole, supply of samples generally comes from the supplier, not the seller. This often forms part of their marketing and PR budgets. For the seller to supply those samples is not profitable and often a sign of poor sales, or a missed opportunity with the supplier. In this GW and its stores are at a disadvantage.

GW started things like gaming tables and painting lessons as a sales gimmick sure, but via trying to and get more people into the hobby, rather than sell more to the same people (no "ironic" comments please). The sales businesses have created a hobby welfare state, and conversations like this are a result of that. The games, the social side. the painting - none of it was designed for happening in the stores but outside in clubs and homes.

In the end GW can only do what they can afford to do, and that is something that will trump any cries of foul from anywhere. Whatever the consequences of that is is something they, their shareholders and us as hobbyists will just have to live with. If it really is that important, then buy online. Allow Darwinism to make its mark.

isaac
15-04-2010, 20:09
What about places like costco for samples? GW is the supplier for its own stores, I suppose they could simply supply their own stores....

Natural selection swings both ways as well

yabbadabba
15-04-2010, 20:14
What about places like costco for samples? don't know who they are.


GW is the supplier for its own stores, I suppose they could simply supply their own stores.... But GW still end up footing the cost, unlike an independent seller like a supermarket who can pass that cost back to the supplier.


Natural selection swings both ways as well Thats kind of my point in that particular case.

isaac
15-04-2010, 20:57
Costco is: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco)

But unlike an indie, GW can "sell" it to themselves at a much lower cost.

If you cut back too much, you hurt business though.

yabbadabba
15-04-2010, 21:47
Costco is: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costco). It says there that an external company deals with samples. Therefore thats not applicable in this case.


But unlike an indie, GW can "sell" it to themselves at a much lower cost. No, thats not the point. Lets ignore GW because as far as I am aware they don't give out free samples. If you have a manufacturer/supplier/retailer business, they will have to foot the cost of any samples they produce - including those they might give to their stockists for free. It still costs approxiamately the same whether they "give" the samples to their stockists and/or their own stores. As a stockist the trick is to try and get the supplier to provide you with the samples for no cost to yourself.


If you cut back too much, you hurt business though. No one said these decisions are easy. They are certainly considered in some detail.

Cresistauead
15-04-2010, 23:19
Lets ignore GW because as far as I am aware they don't give out free samples.

What about those one dwarf, one gobbo, two slottabases - sprues? GW casts loads of them. Aren't all of them given away for free?

Similar with the tree one pose marines - sprues. You can buy them for 5 RRP if you really want, but a big chunk of those manufactured end up given away to the stockists. Or do they actually order them separately these days in those bulk boxes of 50 bare sprues and pay money for them, I'm not sure.

Sure its not anything super useful unless you are just getting in to the hobby. But at least this is how it goes in my corner of the GW imperium. UK and US might be different. It's not pretty, but I know people with whole units of just those figures.

RevEv
15-04-2010, 23:22
Expecting GW to provide paints etc for your personal use in store is unreasonable and naive. They are, after all, a company trying to make a profit in a very trying environment and providing paints for customer use is going to cut in to the profitability of the store. There have been many analogies used on this thread to try to explain it, but it still seems that there are some here who don't seem to get the point.

GW STORES ARE THERE TO MAKE MONEY. PERIOD.
(Sorry to shout, but there are some seriously unreasonable expectations floating around at the moment).

OK, so in a fit of pique you'll go off and use a FLGS instead. In time that FLGS will also stop you using its paints, glues, undercoats, etc to paint your models because, as other posters have said, it is not a hobby centre or a social club. It is a store there to make money, just like the GW store.

So, what do you do then?

Go back to the GW store you've been sponging off for goodness knows how long? In all probabilities it will no longer be there because the poor guy trying to run it single handed has found his generosity to customers to allow them to use store paints has got him in to deep trouble with Head Office as he isn't making enough profit and so he has been sacked and the store is now a take away (try getting a free sample off them!).

Get real and grow up!

The painting table at my local GW is always busy with regulars working on their own projects. They don't use store stock, they bring their own. If a space is needed for a beginners lesson they move aside. They are welcomed because they show to new customers what can be achieved and they are very willing to talk to them as well. This is what makes the GW hobby special. It is a sociable game that encourages interaction, skill development, comprehension of rules, understanding of complex strategy and promotes fair play. That is why I love it and why I get upset at whingers who expect something for nothing.

Yodhrin
16-04-2010, 00:06
Well, it shows you can't afford it... for by your own admission you were along only for the "freebies", now you don't have them...

Please don't ask silly questions. Who ever said a hobby was a "inexpensive affair"?

Look, you've made your mind and have a set budget. Face reality and go buy where you can get the most bang out of your limited buck. Go to the deep discounters and buy Folk Art or other crafts paints--they are really good and inexpensive. It's all right, many here do it, but stop the "outraged at GW" pose for, no matter how you try to spin it, you just end up sounding like a cheapskate.

The company owes you nothing. You pay for the goods they offer and those you consider worthy of getting.

If they had nice community incentives, but those are no longer there, they were extras... no one was entitled to have them, no one deserves them; and obviously these were not cost effective or fully appreciated by the people who used them.

Welcome to the harsh reality of 21st century GW: make a business grow for a shrinking niche in a recessive economy.

Im skipping ahead and may edit replies to other posts in later, but as for the bolded; by the same token, we owe the company nothing.

The sentiment expressed by the person you're attacking(really, calling someone a cheapskate is a bit low) is that we are encouraged to support our local store if we use the services in that store. If the service he used and enjoyed was the store painting area which let him save a little extra money(likely to spend on actual models remember), and the store no longer offers that service, why should he feel obligated to patronise it?

Would you be calling him names if you switched the words "painting area" with "gaming tables"? I don't think so.

I do not use my local GW's tables or painting area, so on the rare occasion I buy these days I do so through trades or discount stores. I buy my Black Library books from the store however, despite them often being just as abundant in the local Waterstones, because by stocking them GW are providing me with a convenience in that I don't have to wait for days for the book to arrive if I order online.

GW originally took a participatory approach with it's attendant community. For whatever reasons, they have chosen to move this to a more standard business/customer relationship, which is entirely their prerogative. To suggest that we as customers should maintain the undivided loyalty from the original relationship without receiving the benefits of it is ludicrous.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
16-04-2010, 00:17
Expecting GW to provide paints etc for your personal use in store is unreasonable and naive. They are, after all, a company trying to make a profit in a very trying environment and providing paints for customer use is going to cut in to the profitability of the store. There have been many analogies used on this thread to try to explain it, but it still seems that there are some here who don't seem to get the point.

Another poster taking my words out of context and having a go at me for asking the question rather than answering it himself.

DISCLAIMER: As a consumer I don't think I am entitled to any of the value added services GW use to provide. However, with said services gone I don't think there is sufficient justification to pay the higher prices charged at official stores.

RevEv
16-04-2010, 07:45
Another poster taking my words out of context and having a go at me for asking the question rather than answering it himself.

DISCLAIMER: As a consumer I don't think I am entitled to any of the value added services GW use to provide. However, with said services gone I don't think there is sufficient justification to pay the higher prices charged at official stores.

Not really. Having re-read your first post again I think I have provided a fair opinion of your unreasonable complaint.

If you had, however, found yourself receiving poor service through poor customer relations, poor product knowledge, or poor resolution of product issues - all things that GW excel at in my opinion - then you would have a point. However, complaining that you are no longer going to use a store because a complimentary, extra service has now been withdrawn due, most likely, to abuse by customers such as yourself is petty. It is akin to saying you won't use a supermarket because they have ceased giving out free samples upon which you can snack.

dante76
16-04-2010, 10:49
Seriously, I run an indie, and I couldn't afford and also have no desire to have paint handouts. I get no samples sets from GW apart from a few kits 2 weeks before a launch, for the occasional customer to look at, and the occasional packing errors (once sent 2 boxes of Blood Knights not listed )

I found your standpoint self serving. You were using facilities provide to get your models undercoated and made for 'free'. They pulled the plug so you stopped going there. Whilst you used to buy your models there, it seemed only due to the saving you made from primer, glue and paint.

I'd be surprised to find an indie or local game store who has the income to have this luxury. I have a 35% margin on my products + vat. If I let you use 1 can of spray, I need to sell 2 to break even.

Yeah its a shame they stopped it, but heck we all got bills to pay.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
16-04-2010, 11:36
Not really. Having re-read your first post again I think I have provided a fair opinion of your unreasonable complaint.

If you had, however, found yourself receiving poor service through poor customer relations, poor product knowledge, or poor resolution of product issues - all things that GW excel at in my opinion - then you would have a point. However, complaining that you are no longer going to use a store because a complimentary, extra service has now been withdrawn due, most likely, to abuse by customers such as yourself is petty. It is akin to saying you won't use a supermarket because they have ceased giving out free samples upon which you can snack.

Well I don't think you have. I have NEVER said in this thread that I expect such value added services from GW and your reply starts and continues with this assumption. With regards to you calling me petty for reconsidering where I shop I would like to quote Yodhrin,


To suggest that we as customers should maintain the undivided loyalty from the original relationship without receiving the benefits of it is ludicrous.

I would also like to reiterate that this thread was never primarily for complaining. I was asking a genuine question to which I've received few answers and many "opinions".

It seems to me that one may buy from GW if they play there (and this is still a moral decision I have to make) or if they need the odd paint and don't want to have to wait for the delivery of it or if they are just in the mood for an impulse buy or if they want the help of a staff member. These reasons aside I see no reason to buy from GW and as a veteran gamer most of these don't really hold water either.

Lastly, to the numerous people who have cried the likes of "cheapskate", "it's people like you that make such services close", "sponger" or words to that effect I have in the 5 years I've been gaming bought 2 starters sets, 5 army books, 3 years worth of White Dwarf, 3 2000 points army, 2 army cases as well as (shock, shock) buying every single paint in the range at some time or other and introducing others into the hobby. I doubt I damaged GW too much.

ashc
16-04-2010, 12:27
These reasons aside I see no reason to buy from GW and as a veteran gamer most of these don't really hold water either.

I would say this is down to two things then:

A) You do not consider the premium price that GW charge for you to buy directly from them as worth it, and hence you are looking at buying elsewhere (online no doubt). If thats the case then I don't see any problem with that whatsoever, plenty of people (including myself) already do that.

B) In my opinion the stores aren't for veterans anymore anyway, and GW aren't too bothered at whether you are using them or not. they are key positions in the high street to get new (probably younger) gamers in to their 'GW Hobby' (Note, they do not want people in the wargaming or miniatures hobby, just purely their own brand of GW hobby niche).

isaac
16-04-2010, 12:29
Pushing people off to other places exposes them to other games though.

ashc
16-04-2010, 12:33
Pushing people off to other places exposes them to other games though.

Of course it does, but I think there is a possibility that GW have finally come to terms with that. They would rather grab the newbies and drain them of as much cash as possible on the high street than worry too much about the veterans.

There seems to be more of a push towards home and club gaming these days than any gaming in a GW store.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
16-04-2010, 12:53
In my opinion the stores aren't for veterans anymore anyway

This has certainly been the case in most stores I have been to. Visiting my home town recently I asked at the store which night veterans night was on. He answered my question by saying "Thursday but only 5 or so people turn up, however, there is an independent gaming club that accommodates 40 or so gamers weekly"

isaac
16-04-2010, 12:58
The problem is "churn and burn" is not a viable long term strategy, does anyone know of other companies who have tried that? Ignore long term dedicated customers to focus on players who will buy a bit and then leave?

ashc
16-04-2010, 13:00
The problem is "churn and burn" is not a viable long term strategy, does anyone know of other companies who have tried that? Ignore long term dedicated customers to focus on players who will buy a bit and then leave?

Of course its not, but its what GW have been living on for a couple of years at least :p

And whilst I agree with you in principle Isaac, I don't think going back to having their GW stores as 'smelly geek den central' is good for the company either.

isaac
16-04-2010, 13:25
Then what do you suggest? My idea is "hub" stores which are destination places and GW uses them to support indies (Who bring in more cash anyway). Show the stores that they should mainly carry/push GW product, because it is worth pushing it (sales/support/etc.)

Jagged
16-04-2010, 13:32
Of course it does, but I think there is a possibility that GW have finally come to terms with that. They would rather grab the newbies and drain them of as much cash as possible on the high street than worry too much about the veterans.

There seems to be more of a push towards home and club gaming these days than any gaming in a GW store.

Agreed, although I would be slightly less cynical in my terminology :)

My LGW have been very good in supporting my son as he learned the game and now he's "mastered" it they have suggested a few clubs he could attend.

My experience as a parent of GW stores and their ability to teach young kids the game is that they are FRIKKIN BRILLIANT!. No doubt some of you (as veterans) won't value this service as much as I. But you should as any new blood is good for us all.

Glabro
16-04-2010, 14:07
I don't know, I generally value players who get interested and learn about the game on their own accord rather more than those who need to be "recruited" ie. impressed by a storeworker - most of those end up quitting anyway and are usually a bit....young and impressionable.

yabbadabba
16-04-2010, 14:12
I don't know, I generally value players who get interested and learn about the game on their own accord rather more than those who need to be "recruited" ie. impressed by a storeworker - most of those end up quitting anyway and are usually a bit....young and impressionable.
But this is a far more reliable technique of growth than feeding from the same trough as everyone else and hoping, occasionally, that some more people will get incolved through some bizarre luck of Brownian motion.

RevEv
16-04-2010, 14:24
A good Red shirt is often the key to recruitment. Certainly that was the case when my wife and I started. I was the interested one, but poor; she was the rich one but hadn't a clue about GW.

If Mrs RevEv had not been shown SoB (or 'Nuns with Guns' as they were described to her by the Red Shirt) I doubt I would be posting here now, nor have the problem of moving our collection every time we have to move, nor have made several good friends, nor have been able to share a hobby with both my sons, nor have had a release from the stresses of work when I'm away from home.

The store staff have a hard enough time as it is from Head Office without getting grief from us that we can no longer use certain facilities that some take for granted, but are actually complimentary and supplementary to the actuality of selling the product.

yabbadabba
16-04-2010, 14:40
A good Red shirt is often the key to recruitment. Certainly that was the case when my wife and I started. I was the interested one, but poor; she was the rich one but hadn't a clue about GW.

If Mrs RevEv had not been shown SoB (or 'Nuns with Guns' as they were described to her by the Red Shirt) I doubt I would be posting here now, nor have the problem of moving our collection every time we have to move, nor have made several good friends, nor have been able to share a hobby with both my sons, nor have had a release from the stresses of work when I'm away from home.

The store staff have a hard enough time as it is from Head Office without getting grief from us that we can no longer use certain facilities that some take for granted, but are actually complimentary and supplementary to the actuality of selling the product. While I agree with you very much on this one, it is unfortunately a point of view that will be shot down on here.

precinctomega
16-04-2010, 14:43
Going back to the OP:

There is no reason for you to shop at GW. So don't. No one will lose any sleep over this.

Looking at the bigger picture raised in the thread:

Not all GW stores are equal, just as neither are all indie stores. Similarly, not all stores are geared to support all hobbyists equally. Example: I've recently moved to a new area and joined a new club. Whilst there, I was told that the manager of the local GW was "********** useless" amongst other, even less complimentary descriptions. I was advised to go to a more-distant GW store, where the manager was a "great bloke".

Last week, I helped out running demo and participation games at a fun day in support of a local charity and chatted to a good number of visitors. One woman, in particular, whose young son was joining in a game of 40k, told me that the local manager was "brilliant", by contrast to the other store (which was closer to her), where the manager was "aggressive and unpleasant".

The fact is that both of these managers are perfectly decent at doing what they do, but one chooses to focus on youngsters and their parents, whilst the other is more interested in supporting veterans.

Neither approach is right or wrong. They're just different. And if your local GW store doesn't offer you anything you need, then don't go. They won't mind.

For my part, I love Maelstrom Games. Their prices are excellent and I can buy all of my favourite games in one place, and free postage is brilliant. Their service can be a bit slow, though, and often items aren't in stock for weeks at a time, so my local GW is the perfect place to go when I need something quickly (such as the other morning, when I rushed it to demand an Ork Codex and a bottle of plastic glue - QUICKLY!) but, for everything else I go to Maelstrom.

R.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
16-04-2010, 15:35
There is no reason for you to shop at GW. So don't. No one will lose any sleep over this.

I would say GW would be foolish not to "lose sleepover this".

yabbadabba
16-04-2010, 15:39
I would say GW would be foolish not to "lose sleepover this". You need to back up your statements, especially as this is your thread.

Llew
16-04-2010, 15:54
Any company (okay...apparently any company *other* than GW) needs to have a handle on why their customers stay and what makes their customers depart. While the OP hasn't sworn off GW games, he's considering buying elsewhere. This means that he won't help defray the overhead of that particular store anymore with his purchases. Maybe it helps the parent company as he buys 20% more units through other vendors due to discounting, but hurts his local.

Regardless, the reasons customers shop with you and stop shopping with you should be of interest to a store manager.

Reinholt
16-04-2010, 16:10
You need to back up your statements, especially as this is your thread.

Heresy, good sir!

Do you not realize this is the internet?

crandall87
16-04-2010, 16:14
You could do something crazy like organize your club into a trade account if you were big enough and did enough volume. Ger serious discount that way but definately significant work and properly need some type of commerical address which was open atleast weekly to recieve deliveries.

You would have to have a business that sells GW items. You can't just group together with a trade account because that would break one of their 100 policies.

MarcoSkoll
16-04-2010, 16:17
I would say GW would be foolish not to "lose sleepover this".
I've just had this mental image of the head office bigwigs turning up at WHW with sleeping bags and bedding down in the design studio to tell scary stories.

yabbadabba
16-04-2010, 16:24
Heresy, good sir!
Do you not realize this is the internet? Dammit! My naivety! :D

RevEv
16-04-2010, 16:45
While I agree with you very much on this one, it is unfortunately a point of view that will be shot down on here.

Do I give a care?

Do I heck!

Shoot me down all you want, I will still hold the opinion I have. It is, after all, my opinion. I have formed it. I am proud of it and I have yet to be convinced I am wrong!

Of course, I could be wrong about my opinion upon my opinion - in which case I may need to alter my original opinion!

Nonetheless, I stand by my original point of view (what was it again, I forget)?

Earl_UK
16-04-2010, 16:55
As much as i hate to admit, my last visit to my local GW store was a good visit.

Walking towards shop.... I note its dead no punters and 2 bored members of staff....

In the corner of my eye as I am about to pass by I see a Space Hulk on the shelf only two left.

Bah Sodit !

Straight in, take it of the shelf, walk to counter get wallet out.

Staff member says " Theres someone who knows what he wants".

"yup" is my reply... input pin number to the credit card terminal.

"Thank you" goes staff member "Thank you" back from me.

Exit.

Job done and i wasnt naused once... SHOCK !

Tower_Of_The_Stars
16-04-2010, 17:01
You need to back up your statements, especially as this is your thread.

To be honest I didn't feel like I had to in this instance due to the obvious inference of my statement. No matter, Llew has helpfully explained my point for you.


Any company (okay...apparently any company *other* than GW) needs to have a handle on why their customers stay and what makes their customers depart. While the OP hasn't sworn off GW games, he's considering buying elsewhere. This means that he won't help defray the overhead of that particular store anymore with his purchases. Maybe it helps the parent company as he buys 20% more units through other vendors due to discounting, but hurts his local.

Regardless, the reasons customers shop with you and stop shopping with you should be of interest to a store manager.

caddock
16-04-2010, 17:52
The relationship between a smart consumer and a seller is always antagonistic. Consumers aim is to get as much 'value' for their dollar as possible. Sellers want to get as much dollar for as little 'value' as possible. Always and continuously at odds there.

Neither owes the other anything. They don't have to sell to me and I don't have to buy from them. So how does any transaction take place? As a consumer I need to be enticed to give a seller my money.

Some items only come from one place and so if a consumer values that item enough they have no choice but to meet the sellers terms. (or steal it) Other things, like models and hobby supplies, are pretty much available anywhere given the Internet.

In the case of these types of items a consumer will look at all the providers and see which is the best value for them. One box of models is exactly the same as another, so comparing money alone would make for easy choice 5$ is better than 10$ for the same box.

Given there is perceived value in instant gratification a consumer may be willing to spend 8$ for what he/she could get for 5 if they can have it now instead of a week from now. (I wouldn't but I am pretty patient)
Things like free paint and drop in times to play games may further entice the consumer to pay 10$ for something they can get for 5$. He/She sees those added functions as value for their 10$. As in "I only want to spend 5$ but I'm willing to spend 10$ to get it right now with the thought that I can come in and paint it and play later."

If later the seller changes the value proposition by removing things (like free paint, and time to play) then the consumer also re-evaluates whether that seller is offering proper value for that consumers dollar. As in "I only want to spend 5$, this seller wants 10$; what's in it for me to give this seller an extra 5 of my dollars? Nothing? Okay then I buy it from elsewhere."

This isn't being naive, the consumer knows the store needs to make money, they just shouldn't care about anything than getting fair value for their money. If they can get more for their money somewhere else than that is what they should do.

The onus is on the seller to find a balance whereby they add just enough value increments until they are happy they have enticed enough consumers to give them money instead of another seller. This is hard because all consumers value things differently, for some free paint is a big deal and worth spending 10 instead of 5, for others the ability to have a shop in their town that employs their friends is enough to ensure they spend 10 instead of 5. Large companies spend millions of dollars tracking everything they say to customers, how customers react, everything they buy , the time of year and day to try and find that balance.

Llew
16-04-2010, 17:58
The relationship between a smart consumer and a seller is always antagonistic. Consumers aim is to get as much 'value' for their dollar as possible. Sellers want to get as much dollar for as little 'value' as possible. Always and continuously at odds there.

Neither owes the other anything. They don't have to sell to me and I don't have to buy from them. So how does any transaction take place? As a consumer I need to be enticed to give a seller my money.

Some items only come from one place and so if a consumer values that item enough they have no choice but to meet the sellers terms. (or steal it) Other things, like models and hobby supplies, are pretty much available anywhere given the Internet.

In the case of these types of items a consumer will look at all the providers and see which is the best value for them. One box of models is exactly the same as another, so comparing money alone would make for easy choice 5$ is better than 10$ for the same box.

Given there is perceived value in instant gratification a consumer may be willing to spend 8$ for what he/she could get for 5 if they can have it now instead of a week from now. (I wouldn't but I am pretty patient)
Things like free paint and drop in times to play games may further entice the consumer to pay 10$ for something they can get for 5$. He/She sees those added functions as value for their 10$. As in "I only want to spend 5$ but I'm willing to spend 10$ to get it right now with the thought that I can come in and paint it and play later."

If later the seller changes the value proposition by removing things (like free paint, and time to play) then the consumer also re-evaluates whether that seller is offering proper value for that consumers dollar. As in "I only want to spend 5$, this seller wants 10$; what's in it for me to give this seller an extra 5 of my dollars? Nothing? Okay then I buy it from elsewhere."

This isn't being naive, the consumer knows the store needs to make money, they just shouldn't care about anything than getting fair value for their money. If they can get more for their money somewhere else than that is what they should do.

The onus is on the seller to find a balance whereby they add just enough value increments until they are happy they have enticed enough consumers to give them money instead of another seller. This is hard because all consumers value things differently, for some free paint is a big deal and worth spending 10 instead of 5, for others the ability to have a shop in their town that employs their friends is enough to ensure they spend 10 instead of 5. Large companies spend millions of dollars tracking everything they say to customers, how customers react, everything they buy , the time of year and day to try and find that balance.

That was a cogent and well-thought-out point. I'm pretty sure the correct response to it, judging from past history is:

"GWisastoreandtheyareinittomakemoneyandyoushouldjus tgivethemmoneybecausetheydon'toweyouanythingeveryo ucheapskate!"

Or something like that.

isaac
16-04-2010, 18:24
The relationship between a smart consumer and *snip for wall of text* and find that balance.

Perfectly said


That was a cogent and well-thought-out point. I'm pretty sure the correct response to it, judging from past history is:

"GWisastoreandtheyareinittomakemoneyandyoushouldjus tgivethemmoneybecausetheydon'toweyouanythingeveryo ucheapskate!"

Or something like that.

Pretty much :D

caddock
16-04-2010, 18:33
I'd like to point out, in case I was too one-sided earlier,

A seller should always try to make as much money as possible and if they have done some analysis that shows they make x dollars in profit last quarter but if they remove free paint and other value-adds they'll make x +.5 profit next quarter that is what they should do.

Someone should do some long range strategic thinking about the perceived value as too many business make decisions based on next quarter's profit without thought about the impact it'll have on the company in 1 year. Hopefully that analysis is strong and has taken in all the factors like customers' perceived value or it will backfire.

leeoaks
16-04-2010, 21:11
i don't want to offend any staff, however are these store issues because the staff are well crap or just not motivated? GW pays peanuts and has no real incentive scheme for their staff. I would love to work for a GW however the pay is so poor.

The GW stores don't need to make a profit they are a mechanism to hook people into a hobby more addictive than crack! Part of this is giving the younger hobbyist something and someone to aspire to. This is where i think GW are missing a trick and it is tricky to get right. The issue is managing such a community as you have to balance a huge number of factors.

GW won't care if they lose lose millions from stores if sales from stockists increase, it makes no difference where the sale takes place. if each store is recruiting properly GW will do well.

If a GW store breaks even or is profitable then superb......However purchase from where you like you will not offend GW.

BobtheInquisitor
17-04-2010, 01:36
Sorry for the ambiguity. The question was entirely rhetorical. To clarify, I don't feel I owe GW anything.

Think of it more as owing yourself something. If YOU like to play in a GW store, you should really spend money there, and encourage others to, so that they don't close the store and thus deprive YOU of a place to play the game. If YOU don't care about YOU not being able to play in a GW, then don't bother.



As someone who worked in retail, though, I feel compelled to tell you that the chuds who sat in our store all day without making any purchases really were seen as the scummiest people. And the most despised. We all remembered the "customers" who created messes, 'used' the facilities (when they didn't just befoul the carpet/elevator), added to our workload and the company's overhead costs (which lowered the money available to us for raises), and yet never actually gave us any custom. It's just a low-class thing to do. Just watch out that you don't develop a reputation among the staff.

P.S.: When more people are misconstruing your words than actually understanding them, it is time to reconsider your words.

RevEv
17-04-2010, 09:24
Think of it more as owing yourself something. If YOU like to play in a GW store, you should really spend money there, and encourage others to, so that they don't close the store and thus deprive YOU of a place to play the game. If YOU don't care about YOU not being able to play in a GW, then don't bother.



As someone who worked in retail, though, I feel compelled to tell you that the chuds who sat in our store all day without making any purchases really were seen as the scummiest people. And the most despised. We all remembered the "customers" who created messes, 'used' the facilities (when they didn't just befoul the carpet/elevator), added to our workload and the company's overhead costs (which lowered the money available to us for raises), and yet never actually gave us any custom. It's just a low-class thing to do. Just watch out that you don't develop a reputation among the staff.

P.S.: When more people are misconstruing your words than actually understanding them, it is time to reconsider your words.

QFT (especially the PS).

When working as a key-timer in a GW store we were constantly asking 'customers' to either buy something or leave the painting station. They seemed to have no concept of the store as a selling point for the hobby, and it was not big enough for them to use it as a youth club. In the end we just put the paints away.

Glabro
17-04-2010, 11:38
As someone who worked in retail, though, I feel compelled to tell you that the chuds who sat in our store all day without making any purchases really were seen as the scummiest people. And the most despised.


See? They're all evil capitalist drones I tell you, only caring about about your money and not caring about good company during the quiet hour.

Seriously though, I've always wondered why hobby hangout-type(ish) stores simply don't charge for their services like gaming tables and stuff, unless you make purchases (they'd have "accounts" depending on how much you spent, also helps in rememebering each customer which is important anyway)

Tower_Of_The_Stars
17-04-2010, 11:43
Think of it more as owing yourself something. If YOU like to play in a GW store, you should really spend money there, and encourage others to, so that they don't close the store and thus deprive YOU of a place to play the game. If YOU don't care about YOU not being able to play in a GW, then don't bother.

As someone who worked in retail, though, I feel compelled to tell you that the chuds who sat in our store all day without making any purchases really were seen as the scummiest people. And the most despised. We all remembered the "customers" who created messes, 'used' the facilities (when they didn't just befoul the carpet/elevator), added to our workload and the company's overhead costs (which lowered the money available to us for raises), and yet never actually gave us any custom. It's just a low-class thing to do. Just watch out that you don't develop a reputation among the staff.

P.S.: When more people are misconstruing your words than actually understanding them, it is time to reconsider your words.

With regards to first paragraph, thanks for the advice, as mentioned before this is something I am having to weigh up


It seems to me that one may buy from GW if they play there (and this is still a moral decision I have to make)

With regards to the second paragraph, don't worry, I am not in danger of becoming scummy


Lastly, to the numerous people who have cried the likes of "cheapskate", "it's people like you that make such services close", "sponger" or words to that effect I have in the 5 years I've been gaming bought 2 starters sets, 5 army books, 3 years worth of White Dwarf, 3 2000 points army, 2 army cases as well as (shock, shock) buying every single paint in the range at some time or other and introducing others into the hobby. I doubt I damaged GW too much.

With regards to your P.S. I completely and wholeheartedly disagree. If people genuinely misconstrue my words the iniative is on me to help them understand what I'm trying to say. I understand this and have made all efforts in this thread to do so. When people understand my words and as a result take them out of context for some artificial justification to have a go at me, then of course I'm not going to reconsider them.


When working as a key-timer in a GW store

I would have never of guessed you worked for GW...

RevEv
17-04-2010, 12:15
I would have never of guessed you worked for GW...

Yes - I used to, and your point is what exactly?

It was one of the best jobs I have ever had, except for the time wasters and those who treated the store as a cheap youth club/free childcare.

I now work in a job where being in to GW is an advantage. I can take it with me when I go abroad and, being known by the GW staff locally, my wife can choose relevant items to send me for the little down time I have. Funnily enough it became a talking point, and a great way to get to know those I was there to help.

Perhaps, before you criticize people for doing something you don't agree with you should stop and think. There is a great deal to be gained by 'walking a mile in someone elses shoes'.

I see your point, but you seem incapable of seeing others points and their interpretation of your original statement.

Santiaghoul
17-04-2010, 16:54
This is no longer the outlook at GW. Store profitability is now the largest factor with GW. I know, I was just let go as part of the US downsizing. The reason for the downsize is to make the stores profitable. If a store, after the downsize is not profitable, then the staff will be replaced to see if that makes a difference, then the store itself will close. The future stores will be in lower rent, smaller locations with single operators. Thus spake Tom Kirby in the last email I got from GW.


i don't want to offend any staff, however are these store issues because the staff are well crap or just not motivated? GW pays peanuts and has no real incentive scheme for their staff. I would love to work for a GW however the pay is so poor.

The GW stores don't need to make a profit they are a mechanism to hook people into a hobby more addictive than crack! Part of this is giving the younger hobbyist something and someone to aspire to. This is where i think GW are missing a trick and it is tricky to get right. The issue is managing such a community as you have to balance a huge number of factors.

GW won't care if they lose lose millions from stores if sales from stockists increase, it makes no difference where the sale takes place. if each store is recruiting properly GW will do well.

If a GW store breaks even or is profitable then superb......However purchase from where you like you will not offend GW.

leeoaks
17-04-2010, 22:31
I know what is going on at gw....and i know about the latest store changes etc. I also know what i wrote is still correct. Again without causing a riot on this thread and aiming this at staff.......no company gets rid of quality sales staff. The bottom line is that you shouldn't get worried if you do or don't purchase from a GW store (independents are different) if you spend time there and they put on events then purchase, if not then don't and you shouldn't feel sorry for the staff.

i wish people brought my product because i emotionally twisted their arm!

Shamutanti
17-04-2010, 22:59
The GW stores don't need to make a profit



Yes, they do.

Before it used to be a case of no, they didn't need to. Recruitment was enough. Now it's a case of, all stores must make profit.

Not a tiny bit.

But target breaking profit.

Month after month.

The 5th and 6th company stores are being reduced to one man not because they're not profitable, but because they're not profitable enough. This may include some stores because the staff aren't meeting the targets set (typically 10/15% of what they made the previous year, month by month) but it's a change as part of the 'standards sweep' rolling over the company.

burad
17-04-2010, 22:59
The future stores will be in lower rent, smaller locations
Without some local market surveying, that's a continued recipe for disaster. Lower rent locations frequently equal less-popular, less-frequented, lower-income and less-visible locations, and that's why they're lower rent.

One would suppose when GW closes one store and opens a nearby replacement in a less desireable location, they are counting on being able to get back whatever customers they did have previously. Can't imagine otherwise why one would want to open a new store in a poor location.

I'll be interested to actually see this happen, because I haven't yet; the first GW store to close in our region will be the local one here, so we'll see if they do that or not.


no company gets rid of quality sales staff
Au contraire, that's exactly what several good sized companies did in the recent past, the year before they went under. They got rid of all the better paid, more experienced employees to save money on salary. Then their customer satisfaction went way south, since the noob staff didn't know anything and couldn't deal with problems. And so people went elsewhere and they went under while their competitors survived.

leeoaks
18-04-2010, 01:51
and why do they need to make a profit? because the stores have become slack and uninteresting (as a whole). This is the latest knee jerk to the results GW has been getting. i visit many gamesworkshops and see some truely rubbish stores and only a few good ones.

of course GW are saying to there employees you need to make profit...wouldn't you.

"Au contraire, that's exactly what several good sized companies did in the recent past, the year before they went under. They got rid of all the better paid, more experienced employees to save money on salary. Then their customer satisfaction went way south, since the noob staff didn't know anything and couldn't deal with problems. And so people went elsewhere and they went under while their competitors survived. "

i should have added the following.....no sane company.

"The 5th and 6th company stores are being reduced to one man not because they're not profitable, but because they're not profitable enough. This may include some stores because the staff aren't meeting the targets set (typically 10/15% of what they made the previous year, month by month) but it's a change as part of the 'standards sweep' rolling over the company. "

The target i set my team goes way above the base line cost of the business. Remember that they are targets! i never said that GW wouldn't want their stores to make money. i simply said that its not a must if there is a big enough generation of new customers that really get into the hobby. Which is why gw wont give two hoots if you buy in a store or online.

Harry
18-04-2010, 09:15
i don't want to offend any staff, however are these store issues because the staff are well crap or just not motivated?


... because the stores have become slack and uninteresting (as a whole).

When I pop into a GW store I have found the staff to be great. Attentive, friendly and enthusiastic.
I usually find them busy building and painting the newest thing.
My stores have some great tables they have built which have changed regularly.
they have always been ready to take the time to show a youngster how to paint a mini OR do an intro game ... however busy they are painting up something for the store.

Maybe it is different where you are. I get around a bit so see a few stores but I live in Gloucestershire and the Gloucester store has always been staffed by especially friendly and enthusiastic staff.

Interesting What Bobtheinquisitor and RevEv have to say.
Whenever I go in and hang around for a while ... I rarely use the painting tables but just have a chat and get a good look at the new releases ... I always feel the need to make a purchase. Just a couple of pots of paint or a new kit I can't resist.

Maybe you make your own luck and the warmth of the reception depends on what you bring to the store. If you are friendly, happy to chat, take an interest in what they are up to with their own projects and buy a little something when you visit ... maybe, just maybe you will see the best from the staff who work there.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
18-04-2010, 12:28
Yes - I used to, and your point is what exactly?

It was one of the best jobs I have ever had, except for the time wasters and those who treated the store as a cheap youth club/free childcare.

I now work in a job where being in to GW is an advantage. I can take it with me when I go abroad and, being known by the GW staff locally, my wife can choose relevant items to send me for the little down time I have. Funnily enough it became a talking point, and a great way to get to know those I was there to help.

Perhaps, before you criticize people for doing something you don't agree with you should stop and think. There is a great deal to be gained by 'walking a mile in someone elses shoes'.

I see your point, but you seem incapable of seeing others points and their interpretation of your original statement.

Woah there sonny, slow yourself down. I'm not critising you for working there whatsoever. My point was simply that you reacted to my inital question as one might expect a staff member of GW to.

To be honest however, I find your last couple of parapgraphs a little hypocritical considering your posts in this thread. Regardless I agree with their sentiment and am disapointed that you feel the need to give me such advice as I have tried to be reasonable and empathetic to all points made. I will strive to continue in this vain, may I suggest you do the same too?

Lewis
18-04-2010, 12:47
I am a firm believer in buy where you play. When finding a club in London I considered doing Thursdays at Oxford Street or Tuesdays at Darksphere. Obviously the fact that Dark sphere is a discount shop and a gaming space (albiet a small one with a smaller range of opponents)won out for me, but I truly believe that if Dark Sphere did not exist I would be buying full price from GW regularly rather than from a discount on line.

Grimstonefire
18-04-2010, 15:15
This is quite an interesting thread; whether to support bricks and mortar stores over online? Whether to go to FLGS or GW?

There are no local bricks and mortar stores near enough to me to make me want to support them over online, so I go with the discounters.

I am a firm believer in 'vote with your wallet', so I doubt I will buy much from a GW store again. I wouldn't at an FLGS unless they had a similar discount and were close.

Edit: There is a bricks and mortar store near me, but I will never by from them because of the owner.

Spectrar Ghost
18-04-2010, 16:01
Being an Epic player, my choices of where to buy are limited. For certain things that are hard to find good proxies for, or are actually priced reasonably (Plastic Infantry, Sentinels, Titans, Eldar, and oddly enough, FW stuff), and basic supplies (except glues), my local GW gets my cash. Anything that a less expensive proxy can be found (Chimaeras, Basilisks, Russes), I shop elsewhere.

It is important to me and the local Epic scene that my local store get my money, simply because they have a very relaxed stance towards SG (and non-GW proxies, to a degree) at this point, and I would not want that to change.

Personally, I never used the store supplies, simply because I didn't know who had used them before. I know my own paints haven't had a brush of blue paint dipped in the red. I know the blades on my knives and clippers are sharp. I don't know that about store use supplies. I also prefer the liquid plastic glue to the type GW sells, etc.

However, I also know there are people who did use those supplies, and that the ability to do so can be a significant value added to the store's presence.

Glabro
18-04-2010, 17:44
Any business plan that relies on charity / loyalty or gratefulness for services rendered is flawed. We still want those services, so charge for them, dammit! My "local" FLGS shut down its gaming space just as I moved into the area. That was a major bummer.

Crazy Harborc
18-04-2010, 18:08
Sorry but I have got to comment on a post on page one.

GW does owe it's customers something. GW owes it's existence to the paying customers. The hobby of wargaming was already out there before GW came along. The hobby of wargaming will outlive GW. "The hobby of GW" was a business ploy of GW's. The now occuring changes are proving that statement by the by.;)

RevEv
18-04-2010, 19:52
Woah there sonny, slow yourself down. I'm not critising you for working there whatsoever. My point was simply that you reacted to my inital question as one might expect a staff member of GW to.

To be honest however, I find your last couple of parapgraphs a little hypocritical considering your posts in this thread. Regardless I agree with their sentiment and am disapointed that you feel the need to give me such advice as I have tried to be reasonable and empathetic to all points made. I will strive to continue in this vain, may I suggest you do the same too?

Anyone who starts off their argument by referring to someone they have never met as 'Sonny' is not worth any further conversation.

Tower_Of_The_Stars
18-04-2010, 22:17
Anyone who starts off their argument by referring to someone they have never met as 'Sonny' is not worth any further conversation.

Suits me fine ;)

Seriously though, sorry for any offense caused, it wasn't intended.

RevEv
19-04-2010, 07:09
Apology accepted!

Nurglitch_PS
19-04-2010, 08:04
The stores don't want freeloaders hanging about, heck, it seems they don't want people in there playing games either.

My few visits to GW stores left me with an impression that they didn't want me around and thus didn't want my wallet around. My enquiries about the vet days were met with evasive reluctance. It just seems to me that being 32 I am, as a certain bear would say, too old for GW.

And no, I see no reason whatsoever to buy from them. I don't follow the logic of having any kind of a "duty" to buy products from a private company. I don\t have a patriotic "duty" to buy Coca-Cola, Duracell batteries, Canon cameras or GW toy soldiers. I buy they when I need them and obviously seek the best deal. Since GW is unwilling to offer me even a decent deal (much less best) my money will go to them via a middle-man who does. And that's that.

blongbling
19-04-2010, 09:03
Gw stores have ALWAYS had to make a profit, the current trend is nothing new. What is new however is the way they are putting it into the store manager minds. As an ex store manager we were never told our P&L for the store nor was it ever mentioned. It was all about recruitment and retention (back in the late 90's)

Now the same is still true but are making the store managers more financially responsible (in the same way the trade team members are) and are making sure they see the ramifications for doing well against those numbers and also not so well against those numbers. This will help sort the wheat from the chafe in the retail chain as a lot of those guys couldn't run a bath let alone a profitable store (sorry for the insults but having met nearly every store manager in the UK over the last 14 years I can tell you it is sadly true).

As a business its largest fixed overhead has to be performing else no amount of money generated by other parts of the business will ever make up the short fall

isaac
19-04-2010, 13:16
Being profitable is not the same as trying to beat each month and make profit at the expense of other factors.

Old Model, Recruit and Retain, be profitable

New Model, SELL SELL SELL, Recruit

blongbling
19-04-2010, 13:26
I'm not sure where you worked in retail/sales but retail and any sales role is always about hitting the target you are set each month.

GW has always been about selling product. The whole ten commandments is about putting you into a position where by you can sell products to a customer by finding out what they collect, what they have and suggesting products/informing them of things they should buy.

isaac
19-04-2010, 13:55
I meant Hard sell, which frankly puts some people off.

rev
19-04-2010, 18:38
I don't often buy GW, its mostly when I've got to have somethign right away, which justifies the extra 2 over online prices.

I decided today I want a chaos lord. I wanted to build it tonight, so I went to GW mortar store. Otherwise I'm happy to buy online for cheap and wait it out.

Rev

Reinholt
20-04-2010, 00:11
In short:

It's your money. Spend it where you want.

Everyone has a varying set of preferences, and varying points where prices and service offerings will tip those preferences in favor of purchasing from certain companies (or not purchasing at all). The beauty of an open market is that the preferences of consumers in aggregate become clear, as you can watch who succeeds and who fails.

No company 'deserves' your money. Be informed and then buy from whomever fits your personal preferences best, which may very well be different from someone else, and don't apologize for it. That's the point.

Crazy Harborc
20-04-2010, 00:17
Since GW, USA has made buying GW on-line a no no....I strongly believe GW drove away a fair number of potential as well as actual customers and or the parents (actual minies pay for/buyers).

Of the several mail order/on-line sites I can buy from only GW's wants suggested retail prices paid for the GW products. True only GW, USA is the online store whose on-line cart can be used. BUT....it's NO big deal to phone in an order and receive a 20% discount.

Funny thing.....the indie stores in my metro area, that are stocking GW (again) had tables all this time. They needed them for the regular players of other wargame systems.

ALL that said. I've no need to buy from GW or to buy GW products. WAY to many sets of good rules that are 180 degrees removed from anything GW related. Plenty of non-GW minies that are MUCH more reasonable in price.;)

Yodhrin
20-04-2010, 02:57
I'm not sure where you worked in retail/sales but retail and any sales role is always about hitting the target you are set each month.

They are indeed, but there is an important distinction between Retail and Sales. A Retail store sets targets and expects staff and store management to do their level best to achieve those targets, which are generally based on operating cost + reasonable profit margin.

A Sales business sets targets and punishes staff and management for not achieving them, and their targets are based on previous year plus an arbitrary amount of "growth" determined by head office.

Having worked in and managed both types, Ill tell you this; if your company chooses the Sales business model, you will have unhappy management, unhappy staff and unhappy customers. Your staff turnover will be stupidly high, your managers will burn out from overwork and stress, and your customers will be constantly complaining about poor service.

There's a reason "proper" Sales jobs come with either a high salary or a moderate salary and a very respectable bonus/commission package, it's a stressful job. You can't combine the high-stress Sales method with the low pay of a Retail job and expect positive results.

blongbling
20-04-2010, 10:22
lol, even when I was a pub manager we were set targets that if we didn't hit them I would be asked why, why my promotions didn't work as well, etc. and continued bad performance resulted in action.

You can effectively have sale models working in retail stores, these are the stores where you have trained staff advising the customers on purchases, that is just subtle selling and one which they can directly influence. Hell even in Starbucks this week they tried to upsell to buy some of the new instant coffee they do (when asked they were commissioned on their sales of it), what about when you go to a bar, is that a double sir? upsold again. Did you know that if you buy another one of those sir you get a third free? oh, more money for the retailer

Selling happens in retail stores all the time, the key is subtlety and relying on the lay person not realising what is going on.

Now i agree that unreasonable targeting of stores and growth is a demotivating factor to some and a challenge to others (you have to find ways to make it happen) but a good store manager will protect his staff if they do well and make sure that he has a good team of people working for him to achieve what he has to do.

Having ran the trade departments for GW across the UK and NE I can tell you that we didn't pay our guys and gals a lot (compared to other sales roles) but still acquired some fantastic talent and got positive results, so it can happen and the same thing can happen in retail stores, but a lot of it is down to the managers ability to motivate and create opportunities for sales

isaac
20-04-2010, 16:41
Blongbling, that is the key behind soft and hard sells.

One is passive and customers respond well to it, the other is aggressive and puts people off.

Lord Inquisitor
20-04-2010, 17:15
I like to buy where I play. Particularly if there's a good gaming environment - good tables, decent playing hours and generally a lack of draconian rules. I absolutely have no idea why some GW managers disallow specialist games being played, for example, it just turns people away and keeps them from spending, really.

I'm also not a huge fan of mail-order or ebay. Sometimes it's worth the killer deal - I sure as anything mail-ordered back when I worked for GW and we had the leadweight discount - but I do like just getting my stuff from a store.

Put together I like to buy at a store. I don't buy often, other than the odd paintpot or brush, so you need to be prepared to put up with me coming in to play most times without buying anything, but then every so often I'll start a new army and drop quite a bit of cash.

I don't know about expecting to use paints. I never really understood coming to the store to paint - I guess it's better than painting alone but if I'm in the store I'd rather be playing. I've worked in GW stores and when we allowed customers to use our paints it was typically a pain to clean up afterwards and the brushes would get knackered - it was much easier if they brought their own stuff. But I can get that it was a courtesy service that comes to be expected.

However, in the 5 or so years since I last worked in a GW store - or, indeed, went to a GW store at all - it does seem like the gaming community side of the GW stores seems to have slipped, which I feel is a shame. Anyway, these days I buy at my FLGS and they even give me a 10% discount which is good enough to keep me from being tempted away to buy online and they have terrific opening hours and regular events and basic but adequate terrain. That's what a gaming store needs.

spetswalshe
20-04-2010, 17:46
Why can't people just be happy maintaining a profit, is what I say - it doesn't take aggressive sales practice and mistreatment of staff in order to keep things trundling along. Other companies manage growth without the idea that a store making 50 pure profit a day (or whatever) has to make 60 the next day. It's not as if they're in some kind of Pepsi/Coca-Cola arms-race with other companies; they have an extremely dominant market share and a fanbase with the kind of brand loyalty that is only possible when your grip on the market is so tight most customers wouldn't even be aware of competitors.

On staff treatment; most companies would not think letting go an 'extremely effective' member of staff because he was a 'poor fit' for the store was a stroke of fiscal genius. GW, however, describe such a person as 'very dangerous, remove immediately' (http://www.notsounwashed.com/2009/11/very-dangerous-remove-immediately/). Remember this is an 'extremely effective' member of staff - while an 'ineffective' and 'poor fit' staffer merely requires 'intensive training'.

Having received the free ghoul sprue Mantic has been sending out, I feel I can safely report that GW do not 'make the best model soldiers in the world' - they are merely able to make more of them.

Llew
20-04-2010, 18:00
...they have an extremely dominant market share and a fanbase with the kind of brand loyalty that is only possible when your grip on the market is so tight most customers wouldn't even be aware of competitors.

It is a dominant but eroding market share, and hence part of their desperation. It doesn't help that a number of the folks who are helping erode their market share have worked for GW and know where they are weak, while having learned the positive lessons that GW could provide.


On staff treatment; most companies would not think letting go an 'extremely effective' member of staff because he was a 'poor fit' for the store was a stroke of fiscal genius. GW, however, describe such a person as 'very dangerous, remove immediately' (http://www.notsounwashed.com/2009/11/very-dangerous-remove-immediately/). Remember this is an 'extremely effective' member of staff - while an 'ineffective' and 'poor fit' staffer merely requires 'intensive training'.

If someone is extremely effective at doing things you really don't want them to do, then they *are* dangerous to your company as it exists. Now, personally, I think those people would be a great way to improve your company, but that would involve changing what you do. GW doesn't appear to want change to come from anywhere but above. They are incredibly stodgy in that regard, and I think it can't help but hurt them. We'll see.


Having received the free ghoul sprue Mantic has been sending out, I feel I can safely report that GW do not 'make the best model soldiers in the world' - they are merely able to make more of them.

Mantic can make plenty though. GW is still great if you like their particular style, but for well-proportioned "real fantasy" miniatures, Mantic is tops. They harken back to the days when I fell in love with miniatures, but they do them with modern sensibilities. (Watch ebay for lots of my old GW stuff to hit in the near future.)

Jagged
21-04-2010, 11:43
When I pop into a GW store I have found the staff to be great. Attentive, friendly and enthusiastic.
I usually find them busy building and painting the newest thing.
My stores have some great tables they have built which have changed regularly.
they have always been ready to take the time to show a youngster how to paint a mini OR do an intro game ... however busy they are painting up something for the store.

Maybe it is different where you are. I get around a bit so see a few stores but I live in Gloucestershire and the Gloucester store has always been staffed by especially friendly and enthusiastic staff.

Interesting What Bobtheinquisitor and RevEv have to say.
Whenever I go in and hang around for a while ... I rarely use the painting tables but just have a chat and get a good look at the new releases ... I always feel the need to make a purchase. Just a couple of pots of paint or a new kit I can't resist.

Maybe you make your own luck and the warmth of the reception depends on what you bring to the store. If you are friendly, happy to chat, take an interest in what they are up to with their own projects and buy a little something when you visit ... maybe, just maybe you will see the best from the staff who work there.

Thats exactly how I find the Bristol store. Glad to see others have the same positive experience I see.

Darthvegeta800
23-04-2010, 19:38
Forget this and you will have neither.

Seconded! I try to buy from my shop frequently. Recently I actually bought from the GW website for my brother's bday and some stuff cheaply from fellow Warseer members. (Kheldane rocks! :p )
But I always buy stuff there too. WD (for now), paint, cardgames, occassional mini's. (frequently a nice order)
So... he really can't complain about me... and doesn't! :D