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bluekitsune13
14-04-2010, 18:14
I read through the LOTR book, and I really like the rules. I've played WFB and 40k before, and I think it gives you the best of both. My only problem is that I don't like the LOTR models at all. I'd much prefer to use the Warhammer Fantasy ones. A lot of the models will match up pretty well, but some like the Skaven or Ogres won't really fit easily. So I was wondering if anybody has done the work already of converting WFB figures to LOTR.

Midloo
14-04-2010, 18:57
Can't say that I have, but I don't see why you couldn't... other than the fact that a lot of us LotR fans are just as sold on the WETA designs and figures as we are on the game. I wouldn't have a problem with someone laying out some appropriatly based and trayed WHF figures for a WotR game, but I'm sure some folks would kind of chuckle/sneer at it. I wonder how that would play out in a GT? I know you can't have LotR figures "count as" WHF figs because of licensing, but I'm not sure of the other way around.

What force are you looking to make in WotR? What figures would you use?

Whitwort Stormbringer
14-04-2010, 20:22
My suggestions for ogres (assuming you're going for a whole army of them) would be a mix of cave trolls and half-trolls from far harad, and then maybe a troll chieftan or burdhur for characters. You could, in a pinch, use the profiles for cavalry for them, as well, but personally I think that's kind of stretching it (especially with how fast cavalry moves).

Skaven would just be goblins, in my mind.

One thing that's going to be difficult, I think, is that Warhammer relies much more heavily on diversity of troops than Lord of the Rings does (some LotR armies are quite diverse, others less so). Armies like Skaven, Ogres, and Undead of any variety are going to be pretty boring. Another thing is that LotR has far more evil human nations that Warhammer - perhaps some of these could be converted into Warhammer's undead armies, but you'd definitely be missing out on the "dead" aspects of them (causing fear, horde armies, etc.).

ForgottenLore
14-04-2010, 22:28
Just to verify, you are looking for advice on how to use Warhammer figs with the War of the Rings rules, or the Strategy Battles Game rules?

I have actually been encouraging this in my area as a way to get people playing the superior War of the Ring rules without having to spend lots of money.

Your right, though, a few of the armies are tricky to translate. Lizardmen in particular seems tough. Maybe Fallen Realms with Haradrim with poison and a big stegadon as a mumak. Warriors of Chaos would work well as Black Numenorians.

Ogre Kingdoms would definitely be trolls though, probably with some Moria goblins as Gnoblars.

It depends a lot on whether you want to just insert WH-F miniatures into an existing WotR army list or if you want to do some work and create a WotR army list that tries to match the WH-F armies.

Myself, once I have gotten some more experience with the system (and have some more time) I want to do a War of the 41st Millenium conversion so that I can play with all my 40K figs in a variation of the WotR rules.

bluekitsune13
14-04-2010, 23:23
I think it would be cool to actually write new rules for WFB miniatures using the LotR SBG rules. I've only played a few games with official LotR rules, and I like it. I like how fluid the battle lines are, because you're constantly being pushed around. It's just an idea of mine. Not sure if it's worth implementing. It would really just be a good excuse for me to buy some new miniatures. XD

Raditz
15-04-2010, 19:51
You want to use the models in an inferior game?

The first step I would take is to get all the round bases you need, or getting trays that are the same size as the WOTR ones and using the square bases.

Whitwort Stormbringer
16-04-2010, 02:41
I think the biggest problem that you're going to run into, really, is that this is a HUGE undertaking. So if you have the time and are dedicated to it, well it really shouldn't be all that difficult. A lot of things are going to translate directly (WS -> F, S -> S, T + Armor -> D, LD -> C, etc. etc.). Of course, there's no pressing need to come up with SBG profiles for armies that you and your playgroup don't collect, so in that sense the task is a little more manageable.

I would also, however, come up with a basic formula for the things that are fundamentally different. For instance, LotR doesn't have magic item lists or racial spell lists. So what you're going to want to do, isntead, is just assign spells and items to specific characters/character types. Conversely, Warhammer lacks Might, Will, and Fate. I would say apply those conservatively to Warhammer heroes. Heroes should get 2/1/1, Lords get 2/2/2 or maybe 3/2/2, and only special characters get 3/3/3. I would just seperate Wizards into two categories (rather than levels 1-4), and give them 1/3/1 for lesser wizards and 2/4/2 for greater wizards.

For movement, I would just use LotR's values for their Warhammer equivalents, and when there's not a LotR equivalent just go with common sense. Skaven, for instance, should probably be kept at 6" since elves are as well, even though it's the same speed as humans.

Midloo
16-04-2010, 13:52
uh... have we gotten away from the OP's question a little bit?

It seemed to me that he was just asking if you could use WHF models for a LotR game. Sure - ogres 'count as' trolls, skaven 'count as' goblins. If you're playing WotR, you wouldn't even need to rebase them - just have trays of the correct size.

Whitwort Stormbringer
16-04-2010, 17:34
uh... have we gotten away from the OP's question a little bit?

It seemed to me that he was just asking if you could use WHF models for a LotR game. Sure - ogres 'count as' trolls, skaven 'count as' goblins. If you're playing WotR, you wouldn't even need to rebase them - just have trays of the correct size.
At first that's what I thought too, but then he went on to state:

I think it would be cool to actually write new rules for WFB miniatures using the LotR SBG rules.

Glabro
16-04-2010, 18:34
Yes, I got the idea as well that he would like to use the WOTR rules for Warhammer figures, in a Warhammer setting.

It's a cool idea and surely the game can be easily modified to suit square bases - you don't have to use the slotted movement trays. As luck would have it, a tray of identical dimensions can accept eight 25mm based Warhammer miniatures. 20mm based miniatures have some extra space, but no big deal.

Monsters are the real issue, and would need to be compensated for having square bases instead of round to retain WOTR balance.

A nice idea, since yeah, many of the units are easy to convert. It's the points costs where the real balancing work would start. You shouldn't convert those. Also, you'd have to dig a bit deeper to the Warhammer lore to come up with Legendary units for all races...as well as hero-level named characters.

Like I said, a cool project and a new way of using the figures we already own. I'd support it if it kicked off.

The name? Err... WOTH, War of the Hammer?

ForgottenLore
16-04-2010, 21:15
I think the "creating new rules" part came from me asking him if that was what he wanted to do or if he was just looking for how to use the minis in a different rules set.

I got the impression from his answer that

a - he hadn't thought of doing a full blown rules conversion before I suggested it, but that it sounded like fun. and,

b - that he was talking about the Strategy Battles Game, at which point I lost interest

I too think a conversion of the Warhammer Fantasy armies to the WotR rules would be really cool. Unfortunately, while I am really good at rules design, I don't know the WFB armies well enough to undertake such a project myself.

Glabro
16-04-2010, 23:38
I do know the armies well enough and have access to all the army lists and stats. The playbalance of WOTR armies doesn't have to exactly mirror WHFB armies - for example, heavy magic is not going to work in nearly the same way.

It certainly is an exciting idea and very doable, it just needs quite a bit of work. The payoff is that you get to play essentially two games with one WHFB army, as WOTR is different enough to warrant co-existence: it's faster and more streamlined than WFB and emphasizes other things than WFB (though 8th edition hopefully fixes things more than a bit).

Points costs are not as hard to set (even without playtesting, to start with) because WOTR mostly uses a formula for costing, so troops only need a "designer's tweak" after applying the formula to arrive at the final cost.
It's also a chance for "living" army lists that are kept up to date and balanced so even if the WFB army in question is something like Orcs & Goblins, it is still (hopefully) balanced for WOTH.

I'll ask around and see whether anyone would be genuinely interested (around here) in playing such a thing.

Firmlog
16-04-2010, 23:44
actually the moria goblins would work better as ogre kindoms, the troll models aren't as trollish as warhammer fantasy, infact I've always felt they look more like ogres. Especially the heavy armor ones.

Lizardmen could pretty much be straight across haradrim. Saurus with hand weapons and or spears would be easterlings. skinks with poison bows the hadrim. Skinks with blowpips... well I don't know the name. a slann could be the king or queen though the king would not have magic. kroxigors could be the kings guards. Spitting lizards the arlebasters, and skinks with HW and shield would be the pirates with bucklers.

Bretonia would be Rohirim.

Empire I suppose could be gondor, though they really lack the magnitued of heavy armor troops and you'd have to loose all the good technology stuff.

Orcs and G would be Mordor list. though I suppose you could also do moria depending on build

and so on.

Glabro
17-04-2010, 00:02
Errr....I think we were talking about developing army lists and spells & such for the WOTR rules from the Warhammer armies, not trying to shoehorn Warhammer armies into existing LOTR armylists. Given that the existing armylists are broken in many cases as well, that's another reason not to.

In PC gaming circles you'd call it a "Total Conversion".

For example, here would be a statline for a formation of basic melee orcs:
M F S D A R C
6 3/5+ 4 5 8 1 3

Wargear: Hand weapons and armour
Shields +5
Spears +5

Note that there is a bit of variation added: Fantasy (and 40k) could do with a bit more differentiation and this is true in the orcs' case, to be honest they're worse shots than humans (not enough to warrant BS 2 which is very bad in the system), and they really have strength 3.5 in FB, and the Choppa rule represents that, but in WOTH they can be S4 without worries. The really tough S4 units in FB (like Ogres) would get S5 and so on.

Also note that WOTR effectively has, three levels of armour, the ones that grant 1 or 2 defense are called "armour" and the one that grants 3 is called "heavy armour". The orc here has the armour that grants 1 defense eg. light armour.
An easy rule of thumb is that sparse or leather armour grants 1 def, mail or scale usually grants 2, and plate armour / full mail grants 3.

Glabro
17-04-2010, 00:50
Oh, and another thing: the number of miniatures per base would be halved. Not sure if this should apply to cavalry, probably (as non-Bretonnian cavalry units are 5-6 strong, usually), but they might need "narrow edge of the movement tray to the front" basing like in Warmaster...
We can't expect Fantasy players to have the kind of numbers of miniatures that WOTR normally requires, and halving the required amount seems to be about right: 24 models for a full unit of six formations is right on the money for most "hordey" armies.

For infantry, this would mean that formations reduced from 4 to 1 model would retain 5 attacks. This is because formations break / lose cohesiveness etc. (there is no problem justifying this for any Fantasy race, as even undead and daemons have their own problems with instability) long before they lose their fighting strength completely.

So as we can see, some basic rules would need to be changed to make the game playable to Fantasy players without them requiring to double the size of their collections for this game (aka. impossibility)

ForgottenLore
17-04-2010, 01:14
I think this topic has become 2 topics.

One about simply using WFB minis with a LotRs rules (again, I think the original author was intending SBG)

And another about doing a total conversion of the WFB armies to the WotR rules

For the record, I would be totally interested in helping with such a conversion, but I would not be able to lead it. So as to not derail the OP's topic more than we already have, if people want to continue the discussion of WFB armies -> New WotR armies I suggest someone who is familiar with WFB start a new thread for that purpose.

fracas
17-04-2010, 03:21
@OP

you won't have to rebase your FB models if you play WotR. you will need new movement trays that is all.
would also be easier to use FB models as count as WotR units rather than translate the rules.

Glabro
17-04-2010, 11:44
Easier, but not nearly as much fun to play. The troops wouldn't be characteristic of the Warhammer World. Plus you'd have units that wouldn't fit, etc. etc... and as I said, the problems are that a) WOTR army lists are broken to an extent and b) would require excessive amounts of models without rules changes.

I'll start another topic.