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TheSanityAssassin
15-04-2010, 06:11
So I've finally started to stumble my way through the 8th edition rumours....I think the game can work fairly well under what they are showing, but I really fear for the way High Elves will function in this edition.

First: The ASF problem will seemingly want to become an issue with a lot of the combat rumours. Step up could be a mess....

Second, and more importantly, will they include some kind of alteration to the percentage system for them? They already broke it for 7th ed, and I really see the army becoming lowest of the low in WFB if they are held to 30% core, 25% special....

My own army is roughly.....20% core, 50% special....and it isn't even the worst balance I've seen...

nobsb
15-04-2010, 06:28
I think all these 8th Ed. rumours are bunk. I won't believe a complete overhaul is being done until I see it. GW is in the business to make money. Why would they make an unplayable game? When they released 7th people were mad. I never understood why, nothing horrible was wrong. Yes, they did hurt ogres with the ranking thing, but ogres are still a playable army. So a few things sucked, but overall 7th is fine. I think 8th will be the same.

I think the only reason 8th Ed. will come out is because GW wants more cash flow. New starter box equals more revenue. I guess we all be waiting to see.

Condottiere
15-04-2010, 07:40
On the surface, it seems that High Elves will get nerfed.

But the rumours are just short snippets from probably a hundred pages of rules, some which may have no alteration from the present set.

I doubt that the High Elves will drop out of the mid-tier, though they might find life more of a struggle.

R Man
15-04-2010, 08:58
The thing is. Basic infantry on basic infantry elves are not too bad off. At least as it is now. But some of their problems can be solved by list changes. Say, increasing their armour, or giving them some new units or redesigning bad ones.

Truth is, we will not know how HE will be affected by the 8th edition changes until someone actually plays with them under 8th edition rules.

Desert Rain
15-04-2010, 09:32
The rumours that we have at the moment implies that High Elves are getting a pretty big nerf. The finished product might imply something else but at the moment HE seems to get hit pretty hard with the nerfhammer.

For example,
ASF is going to be less powerful, something like an extra +2I in close combat.

Percentages in army construction, about 2/3 of our units are special. The list is designed around a different FoC than the other armies are.

The fight in two ranks rumour, we depend on killing our enemy before they kill us. That's why we have ASF but if they make the dead guys strike back the rule looses it's point and High Elven infantry will be as crappy as they were in 6th edition.

Armour saves being more important, well we hardly have an armour save so nothing in that rule for us.

Woodsman
15-04-2010, 09:47
I can't see tha HE won't be allowed a slightly different %chart if that comes into play. I mean they already have their own organisation so why wouldn't that continue? Then again I've played with upto 50% core, these rules will also serve to weaken some other armies.

+2I seems more realistic and still means most elves are going to go first except when being charged unless that changes as well ( I think it should, make charging +2I as well).

Finally, don't panic, don't panic (take spear elves - they do not like it up 'em sir, they don't, not like 'em fuzzy wuzzies) lets wait and see what turns up and then find some ways to make them playable.

Tekomandor
15-04-2010, 09:54
This is why we are getting a new book straight after 8th ed (Or so the rumors say)

Desert Rain
15-04-2010, 10:16
This is why we are getting a new book straight after 8th ed (Or so the rumors say)
That's not even a rumour, just a speculation. It makes a lot of sense for them to release a new High Elves book straight after 8th edition though.

CrystalSphere
15-04-2010, 10:20
If high elves are present in the starter set (as the rumours go) then it is very likely that we will be getting a new book not too late in that edition.

Bertolac
15-04-2010, 10:23
A new book for HE makes sense for several reasons:

1) They're heavily rumoured to be in the starter set and tradition has it that at least one of the starter armies is the first new book.
2) The rumoured % system screws with the High Elf list - mainly because of their lack of core options (I actually reckon Silver Helms and/or Reavers will head back into core).
3) ASF will be nerfed (and so I think High Elves will lose this army wide and gain something else).
4) High Elves have a large metal component that can be turned into plastic sets as part of a new release.

duffybear1988
15-04-2010, 10:53
I always thought the special high elves army chart was stupid - woodies and dark elves dont get the same silly chart so why do HE? Personally I would like to see the return of silver helms to CORE so that they actually become worthwhile again and all the models I have can see battle instead of collecting dust on a shelf.

Desert Rain
15-04-2010, 11:20
I always thought the special high elves army chart was stupid - woodies and dark elves dont get the same silly chart so why do HE?
Read the book, that will give you all the answers.

SeaSwift
15-04-2010, 11:49
I'm fine with the army book as it is - it is quite up to date (a lot more than many armies), not nearly so overpowered they get close to an auto-win (looking at you, DoC!), well-balanced with their nemesis the Dark Elves, and internally pretty well balanced - with the possible exception of Dragons, I find.

I would hate for them to get a new Army Book very soon, and so does my wallet. It would probably change the balance between the two nemeses, not add a great deal to the fluff, throw a load of the different tactics out of the window, and I really hope ASF stays - I love it!

One of the only properly well-balanced armies that it is very hard to find problems with in all of Warhammer, and it looks like GW's going to change them...typical.

Pessimism rate switched back down again.

Col. Dash
15-04-2010, 11:51
Nobsb- It wouldnt be the first time or even the second time, GW has screwed over its players and made all the previous army books null and void and released a Ravening Hordes type list with temporary armies for every race and then casually released new army books. Chaos Dwarves are still waiting for their army book from the change. It also isnt completely unknown for GW to flat out lie to its fan base about it either. This time they are taking the route of not saying anything at all.

Hannimar
15-04-2010, 11:55
I am also afraid of nerfing the HE. If there is no errata to the Armybooks, this will be tragic for the army. What worries me the most is not the core percantage (start using spearelves people! not just 2x10 archers, read the fluff how the armies look like!), but the 'step in' rule which renders initiative and ASF useless. The most fluffy combats between DE and HE will once again be a massacre for the DE with their everlasting hatred.

Remember, that unless the WS table is changed, elves will still be easy to hit, weak as glass and won't be able to kill enough enemy not to suffer casualties, which they cannot take. The balance between HE and DE should be kept as much as possible as they are one of the most epic pairings in the game.

I'll stay optimistic and believe in something like Ravening Hordes with errata for the current armybooks to update them to 8th edition, otherwise the fun battles against the Druchii will become extinct.

A positive aspect however is that with the max 25% on chars - people will stop using so often the darn Star Dragon Prince and if they use him, he will be alone or with a single mage. And good, finally some balance in this direction, because when you look at today's HE armies - they don't look like armies: a dragon, a mage circle, 2 small units of archers, a few cavalry units, 7 swordmasters, 2 chariots, eagles and RBTs... win win win! :D

logan054
15-04-2010, 14:22
I think all these 8th Ed. rumours are bunk. I won't believe a complete overhaul is being done until I see it. GW is in the business to make money. Why would they make an unplayable game? When they released 7th people were mad. I never understood why, nothing horrible was wrong. Yes, they did hurt ogres with the ranking thing, but ogres are still a playable army. So a few things sucked, but overall 7th is fine. I think 8th will be the same.

I think the only reason 8th Ed. will come out is because GW wants more cash flow. New starter box equals more revenue. I guess we all be waiting to see.

From what i have seen GW do complete overhauls every few editions, i dont know about 1st and 2nd ed however from what i have seen 4th ed was as different to 3rd as 6th was was 5th, much like 7th was a tweak of 6th, 5th was a tweak of 4th ed.

Personally i really hope that the WS charts of changed, i would love to see some drastic changes here making Ws as important as S and T, perhaps however the changes to save mods will help HE slightly?

gauly_13
15-04-2010, 14:29
I really dont think ASF will be worthless. From my understanding of the rumours (and thats all they are so far, lets not get carried away :) ), that if you kill the first two ranks, then you will recieve no attacks back?

In other words, one rank of ASF elves can kill one rank of whatever to avoid return hits, then 2 ranks of ASF elves can kill 2 ranks of whatever just as effectively! Brokeness fixed! :)

Condottiere
15-04-2010, 14:36
If striking order depends on Initiative, then ASF as a bonus will probably permit Elves in general to strike first against most troops, but High Elves in particular.

Ghal Maraz
15-04-2010, 14:39
From what i have seen GW do complete overhauls every few editions, i dont know about 1st and 2nd ed however from what i have seen 4th ed was as different to 3rd as 6th was was 5th, much like 7th was a tweak of 6th, 5th was a tweak of 4th ed.

Personally i really hope that the WS charts of changed, i would love to see some drastic changes here making Ws as important as S and T, perhaps however the changes to save mods will help HE slightly?

Well, in 1st edition a Dwarf was

Strenght 2
Toughness D

so, yes, there was quite a great transiction from 1st to 2nd!:D



3rd ed. was:

2nd ed. plus Ravening Hordes (the army list supplement fro 2nd edition, not the WD booklet of 6th)

plus a lot of reworking and amending (manouvering, psychology, characters...), all in one place

(plus some additions and tweakings in Warhammer Armies, the army list supplement for that edition).

Emeraldw
15-04-2010, 14:45
I really dont think ASF will be worthless. From my understanding of the rumours (and thats all they are so far, lets not get carried away :) ), that if you kill the first two ranks, then you will recieve no attacks back?

In other words, one rank of ASF elves can kill one rank of whatever to avoid return hits, then 2 ranks of ASF elves can kill 2 ranks of whatever just as effectively! Brokeness fixed! :)

My understanding of step up is that you cant wipe out the front 2 ranks without taking out so many as to wipe out the unit. Kind of like how kill zones left in 4th ed 40k. So the enemy will always get attacks and that is going to be painful for our elves, though with spears and martial prowess we might get 4 ranks on spearmen :D

I am kinda torn on it, a large part of me doesn't like the change but it may not be nearly as bad as I think it could be. Also, with these changes I see 0 reason why ASF needs to change. without the ability to reliably wipe out the front rank, many units become more competitive against elves already.

But the changes to percentages, the expensive elves (even for 7th), and the loss of a lot of ASF's power (which wasn't even that powerful to begin with) are going to hurt elves bad. What I liked about High Elves is going away and I am very seriously considering moving on to another army. Which, I don't know.

Woodsman
15-04-2010, 15:17
I am also afraid of nerfing the HE. If there is no errata to the Armybooks, this will be tragic for the army. What worries me the most is not the core percantage (start using spearelves people! not just 2x10 archers, read the fluff how the armies look like!), but the 'step in' rule which renders initiative and ASF useless. The most fluffy combats between DE and HE will once again be a massacre for the DE with their everlasting hatred.

Remember, that unless the WS table is changed, elves will still be easy to hit, weak as glass and won't be able to kill enough enemy not to suffer casualties, which they cannot take. The balance between HE and DE should be kept as much as possible as they are one of the most epic pairings in the game.

I'll stay optimistic and believe in something like Ravening Hordes with errata for the current armybooks to update them to 8th edition, otherwise the fun battles against the Druchii will become extinct.

A positive aspect however is that with the max 25% on chars - people will stop using so often the darn Star Dragon Prince and if they use him, he will be alone or with a single mage. And good, finally some balance in this direction, because when you look at today's HE armies - they don't look like armies: a dragon, a mage circle, 2 small units of archers, a few cavalry units, 7 swordmasters, 2 chariots, eagles and RBTs... win win win! :D

Yeah. What he said.

Helfs don't need another army book. After OK, TK, Welfs and Brets then maybe; otherwise you're just pi~$ing on players that collect these armies from a great height. We'll just have to adjust maybe see more durable units - PGWL should be able to take the two rank rule and even increase their own impact.

Necromancer2
15-04-2010, 15:35
I agree with the above.. they aren't really getting nerfed.. but so will DE & Vamps & Lizardmen. TK will stink unless they are completely different.

Skaven will rule the game once more! :)

SeaSwift
15-04-2010, 17:04
If the 8th rules nerf them, just errata them to make them better - army books are part about fluff (fine), part about rules (not fine if nerfed) and part about models (if new models are added, it is good to represent these in the army book)(fine). Oh, and to GW, they're all about profit.

My point is, the models are fine (exception being Eltharion, I hate that model!), the fluff is fine (but more information on Cothique!), it is just the rules that will need updating if the new edition nerfs them. That is 1/3 reasons to update them. Not enough, especially compared to Ogre Kindgoms, Tomb Kings, Bretonnians etc.

And GW won't make any more profit updating HE than they will TK in my opinion.

enyoss
15-04-2010, 17:23
... What worries me the most is not the core percantage (start using spearelves people! not just 2x10 archers, read the fluff how the armies look like!)

< snippety snip >

And good, finally some balance in this direction, because when you look at today's HE armies - they don't look like armies: a dragon, a mage circle, 2 small units of archers, a few cavalry units, 7 swordmasters, 2 chariots, eagles and RBTs... win win win! :D

Finally, a kindred spirit! I've more or less given up commenting on Army Lists with Star Dragons and the minimum 2x10 archers, as all I end up saying is `take more spearmen' or similar (although there was a nice list in there the other day with the S.D and archer core minimum which somehow managed to be characterful with his special choices).

As for High Elves getting a whack with the nerf hammer, well, I'll wait to see what happens. If it does happen, at least it will happen to the army equally across the board, so shouldn't bodge the internal balance, which is one of the triumphs of the 7th edition book in my opinion. Also, with these rumours of a distinction between heavy cavalry and medium cavalry, maybe silverhelms will have a roll once again?

JayC707
15-04-2010, 18:38
I'm excited and nervous all at once.

It could go a number of ways, so it's hard to know what to think or expect.

What I can say is that I have very little confidence in GW as they seem very late to react to errata things and produce new books, etc. So, to assume that HE is getting a book with 8th or soon after sounds a bit like...well... a bit ignorant to be honest. Who do you think you're dealing with here? Wizards of the Coast? I think not... this company is pretty 1/2 ass to be honest and it's amazing that we have what we have but don't expect much more.

Time will tell...

Desert Rain
15-04-2010, 18:42
I know that I will stay with my high elves even if they are nerfed so hard that they are the worst army in the game. I like them to much to give them up for anything.

Regarding a new book it is a pretty good possibility, though I wouldn't get my hopes all high about it.

TheSanityAssassin
15-04-2010, 18:45
The one thing the ASF changes will make me happy about is HE vs. HE games....there will actually be a tactical reasoning behind who hits first. Nothing annoys me more than "swordsmasters charge spearelves, now roll a dice to see who butchers the other unit first!"

I do say I am kind of content that my own army build is in less of a hurty place than many, as I have a big unit of Spears and my main block is 24 Phoenix Guard, which really don't even need ASF to function....

sliganian
15-04-2010, 19:14
Finally, a kindred spirit! I've more or less given up commenting on Army Lists with Star Dragons and the minimum 2x10 archers, as all I end up saying is `take more spearmen' or similar (although there was a nice list in there the other day with the S.D and archer core minimum which somehow managed to be characterful with his special choices).


I haven't played them in far too long, but I am also one of those 'freaks' who whose typical core would be 3x20 blocks of SpearElves and 1x16 Archers (with a Musician). Lord/Heroes were nothing special, maybe a Prince on a Horse at most.

Looking forward to whatever 8th brings and hopefully it will incent my friends to dust off the movement trays as well. :)

Desert Rain
15-04-2010, 19:23
I used to take 2 x 20 spears and 10 archers as core, but since everyone else is running so powerful lists it was just not good enough. My "dream army" has 2 x 20 spears (or 2 x 24) and 2 x 10 archers as core. So hopefully I will be able to run that in 8th edition. Perhaps magic will change so an archmage wouldn't be as necessary as I feel they are today. Then I would take a Prince, BSB amd 2 x lvl 2 as characters.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see but things are looking a bit bleak for us powerwise.

Woodsman
15-04-2010, 21:37
I have played with two spear blocks two archer wings, shadow warriors and archmage. Sure you lose as often as you win, but most of the fun is in the chase, learning how to ues what you've chosen to overcome a player with a stronger list.

At tourney's its a different matter, but, I imagine comp systems will still attempt to even the field.

Razhem
15-04-2010, 22:53
Just saying that people are ********ting themselves if they believe the rules changes won't carry a huge tier swing with them, I wouldn't be surprised at all that High Elves dropped to low tier.

JayC707
15-04-2010, 23:02
Just saying that people are ********ting themselves if they believe the rules changes won't carry a huge tier swing with them, I wouldn't be surprised at all that High Elves dropped to low tier.

I fear you may be right, and hope that you are wrong...HE was my first army, invested ALOT into them now with pro painting, etc. only to have them be complete ****? :(

brendel
16-04-2010, 00:05
I'm not that worried about the rumours, I will await untill they become fact before start to think about 8th ed, It might not be as bad as some might think....

Col. Dash
16-04-2010, 00:10
Welcome to the GW leap frog choo choo!

Invisible Sun
16-04-2010, 00:41
If they drop ASF, then they should reduce the cost for Spearmen. That, and maybe a new aerial unit, like Giant Eagle Riders or something.

Possibly cheaper, core Silverhelms. I do like the models; it would be nice to have a reason to buy more. :)

Lord Anathir
16-04-2010, 00:47
as a 7 year high elf player Im lovin the rumours. I think all you kids should learn to use spears instead of flying around super dooper dragons like any blind monkey. dont be lazy.

enyoss
16-04-2010, 01:19
Just saying that people are ********ting themselves if they believe the rules changes won't carry a huge tier swing with them, I wouldn't be surprised at all that High Elves dropped to low tier.

Yeah, but my point is: who cares? :D We've been there before through most of 6th edition (at least, those of us who didn't spam silverhelms were there), but this time we have nice internal balance, a great default spell in High Magic, no 0-1 restrictions, and no stupid rules like Intrigue at Court (which crippled both your leadership and your only stubborn unit). We might even get archers firing in two ranks, which would really be spoiling us.

Silver linings my friend :).

EDIT: All the above said in the nicest way... we're all High Elfers here afterall :)

Emeraldw
16-04-2010, 02:07
as a 7 year high elf player Im lovin the rumours. I think all you kids should learn to use spears instead of flying around super dooper dragons like any blind monkey. dont be lazy.

Alright, I am going to assume you aren't indicating that all of us are dragon spammers and even if we were, none of the concerns raised in this thread have nothing to do with dragons or cavalry, but infantry.

Why do you love the rumors? I see little here that really makes High elves stand out in a positive manner, especially the infantry.

Condottiere
16-04-2010, 02:36
Hard to believe GW would invest the time and resources to prematurely launch a new edition of High Elves, considering how many others need an update, since getting any Army Book to publication seems to be equivalent of persuading a rooster to lay an egg.

silashand
16-04-2010, 03:19
I personally wouldn't worry about it. We've only heard snippets and frankly, it's just as likely the new wording of ASF will fix the problem. I wouldn't doubt it if the ASF rule negated the "stepping up" idea. In fact, I would be surprised if it doesn't simply because if not the rule becomes relatively useless.

I will wait till we have an actual rulebook to look at before I start moaning and complaining. Though I have to confess, the more I think about it, the more I am looking forward to 8th edition simply because it is supposedly different. JMO though...


Hard to believe GW would invest the time and resources to prematurely launch a new edition of High Elves, considering how many others need an update, since getting any Army Book to publication seems to be equivalent of persuading a rooster to lay an egg.

Personally, just based on past experience I'd say the odds of at least a new HE book are pretty decent. It is entirely possible they feel they goofed it badly enough to fix some of the problems with it. Just a hunch though and I could easily be wrong.

Cheers, Gary

Lord Anathir
16-04-2010, 11:51
Alright, I am going to assume you aren't indicating that all of us are dragon spammers and even if we were, none of the concerns raised in this thread have nothing to do with dragons or cavalry, but infantry.

Why do you love the rumors? I see little here that really makes High elves stand out in a positive manner, especially the infantry.

They're fantastic. Core is becoming more important and our lists are going to be looking like actual armies. Shooting in 2 ranks is massive, especially for the LSG, and couple that with only core being able to claim most objectives and you will have a mainly core army backed up by a few elites.

Col. Dash
16-04-2010, 11:59
Even if the rule is true, it doesnt make ASF useless. Sure the second rank steps up and fights, if you kill enough of the first and have overkill into the second you still arent going to have a ton of shots into you as only one rank is going to fight back as opposed to us slower armies that when charged will still have to deal with both enemy ranks. Your spears will fight in three ranks!

I havent heard the shooting in two ranks part. That sounds cool, I wont have to line my archers up across the board in a line anymore.

SeaSwift
16-04-2010, 13:26
actually if it's just fighting in two ranks and not removing casualties from the back HE spearmen will fight in 4 ranks... but that still doesn't compensate for having to kill so much of the enemy just to survive... and ASF is supposed to be nerfed anyway.

Not looking good for everyone's favourite clad-in-mithril pointy-ears.

JayC707
16-04-2010, 19:26
They're fantastic. Core is becoming more important and our lists are going to be looking like actual armies. Shooting in 2 ranks is massive, especially for the LSG, and couple that with only core being able to claim most objectives and you will have a mainly core army backed up by a few elites.

LSG will be much more useful if this is the case, that I agree with.

Emeraldw
16-04-2010, 21:19
They're fantastic. Core is becoming more important and our lists are going to be looking like actual armies. Shooting in 2 ranks is massive, especially for the LSG, and couple that with only core being able to claim most objectives and you will have a mainly core army backed up by a few elites.

Everything you just said only reinforces my fear for 8th ed. Our Core sucks and are overcosted.

I usually don't talk in such absolutes but unless its something like goblins, my spearmen just die. I take a block because 2 10 man archer squads is clearly gaming the system.

Even with that, it isn't 500 points of core, so I will probably need another block...of useless spearmen or spam archers. Lothern Seaguard will be better, but not by a whole lot. for 2 more points I could have bought a special unit and you still need to combine them back into a 5x4 block to take advantage of SCR. Though 20 bow shots for a turn doesn't sound so bad, assuming ASF doesn't change too much.

I just don't have a good feeling about High Elves Infantry in 8th.

Desert Rain
16-04-2010, 22:13
They're fantastic. Core is becoming more important and our lists are going to be looking like actual armies. Shooting in 2 ranks is massive, especially for the LSG, and couple that with only core being able to claim most objectives and you will have a mainly core army backed up by a few elites.
The problem is that our core isn't that good compared to most other units in the game. If we are forced to rely almost exclusively on our core units we're going down in the bottom tier powerwise.

Lord Shadowheart
16-04-2010, 22:26
Teclis is going be screwed significantly if the thing about Irrisistables having a downside is true (or he will if I'm using him, I tend to roll silly amounts of doubles), same with the Book of Hoeth.

TheSanityAssassin
17-04-2010, 05:57
Yeah....the core focus really scares me, as some armies can have brutally powerful core (Warriors of Chaos, Empire or Bretonnian Knights, any big Undead blocks), where others find their core just....sadly lacking...and High Elves are at the top of that list.

enyoss
18-04-2010, 20:01
This is why we are getting a new book straight after 8th ed (Or so the rumors say)

Just thought I'd point out the news from GW that, in Spain at least, the 7th edition High Elves book is being updated to inches (from cm) and errated soon after the release of 8th (probably to include some of the FAQ issues like Teclis not being a Mage etc.). So I wouldn't hold your breath for 8th edition High Elves :).

On the bright side, the naysayers might want to take solace that this implies High Elves aren't irretrievably broken by the transition to 8th :D.

SeaSwift
18-04-2010, 20:08
...Or GW doesn't care about their balance of power with HE (any more?). If the new Rulebook will benefit OK/TK (who are supposed to be getting a new book AT SOME POINT anyway), then they will accept that HE will swap down to the bottom tier.

wamphyri101
18-04-2010, 20:20
I really doubt that they are going to screw an army they are trying to push a core game with. GW are not that stupid.

Lets just see what they actually do in July.

Emeraldw
18-04-2010, 20:26
I really doubt that they are going to screw an army they are trying to push a core game with. GW are not that stupid.

Lets just see what they actually do in July.

Tell that to Necrons?

High Elves will go down in power, but not be useless is all we are implying. My gripe is that what I liked about High elves is going away. Oh well, live and learn.

selone
19-04-2010, 01:17
Yeah....the core focus really scares me, as some armies can have brutally powerful core (Warriors of Chaos, Empire or Bretonnian Knights, any big Undead blocks), where others find their core just....sadly lacking...and High Elves are at the top of that list.

Bretonnia, check. WOC yep. Empire.. say what?

Volker the Mad Fiddler
19-04-2010, 04:11
I don't understand most of the concerns to be honest. My HE now features 3 blocks of 25 spearelves at 2250 points [plus 2 units of 10 archers] and does fine. Put more of a focus on core in the other armies and this will just get better as spearmen are more than a match for most armies core. Celtic elves huzzah!

Punjoke
19-04-2010, 04:17
Not only is HE core some of THE worst (besides skeletons) but there are a whopping TWO models to choose from (three units, one of them just being spears with bows.) Boy that sure sounds like a lot of fun, I can't wait for every High Elf army to look the same.

Kalandros
19-04-2010, 04:34
High Elves have only one choice, a basic warrior.
Then you decide its equipment:

Spear, light armor, shield
longbow, maybe light armor
or the whole kit spear, light armor, shield and a normal bow.

So really, their 3 choices are simply 1 choice.
Bad design, very bad design, they wanted to make it unique by focusing on the Special troops, but they neglected the core too much.

Thats why I got rid of my high elves and went dark ;D

mrjellybeans
19-04-2010, 04:35
Not only is HE core some of THE worst (besides skeletons) but there are a whopping TWO models to choose from (three units, one of them just being spears with bows.) Boy that sure sounds like a lot of fun, I can't wait for every High Elf army to look the same.

I think its more like one option, the High elf warrior. You just get to choose longbow, spear, or bow and spear.

Punjoke
19-04-2010, 05:01
I think its more like one option, the High elf warrior. You just get to choose longbow, spear, or bow and spear.

True. I guess I was trying not to be completely pessimistic. But yeah, High Elf have to have the worst/most boring core of any army.

Null_Sheen
19-04-2010, 05:12
I believe the % actually are

Characters 25% Maximum
Core 25% Minimum
Specials 50% Maximum
Rare 15% Maximum.

That should give you more room for your specials.

Also don't you have some core chariots?

limkopi
19-04-2010, 05:14
Except Necrons. (Who have only 1 Troop choice - Necron Warrior. The only variable is the number of models you want.)

Trains_Get_Robbed
19-04-2010, 05:30
My first and only army! (:'( I just bought you 2 months ago :() So not only is H.E going to the bottom tier, bye-bye ASF -which is pretty uselss for me anyways- GW is forcing me to essentially pick upgrades on a single H.E warrior and overpriced upgardes at that, and making it half my army?! How awesome. :/ Yeah varied core now we'll all look the same!

Two HE players meet in store:
*Where's your army from?
*Caledor. How about yours?
*Tiranoc.
Audience* Whats the difference? The color?
*Yup. (sametime)

I already play a spear block every game, thats where I put my mage to cast shield of saph on things or curse arw att (the former spell has been included alot latley anyone else notoce that? BA codex, T.K rumors etc. . .) and due guard duty of RBT and Archers, don't penalize us more!

As for Dragon spamming, I have yet to play a dragon. I would also bet many others rarley use dragons outside Tourneys and the only time would be in "funnziez" agreed prior to match or agianst power lists.

Well, so much for lil' Jimmy buying his starter set box and wanting ot play H.E, they will just play the new power creep army: SKAVEN!!! :D

TheSanityAssassin
19-04-2010, 06:18
Bretonnia, check. WOC yep. Empire.. say what?

Not that they're exactly brutal, but core 1+ save Knights say yes to me.....
Or Core unbreakable Flagellants....

Memnos
19-04-2010, 06:53
Well, the High Elf army will still do fine under the new rules. It's just the metagame will change.

Now, you're going to want to whittle down numbers long before they get combat: Ellyrion Reavers, Repeater Bolt Throwers, Mages.

The Fire Mages will still be big, simply because they can hit from the side. However, whittling down numbers will be vital to winning combat.

Null_Sheen
19-04-2010, 07:03
My first and only army! (:'( I just bought you 2 months ago :() So not only is H.E going to the bottom tier, bye-bye ASF -which is pretty uselss for me anyways- GW is forcing me to essentially pick upgrades on a single H.E warrior and overpriced upgardes at that, and making it half my army?! How awesome. :/ Yeah varied core now we'll all look the same!

Two HE players meet in store:
*Where's your army from?
*Caledor. How about yours?
*Tiranoc.
Audience* Whats the difference? The color?
*Yup. (sametime)

I already play a spear block every game, thats where I put my mage to cast shield of saph on things or curse arw att (the former spell has been included alot latley anyone else notoce that? BA codex, T.K rumors etc. . .) and due guard duty of RBT and Archers, don't penalize us more!

As for Dragon spamming, I have yet to play a dragon. I would also bet many others rarley use dragons outside Tourneys and the only time would be in "funnziez" agreed prior to match or agianst power lists.

Well, so much for lil' Jimmy buying his starter set box and wanting ot play H.E, they will just play the new power creep army: SKAVEN!!! :D

Over reaction much?
Core is 25% minimum, now i know that its been a long time since i was in school but im fairly sure that a fair bit less than over half your army. I could be wrong though.

Condottiere
19-04-2010, 07:59
Lothern Sea Guard has such potential for flexibility, if it weren't for their cost. If they could shoot in three ranks, they'd probably be near perfect.

sorberec
19-04-2010, 08:28
Also don't you have some core chariots?

I wish... We have 3 core choices and they're all basically a High Elf warrior with different equipment.

Desert Rain
19-04-2010, 08:51
While our core choices are a bit boring one can always hope that the 8th edition army book moves some specials into the core section, for example Silver Helms and Shadow Warriors, to give us some more variety.

But with 50% available to special units I don't think we will get hit so hard as it seemed initially.

CaptainFaramir
19-04-2010, 09:31
What is wrong with you people?

In a rather dull telephone conference I just threw together a rather adequate HE list, 2 x 20 Spears, 1 x 10 Archers, 14 SM, 14 WL, 7 Shadow Ws and 5 Reavers, 3 x 3BT + 500 in characters (prob, Khoril, Cary and a BSB depending on exact points). Lots of MR, lots of attacks, adequate missile support, no spells. Bargain. Fun. Effectively, all the points I am no longer allowed for my 25% max characters (previously c.800 total), I have transfered to a block of spear elves. Less magic, 20 more Elves (and that's 15A).

No ASF? Don't know where this rumour has been confirmed? Step-up? Not a problem my old china.

14 S5 attacks, vs. anything makes a mess. And if you think Skaven are going to rule, with "step up", then would you mind awfully if I take 3 x 14 Swordmasters, some dragon princes and 3 Bolt Throwers. If more two skaven infantry models gets an attack back for 14 WS6 S5 hits then its purely down to very bad dice. (14*2/3*5/6 = rat sausages for tea). In fact, even a Spearelf unit fares well, 15*WS4, S3 still takes down 4-5 of the furry little bastards.

As for the bell, furnace, HPA or Doomwheels excuse me while I skewer the **** out of the large target hit on a 2+ mofos. And at 25% chracters, 15% rare you only get two. Max. Two doomwheels? Skewer. Bell OR furnace (and virtually no other characters)? SM in the flank having raped the flanking slave units/ogres/rat packs. HPA - double team with my ASF SMs. On a chariot base you say? 24 S5 attacks you say, ASF, you say, only one fireball wound required not to ressurect you say?

So thats three mages with fire, 40 spearelves, 10 archers, 3 RBT, 42 Swordmasters, 6 DPs and a whole heap of dead rats. Nae bother. High Elves nerfed. Come back to me in August. I'll design you a High Elf list that, like Jagermeister, will literally blow your cock off.

acsmedic
19-04-2010, 15:00
What I would love to see is that ASF vs ASF with same Init who goes first would go to the unit that charged not a dice off. (and then whoever won the previous round of combat making dice rolloff only for tied round)

I hate the Black Guard death star that everyone in my meta runs. I can always get a multi charge, but it doesnt matter most of the time... now if I go first cause I get the charge then I can consistently beat the BG down.

King_Pash
20-04-2010, 09:53
What is wrong with you people?

In a rather dull telephone conference I just threw together a rather adequate HE list, 2 x 20 Spears, 1 x 10 Archers, 14 SM, 14 WL, 7 Shadow Ws and 5 Reavers, 3 x 3BT + 500 in characters (prob, Khoril, Cary and a BSB depending on exact points). Lots of MR, lots of attacks, adequate missile support, no spells. Bargain. Fun. Effectively, all the points I am no longer allowed for my 25% max characters (previously c.800 total), I have transfered to a block of spear elves. Less magic, 20 more Elves (and that's 15A).

No ASF? Don't know where this rumour has been confirmed? Step-up? Not a problem my old china.

14 S5 attacks, vs. anything makes a mess. And if you think Skaven are going to rule, with "step up", then would you mind awfully if I take 3 x 14 Swordmasters, some dragon princes and 3 Bolt Throwers. If more two skaven infantry models gets an attack back for 14 WS6 S5 hits then its purely down to very bad dice. (14*2/3*5/6 = rat sausages for tea). In fact, even a Spearelf unit fares well, 15*WS4, S3 still takes down 4-5 of the furry little bastards.

As for the bell, furnace, HPA or Doomwheels excuse me while I skewer the **** out of the large target hit on a 2+ mofos. And at 25% chracters, 15% rare you only get two. Max. Two doomwheels? Skewer. Bell OR furnace (and virtually no other characters)? SM in the flank having raped the flanking slave units/ogres/rat packs. HPA - double team with my ASF SMs. On a chariot base you say? 24 S5 attacks you say, ASF, you say, only one fireball wound required not to ressurect you say?

So thats three mages with fire, 40 spearelves, 10 archers, 3 RBT, 42 Swordmasters, 6 DPs and a whole heap of dead rats. Nae bother. High Elves nerfed. Come back to me in August. I'll design you a High Elf list that, like Jagermeister, will literally blow your cock off.


I lol'd when I read this. Totally agree with you though! :D

Garion
20-04-2010, 09:59
I lol'd when I read this. Totally agree with you though! :D

Me too. Everyone stop getting so worried about the new rules they are coming and lets be optimistic they might be great. Everyone is complaining about them and they havenít even seen them yet.

People should stop saying there army is going to be ruined coz they cant have as many characters etc. etc. blah blah, but it is the same for everyone and we donít even know if this is true yet.

Everyone should be happy the rules are changing because they are currently very broken. I have confidence that these new rules will be a good thing and so should everyone else.

wamphyri101
20-04-2010, 11:29
I'm kinda looking forward to 8th Ed. Means a stop to:

2 bloody hydras and a black dragon
lvl 4 mage with 3 lvl 2's with bounds
2 steam tanks + war alter
multiple steggadons/ancients
multiple treemen
greater daemon with full character support
tzeentch flying circus

The game has become based on "Multiple heavy characters supported by minimum units" rather than armies of warriors with a few heroic leaders.

Col. Dash
20-04-2010, 14:13
It definately will cut down on monstrous mounts and perhaps will bring an edition of medium mounts.

enyoss
20-04-2010, 17:44
While our core choices are a bit boring one can always hope that the 8th edition army book moves some specials into the core section, for example Silver Helms and Shadow Warriors, to give us some more variety.


The quality of our core isn't an issue (all three are absolutely fine, especially spearmen), but I'll agree that variety is a bit of an issue.

The problem is that silverhelms had to be moved from core as there was universal outcry at players filling out their core slots with them. So we partly have them to thank for being stuffed now. Personally, I think it would have been best if silverhelms had stayed in core but had been limited by the number of spearmen units you had. Then though, I bet the same players would have taken 90 point buyouts of spearmen just so they could spam the silverhelms :rolleyes:.

Ender Shadowkin
20-04-2010, 18:05
The quality of our core isn't an issue (all three are absolutely fine, especially spearmen), but I'll agree that variety is a bit of an issue.

The problem is that silverhelms had to be moved from core as there was universal outcry at players filling out their core slots with them. So we partly have them to thank for being stuffed now. Personally, I think it would have been best if silverhelms had stayed in core but had been limited by the number of spearmen units you had. Then though, I bet the same players would have taken 90 point buyouts of spearmen just so they could spam the silverhelms :rolleyes:.

I have a feeling SH might get put back to core in the next edition. I don't think they will need to be worrying about all cav HE armies in the 8th, with boosts to bigger blocks, bow fire in 2 ranks, and scenariors requiring foot sodiers with banners to capture scenarios..

enyoss
20-04-2010, 18:30
I have a feeling SH might get put back to core in the next edition. I don't think they will need to be worrying about all cav HE armies in the 8th, with boosts to bigger blocks, bow fire in 2 ranks, and scenariors requiring foot sodiers with banners to capture scenarios..

I think you might be right. Still, I think a one-per-unit-of-spearmen/seaguard restriction would be a good thing. The rumours of heavy cavalry being unable to march might give silverhelms a boost too though (although I have no idea how credible this rumour is). They would then perform a completely different role to dragon princes and reavers, being able to nip around flanks yet still deliver a lance charge.

Desert Rain
20-04-2010, 18:37
Silver Helms could stay in special if they get access to magical standard and perhaps WS5 and Dragon Princes moves to rare and gets some boost. I'd prefer Silver Helms in the core slot though, possibly with some rule preventing all cavalry armies since I think that most of us agree that High Elves are supposed to be an infantry army.

Oh, and optional barding instead of shields would give them a slightly different role than DPs and ERs.

enyoss
20-04-2010, 18:48
Silver Helms could stay in special if they get access to magical standard and perhaps WS5 and Dragon Princes moves to rare and gets some boost. I'd prefer Silver Helms in the core slot though, possibly with some rule preventing all cavalry armies since I think that most of us agree that High Elves are supposed to be an infantry army.

Oh, and optional barding instead of shields would give them a slightly different role than DPs and ERs.

Every last bit of that a winner :). Keeping them in special doesn't solve the problem of monotonous core, although I would love for them to get their old WS5 back again. The barding issue might not be such a problem if Dragon Princes are stuck with no march moves though. We'll just have to wait an see I suppose.

Desert Rain
20-04-2010, 19:55
If Silver Helms stay in special, DPs go to rare Ellyrian Reavers should probably move to core, them or shadow warriors.

Ender Shadowkin
20-04-2010, 20:14
My first and only army! (:'( I just bought you 2 months ago :() So not only is H.E going to the bottom tier, bye-bye ASF -which is pretty uselss for me anyways- GW is forcing me to essentially pick upgrades on a single H.E warrior and overpriced upgardes at that, and making it half my army?! How awesome. :/ Yeah varied core now we'll all look the same!

Two HE players meet in store:
*Where's your army from?
*Caledor. How about yours?
*Tiranoc.
Audience* Whats the difference? The color?
*Yup. (sametime)

:D

Clearly you've never played against an 8 chariot + star dragon list before as I have ;-)

I tend to see a lot of variability in which specials HE's use. Its just that they are so expensive there is only a unit or two, and the rest of the armies all look alike:

2 units 10 archers/seaguard, 2 RBTs, 1-2 Eagles. Then the specials are either DPs (Calidor), shadow warriors (Nagaryth), Chariots (Tiranic), White Lions (Chrace), Phoenix Guard (paranoid I hate VC/DC guy) or Swordmasters (Just started playing HE guy).


If Silver Helms stay in special, DPs go to rare Ellyrian Reavers should probably move to core, them or shadow warriors.

Well I would like that, as I would then field reavers. I think silver helms would have to drop in points for me to take them. For me it has nothing to do with SH being special, I never fill up my slots. Just can't squeeze them in. I used to have them as a nice throway unit to track down warmachines, flankers and such. But since they stopped helping with my core, can't find the points when I can just add another eagle.

SeaSwift
20-04-2010, 20:39
Personally I usually max on RBTs rather than getting Eagles, I just take a ChickenHawk Noble instead (Lance, Reaver Bow, Great Eagle etc.). He can hit hard-ish, is ultra-manouverable, shoots damn well, and is great for taking down war machines and some weak flankers. Plus I love the conversion model. He just dies easily to magic, which should be solved soon, if 8th is going to tone down magic-heavy armies.