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Comrade Penguin
15-04-2010, 19:21
One noticeable difference between the fluff and the gameplay of 40k is the lack of civilian noncombatants. Everyone fights in vacant cities and abandoned towns, but the fluff often depicts these battles raging on with terrified civilians running all around. I was thinking it would be cool if GW released a box of plastic imperial citizens that are running, screaming, cowering, whatever. These civilians would act as "mobile cover," meaning they form a squad that randomly moves about the map and both player's units will be able to claim cover if the opponent is firing through them. This startled mob could move 2d6" in a random direction at the end of both players' movement phases, thus creating a fun random effect that essentially changes the makeup of the board every turn. Also, for every cover save that is successfully made one of the civilians is hit and removed from play. GW could make some awesome scenarios where you either have to capture/kill all of the civilians in the city or defend them.

Is this too dark and mature for 40k? Considering the fluff and models for armies like chaos, tyranids, and dark eldar I don't think the idea of imperial civilians would be too dark for the average gamer.

I know GW probably wil never make rules for civi's, but I would for them to make some models that I could write my own rules for.

What do you guys think?

Tenken
15-04-2010, 19:22
I approve of this idea.

Mannimarco
15-04-2010, 19:24
Agreed although it would make the game pretty complicated with all these random non combatants running around, cover saves would become even more common than they already are, seriosuly I cant remember the last time my guard took an armour save

The Laughing God
15-04-2010, 19:26
That's a really cool idea, but it would be pretty funny to see double 1's a few times. :D

Griffindale
15-04-2010, 19:27
lol and I would have to immediately make a chaos army with civilians strapped to all my tanks armor plates. O the hilarity of being evil.

bigcheese76
15-04-2010, 19:27
I love the idea. Next game I play in city terrain, I will have to make the suggestion we proxy some models, mabey some Empire Flagellents.

Comrade Penguin
15-04-2010, 19:35
Glad you guys like it... had to make sure I wasn't the only evil one on these boards :angel:

@Mannimarco

Yeah it would throw more cover saves around, but you have to remember that those civilians are moving at the end of your movement phase. So you don't know where they will end up. Maybe they will stay in front of you giving you a cover save, or maybe they block your charge. Who knows what or where the ravenous mob will do next. Mmm I'm getting pictures of my chaos army rampaging through a city slaughtering all in their path :evilgrin:

shagrath
15-04-2010, 19:35
ol and I would have to immediately make a chaos army with civilians strapped to all my tanks armor plates. O the hilarity of being evil.

would sig if I could

Irbian
15-04-2010, 19:36
lol and I would have to immediately make a chaos army with civilians strapped to all my tanks armor plates. O the hilarity of being evil.

Why need to be chaos? I will kill them and I am a GK collector.

...

Ok, maybe I should play chaos :D

spetswalshe
15-04-2010, 19:38
Models-wise, civilians for both 40k and Warhammer would be very welcome - as would all sorts of other things.

It's a nice idea for scenarios - it's feisable for every army to want to ensure the survival of non-combatants (usually in order to capture and experiment on them), as well as for every army to want to kill everything. However, I wouldn't want them to give a cover save - unless they're in huge numbers it seems unlikely.

However, little Timmy's mother might well become concerned if, rather than guiding his armoured spacemen to kill ork-aliens, it turns out he's learning how to funnel unarmed combatants into killzones and block off potential avenues of escape. Bringing out a Space Hulk-esque game based on the Modern Warfare 2 Moscow airport level would also be frowned upon.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
15-04-2010, 19:45
Why need to be chaos? I will kill them and I am a GK collector.

...

Ok, maybe I should play chaos :D

As far as civilians are concerned, the only different between Chaos and GK is who has the shinier armor, and whether they kill you during the battle or after the battle.

Citizensmith
15-04-2010, 19:45
There are a few manufacturers that make decent civilian figures. Two or three squads of 10 and scattering each turn would be great. The cover save mechanic (if they cause it some die) would be good, as well as any that drift into units automatically get killed

Comrade Penguin
15-04-2010, 20:01
There are a few manufacturers that make decent civilian figures. Two or three squads of 10 and scattering each turn would be great. The cover save mechanic (if they cause it some die) would be good, as well as any that drift into units automatically get killed

Two or three squads of ten was exactly the number I had in mind, although I may make them have to be in 1" coherency to give it that bunched together frightened mass feel. Then I would bump the number up to 15-20.

Any idea what companies produce these civilian minis and are they in our scale? If they are nice I would just buy them and use my own home brewed rules in my city.

Heretic'sPaintbrush
15-04-2010, 20:20
It wouldn't be too hard to sneak down to the Warhammer range and kitbash some. Just from reading 40k fiction, most of the Imperial mass wears loose fitting robes and otherwise "antiquity-looking" garb.

xerxeshavelock
15-04-2010, 20:23
The Journal had a superb article called Assault on Precinct X which has Marine Scouts hiding in just such groups. Although the background was a bit suspect I highly recommend the article to anyone who likes scenario gaming.

Hero adamite
15-04-2010, 20:36
Sounds like an interesting idea that would be fun to use in a game.

Mannimarco
15-04-2010, 20:40
Could even be used in a couple of custom missions: the good guys trying to rescue the poor civillians and the more evil races trying to capture/kill them.

Revelations
15-04-2010, 20:42
Could even be used in a couple of custom missions: the good guys trying to rescue the poor civillians and the more evil races trying to capture/kill them.
There isn't an army in 40K that I know of that wouldn't ruthlessly slaughter civilians for one reason or another.

Mannimarco
15-04-2010, 20:49
They'd all slaughter civillians but its the role of the good guys to at least try and protect them, wasnt the whole point of the imperial guard during the Medusa campaign to hold out and give people time to evacuate?

not to get into a debate about who is good and who is evil in 40k as its been done to death but you know who I mean

GitzBlasta
15-04-2010, 20:52
You could give them a stat line and say you can shoot at them or even assault them to clear them out the way. Also, would be more amusing for them to count as difficult terrain if they bump into one of your squads. I like the idea of Marines wading through a mob of screaming civilians! The civilians could take D3 casualties for being moved through, as they get shoved aside, bayonetted for convenience or trampled underfoot.

Hells, this could be amazing!

They could inadvertantly set of any minefields they walk through too!

Trothael
15-04-2010, 20:53
GW ran a campaign a while back that involved civillians. The crux was that it was a 'Nids vs Marines campaign, every time the 'Nids won more cillivians would become corrupted by Genestealer cults.

Certain cities or buildings would have civilians running around or hiding on the board. They could be enemies, objectives, nuisances, bonuses etc etc

'Twas a fun campaign.

MadHatter
15-04-2010, 20:54
However, little Timmy's mother might well become concerned if, rather than guiding his armoured spacemen to kill ork-aliens, it turns out he's learning how to funnel unarmed combatants into killzones and block off potential avenues of escape. Bringing out a Space Hulk-esque game based on the Modern Warfare 2 Moscow airport level would also be frowned upon.


I will say this nicely; I do not care about little timmy's mom or Little Timmy. I am not playing my hobby for them. MY demonettes look horrible now because of little timmy's mom and little timmy. I would however be semi respectful of his mom by not playing with little timmy if this custom mission bothers her.

@ Comrade Penguin,

this is one of the best ideas for a city of deaths custom mission. I could see this also in a large apoc game with dozens of these units. just have everyone help move them.

Mordheim had some cool mini's and i am sure we can find some poor civilians in work jump suit some where.

Monospot
15-04-2010, 21:12
If you go back to Rogue Trader days, there were Imperial Citizen miniatures...sometimes, civvies show up on Ebay.

Phelix
15-04-2010, 21:20
Honestly even if you ignore the rules for mobile cover I would love too see a civilian plastic set, they could work as objectives etc.

Would also like to see

A) Imperial Citizens, Government Officials (yes these can be easily made with Imperial Guard Officers but still), Pilots, Scum etc.

B) Eldar "civilians" essentially eldar in non-combat dress (Im not sure but if the Eldar fluff is anything like High Elves from fantasy then they are all soldiers, but more like an extremely elite Militia than full-time soldiers)

C) Tau Earth, Air & Water Castes

D) Dark Eldar Slaves (multiple races)

E) Chaos "Sacrifices" (modified boxed set of the imperial citizens, & comes with a "holding pen" terrain)

F) Civilian vehicles

G) Grot slaves & Squigs

but yeah

Devil Tree
15-04-2010, 21:23
While it's an interesting idea, I can't see it working very well. Once the shooting starts those civilians that aren't already dead or hiding in their cellars, would immediately scatter in all directions and go to ground. At most it would provide a couple of cover saves the first turn.

Besides that, what do you think mommy and daddy will do when they find out that little Timmy is gleefully gunning down women and children? And you know that's the first thing little Timmy is going to do. Anyways, it's a headache that the GW legal department would rather do without.

The Ginger Ninja
15-04-2010, 22:14
This is a brilliant idea, probably the best idea I have heard this month (hobby related)


Honestly even if you ignore the rules for mobile cover I would love too see a civilian plastic set, they could work as objectives etc.

Would also like to see

A) Imperial Citizens, Government Officials (yes these can be easily made with Imperial Guard Officers but still), Pilots, Scum etc.

B) Eldar "civilians" essentially eldar in non-combat dress (Im not sure but if the Eldar fluff is anything like High Elves from fantasy then they are all soldiers, but more like an extremely elite Militia than full-time soldiers)

C) Tau Earth, Air & Water Castes

D) Dark Eldar Slaves (multiple races)

E) Chaos "Sacrifices" (modified boxed set of the imperial citizens, & comes with a "holding pen" terrain)

F) Civilian vehicles

G) Grot slaves & Squigs

but yeah

Im looking at forgeworld, anyone know of a way to contact them with suggestions?



would sig if I could
Why not?

Purge the Heretic
15-04-2010, 22:16
Fun for a scenario or two, tedious for the rest of it.

Thanks for the contribution however, may use it at some point in a narrative campaign I'd like to start.

Speaking of which, does anyone else remember a collection of campaign rules that allowed you to level units as they stayed alive in battle, was this something fan made I'm remembering or an official GW product...Im thinking it might have even been my 3rd edition rulebook...I'll have to look?

Comrade Penguin
15-04-2010, 22:26
Fun for a scenario or two, tedious for the rest of it.

Thanks for the contribution however, may use it at some point in a narrative campaign I'd like to start.

Yeah it would be a little much in every game, but it could be fun for a scenario every now and then. At the very least it would be nice to get some noncombatants from GW if only for objectives/dioramas and then people could houserule them at their leisure.

I don't think people would scatter because they tend to flock together in big groups when running away in panic. BTW I got the idea from one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels (I think it is Necropolis), where civilians are running in a big mass away from the chaos advance. The chaos and guard had to fight in and around the civilians.

Timmy's mom would be mortified, and that is why I asked if it is too dark for 40k. Honestly though I don't really care what the moms think because this is a mature game with a complex ruleset and a very dark background. I know GW has been trying to rope in the kids lately but that won't deter me from splattering my nids in blood or covering my chaos in severed limbs :angel:

chromedog
15-04-2010, 22:33
Only if they bring back human bombs and media crews too.

Civilians, warzones, fanatics wearing explosives and idiots with cameras.

Hmm, a little too close to reality maybe.

Axel
15-04-2010, 23:02
... wasnt the whole point of the imperial guard during the Medusa campaign to hold out and give people time to evacuate?

Nope, the point was to keep production up as long as possible, and get all the resources off planet. Civilian evacuation was just given as a reason to make the guards fight better.

I would very much welcome a civilian kit, as long as these do not show up to be more expensive then the many existing metal ranges.

tezdal
15-04-2010, 23:05
Great, my Black Templars have been waiting for rebel citizens to decimate, No Pity!

the_gobbo_king
15-04-2010, 23:11
Honestly even if you ignore the rules for mobile cover I would love too see a civilian plastic set, they could work as objectives etc.

Would also like to see

A) Imperial Citizens, Government Officials (yes these can be easily made with Imperial Guard Officers but still), Pilots, Scum etc.

B) Eldar "civilians" essentially eldar in non-combat dress (Im not sure but if the Eldar fluff is anything like High Elves from fantasy then they are all soldiers, but more like an extremely elite Militia than full-time soldiers)

C) Tau Earth, Air & Water Castes

D) Dark Eldar Slaves (multiple races)

E) Chaos "Sacrifices" (modified boxed set of the imperial citizens, & comes with a "holding pen" terrain)

F) Civilian vehicles

G) Grot slaves & Squigs

but yeah

D: Dark Eldar Prisoners (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620095&prodId=prod1110275)

E: Flagellants?
F: STC's for some Imperial veichles were tractors and such.
G: These guys (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620126&prodId=prod1110185) and these guys (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620126&prodId=prod1110184) and these guys (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620226&prodId=prod1110248) and those guys (without weapons) (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620122&prodId=prod1130277)

TGK

world in grey
15-04-2010, 23:44
Stuff little timmy and his up tight mummy. I say have big groups of them all over the board and use them as victory points never mind killing each others armys have small hunting parties say 1 or 2 squads each and the winner is the person who kills/hunts/captures the most civilians! sort of man hunt/running man style thing

Olja
15-04-2010, 23:46
In Chain Reaction they have rules for non combatants. Sometimes the run in a random direction sometimes they cower. I think if they randomly move into a unit the civilians are destroyed, but the unit counts as moving (mess up any heavys trying to shot) and that unit can't run or fleet.

If any unit makes a cover save caused by a civilian, the civilian is removed. If a unit intentionally moves into contact with civilians, it stops moving and cannot run, shoot or assualt. But it can kill as many civilians in base to base contact as it wants. :evilgrin:

IcedAnimals
16-04-2010, 00:11
I often use the dark eldar slaves as tokens. And one of the members in our gaming group has a bunch of none GW models of regular dressed people that we use as objectives. And we have actually set them up once as a great huge group of them as terrain where every successful cover save killed one.

We weren't trying to save or kill them though so both factions just blazed away. We did get the idea to have one team try to keep some alive but we never actually played it.

The Ginger Ninja
16-04-2010, 02:07
Been thinking about it, and if they ever release adeptus arbites (sp?) they could put the rules in there.
Using the as objectives with random movement could be quite evil I mean fun

Chem-Dog
16-04-2010, 02:53
Most of my battles take place where there aren't any/many civillians, it's assumed that they've all cleared out of the way as they see my enemies trundling towards them, are dead or have already successfully been evacuated.
I could imagine a Marine bursting through a wall on route to an objective to find several filthy humans huddling for safety, offer a brief salute and utter a heroic word or two before carrying on to battle with whatever it is the civillians are hiding from.
Of course, they could be hiding from the Marine....


I suppose Civillians could be an interesting variation on standard games.
Either awarding additional KP's to the "attacker" (possibly a pain as they are unlikely to be any better than an IG Conscript stats wise) or representing a moving objective (that can be killed) although, to be honest, the normal "objectives" could easily represent Civillians, as a building containing lots of civillians would a useful objective to most races in 40K one way or another.

Perhaps it's something that could be added to CoD as that's in need of an update by now. Models representing the populace of the city moving around providing cover for unscrupulous players or even springing a surpise as they tun out to be resistance fighters/militia. Civillians could actually represent a whole raft of new specific stratagems, that would certainly be as worthy of a boxed set as any the ruined building kits we got with CoD or the stuff that accompanied Planetstrike, relatively simple models to make (Gretchin a case in point, 1 or 2 peice models).

Here's the kind of Idea I'm talking about....

Civilian Mob
One Civillian mob for every 500 points (or part thereof) in the largest army.
2D6 models.
Ws2 Bs2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv- Special rules. Move through Cover. Stealth.

At the beginning of each Game turn players dice off for control of each civillian Mob on the board. Each player counts Civillians he is currently controlling as his own unit for the duration of that game turn (with the notable exception of shooting, a player may opt to shoot Civillians wether he is currently controlling them or not), Civillians may move in any way the controlling player sees fit and may opt to go to ground or run in the appropriate situations. Civillian Mobs may not charge and are not considered to be armed with any ranged weaponry. Shooting through Civillian squads always confers a cover save, regardless of who's currently controlling them.

Civillian Stratagems.
Refugee Camp: You've located an area of the city where many of it's displaced people are now gathering.
The normal number of Civillian mobs included in this game is increased by D3, in addition each Mob consists of 3D6 models.

Collaborators: This sector of the city is home to a number of opperatives in your employ, wether loyal to your cause or somehow bewitched into your service they will turn on those who oppose you. Revealed at the start of any game turn when rolling for control of Civilian Mobs. Pick a single Mob, roll for control as normal, if you gain control of this Mob it will effectively join your army for the rest of the game, it's stats and rules will stay the same but it will be allowed to assault and will count as being armed with a Laspistol and CCW. Of course if you reveal the squad's alleigance and lose the rolloff for control, the Mob is very likely to do something that will shorten it's life expectancy dramatically. This may only be played on a single Mob.

Moving cover: You are unconcerned by the welfare of these pathetic creatures and are willing to use them to the maximum advantage. One unit held in reserve may use a Civillian mob as it's entry point when it enters play, the unit has moved within the civillian mob who were too scared of betraying their presence or even unaware of it. The mob is removed as it scatters or is destroyed as your unit reveals itself. The revealed unit may move and act as normal in this turn.

Comrade Penguin
16-04-2010, 03:08
Here's the kind of Idea I'm talking about....

Civilian Mob
One Civillian mob for every 500 points (or part thereof) in the largest army.
2D6 models.
Ws2 Bs2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv- Special rules. Move through Cover. Stealth.

At the beginning of each Game turn players dice off for control of each civillian Mob on the board. Each player counts Civillians he is currently controlling as his own unit for the duration of that game turn (with the notable exception of shooting, a player may opt to shoot Civillians wether he is currently controlling them or not), Civillians may move in any way the controlling player sees fit and may opt to go to ground or run in the appropriate situations. Civillian Mobs may not charge and are not considered to be armed with any ranged weaponry. Shooting through Civillian squads always confers a cover save, regardless of who's currently controlling them.

Civillian Stratagems.
Refugee Camp: You've located an area of the city where many of it's displaced people are now gathering.
The normal number of Civillian mobs included in this game is increased by D3, in addition each Mob consists of 3D6 models.

Collaborators: This sector of the city is home to a number of opperatives in your employ, wether loyal to your cause or somehow bewitched into your service they will turn on those who oppose you. Revealed at the start of any game turn when rolling for control of Civilian Mobs. Pick a single Mob, roll for control as normal, if you gain control of this Mob it will effectively join your army for the rest of the game, it's stats and rules will stay the same but it will be allowed to assault and will count as being armed with a Laspistol and CCW. Of course if you reveal the squad's alleigance and lose the rolloff for control, the Mob is very likely to do something that will shorten it's life expectancy dramatically. This may only be played on a single Mob.

Moving cover: You are unconcerned by the welfare of these pathetic creatures and are willing to use them to the maximum advantage. One unit held in reserve may use a Civillian mob as it's entry point when it enters play, the unit has moved within the civillian mob who were too scared of betraying their presence or even unaware of it. The mob is removed as it scatters or is destroyed as your unit reveals itself. The revealed unit may move and act as normal in this turn.

I like these ideas, especially the one where your reserves come in through a civilian mob. This just positively drips with 40k flavor and is yet another reason why GW needs to release some civilians. I think it would really add another dimension to the game and would provide for some awesome story lines in campaigns.

Someone mentioned camera crews earlier, although I think he was saying it may being inappropriate. Personally I would love camera crews... maybe with rules that they have to try and stay as close as possible to the action to get the "story." Is anybody else picturing that scene from starship troopers where the reporter and camera guy get mauled by some arachnids? Now imagine that same scene with guardsmen and tyranids :evilgrin:

Plastic Rat
16-04-2010, 04:20
As far as civilians are concerned, the only different between Chaos and GK is who has the shinier armor, and whether they kill you during the battle or after the battle.

Where is everyone getting this from? I haven't found anything about Grey Knights doing this in any of the novels, or the DH codex. All I know of is one ill-conceived Apocalypse formation. What am I missing?



There isn't an army in 40K that I know of that wouldn't ruthlessly slaughter civilians for one reason or another.

Salamanders.
Tau.


Honestly in today's political climate I doubt GW would ever release something like this. Same reason I believe they've never released female imperial guard in commercially viable numbers. It's just too sensitive a topic and not worth the headaches.

I would still love a set of Imperial civilians that I could use as objectives/dioramas or in scenarios.

vladsimpaler
16-04-2010, 04:23
I can't believe that someone just asked if something was TOO dark for 40k.

Gosh darnit, just give me back my human bombs and imperial space marines being psycho serial killers. :cries:

Born Again
16-04-2010, 04:55
It wouldn't be too hard to convert your own, or find suitable models from another games company. As for rules, it sounds like OP has already done it: as long as your opponent agrees, I don't see anything wrong with cover that moves randomly each turn. Sounds like fun, might give it a go myself.

daboarder
16-04-2010, 05:18
I had a Scenario where one player controlled 3x10 squads of civvies pluss his own troops and had to get them off the board against an opponent with half again the points limit on the game. ie: 1500 pts opponent gets 2250pts. They had a statline of 2's with 6+ save and one attack, most people used to argue over getting to be the attacker. I have to admit there is not much more fun than dropping a flamer template on a bunch of "non-combatants".

MadHatter
16-04-2010, 07:58
Fun for a scenario or two, tedious for the rest of it.

Thanks for the contribution however, may use it at some point in a narrative campaign I'd like to start.

Speaking of which, does anyone else remember a collection of campaign rules that allowed you to level units as they stayed alive in battle, was this something fan made I'm remembering or an official GW product...Im thinking it might have even been my 3rd edition rulebook...I'll have to look?

yes it was in the third edition book.

Zweischneid
16-04-2010, 08:10
Is this too dark and mature for 40k? Considering the fluff and models for armies like chaos, tyranids, and dark eldar I don't think the idea of imperial civilians would be too dark for the average gamer.

I know GW probably wil never make rules for civi's, but I would for them to make some models that I could write my own rules for.

What do you guys think?


Tyranids are all civilians. They're just shopping for food.

Plastic Rat
16-04-2010, 08:25
Tyranids are all civilians. They're just shopping for food.

Civilians who try to eat you are no longer civilians. I'm sure it says that somewhere in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer.

world in grey
16-04-2010, 08:32
Tyranids are all civilians. They're just shopping for food.

so all the guard need to do next time they're sent in to deal with nids isn't take lots of tanks but just point them in the direction of the local kwiki mart and give them all a basket to fill

Wolf Lord Balrog
16-04-2010, 10:21
Civilians who try to eat you are no longer civilians. I'm sure it says that somewhere in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer.

I'd sig that if I could. :)

ehlijen
16-04-2010, 10:38
Where is everyone getting this from? I haven't found anything about Grey Knights doing this in any of the novels, or the DH codex. All I know of is one ill-conceived Apocalypse formation. What am I missing?



I think it's mostly the story/retcon of the first war of armageddon that was released in the WD about the time the deamon hunters came out. Summary is thus:
Deamons invade armageddon. Space wolves try to help. Guard and space wolves are almost overrun. Grey knights show up, kick ass and die in droves but win. Grey knights decide to save the planet/make the retcon more plausible, everyone who saw a deamon needed to be executed. That was about half of the planet give or take. Logan gets angry and snarls at the grand master, then leaves.

As to all the 'stuff timmy and his mum' shouting: Remember that little timmy's mum has the media's ear. That is a deadly weapon, especially in the hands of the un or ill informed. GW does not want those problems.

That said, I'd like civilian sets, if nothing else, they'd bring a breath of fresh air into necromunda, inquisitor maybe and dark heresy. Maybe not as a 40k release but as a necromunda one? That might be enough layers of obscurity to evade timmy's mum?

Tokugawa100
16-04-2010, 11:32
Its an excellent idea and could make for some interesting gameplay.

Im all for it, especially if I get to be the Dark Eldar, plucking the innocent victims from the streets, even going out of my way to dodge combat with the armed warriors of the enemy to take out the weak and the defenceless:evilgrin:

MWA HA HA HA HA:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

"cough"

or I could be the marines and save them.:angel:

Oh and Phelix, Eldar civilians are always on the table, they are Guardians and Storm Guardians, Im pretty sure military service is mandatory in Eldar society as it also keeps them busy.

Aiwass
16-04-2010, 12:05
Nice idea thought. Instead of scattering, would be more sense that they have an "instinctt rule" like 'nids.

1D6 - Action

1-2 - Retreat!
3-4 - Cover
5-6 - To the ground!

Retreat: The civilian mob starts to run 1D6" in the opposite direction to the nearest unit.

Cover: The mob starts to fall back 1D6" to the the nearest terrain element. If any enemy unit near of the terrain element, the mob runs to the nearest edge of the table. EDIT FOR RAW MANIACS: If they are already in cover, they must to take a Ld test, if fails they feel that his hideout is unsafe and must to search another cover place!

To the Ground!: Self-explanatory. The mob goes to the ground to save his lives from the incoming fire!

EDIT: And this...


Here's the kind of Idea I'm talking about....

Civilian Mob
One Civillian mob for every 500 points (or part thereof) in the largest army.
2D6 models.
Ws2 Bs2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv- Special rules. Move through Cover. Stealth.


Civilian mobs are deployed like infiltrator units by both players, one each one until all mobs are deployed, before any player deploy his own troops and infiltrators.

x-esiv-4c
16-04-2010, 12:09
I like the idea to be honest.

technotemplar
16-04-2010, 15:52
If you tank shock a civvie group there is a chance they imm the tank, as they get stuck in the treads ><

Good idea though, although would my Raging death company have to charge civilians if they are in range? That could make for some awkward battle reports haha

Sai-Lauren
16-04-2010, 16:30
I approve of this idea.

Agreed, there's plenty of possible scenario ideas (refugee evacuation, dark eldar slave raids), and it would certainly tell you a lot about your opponent if they started hiding their troops in them or dropping barrage weapons onto them.

However, at the 40k scale, it's highly likely that most civilians would have either evacuated the area before the battle (and they certainly wouldn't run around randomly during the battle, they'd be heading for the nearest table edge or terrain feature to look for safety) or be hiding.



Any idea what companies produce these civilian minis and are they in our scale? If they are nice I would just buy them and use my own home brewed rules in my city.

Hasslefree has some in 28mm. Although they're more of a medieval/fantasy period than modern/futuristic.

GZG has some at a true 25mm.



As to all the 'stuff timmy and his mum' shouting: Remember that little timmy's mum has the media's ear. That is a deadly weapon, especially in the hands of the un or ill informed. GW does not want those problems.

I remember the "all role-players are satanists" stuff from the mid-80s. I certainly don't want to go back to those days.

Best way to get these would be for GW to get back to the Lost and the Damned - those civilians could start off as cultists.

Although the biggest technical issue would be people painting them up rather than more exciting figures for their armies.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
16-04-2010, 16:36
I'd sig that if I could. :)

Hell, I'm going to. :) That's great.

Mr Zoat
16-04-2010, 17:09
I think it's mostly the story/retcon of the first war of armageddon that was released in the WD about the time the deamon hunters came out. Summary is thus:
Deamons invade armageddon. Space wolves try to help. Guard and space wolves are almost overrun. Grey knights show up, kick ass and die in droves but win. Grey knights decide to save the planet/make the retcon more plausible, everyone who saw a deamon needed to be executed. That was about half of the planet give or take. Logan gets angry and snarls at the grand master, then leaves.


Not sure where that came from. The version I remember from the Battle for Armageddon cardboard game and 2nd edition Codex Space Wolves has it being an Administratum decision.

Lord Malorne
16-04-2010, 17:18
I like the thought of having civilian models, but not the idea of using them as moving cover.

IvanTih
16-04-2010, 17:21
Nice idea,but there is a small chance that GW will ever release that.

Hrw-Amen
16-04-2010, 18:43
I remember making some civilians for my WFB empire army when I was into that. I put them together from Empire Militia. Blood Bowl; they have most races as cheerleaders, refs and so on. Even a female dwarf which could be interesting for those who want Squats back. I also did some conversions from the Sisters of Sigmar range from the Mordhiem (Is that spelt right?) game. Again they have all manner of potential civilians even children.

I can't imagine it would be too hard to convert some to W40K. They may have to look a little bedraggled and tatty, but then if they have been living in ruins as shown in Cities of Death etc, I am sure that they would look that way after a few weeks anyway.

But I do agree that all races that have non combatants need to be represented, eldar, tau and so on. Don't FW make some Tau air cast? Maybe Eldar civilians could be converted from wood elfs? How about some orks sat around darning socks or other everyday things. I think the Blood Bowl has a female Orc cheerleader, which whilst not fitting in with the W40K fluff could make for some interesting conversion in a pain boy unit!! Or Necrons; it may sound daft, but I imagine they have a version of tech-priests that look after all that Necron equipment. They can't all be tombspiders as no doubt there are some small holes that they just will not fit in.

Now I feel the need to go and model some female Orks lead by a crazed pain boy held captive by a female guard regiment for a few weeks before he escaped!!

Ironmonger
16-04-2010, 19:06
I like the thought of having civilian models, but not the idea of using them as moving cover.

See, and I LOVE the idea of having 'moving cover.' It's all over the news since news started covering wars: civilians getting 'in the way.':eyebrows:

This is a great idea, TBH. Now I'm gonna have to scour ebay/bits box and see what I can find. Honoured Imperium/Imperial Sector/Imperial Civilians...:evilgrin:

Balerion
16-04-2010, 19:59
I don't think people would scatter because they tend to flock together in big groups when running away in panic. BTW I got the idea from one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels (I think it is Necropolis), where civilians are running in a big mass away from the chaos advance. The chaos and guard had to fight in and around the civilians.


Uhh, only in cartoons. Or 40K novels, which are the prose equivalents of cartoons. ;)

I'm too enslaved by reality to enjoy this idea. Most civilians would have already been evacuated from any area in which fighting is occurring. Any unfortunate enough to have remained behind would be cowering in basements and shelters, not running through the streets dodging shrapnel, warp lightning, electromagnetic ninja stars, and ballistic beetles.

The vast majority of 40K maps don't evoke civilian settings, either. I'm sure it's possible with the right CoD terrain, but most generic CoD setups wouldn't work. Just look at the CoD kits -- they're administrative buildings, factories, and churches, not hab-blocks.

Olja
16-04-2010, 20:10
You have to remember Eldar and Tau would have civilians too. Orks have Gretchins and Snotlings, if they get killed the Orks would just be amused. I don't want to think about what passes for Dark Eldar civilians. And, of course, all the Squat civilians are dead.

Eldoriath
16-04-2010, 20:29
Sounds like a great idea, think I'll have to try and use it in an apocalypse game, having some bunches of civvies running around =)

Mordagos
16-04-2010, 21:05
A nice thought in civilians by the uplifting primer
"There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush."

Voss
16-04-2010, 21:09
Could even be used in a couple of custom missions: the good guys trying to rescue the poor civillians and the more evil races trying to capture/kill them.

Right. Unfortunately that leaves no one to do the rescuing. Possibly eldar, though more out of 'our race is dying' rather than goodness. Tau might do it, but might not- 'The Greater Good' can be a terribly hardcore philosophy with a really big bodycount.

Honestly, the reason you don't really see this on the table top is its an extra level of complication thats more of a pain than not. Mostly it just slows the game down.

Lord Inquisitor
16-04-2010, 21:22
A decent boxed set of civilians would be incredible. Adepts, maybe some mechanicus types, servitors, women and even children - would be fantastic. The modelling opportunities would be immense. I'd sure as heck buy a kit or two if done well just for the models alone.

That said, it's been a long time GW has released anything that wasn't directly tied to an army list. I guess a mission supplement could work, but that still seems unlikely to fuel a whole plastic kit. So really one would need to look for a niche... Enslavers+civilians is one possibility, or alpha psyker. You know what would be cool though - how about a plastic kit that allows you to make a unit of chaos cultists or a mob of frightened citizens? It doesn't even need to be for a putative LatD codex, it would be easy to make a "generic cultist" entry for C:CSM (much like in Dawn of War). Or, if you want to really start dreaming, such a box could be the core of a genestealer cult...

Comrade Penguin
16-04-2010, 21:30
Right. Unfortunately that leaves no one to do the rescuing. Possibly eldar, though more out of 'our race is dying' rather than goodness. Tau might do it, but might not- 'The Greater Good' can be a terribly hardcore philosophy with a really big bodycount.

Honestly, the reason you don't really see this on the table top is its an extra level of complication thats more of a pain than not. Mostly it just slows the game down.

I have to disagree here. The rules I came up with are pretty streamlined (no statlines, no special civilian abilities or rules). They are treated literally as mobile cover. The only additional rules are that they move randomly and are removed from play whenever a successful cover save is made. I didn't want to make it much more complex than this because it would definitely slow the game down too much. But I still think that the lack of civilians represents a chasm between fluff and actual gameplay. Especially in missions like planet strike, where the defender may be caught off guard and civilians would be caught in the middle of the sudden battle. Both sides can use/exploit the civilians to their benefit, and I can see even the classic "good guys" sacrificing noncombatants if it leads to their ultimate victory.

The Orange
16-04-2010, 22:09
I've thought of a similar idea however it's definitely way to dark for GW to put something out like that. Some people may not care about little Timmy or his mom, but it's in GWs best interest too. That said, I could almost see GW putting out a kit of Imperial Citizens, the only problem is it's not really something people require so I don't see it as that big a seller, and if it's hard enough to get people to paint their armies what luck to a bunch of Imperial Citizens have of showing up fully built and painted.

DeeKay
17-04-2010, 01:06
GW does grimdark, having civvies that could get wasted is real dark, and GW is afraid of the impact it could have on the kids!

I believe that the Joker from the Dark Knight said it best when he said "nobody panics when everything goes to plan, even when that plan is horrifying." However, I could go for a box of civvies simply for conversion ideas. There's a thought. Would people actually go for kits specifically designed to be converted? I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with some of the stuff they have out there but, something of a blank slate model perhaps?

With regards,
Dan.

Havock
17-04-2010, 01:39
Moving cover: You are unconcerned by the welfare of these pathetic creatures and are willing to use them to the maximum advantage. One unit held in reserve may use a Civillian mob as it's entry point when it enters play, the unit has moved within the civillian mob who were too scared of betraying their presence or even unaware of it. The mob is removed as it scatters or is destroyed as your unit reveals itself. The revealed unit may move and act as normal in this turn.

Suddenly... Baneblades.

Condottiere
18-04-2010, 03:42
Considering the speed of modern warfare, it wouldn't surprise anyone if civilians got caught up in a firefight; considering the callousness of the setting, getting shot by mistake or just out of hand shouldn't surprise anyone.

Havock
18-04-2010, 04:53
Except that it would be politically incorrect to make them obvious and possible targets. Of course, it is perfectly fine to behead combatants by the thousands (see also: Kharn) but civvies are a big no-no. It's GW, remember? It can't be that grimdark. ;)

Voss
18-04-2010, 05:20
I have to disagree here. The rules I came up with are pretty streamlined (no statlines, no special civilian abilities or rules). They are treated literally as mobile cover. The only additional rules are that they move randomly and are removed from play whenever a successful cover save is made.

Thats exactly what I mean, though. Randomly moving mobile cover adds more time than I want to spend to each turn. Heck, I don't even want to bother with small blast templates most of the time. The awkwardness of the scatter rules adds too little to the game to compensate for the PITA factor.
Effectively scattering terrain pieces every turn is way more than I want to deal with.

Bookwrak
18-04-2010, 06:35
Uhh, only in cartoons. Or 40K novels, which are the prose equivalents of cartoons. ;)
In the novel's defense, IIRC in the scene he's talking about, the Chaos advance had just made an unexpected, rapid penetration deep into the besieged hive city, which would be one of the few situations in which you would legitimately have stampedes of civilians.

Anyway, at it's core, it's really not a good idea. One issue is verisimilitude - random mobs of people running around an active battle-zone just doesn't work. In real life, when non-combatants find themselves in the middle of a warzone, they try to find the deepest hole possible and stay there until the loud noises stop. You will find individuals or small groups darting from point to point trying to find such a place, but you're not going to get wandering mobs (and to head off the inevitable internet smart guy who's going to try and chortle, 'Realism, in 40K?' Verisimilitude, look it up).

Second is I'm just not seeing what's fun about this. It's a wandering piece of cover that at its core adds nothing of interest to the game. All it does is complicates the game without adding anything of value. Now, custom missions that work a civilian element into the mission rules somehow would be great.

The whole tangent about 'little Timmy' is a brainless strawman, and doesn't need to be addressed.

Comrade Penguin
19-04-2010, 02:29
Except that it would be politically incorrect to make them obvious and possible targets. Of course, it is perfectly fine to behead combatants by the thousands (see also: Kharn) but civvies are a big no-no. It's GW, remember? It can't be that grimdark. ;)

The thing is that civilians are targeted all the time in the fluff. Chaos target them as sacrifices, DE capture them for slaves, tyranids eat them, orks don't care who it is they are chopping up, and the imperium casually sacrifices its own civilians on a regular basis. It may be politically incorrect but that is the game and setting that GW has decided to create. Besides there are plenty of other video/strategy/role-playing games that incorporate far more taboo topics.

senorcardgage
19-04-2010, 04:03
In the novel's defense, IIRC in the scene he's talking about, the Chaos advance had just made an unexpected, rapid penetration deep into the...

Woah woah woah, what kind of books are you reading?!?! :p

Citizensmith
19-04-2010, 04:13
Woah woah woah, what kind of books are you reading?!?! :p

Yeah, not sure erotic fanfic really qualifies as official. Funny, at least Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar always show up alot. Strange they never end up doing much fighting though.

Grimbad
19-04-2010, 05:34
Except that it would be politically incorrect to make them obvious and possible targets. Of course, it is perfectly fine to behead combatants by the thousands (see also: Kharn) but civvies are a big no-no. It's GW, remember? It can't be that grimdark. ;)

The Imperial Guard codex has Krieg and Mordians both slaughtering innocents to make points, the Death Korps by bombarding surrendering hives and the Mordians by killing every tenth person to punish the planet for its weakness.

Political correctness went out the window when medical abomination child soldiers showed up.

Logarithm Udgaur
19-04-2010, 06:09
Speaking of which, does anyone else remember a collection of campaign rules that allowed you to level units as they stayed alive in battle, was this something fan made I'm remembering or an official GW product...Im thinking it might have even been my 3rd edition rulebook...I'll have to look?

The 4thEd rulebook has something like that at the end.

Bassik
19-04-2010, 06:13
I remember the "all role-players are satanists" stuff from the mid-80s. I certainly don't want to go back to those days.


I do:D I was once the harbringer of the Devil, now people just see me as a weird guy who plays with other recluses and talks to dogs :p

Lord Malorne
19-04-2010, 10:57
Odd, that's how I view satanists ;).

Havock
21-04-2010, 11:43
The Imperial Guard codex has Krieg and Mordians both slaughtering innocents to make points, the Death Korps by bombarding surrendering hives and the Mordians by killing every tenth person to punish the planet for its weakness.

Political correctness went out the window when medical abomination child soldiers showed up.

Yes, and referencing them in the stories to point out how exceptionally grimdark the setting is is one thing, actively allowing players to play a game of "hutu's vs tutsi's" is another.

Don't get me wrong, I would think mobs of civilians could be hilarious.
Tank shock.
Cluster mines from biker scouts.

Only problem is that it should not penalize armies whilst boosting others.
See imperial guard who have to cope with another form of cover for his opponent whilst his ork opponent has moving cover and a way to get to the guard player faster (ie. charging the civvies)

Petay1985
21-04-2010, 12:03
civillians incorated in a scenario, providing it is carefully planned, works fine as does simply using civillians as a themed objective, in fact it can be a nice way of bringing some 'realism' (if you'll excuse the use of the word) to a game.

for example a marines vs dark eldar, objectives are to free x number of prisoners from cages. ok thats a bit lame but you get the idea...

Aiwass
21-04-2010, 14:19
Anyway, at it's core, it's really not a good idea. One issue is verisimilitude - random mobs of people running around an active battle-zone just doesn't work. In real life, when non-combatants find themselves in the middle of a warzone, they try to find the deepest hole possible and stay there until the loud noises stop. You will find individuals or small groups darting from point to point trying to find such a place, but you're not going to get wandering mobs (and to head off the inevitable internet smart guy who's going to try and chortle, 'Realism, in 40K?' Verisimilitude, look it up).

Palestine FTW? Lebanon? Vietnam? Bosnia? Uganda? In what world do you live?

Not only mobs, a LOT of civilians are runing away in the middle of the firefights.

xerxeshavelock
21-04-2010, 15:14
Don't forget a lot of the negative focus of Call of Duty 6 was on the level that lets you kill civillians. It was likely the difference between a BBFC 18 rating and the less severe Pegi 16 that COD 4 got. Even though you saw in the first game civillian atrocities the difference is being able to act them out yourself.

If GW were to hae them in any way I suggest they would be as abstracted as possible - such as BFG civillian ships.

Bunnahabhain
21-04-2010, 16:51
I'm wondering about the Guard getting a Chimera to a group of civilians, and gaining a group of conscripts....

Fight for you lives scum! This hand goes here, this hand goes here, and you point it at the enemy! The Emperor will protect you!

melloxmatt
26-04-2010, 18:04
im sorry but im going to have to steal this idea this is awesome im making these omg your a genius

Chem-Dog
26-04-2010, 18:41
Suddenly... Baneblades.

Pmsl
I meant to change that to infantry before posting but forgot to.:o

sycopat
26-04-2010, 18:47
While I have to say i really like the idea, I don't see GW ever writing "official" rules for such a thing. The game is marketed to older children/young teens, and their parents would almost certainly not like the idea of little timmy ordering his troops to gun down civilians.

However making civilian models available, and what experienced hobbyists would choose to use those models for, is another thing entirely. As such it might be a good product for forgeworld to do...

Comrade Penguin
26-04-2010, 18:50
While I have to say i really like the idea, I don't see GW ever writing "official" rules for such a thing. The game is marketed to older children/young teens, and their parents would almost certainly not like the idea of little timmy ordering his troops to gun down civilians.

However making civilian models available, and what experienced hobbyists would choose to use those models for, is another thing entirely. As such it might be a good product for forgeworld to do...

I would be down for forgeworld civis... and yes I would do horribly evil things with them for my chaos :skull:

stevegill
26-04-2010, 22:24
There's quite a few companies that do civilian or civilian-like figures (in the UK at least GZG and Grenadier spring to mind - both do camera crews).

I also like using fantasy flagellents as with my DE objective markers

Otterpot
26-04-2010, 23:25
I like the idea. Invokes a really grim feeling to the 40k setting and fits well and new models like that would be nice. I think Chaos players could also pay points for chained lines of slaves they could whip and direct for mobile cover. Makes Chaos even more evil.

Dread Lime
26-04-2010, 23:36
A plastic civilian kit would actually be quite useful. They'd make a good starting point for plague zombies, IG conscripts, cultists and Necromunda conversions.

Personally, I'd rather have them shambling in front of my plague tower than running about giving people cover saves.:D

Black Hand
27-04-2010, 03:30
BRILLIANT!!! Just amazingly brilliant! I love this Idea. And I'm sure the emperor would approve as well.

dicnar
27-04-2010, 18:42
i Remember there was a mission in Rogue raders where you were defending a news reporter with camera crewon a battlefield :) i'm also tempted by the idea of civilians in 40k, I even found some miniatures to represent them, but haven't buy them yet. I always figured it somehow strange that we always see the war aspects of the imperium. Of course as the slogan says "there is only war" but I would love to see some civilan miniatures. i remember seeing this imperial governer and his wife in this Final liberation cut scene :) they looked Dune'ish.

Epistolary_tarchis
27-04-2010, 18:54
he he... if there media crews, they would be my *first* target

"And here come the heroic spiked space marines... towards us... and they aint slowin..."

But yeah, using civies as 'mobile cover' just sounds awesome

neko
27-04-2010, 19:04
If there are any civilians in the vicinity of the battle, you give them lasguns and call them conscripts...

Comrade Penguin
27-04-2010, 20:11
Perhaps I will start small by converting up an imperial guard camera crew. They follow the battles and make newsreels for the Commissariat propaganda films. It could be something as simple as a camera man and a reporter who roam the battle field trying to get the best shot... but usually end up getting shot :p

Perhaps they could be worth one or two kill points depending upon whether you want to kill them to decrease enemy morale, or keep them alive for propaganda purposes.

Logarithm Udgaur
28-04-2010, 05:43
Sigur has doen just that within the pages of his megaprojectblog. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135759&page=28 Just scoll down a bit.

Petay1985
28-04-2010, 09:28
I used the heresy minatures engineer type folk as civiallian workers for objectives and themed missions.

L1qw1d
29-04-2010, 17:27
If there are any civilians in the vicinity of the battle, you give them lasguns and call them conscripts...

hearhear! plus hey, it's FUN for other races to come marauding thru a bunch of speed bumps. You could be a space marine or Eldar making time in your favourite watering hole and VOOM they get vaped. or Dark Eldar torturing someone gets interrupted.

For mankind
29-04-2010, 21:48
I haven't read all posts in detail, but am I the only one who things it would be a bad idea if GW would bring out Civilans Models and/or Rules????

The idea of running around and shooting civilians, well...........do i really have to explain that?????

And even if it would be only scenic models, if they where availibel in platic and large numbers it wouldn't take long until all kind of creepy conversions would spread all over the net.
And an result on googel image serach for WH40K would be a chaos lord of Khorne, who is behading a mother with a baby in her arms?

Yes there is already a lot of stuff around that should be left out in the sun on a really hot summer day, but threre is no need to increase the number of that stuff.

It gives me the feeling that this could bring a lot off bad press for 40K

And while I am at it, do you really think it would be fun to set a bunch of civilians on fire, to deny your opponent a cover save???

It seems unecessary to me, to include that into the game, it is already in the backround, and there it is just too ridicules to take it serious, because everybody just wants to kill toruture or enslave civilians.

A lot of you won't share or understand or care about my point thats for sure, but i wanted to express my opinion here.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
29-04-2010, 22:06
And while I am at it, do you really think it would be fun to set a bunch of civilians on fire, to deny your opponent a cover save???


Not just yes, but hell yes.

It would hardly be a mandatory thing, and could help bring the grimdark from the background onto the tabletop if you so chose.

And for the record, Chaos is really freaking evil. A Khorne lord beheading a mother with a child is nothing if you stop to think about Slannesh or Nurgle for a minute. Some of the models may have been sanitized, but make no mistake: 40k's background is as violent and unpleasant as they come.

burad
29-04-2010, 22:17
This is very cool.
And they could be used as an objective in some games.

daboarder
29-04-2010, 22:30
hmm... how bout a compromise. GW just makes civilian models for boy,young men, and old men, girls, young women and old women. no pregnant mother or babies. That way we can have people lopping heads off left right and centre

chromedog
29-04-2010, 22:31
@ForMankind: No, you're not the only one.

It would be a colossal bad move. It would drive miniatures gaming into the public eye (face it, the general public are ignorant of it now.) and give the more vocal and conservative groups more ammunition.

There are already lunatics on the net who say that the game is designed to groom the next generation of brainwashed supersoldiers - do we really need to give them any more ammunition? Look at how video games like Postal were received?

Devil Tree
29-04-2010, 22:52
hmm... how bout a compromise. GW just makes civilian models for boy,young men, and old men, girls, young women and old women. no pregnant mother or babies. That way we can have people lopping heads off left right and centre

A better idea would be to make models of politicians and bureaucrats. Not only would they make good objective markers, but there wouldn't be much mortal baggage, since no one really gives a **** about them, including little Timmy's mom.:rolleyes:

Xyrex
29-04-2010, 23:01
On tanks, civilians can count as "extra armor"

they should have different genders, age, and social class. Maybe they should come out with a book labeled "slaughter" and have both sides trying to kill the civilians as fast as they can, there's dark and grim (and fun) for you.

daboarder
29-04-2010, 23:07
hell the necromunda range really has anything you'd need to make a bunch of civvies. I also ask you this, how many conversion's do you see of kharn lopping the head off some defenseless Imperial guards man captive....not very often adn in the curent political climate that has just as many negative conatations as civillians. Welcome to the 21st century, where everything is F&(*ed up!

MegaPope
29-04-2010, 23:33
Civlians?

*Puts on Commissar's hat*

There are no civilians in the Imperium. In time of war, it is the duty of every Imperial citizen to defend His Immortal Majesty's realm.

The penalty for failing to carry out this duty is service in a Penal Battalion, or death.

*Takes off Commissar's hat*

That's why you don't see civilians in the game. They've all been recruited already ;)

Tactical Retreat!
30-04-2010, 03:54
GW stockholders will never let this happen. Give it up already and model some civilians yourself.