PDA

View Full Version : Oxen Stands and units below 25%



Drake Dun
16-02-2006, 10:47
Another Beasts lore question. Am I correct in reading Oxen Stands to mean that it can be used to rally a unit which could not normally rally on its own? Referring to the rally rules, they say that you may only make a rally test if you have enough guys left. The spell does not involve any tests - the effect is automatic. So can it be used to rally one joker running for his worthless life, for example?

Drake

Festus
16-02-2006, 11:15
Hi

Yes, you can.

Greetings
Festus

peteratwar
16-02-2006, 12:31
Situation not entirely clear & there have been many arguments.

Does the spell overrule the general rule or does it operate only if a unit is capable of rallying.

Drake Dun
16-02-2006, 12:39
Does the spell overrule the general rule or does it operate only if a unit is capable of rallying.

Right now I am with Festus on this one. The rules do not say (at least in Japanese) that a unit below strength cannot rally. They say it cannot test to rally. But the spell effect does not involve a test.

Drake

EvC
16-02-2006, 19:43
Is this not the spell that says the unit -will- rally? If so, I would take it to mean that this means that the unit "will rally when it takes its rally test next phase", so if it's unable to take its test, then it cannot rally...

Festus
16-02-2006, 19:57
Hi

The unit will rally automatically if this spell is succesfully cast.
[Yoda mode] There is no test. Do or do not. [/Yoda mode]

Greetings
Festus

EvC
16-02-2006, 20:31
"a unit must have at least 25% ... to be able to rally"

The unit therefore can't rally, any more than a non-fleeing unit can. But then this spell can't be cast on a non-fleeing unit... I don't know, I'd roll a dice in the situation personally!

Plus I mis-quoted the spell's rule earlier, the unit rallies immediately. Hmm...

Drake Dun
17-02-2006, 02:57
"a unit must have at least 25% ... to be able to rally"

Can someone with the English book check this quote?

Drake

peteratwar
17-02-2006, 07:11
That quote is correct.

As I said originally this is a matter of some controversy!!!

Drake Dun
17-02-2006, 07:46
Could I get the complete, unabbreviated quote?

[EDIT]

The reason I ask is that the people who did the Japanese translation were *very* literal about it, and if there is a genuine difference here it will be the first time. So I sort of suspect that in the broader context of the quote.. you know.

Drake

EvC
17-02-2006, 12:14
Edit: I thought the poster was asking about this quote, so I posted this bit, for some reason:

"This spell can be cast on any friendly fleeing unit on the tabletop. If sueccessful, the unit is rallied immediately."

Here's the Dire Wolf Council interpretation. They're not infallible (They state that when High Elf Spearmen charge they get to fight in two ranks- madness!), but they mention discussing this with the Design Team so that is good enough for me:

"Q. Can the Lore of Beasts spell, The Oxen Stands (which
immediately rallies fleeing troops) be used to rally a unit
that is at less than 25% of its starting size?

A. No. Per guidance from the Design Team questions such as this
should be answered with the phrase "if normally allowed" in mind.
As a unit that is less than 25% of its starting size is not
normally allowed to rally, the spell can not be used to rally
the unit.
S. Rulebook pages 75, 147 / Direwolf FAQ Council Interpretation"

Atrahasis
17-02-2006, 13:05
They're not infallible (They state that when High Elf Spearmen charge they get to fight in two ranks- madness!),

They're right - the rules state that a charging unit with "fight in ranks" weapons fight with one less rank than they would when stationary. Pikes fiht in 3 ranks on the charge, Elven spearmen fight in 2.


but they mention discussing this with the Design Team so that is good enough for me:

I discussed my army with the design team, they said I could take 8 specials in 2000 points. Good enough for you?

Drake Dun
17-02-2006, 13:09
"This spell can be cast on any friendly fleeing unit on the tabletop. If sueccessful, the unit is rallied immediately."

No, it is not the spell that is in question. It is the rules for rallying. In Japanese they say something like "A unit may not make a rally test if..." They do not seem to say that the unit may not *rally*.

Drake

EvC
17-02-2006, 13:15
Well I guess not!

Also I re-read the part about the spears, and that would seem that I was wrong there, and the Dire Wolf people and yourself are correct (Being a high elf player: yay!). So in conclusion, the Design Team are not infallible, but the Dire Wolf people are ;)

Sorry Drake, I dunno how I got the quotes wrong... here's the one about rallying:
"If a fleeing unit has suffered a great many casulaties it will be unable to rally - its warriors are too demoralised and are interested only in escape. A unit must have 25% of its original number of models surviving to be able to rally. If a fleeing unit has less than 25% of its original number left, the unit cannot rally and will continue to flee until it leaves the table or is destroyed."

Drake Dun
17-02-2006, 14:36
Okay, the English is very clear. That makes it a difficult call but I am leaning on the side of can't use it.

What a crappy spell.

Drake

Atrahasis
17-02-2006, 17:59
I'd just like to add that the "guidance from the Design Team" makes little sense.

When do we keep "if normally allowed" in mind and when do we stop?

There are some rules which make no sense at all if we add "if normally allowed". There are some that make perfect sense (ie there sense is not changed).
And then there are those whose sense is completely changed, but not to the same extent as the first category, where the non-sense created makes it obvious that "if normally allowed" is a silly thing to add.

mageith
17-02-2006, 18:38
I'd just like to add that the "guidance from the Design Team" makes little sense.

When do we keep "if normally allowed" in mind and when do we stop?

What Direwolf does is contact the current members of the design team for help and support in their interpretations.

As a long time writer of rules, I can tell you that when it comes to intent of a rule contradiction in certain arcane circumstances there really isn't any. In other words, the author may have never thought of this contradiction when he wrote the Beast Lore (even though it seems to be a pretty obvious one and GW's had two chances to make it clear.).



There are some rules which make no sense at all if we add "if normally allowed". There are some that make perfect sense (ie there sense is not changed).

:) I'm sure. And that's exactly what I mean. When the term "if normally allowed" is applied to other cases, then other rules contradictions appear and I'm sure that's not the intent of the design teams response.



And then there are those whose sense is completely changed, but not to the same extent as the first category, where the non-sense created makes it obvious that "if normally allowed" is a silly thing to add.
Sometimes its simply better to answer the question than give reasoning behind it.

IMO, the Oxen spell is simply an out and out rules contradiction. The spells says that a unit is rallied and the general rules say the unit cannot rally in certain circumstances.

So instead of forcing a dice roll to weaken this already weak default spell, GW went out, unoffcially, on a limb and made a decision even giving a reason for it. Thus ensuring that Beasts and this default spell will be used even less. :(

GW removed the helpful magic over mundane trump that existed in 5e and left us with loads of rules contradictions.

The magic mundane trump still exists, despite GW's statement it does not but in a much weakened form and only for magic items. "If cases of contradiction, the special rule of a magic item takes precedence over normal games rules." Too bad a spell isn't a magic item.

OTOH, what the 25% rule limits is probably "intended" to be the rally TEST, for that is the heading of section it is under (RALLY TEST) page 75, but what it says that a unit can't rally and it says it twice on that page.

A further complication is that the spell uses the passive voice "is rallied" as if from an outside force which of course it is--the outside force of magic. The rule on 75 states the unit cannot rally but doesn't prevent it from being rallied. In other words, the unit itself cannot actively rally itself but its not prevented from some other method, such as this spell.

Mage Ith