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View Full Version : New Tourney Season, new tourney list!



Dungeon_Lawyer
17-04-2010, 03:50
In the development stages of a list for this upcoming tourney season.
What do you y'all think of this list?

Order of Battle: The Sacred Scales, Lord Chubbawhubba’s warhost 2250 points


Core:
10 skink skirmishers with blowpipes 70 points
10 skink skirmishers with blowpipes 70 points
18 saurus with hand weapons and shields, spears, full command 248 points
16 skinks with Javelins and shields, musician, 2 Kroxigors 196 points

584 in core
Special:
14 temple guard with halberds, hand weapons, light armor/shields, full command
War banner+25 284 points
Stegadon 235 points
5 Cold one rider Saurus 175 points
694 in special
Rare:
1 Salamander hunting pack with 3 skink handlers 75 points
1 Salamander hunting pack with 4 skink handlers 80 points
155 in rare

Lords and Heros:

Lord Chubbawhubba-High Priest of Huatl 275

4th level wizard, battle standard bearer+25. Plaque of Dominion +50
3 disciplines+100: Focus of Mystery, The Becalming Agitation, The Focused Rumination.
Magic items: +15 bane head(enchanted), power stone +20, cupped hands of old ones (arcane) +45 .
530 points
Saurus Scar-vet +85, Light armor+5, Burning Blade of Chotec +20, enchanted shield(common)+15,
Cold one mount+20. 145 points

Skink Priest +65,+35 2nd level, Cube of Darkness+40. 140 points


815 in lords & heroes


Total: 2248
I wanted a list that hits a little harder in cc
I swapped out 10 s/skinks, 3 terradons(whose performence I found mixed), and 7 chameleon skinks(ditto) for the plaque of Dominion and the cold ones. Was my list improved? Thanks for any advice.....

__________________________________________________ _____________________
EDITED LIST BELOW
Order of Battle : The Sacred Scales, Lord Chubbawhubba’s warhost 2250 points

Core:
11 skink skrirmhers/brave 83 points
10 skink skirmishers 70points
18 saurus with hand weapons and shields, spears, full command 248 points
401 points in core

Special:
19 temple guard with halberds, hand weapons, light armor/shields, full command
War banner+25 , sword of the hornet +25 389 points
stegadon 235 points
3 terradons 90 points

714 in special

Rare:
1 Salamander hunting pack with 3 skink handlers 75 points
1 Salamander hunting pack with 3 skink handlers 75 points
150 in rare

Lords and Heros:

Lord Chubbawhubba-High Priest of Huatl 275

4th level wizard, battle standard bearer+25. Jag Standard +25
4 disciplines+150: Focus of mystery, The Focused Rumination, Becalming Agitation, Unfantomable Prescence.
Magic items: +15 bane head(enchanted), power stone +20x2, cupped hands +45(arcane) .
575 points

Saurus Scar-vet +85, Light armor+5, enchanted shield(common)+15,
burning blade of Chotec +20. Cold one mount+20. 145 points

Skink Priest +65,+35 2nd level, dispell scroll +25. 125 points

Saurus Scar-vet +85, Light armor+5,GW+6, shield+3,Venom of Firefly Frog +10, war drum +30 139 points
984 in lords & heroes




Total: 2249..
This list seems much more powerful to me due to more versatility w the addition of march blocking, machine hunting, flying annoyance units in the form of terradons . War drum/GW/ff VENOM scarvet deploys into the beefed up temple guard w/huanchi's . The plan is to use that unit AGRESSIVELY and once its engaged I bring in the steg to hammer , Which list do you all prefer?

Nyyman
17-04-2010, 05:33
A couple of things to say:
- Skink Skirmishers don't need Braves. NEVER. And 10 Skinks with blowpipes without Brave costs 70 points.
- The other Salamander with the 4th Skink is probably a point filler. In that case, have him if you want.
- Plaque of Dominion isn't worth it IMO. And I'm pretty sure that even when you fall into Stupidity you can casts spells (or was it only if the mount is stupid?).
- Get Musician for the CoRs. You never know when you fail two Ld 8/9 in row. And helps them win tough battles.
- And most importantly, don't type all the points. Only the last point sum should be typed.

Dungeon_Lawyer
17-04-2010, 06:28
A couple of things to say:
- Skink Skirmishers don't need Braves. NEVER. And 10 Skinks with blowpipes without Brave costs 70 points.
- The other Salamander with the 4th Skink is probably a point filler. In that case, have him if you want.
- Plaque of Dominion isn't worth it IMO. And I'm pretty sure that even when you fall into Stupidity you can casts spells (or was it only if the mount is stupid?).
- Get Musician for the CoRs. You never know when you fail two Ld 8/9 in row. And helps them win tough battles.
- And most importantly, don't type all the points. Only the last point sum should be typed.

-oops! dont know how the braves got in their---edited.
-you cant, charge, shoot, or cast spells if stupid. The plaque can be an outright gamechanger...
-ill see if I can find the points for a muscian, but most of the time I plan to use them as flank chargers on whatever the TG unit engages....

Grymlok
17-04-2010, 14:23
I've said in another post that I didn't have much luck with the Plaque of Dominion, but I believe it was you Dungeon_Lawyer that told me to "try it now!" :D (I haven't yet)

If you're sure it's worth the points then aye.

I like this list, no Terradons, Cold one unit with Scar-Vet, Skink co-hort with 2 Kroxigor. I think opponents will like to play this list.

One suggestion though, the war banner on the TG. You might be worth dropping a few points elsewhere and sticking the fear causing banner on.

Bladelord
17-04-2010, 14:57
One suggestion: Don't make pulls like 3,5,7 etc make them 2,4,6.

Like your list & keep the Warbanner in my opinion.

Vsurma
17-04-2010, 15:06
I have a very different point of view, I would say ALWAYS take braves, they cost 6pts extra! 6! so if they save even 1 skink from dying they have paid themselves off.

Let me paint a picture of why I always take a brave.

1. I place my skinks in front of a unit I don't want charged, like a stegadon, the opponent charges his tough character+mount at them, if I flee he gets to charge what he originally wanted, if I take the charge and challenge, he gets to kill 1 skink brave, while I still maintain outnumber, as long as I am within range of the bsb I will probably hold.

The outnumber adds +1 cr which can make a huge difference, the other situation where it really matters is if the enemy causes fear, which is very common. Without the outnumber I would be forced to flee when I lose combat, this way I lose only 1 skink and keep the outnumber.

Lizardmen in general have a hard time dealing with dragons, your list is very similar to mine and really has nothing that does especially well against the dragon and rider combo. Skink braves will allow you to alleviate the dmg they do to 1 skink a turn, not great for the 700pt investment the opponent made.

Of course having more units makes it more useful.

So basically.... take skink braves!

Overall the list seems pretty decent, few questions though.

Why 14 temple guard instead of 16 (for the full 3 ranks)?

Why take a steg and a skink priest separately when you can combine them into an engine of the gods.

6 cold ones works better than 5, or do you mean to put the scar vet in the unit?

I think your going overboard on the slann, and your magic defence in general.

plaque of dominion, balming cognition, cupped hands and the cube, that is 185pts in magic defence and miscast protection, for what is essentially a 350pts mage.

I guess if your up against a lot of magic it might be worth it, still, you have a spare hero slot, you could consider a lv2 with the diadam of power, its 125pts for 3 dispel dice which is pretty good for its price, it can also fit in a scroll if you like.

btw the engine would also give you +1 dispell dice.

Mostly decent list, though I think the slann can do what you want of it for a lot cheaper.

Slot
17-04-2010, 16:59
personally i think that if your skinks are getting charged you are doing something wrong... they are there to redirect and flee and get plenty of shots out on big stuff and thats about it

Hiro Protagonist
17-04-2010, 17:32
Vsurma- In a challenge with a skink brave, wont a mounted character such as the dragon you mentioned usually build up sufficient overkill CR to break the unit and possibly overrun into the next unit? Even with a Slann's LD and BSB i'd think the skinks would break half the time, or am i missing something critical?

Dungeon Lawyer- With the LD of most spell casters i'm not sold on the plaque of dominion, but then again, such use of something relatively unorthodox could ruin someone's battle at a critical moment. I feel your magic defense in general may be a bit much though. Perhaps change the Cube to a scroll and use the spare points for Cold One musician/extra handler/extra TG. The stupidity will kick in once in a while, and it is nice to be able to flee Cold Ones with confidence should they get stranded somewhere dangerous.

Overall i think it's a nice list. The variety should make it stand out from the 'typical' Lizardmen tourney list. Perhaps some opponents accustomed to automated responses will get to think on their toes again (no 'use this against the terradons and do such and such to the EotG...) As long as you have enough practice getting a feel for the 2 Krox unit's potential you should be in good shape. With the speed of some of these units and the overall CC potential i can see you successfully closing with most enemies without terradons heading for war machines etc. The list changes shouldn't fail you and will bring new experience.

Dungeon_Lawyer
18-04-2010, 09:06
@vSURMA: Im leery of skink braves because the tournies I play in all have game point modifiers-one of which being +1 battle point for enemy champions you kill--- I dont like to give away such an easy point modifier in the form of braves and possibly turn a draw into a loss-Thats burned me in the past...

--I run my TG 6x3
---No not generally , The scar-vet goes where he is needed the most, so his deployment will be on a game by game basis---if there are a great many fear causers running about he deploys into the spear saurus.
----I see what you are stating about too much magic D--let me see if I can make a few tweaks and cheapen ChubbaWhubba up a bit


@everyone-- Thanks-keep the replies coming!

Vsurma
18-04-2010, 10:38
Vsurma- In a challenge with a skink brave, wont a mounted character such as the dragon you mentioned usually build up sufficient overkill CR to break the unit and possibly overrun into the next unit? Even with a Slann's LD and BSB i'd think the skinks would break half the time, or am i missing something critical?

Dungeon Lawyer- With the LD of most spell casters i'm not sold on the plaque of dominion, but then again, such use of something relatively unorthodox could ruin someone's battle at a critical moment. I feel your magic defense in general may be a bit much though. Perhaps change the Cube to a scroll and use the spare points for Cold One musician/extra handler/extra TG. The stupidity will kick in once in a while, and it is nice to be able to flee Cold Ones with confidence should they get stranded somewhere dangerous.

Overall i think it's a nice list. The variety should make it stand out from the 'typical' Lizardmen tourney list. Perhaps some opponents accustomed to automated responses will get to think on their toes again (no 'use this against the terradons and do such and such to the EotG...) As long as you have enough practice getting a feel for the 2 Krox unit's potential you should be in good shape. With the speed of some of these units and the overall CC potential i can see you successfully closing with most enemies without terradons heading for war machines etc. The list changes shouldn't fail you and will bring new experience.

Breaking half the time is about right, with them getting +5 cr, that tends to leave you with ld4 with a re-roll, assuming they don't fluff more than the average amount of attacks.

Even the hardest dragons only have 11 attacks with their rider, so that evens out to about 7.67 hits and 6.11 wounds.

So basically 45% of the time (off the top of my head) they will cause LESS than the 6 wounds for max CR, these 45% of the time you really have no trouble holding, even a ld5 test with reroll gives you REALLY good odds.

Now the other 55% of the time that they do get the full 6 CR and win by 5, you have ld4 with reroll, I don't have the table on me but I think your right, you will break about 50% of the time, not bad imo.

7pts gets you a 50% chance to thwart a dragon and rider (700pts) plans. How can people complain about this? I really don't get it.

Now once you add another unit to the combat, say you charge them them (as I often do against dragons), with 2 skink units, now you have 2 champs and 2 units in combat.

With a 50% chance to break, and 2 units to test for it, your only breaking 25% of the time. Again, your losing a 13pt model per turn.

The last time I played vs a dragon, it was a HE stardragon with prince on top, around 700pts, over the course of the game he killed 4 skink champions before I managed a side and rear charge with skinks and front charge with temple guard autobreaking him.... well nearly autobreak since I had doom and darkness cast on him.

But the main point is that it costs so little, its an extra 7pts, 7pts that tends to pay itself off if your ever charged. If your never charged or you flee from all your charges then you will have paid 7pts per unit for +1 bs, its not great 7pts is hardly game changing.

I guess for me it comes down to fearing dragons, without these champs in my skink units I find the dragons can do whatever they want, with them they cannot, if they come to close I can charge them and hold them in place.

I haven't really had much luck against dragons any other way tbh, templeguard do tend to auto win vs them but unless I can keep them locked down I will never get the charge on a 20" moving flyer with my M4 infantry. Also the autowin tends to go away once I lose outnumber and a rank so I need those skink champs again to lesson losses.

The only other things that seem to hurt the dragons are steal soul and beast cowers but good dragon lists always come with at least 2 scrolls if not 4 so having exactly 1 harmful spell doesn't really work out.

The list above really doesn't have anything to deal with a dragon, most lizardmen armies don't.

The best I have come up with is the ancient steg with warspear chief, this at least makes 2 spells from the beasts lore dangerous making it harder for a few scrolls to shut you down.

Vsurma
18-04-2010, 10:57
@vSURMA: Im leery of skink braves because the tournies I play in all have game point modifiers-one of which being +1 battle point for enemy champions you kill--- I dont like to give away such an easy point modifier in the form of braves and possibly turn a draw into a loss-Thats burned me in the past...

--I run my TG 6x3
---No not generally , The scar-vet goes where he is needed the most, so his deployment will be on a game by game basis---if there are a great many fear causers running about he deploys into the spear saurus.
----I see what you are stating about too much magic D--let me see if I can make a few tweaks and cheapen ChubbaWhubba up a bit


@everyone-- Thanks-keep the replies coming!

Well, special rules always change the way the game is played, I do tend to lose my skink units in most games, often the only things that die.

Why 6 by 3? For me the unit tends to win with its static CR, it starts with 7 most of the time, anything that charges it will either wipe out the front rank or be fighting the unit champ so no attacks from me.

Anything I charge will die from 5 anyway, also I rarely if ever have a chance to use the halberds. So for me the 5*4 has been the most effective.

If I managed to get more charges off with the unit getting 6 halberd attacks might be nice, but for me it doesn't happen, on that note the Huanchi standard is really nice, no one I have come up against has expected it so far.

Dungeon_Lawyer
18-04-2010, 10:58
hhhmmmmm I rather like your strategy of feeding braves in challenges to dragon's. You have to pass terror checks too of course, but hmmm....

Have you found this tactic has utility against other big gribblies too? any examples...

Vsurma
18-04-2010, 11:21
Well, ld6 with cold blooded is probably a 80-90% success rate so its not the biggest deal.

Just ask a slaanesh player how often a lizardman fails ld tests. You may as well be immune to psych.

The brave strat doesn't work against all monsters, they need to be Characters or ridden by them for you to be able to challenge, so it won't work vs hydras, hellpit aboms etc, it does work vs dragons, manticores and the treeman ancient etc. The ancient etc will never break you because he won't be getting the full 6 cr from the challenge with so few attacks.

The other thing is that lizardmen don't fear most other monsters that much anyway. The dragons are the worst, for the hydra we can build a scar vet that ignores all its armour and regen and still has a 2+ save from the hydras attacks.

Dungeon_Lawyer
18-04-2010, 23:13
I edited the 1ST POST to include an alternative list based on contributer imput. Let me know which list you think is more killy-fun.

Ayliffe
19-04-2010, 03:37
the second list only has 2 core choices, you need 3

Vsurma
19-04-2010, 06:04
I really think pretty much every lizardmen army build should start with 3 units of skinks (at least 2 with blowpipes) and work from there, they really are THAT good.

Ask any demon player (barring maybe the thirster who actually wears armour) how they feel when poison shots fire on their greater demons .... they are never happy.

Skinks do a lot of damage against the right targets, otherwise they redirect, march block and just annoy the heck out of the opponent.

I run 3 units of 10 with brave and the chams and I would not dream of having less than 3.

The Temple guard block seems really expensive but I would be interested in hearing how it does, I can never really bring myself to run it very aggressively myself but after most games I tend to wish I had.

If your going to run a scar vet in the TG unit it would be a good idea to give it a cold one to ride, at present it has a 4+ save when using that GW so it will still be a target.

I was actually at a tournament once where some one ran a really big TG unit, I think it might have even been 4*7, massive, it seemed to work as it was winning the tournament until it ran into a thirster.

Dungeon_Lawyer
19-04-2010, 06:54
the second list only has 2 core choices, you need 3
oops! thanks-list corrected



The Temple guard block seems really expensive but I would be interested in hearing how it does, I can never really bring myself to run it very aggressively myself but after most games I tend to wish I had.
Yeah me too, hence this list!



If your going to run a scar vet in the TG unit it would be a good idea to give it a cold one to ride, at present it has a 4+ save when using that GW so it will still be a target.
But if mounted then the TG unit is subject to stupidity and the GW does not autokill chariots cause its strg 6 not 7. Itotally agree that his armor save aint great when he uses the GW--that weapon will be situational....but his save still aint too shabby when he goes with the hw/sheild combo...

Hiro Protagonist
19-04-2010, 23:38
Vsurma- You're right. So what if the skinks break half the time? The look on an opponent's face the first time the unit holds should be well worth it, to say nothing of pinning the dragon in place. I like your tactic, very innovative. I will certainly employ it and think of you next time i face a lone mounted character. (At last a good reason to use all those old metal braves sitting around:D)

Dungeon Lawyer- I still like the first list as a list, but for a tournament it is true that the second offers you more versatility against an unknown array of enemy forces. I've run 20-blocks of TG in the past and was able to be quite aggressive with them without ever paying for it (yet.) Got close to losing the Slann in combat twice, but in the end i was pleased to see the opponent throwing so much effort into grinding away almost all 20 TG in the process. There are situations where they'll be utterly defeated, but in many cases they're tough as nails and ridiculously dependable. Have fun with them!

Agnar the Howler
20-04-2010, 00:23
In regards to the second list, why do you have a spear and the burning blade on your Scar Vet? If i'm not mistaken you can only ever use the burning blade.

scarvet
20-04-2010, 00:50
Wrong button....tick overpower instead of boring......:p

Dungeon_Lawyer
20-04-2010, 14:32
In regards to the second list, why do you have a spear and the burning blade on your Scar Vet? If i'm not mistaken you can only ever use the burning blade.

oops! edited, thanks.