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Gosuryne
17-04-2010, 06:19
I don't really see these guys in too many lists or battle reports. Is it because Chaos Knights are vastly superior?

I really like the fluff behind these guys and want to field them, but can anyone point out any tactical advantages to having them?

Strengths? Weaknesses?

Fredrik
17-04-2010, 07:07
Hi their are 4 W a piece are awesome, they are in most of my lists with great success (they can take on anything with S 7).

The great save combined with loads of S5 attacks and magicsl attacks does make knights condtenders for a different role (true they are also able to take on some of the DO´s role), perhaps a wider role then the DO being able to take on more kinds of threats.

I do however feel that the DO´s role is aimed against harder nuts to crack where the S7 and 4 W often come in handy while the amount of attacks by the knights often do a better job vs RNF and situations where the number of attacks are important to make sure you win the fight. Try to not use the DO´against the front of RNF they do not have enough attacks to regularly win. The DO´s do however make great (but expensive) assasins for generals or lv4 wizzards (even if mounted on a dragon ;)).

But, lets not forget that the knights are one of the best cav units in the game that can take on most threats.

I often use both since that leaves me with the option to take on everything.

The downside to the DO is that they are quite expensive (more so then the knights) and alot of people do not like the current models. But if you (like me) run them 4 wide there is very few things they wouldn´t dare take on in a fight.

Also the 4W makes them so much more resiliant taking charges the the 3W that often loose 1-2 model on the charge. In my experiance alot of the time all 4 get to swing back. I have very rarely experianced that 2 where taken down on the charge. This meens most people hesitate to charge them because they auto destroy chariots and generally hurt back as hell even if you in the en will take them down they sure take you with them.

This in effect mean they can really mess with your opponents gameplan, and in this lays thir real worth.

Also lets not forget they are immune (get frenzy) against lightning attacks, thus they do not fear the doomwheel (who usually oblitorates multiwound creatures) or any lightningbased spells.

danny-d-b
17-04-2010, 07:44
I'd agree with the above poster, DOs are great at cracking open enermy knights like its no ones buisness, there is nothing better than having 9 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2 then giving your opponunt a -4 to there armour save, the only thing that comes close to doing that much dammage specicly to knights are trolls (with vomit) and they suffer stupidity- I always take a unit of 3 with GWs at 2000 points (at 1500 its them or a giant depeding on weather I'm playing MON army or my MOS army)

Sinsigel
17-04-2010, 12:04
Also lets not forget they are immune (get frenzy) against lightning attacks, thus they do not fear the doomwheel (who usually oblitorates multiwound creatures) or any lightningbased spells.

Does Zzzzaappp(whatever the spelling is) attack count as lightning attacks?

Harwammer
17-04-2010, 12:14
They have expensive, dated models. Chaos knights have nice, pretty, cheap models.

You can pretty much get an entire unit of chaos knights for the same price (money) as a single dragon ogre. My conclusion from this is people go for knights to save money as 3 units of knights isn't as versatile as 2 units of knights with 1 unit of dragon ogres. Either that or people get hung up on using 'the best' unit in their army, instead of thing how the army as a whole works.

Desert Rain
17-04-2010, 12:50
Does Zzzzaappp(whatever the spelling is) attack count as lightning attacks?
Yes it does.

BigbyWolf
17-04-2010, 13:08
They have expensive, dated models. Chaos knights have nice, pretty, cheap models.

You can pretty much get an entire unit of chaos knights for the same price as a single dragon ogre.

Do you mean Shaggoth? A Drogre is only 65 points base.

Valaraukar
17-04-2010, 13:38
He means money wise

Zaustus
17-04-2010, 14:17
I converted mine out of DE cold ones and Black Orcs. It was much cheaper, they look better and I have tons of bits left over!

Game wise, I like them but most of the time Knights are better. The S7 is really useful if you know you're going up against high-toughness stuff, like a Steam Tank or Treeman. Most of the time, the huge number of attacks from Knights will actually outperform the S7 of the drogres.

They are way cool though, so I do like using them when I get the chance.

Gosuryne
17-04-2010, 16:16
Also lets not forget they are immune (get frenzy) against lightning attacks, thus they do not fear the doomwheel (who usually oblitorates multiwound creatures) or any lightningbased spells.

A big reason why I like them. They are also immune to Killing blow which is pretty common now.

I was thinking a unit of 3 DOs with an Exalted MoK BSB with the Banner of rage? Could be 4 S7 attacks DO or 5 S5 attacks with additional hw.... hmmm..

I also want to include a Warshrine and a Shaggoth as my rare choices... Give a roll on the table for the DOs as well as giving its champion a chance to roll.

Harwammer
17-04-2010, 16:54
Do you mean Shaggoth? A Drogre is only 65 points base.

Valaraukar is correct, I was speaking in terms of money. I've edited my post for clarity's sake.

Lordsaradain
17-04-2010, 17:00
The biggest problem with DO atm are the models IMO. If the rumours about new plastic DO's are true, I'm pretty sure we will see them being used much more often.

Valaraukar
17-04-2010, 17:33
Val

I feel so immasculated :cries:

omnivision6
17-04-2010, 20:03
my DO's killed bloodthirsters on more than one occasion. love the 4w.

shaun03
18-04-2010, 18:31
they do work out well, but the modles are not the best GW made. I use my FW plauge orgyans. Althou a few rule lawyers have bitch about it. Most likey becuase they tore part about every thing they came in contact with.

Lord Malorne
18-04-2010, 18:42
They have yet to fail me in any games I have played, as with most things in the WoC army, it comes down to multiple charges against the smae target, they hit hard enough without any upgrades.

snottlebocket
18-04-2010, 19:08
I run 3 with great weapons on my flank. They're faster than knights, at 4 wounds with a 4+ armoursave they're pretty durable and they can beat up just about anything short of a ranked unit.

The strength 7 is just wonderful. My dragon ogres have murdered everything from knights and chariots to large monsters like dragons.

I included a champion as well but that was mostly because my list themed on having as many fast, high strength attacks as possible. I filled my mandatory core with 3 units of flail wielding horsemen. The rest of the army consisted of 2 units of knights, 4 khornate ogres with great weapons, 3 dragon ogres, 2 giants and all of the characters are disc mounted. (remainder of the points filled out with units of hounds)

It worked surprisingly well, not overpowered but it's a pretty balanced force. The sheer speed and the fact that almost every single thing in the army hits like a ton of bricks is a very fun playstyle.

shortlegs
19-04-2010, 04:47
As posted in the WoC Tactica thread, I'm tempted to use some Dragon Ogres myself. My knights seem to struggle against all the big gribbly monsters that my friends like to play, from plague furnaces/HPAs/doomwheels to dragons to hydras to gorgons.. Sometimes I find strength 5 to be lacking..

Djekar
19-04-2010, 06:14
One thing I heard recently that you could try if you make room for the points is to take 4 D.Ogres and run them 3 and 1, so the guy in the back can either be a shooting sponge, or if you are charged to the flank he slides over and gives you double the attacks. Not necessarily mandatory, but it sounded like a good option to think about.

Valaraukar
19-04-2010, 07:12
I often run them in 4s depends on how many points I have avalable though.

Roark
19-04-2010, 13:25
I love my Drogres. I converted mine out of GW Drogre bodies and Ironguts heads and torsos... And a lot of greenstuff to bulk up those puny bodies.

They are my favourite anti-knight/gribbly weapon, and model-wise, they are one of the centrepieces of my army.

Gosuryne
20-04-2010, 06:13
Ok lets say there wasn't a huge price tag on Dragon Ogres for a minute..

What are some good combos, Lord/heros or even magic that would be synergistic with the Dragon Ogres?

I can see a Khorne BSB on a Juggernaut in a unit of 3 DOs with either banner of the gods or rage being decent tie up unit or monster killer unit.

Eta
20-04-2010, 08:52
Generally, Dragon Ogres do not need any support when you send them at what they are best against. They will kill knights, they will kill chariots, they will kill most monsters. If they get a flank charge, they will be able to break ranked troops, too. In my opinion, there is no need to buy expensive characters for them.

Greetings
Eta

Poseidal
20-04-2010, 10:49
I run them in 3s. I've been considering 3 but against monster targets, I'll only get 3 in as they're mostly on 50mm bases.

Mutter
22-04-2010, 10:42
They're faster than knights, ...

How's that? Am I missing something?

I build mine from DE cold ones and black orcs, too. They look sweet and I use 2x 4 in most of my lists.
Apart from the models, what makes me use them is:

- often, they turn out more durable than my knights. One or two '1s' are quickly rolled, and the knights lose efficiency fast after the first casualty
- just love the S7, especially against chariots
- I don't play with a lot of magic defence, and the DO are a lot less vulnerable to magic, especially metal magic, but also skaven zzzzap-magic

happy_doctor
23-04-2010, 13:24
Adding a champion upgrade to a unit of three dragon ogres seems like a good move, mainly due to wound allocation; where 4 ranged wounds would kill one dragon ogre, you now need at least 6!

As a plus, does the Dragon Ogre champion get to roll on the EoTG table if he kills a character in a challenge? With 4 wounds, 4 attacks ws4 and s7 he's more than capable of dealing with most hero-level characters out there, perhaps some of the lords as well.

I don't play chaos, but if I did these guys would be in my list every time.

snottlebocket
23-04-2010, 13:35
Adding a champion upgrade to a unit of three dragon ogres seems like a good move, mainly due to wound allocation; where 4 ranged wounds would kill one dragon ogre, you now need at least 6!

As a plus, does the Dragon Ogre champion get to roll on the EoTG table if he kills a character in a challenge? With 4 wounds, 4 attacks ws4 and s7 he's more than capable of dealing with most hero-level characters out there, perhaps some of the lords as well.

I don't play chaos, but if I did these guys would be in my list every time.

That wounds allocation thing is just plain dirty. Champions only get eye of the gods rules if there's a warshrine present on the table.

It could be worth it though. Between my dragon ogre champion and my khornate ogre champion they beat so many monsters into a pulp that they end up mutating almost every game. I don't catch a lot of characters and most of those are well protected, but you see more and more monsters in the game and our larger champions are well suited for taking those out. Quite often we hit on 3's, wound on 3's or even 2's and you don't have to kill monsters in a challenge, even running them down as they flee nets you a bonus.

My various monstrous infantry sounds even better in the new edition. If heavy cavalry loses march and monstrous infantry gains crush attack, that's a major boost for us. (frankly, I won't even miss march on the chaos knights, they usually roll forward only a bit on the first turn anyway to avoid getting charged and then charge when they come into range) I do the flanking with dragon ogres who can march as usual.

danny-d-b
23-04-2010, 14:57
yep but they also have to challange every turn and you don't want your other two dragon oges sat around doing nothing, cas there not going to generate SCR with them

Eta
23-04-2010, 16:43
That shouldn't be a problem. Single characters like mages die in the first round and you do not attack units in the front. Monsters can't be challenged (Greater Daemons and dragons do not count in my book, everybody that fields them in a friendly game is a dork).

Greetings
Eta

BigbyWolf
23-04-2010, 17:12
I can see a Khorne BSB on a Juggernaut in a unit of 3 DOs with either banner of the gods or rage being decent tie up unit or monster killer unit.

A bit too much overkill for just a tie-up unit, and very expensive, your talking about over 500 points (BoTG) or over 400 points (BoR). Drogers work very well on there own TBH, if you want to bulk them up I'd suggest making the BSB a standard Exalted with some cheap equipment, that's usually more than enough.

happy_doctor
26-04-2010, 13:25
That wounds allocation thing is just plain dirty. Champions only get eye of the gods rules if there's a warshrine present on the table.


Perhaps I didn't explain my thinking: A champion counts as a character model, so gets look out sir in units of 5 or more RnF troops and can't be targetted independently as long as the unit is more than 5 Rank and File models strong.
As with characters joining small units, if there is less than 5 RnF, ranged wounds need to be allocated as evenly as possible amongst the models of the unit, including characters and champions. So if a unit of 3 dragon ogres with champion sustains 4 wounds, each ogre will suffer one and the odd wound will be randomised as normal (ie wounding the champion on a roll of 5-6). This means that even if the unit suffers 5 wounds, as long as one of the 2 un-allocated wounds hits the champion, the unit will continue to be full strength (champion having suffered 2 wounds and a normal ogre 3).

What is dirty and what is ok depends on your gaming group, in mine this is the normal thing to do and not an underhanded trick.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned, I agree wholeheartedly. I hadn't even thought of the monster-killing application of the EoTG rule, so that only serves to make them better!

Now I'm tempted to start a dragon ogre cult-themed warriors of chaos army! ;)

snottlebocket
26-04-2010, 15:14
Perhaps I didn't explain my thinking: A champion counts as a character model, so gets look out sir in units of 5 or more RnF troops and can't be targetted independently as long as the unit is more than 5 Rank and File models strong.
As with characters joining small units, if there is less than 5 RnF, ranged wounds need to be allocated as evenly as possible amongst the models of the unit, including characters and champions. So if a unit of 3 dragon ogres with champion sustains 4 wounds, each ogre will suffer one and the odd wound will be randomised as normal (ie wounding the champion on a roll of 5-6).

Oh yeah it's completely by the rules. I didn't mean to imply I think you're a cheater. I just didn't expect to see wound allocation shennanigans like that this side of 40k.