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Asher
19-04-2010, 12:04
Now that the new edition has be officially announced for 10th of July and quite a few soild rumors have surfaced; I'd like to take the opportunity and discuss what the new edition might bring for WoC.

Based on what we currently know, it seems as if the new edition will be largley beneficial for the WoC, but let's look at the changes in detail.

Rumors taken from the round up and threads in the rumor section:



ARMY SELECTION

Characters 25% Maximum
Core 25% Minimum
Specials 50% Maximum
Rare 15% Maximum.

The character limitation will hurt our army in low point games, given how expensive characters tend to be.
In high point games, it wont hinder us that much, for our hero choices are very powerful and often to be preferred over lord choices.

Or core is deadly and expensive, so filling up that mandatory 25% won't be to hard at all.

50% specials will surely limit some lists, but compared to the early rumors of 25% specials, it's really generous. In a 2000p game, which has been proposed as standard, one can still fit 1000p of specials; enough for knights, drogers and various other units.

15% on rare seems restrictive at first, but most of our good units will just fit into that boundary.
Unfortunately the Shaggot suffers an other blow; being overpriced already and restricted to games over 2000p.



MAGIC
NOTE: The magic rumours nobody seems to agree on, so rather than try and find what exactly the truth is I will just put here most of the theories

* Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The pool is decided by 2D6. Magic users add their magic level to the score rolled. All Wizards have a chance to generate more power dice. - Avian
* Giving irresistible force a downside
* If a wizard fails to cast (not counting dispels) twice in a row he miscasts
* Making miscasts harder to have but much more devastating.
* Dispel scroll only adding dispel dice (+2 dice to the dispel dice pool once per game). (edit - possibly speculation)
* Something rumoured is carrying over power dice, but holding too many could lead to a ‘magic backlash’.
* All the book Lores will have more supportive spells than they have now, and will all be getting a major overhaul. Each lore to get a mega spell.
* Dispel attempts to be made by specific wizards (presumable your casting level is beneficial for dispelling spells)
* A higher chance of miscast with multiple casters.
* If a wizard fail to cast a spell he can't cast other spells in the same phase.


It's suggested that power- and dispel dice won't be generated by mages (alone) but randomly determined before the game.

Now fighty charcters will have a chance, if dispel dice aren't mage dependent any more; i.e. you will have some degree of protection even without fielding any mages at all.



* Stepping up. – Harry/ Avian

* Horde
Fight in 3 ranks if 10+ wide (4 with spears). - Avian.
OR
Some benefit to fighting in large units, may automatically become stubborn beyond a certain unit size. – Harry

* One Save to ruin them all!
Models will only ever get one save (be it ward, mundane or magical armour). No word yet on whether regeneration is included. From Alessio himself!

* 40mm models
40mm models moving to 3 model-wide ranks. Ogre sized models are officially being put into their own size category (finally).
* Crush them!
Additional stomp/crush attacks for big infantry (ogres, trolls, etc) to represent them trampling lesser races underfoot. Bigger bonus for large creatures like giants. These are not impact hits.

* Fewer armour save modifiers

* Chariots
S7 autokill is gone. (edit: possible speculation)


Stepping up could help chaos warriors to score a few more kills and thus being more useful. Pared with the 'fewer armor save modifiers' rumor, our core choices really seem to come out on top.

Given the many monstrous infantry choices in the WoC book, the 'crush them' rule will make Drogers, Ogers Trolls and other big guys more effective.

If heavy cavalry won't be able to march, I can see Drogers being more popular if they retain their marching ability.

Finally chariots; chaos chariots are one of the toughes chariots in the game, if 'S7 autokill' is truly gone, it will further add to their resilence.


That's it for now. Most of my comments have been fairly positive; I realise though that some of the changes will hamper the WoC, most notably Chaos Knights.

Discuss!

Valaraukar
19-04-2010, 12:11
Yup I'm pretty excited about getting my warriors into action under the new rules, can't see a lot to complain about. Then again I could say the same about my beastmen, daemons, empire and skaven I'm just generally happy with all the 8th rumours I've heard so far.

logan054
19-04-2010, 12:18
Well i already put together a list based on the 8th ed rumours, i wonder however what the changes to frenzy are going to be, just seems to me with random charge movement we are going to see some kind of change.

I dont believe specials will be as limited as you first things when you consider in a 2k game thats still 1000pts so you have enough points for 3 units of chaos knights. I do agree we are going to see alot more dragon ogres if the rumours on heavy cavalry are true.

Its going to a be strange new game for some

Lordsaradain
19-04-2010, 12:19
If the "One save to ruin them all" rumour is true then I'm pretty sure we will see Mark of Tzeentch taken less often, on units anyway.

N1AK
19-04-2010, 12:30
If the "One save to ruin them all" rumour is true then I'm pretty sure we will see Mark of Tzeentch taken less often, on units anyway.

Literally the first thought that came to mind when I thought about how 8th might affect WoC.

Based on the information I've heard from people I trust, it seems WoC will be fine, but will include far more infantry rather than being Cavalry hordes.

Desert Rain
19-04-2010, 12:42
I think WoC are one of the armies that will benefit most/be the least penalised when 8th edition arrives. The rumours of infantry getting better might actually lead to armies of warriors of chaos instead of knights of chaos ;)

Condottiere
19-04-2010, 13:24
Plus I suspect that movement rules might actually increase the mobility for infantry blocks, so Chaos Warriors will be faster on the other side.

Emeraldw
19-04-2010, 13:32
I came to the same conclusion. I had heard special was only 25% though but either way, WoC have the benefit of chaos warriors in core :)

The other thing, that isn't in rumors, is that I have a strong suspicion that challenges will be reworked. Suddenly Chaos can actually get to the tender heroes? :D

There may even be a line (unlikely) That champions are considered "characters" making it even easier to get bonuses.

logan054
19-04-2010, 13:42
It does make you wonder if WoC was written with 8th ed in mind...

KharnTheBetrayer01
19-04-2010, 13:55
So, this "Crush them all" rule, any idea at all how that'll work?

I'd guess different sized models get different rules/ end up more or less effective depending on the foe. Monstrous creature, troll sized creature, Chariot, cavalry, infantry, mini-infantry (Goblins and gnoblars and skaven slaves), swarms...

Given the sheer size of the thing and the fact its giant sized without random attack, what're the chances it'll turn out the Shaggoth given a fair points-cost after all?

This is obviously involving huge guessing, but if a minotaur sized thing get "crush them all", it won't be against similar sized things or bigger. Size restrictions are not unheard of (the rules for killing blow for example)

Could it mean people finally use the Shaggoth again... Lord I hope so, Love that model.

Witchblade
19-04-2010, 14:09
Less magic and cavalry, more infantry. Good.

Depending on how the stepping-up rules will be implemented, marauders with MoK and GW could become sick.

Kurgash
19-04-2010, 14:34
So my vast infantry army of WoC will do so much better? :D YES!!!

Ohhhh does this also somewhat buff horde armies as well?

Emeraldw
19-04-2010, 14:34
Less magic and cavalry, more infantry. Good.

Depending on how the stepping-up rules will be implemented, marauders with MoK and GW could become sick.

I had not thought of that! Was focusing on warriors. Personally I see the interpretation of it no longer being able to wipe out the front (or 1st and 2nd). Front rank wipe outs were like killzones in 4th, they no longer exist. Different systems but I see little reason they would keep something like being able to wipe out ranks so you get no attacks if the game is supposed to be faster and more aggressive.

@Kurgash: Not really. All infantry becomes more powerful and while that does sound like a buff to horde armies, don't forget that the difference in killing power between two units will become more apparent as well with so many more attacks and inability to wipe out ranks so easily.

Asher
19-04-2010, 14:55
If the "One save to ruin them all" rumour is true then I'm pretty sure we will see Mark of Tzeentch taken less often, on units anyway.

Yeah, that's too bad. I still can see Disc Sorcerers with the golden eye flying around though.

Then again, Juggernaught heroes might become more popular, especially if the rumors about the armorsave modifiers are true.


On an other note; seemingly are miscast becomming rarer but more dangerous. Thus I can see a 'pandemonium' + 'black tongue' + 'infernal puppe' combo the more effective and popular.

Emeraldw
19-04-2010, 16:02
random thoughts on lords in combat.

Generally, the power of heroes in 7th is based on their killing power. Vampire heroes can be str 7 and seriously mess with the power of chaos warrior units (lets say with GW for this). But with the new step up, you can't reduce the attack power of the unit, that mighty vampire lord is vulnerable and if only invested in killing power, the vampire is going to go Squish against all those GW attacks. Dark Elf assassins are the finest example of this.

Now, with step up and the potential reduction in magic power, tougher lords become as important as killing power. This makes chaos lords almost more competitive already, and combine them with the enhanced killing power they have and I think chaos lords might finally be worth it, even if only for the T5 and extra wound. Further, if challenges are more important, you want that evil chaos lord wrecking the place!

Finally, a lot of this is based on the idea of charging acting as it does now. If it was changed to be like 40, where you got an offense bonus....

logan054
19-04-2010, 17:01
Honestly i dont know if chaos lords will be all that competitive, they are still a massive points sink, Exalted champions are going to far better than they are now, with only 25% characters other armies are really going to struggle to put down a lord that can compete.

Aethesword is certainly going to see alot more use with the changes to save mods, i think axe of khorne has suddenly become alot more attractive.

selone
19-04-2010, 17:42
The 25 % cap on characetrs as said will be tough for small and I mean small, say 1000-1250. But as you guys have said, fighty lords aren't too necesary and you can still do a sorceor lord + other hero.

It's easy to make 25 % core with WOC and I'd be suprised if many people had probems restricting themselves to 50% special. Units of trolls, knights ogres go from 150-250ish.

I don't really use rare choices for my sins, other than spawn so a limit of 300 points in a 2k army is water off a ducks back to me.

Hopefully 8th ed sees warriors of chaos actually in warriors of chaos lists.

Lord Dralnu
19-04-2010, 18:25
I like the rumor about having magic defense without having to invest in casters. It'll make mono-Khorne armies competitive without the blasphemy of purchasing scroll caddies.

Condottiere
19-04-2010, 18:34
At 1000 points, you probably could squeeze in two characters, one fighter and one wizard.

Agnar the Howler
19-04-2010, 19:05
At 1000 points, you probably could squeeze in two characters, one fighter and one wizard.

1 Exalted hero and 1 Sorcerer, both naked, will leave you with 55pts left to spend on them, at which point you have to decide which one needs the most kit. With the changes to the character system, though, I can only really see the need for 1 hero, either an Exalted Hero with some fancy kit (possibly HoME + GW, being the lethal combo it already is) or a sorcerer in equally fancy kit.

That said, if you're facing something like Tzeentch Daemons, then a regular scroll caddy sets you back by 135pts (of course, if scrolls are left alone) leaving you with a measly 115pts for another hero if you need one, which pays for an Exalted Hero and a shield or another sorcerer with 30pts of kit.

I think the focus is more on a single heroic character at this level, with a good single hero with a nice amount of stuff trouncing the heroes of people who tried to squeeze in a second or third because they couldn't afford any protection, and I can easily see the enchanted shield playing an extremely vital role in hero defence, being cheap and very useful.

logan054
19-04-2010, 19:34
I think you could easily get away with just a lvl2 sorcerer in a 1k game, the stats are not all that bad, slap him on a horse and give him a runeswors and you have a character with pretty good starts as wel a magic user.

inq.serge
19-04-2010, 19:39
25% max on char is a kick in my right nut.

15% max on rare is a kick in my left nut.

Ouch GW, Ouch.

Condottiere
19-04-2010, 20:17
I've just calculated it out, 15% fits perfectly for the High Elves to have one of each, Eagle and RBT, per thousand.

Null_Sheen
20-04-2010, 02:22
My current rares are
MOS Giant
2 Spawn

2250 15% rare means that i just have to drop he MoS of my Giant.

Cant take a Hellcannon and a MoS Warshrine any more though have to drop he mark there too.

Putty
20-04-2010, 03:50
I think WoC are one of the armies that will benefit most/be the least penalised when 8th edition arrives. The rumours of infantry getting better might actually lead to armies of warriors of chaos instead of knights of chaos ;)

or sorcerers of chaos.

:shifty:

Valtiel
20-04-2010, 08:32
I'm glad to see that it might be 50% special instead of 25%. Not because I field Knight armies but because I was afraid each army would look the same. Now I can even have Dragon Ogres along with Knights! Great!:D

Well, I look forward to the new army. The ability to make an army where I don't have to worry about magic defense? Awesome! An army where Warriors will perhaps work wonders? Great!

Now I can only wish that challenges become better. If they work out so that challenges become more important and really awesome I think it will make me love the WoC rules.

Memnos
20-04-2010, 08:37
I'm going to paint up some more trolls for my Throgg army.

Zaustus
20-04-2010, 13:55
I'm kind of excited by the possibility of not needing to take a scroll caddy, though I think in larger games it'd still be a good safety net to have one.

My current 2250 list actually benefits more than it loses from 8th edition, since I run a lot of infantry currently. Sadly, though, it won't quite work if the % changes happen as rumored (for example, right now I run a Hellcannon and a MoS Warshrine, and since I run Banner of the Gods, I'd have to drop my scroll caddy to fit under the character % cap), so I'm thinking of trying to change my regular game size to 2500. That would let me play my army just as it is now, plus add another unit of Knights or something. Since those are models I already have, it would be a painless transition for me.

Roark
20-04-2010, 23:49
If WoC magic defence ability is somehow augmented by the new edition, it would be awesome. Imagine being able to take a combat list instead of Wizards of Chaos!

Asher
20-04-2010, 23:57
It seems that Dispel Dice won't be dependent on the mages you have but on the roll of your opponent. Thus an all combat force is much more valiabe than before.

Then again, the new magic rumors make Lore of Tzeentch quite alluring. Pandemonium might become very deadly, by increasing chances of miscast which in turn will be more devastating.

Also apparently you can use any number of dice for a spell, and with the apparent abundace of those (on avreage), Infernal Gateway might send even more enemies to the realm of chaos than today.

Chain
21-04-2010, 02:01
I assume Save will not be done on a single d6 anymore or Characters on Monsters are going to be pulverised by shooting even more than now


I'm not sure what to think of these new rules yet, They did at least remove the autodispel from the DS

15% to rare is a bit to low imo 20% would feel more right though rare means rare

50% special seem fair as does 25%+ core

25% characters :/ 30% would have been better imo


the good part og 1 save to rule = no 1+ AS + 4+ Ward + 4+ reg, if they now save on either a d10 or 2 d6 great if not ... (just read the rules here the first time if wondering why writting this much)

nobsb
21-04-2010, 02:43
If WoC magic defence ability is somehow augmented by the new edition, it would be awesome. Imagine being able to take a combat list instead of Wizards of Chaos!

Before 7th came out I never took any casters. Now my WoC is caster heavy just to keep other armies from destroying me. I will admit I love the Level 4 Tzeentch on a disc, but it doesn't make it right. I have become what I hate! A magic user. So I hope the rumors are true and I can shelve those casters.

However I don't like the sound of nerfing my Chaos Knights. I am that guy. I bring 3 units, MoK (War Banner), MoN (Rage banner), MoT (Blasted Standard). I love them!!! By turn 2 or 3 if I have set it up right I am smashing the enemy's battle lines and running them down. Heavy Calvary is expensive so it's not like I don't take a risk in bringing it... bolt throwers, cannons, magic, gun lines, etc.

I also hate Chaos chariots, the models suck a greater daemons..... I also don't picture a Chaos army terrorizing the Empire riding chariots. Dragons, yes. Juggys, yes, but not chariots.

mrtn
21-04-2010, 09:45
I assume Save will not be done on a single d6 anymore or Characters on Monsters are going to be pulverised by shooting even more than now

Isn't that the whole point of the change, that you can hurt the enemy easier? I'd be very surprised if you'd see that change.

ashc
21-04-2010, 09:48
They'll just change it to the same as the 40k system; you only take one save, choose the best you have got, they don't stack (one save after the other).

simples.

danny-d-b
21-04-2010, 09:58
well that nurfs the pendent of invers ward saves quite nicly

I'm liking the new rules rumors, but fell that it will kill my festus army as festus+puppet carrier+BSB is quite a lot of points, and with less caraters on the board, there is going to be less need for burbs

so I think I'm either going to go MOS or go back to my empire way, there cheap hero's should mean I can get a genral, a wizzard and a BSB in my army and still be within my 25%

logan054
21-04-2010, 10:12
If WoC magic defence ability is somehow augmented by the new edition, it would be awesome. Imagine being able to take a combat list instead of Wizards of Chaos!

It would be like using my list now just with another exalted champion rather than a scroll caddie and the great part is i wont get blasted to tinny little bits by magic!!!!


Well.....



hopefully........


I think the thing i love the most is all these rumours that make chaos warriors viable, i mean strike in I order on the charge!! damn, i feel like a cheating elf! this is really going to make a massive difference to my list, all i need to hear now is that halberds own cavalry and im going to be laughing all the way to the bank :D

Havock
21-04-2010, 12:59
If the "One save to ruin them all" rumour is true then I'm pretty sure we will see Mark of Tzeentch taken less often, on units anyway.

Not really, it's still fairly cheap and can aid against the stuff it is most used for anyway: armorsave-ignoring attacks.

Less armorsave modifiers makes knights happy, however, it also means their S5 weapons might not be that awesome anymore. With less need for wizards, however, it should be easy to stuff a character in with a flail or, say, etherblade :)

I still propose waiting for the final rules.

Lord Khabal
21-04-2010, 13:10
Yey to combat armies, nay to my dragon that i love so much and cant take it at 2000 pts. As far as characters go, I still think the sorcerer lord is viable. enchanted shield + blasphemous amulet + collar of khorne + spell familiar + mark of tzeentch is quite nice.
If there is only one save, then characters will be a lot more fragile though... Another 40k"zation" of WHFB

logan054
21-04-2010, 13:20
I cant say im all that upset by the loss of multiple wardsaves, i mean, oh no, when i play against plaguebearers they dont get a ward save and regen save, what a shame that is.....

Emeraldw
21-04-2010, 15:57
Yey to combat armies, nay to my dragon that i love so much and cant take it at 2000 pts. As far as characters go, I still think the sorcerer lord is viable. enchanted shield + blasphemous amulet + collar of khorne + spell familiar + mark of tzeentch is quite nice.
If there is only one save, then characters will be a lot more fragile though... Another 40k"zation" of WHFB

However, supposedly modifiers for armor saves are going to be less than they are now. A str 6 guy isn't able to turn a 2+ save into a 50/50 chance anymore to my understanding. It might be weapon dependent, rather than str dependent as current. In which case, heroes with armor saves will survive more and that is very good for Warrior heroes.

Havock
21-04-2010, 16:13
Yey to combat armies, nay to my dragon that i love so much and cant take it at 2000 pts. As far as characters go, I still think the sorcerer lord is viable. enchanted shield + blasphemous amulet + collar of khorne + spell familiar + mark of tzeentch is quite nice.
If there is only one save, then characters will be a lot more fragile though... Another 40k"zation" of WHFB

Our characters less so: we suffer from a lack of decent wardsaves anyway; we still pay through our noses for them, however and they will be more vulnerable than ever. Unless the armorsave mods stack in our favor ;)

inq.serge
21-04-2010, 16:17
, heroes with armor saves will survive more and that is very good for Warrior heroes.

Not to mention 2+ Save core units......

Arkfatalis
21-04-2010, 17:47
I reckon that if the spear rumor is true then WOC will probably see spears for marauders when their next army book comes out. I'm also worried about the rare limit as it means at 2000 points I can't use a giant and Hellcannon. Also I doubt alot of the named characters will be used as most games are at <2250 points and that would essentially leave you with only one weak hero as well as the named. I think Vilitch could rule next edition. I doubt we'll be seeing alot of dragons next edition, but I think this is one of the main reason they did it. Bye bye double dragon builds.

logan054
21-04-2010, 18:43
I must be reading a totally different book to you because i thought you just something about weak heroes in the WoC book....

Agnar the Howler
21-04-2010, 21:06
I must be reading a totally different book to you because i thought you just something about weak heroes in the WoC book....

I think we both need to get in contact with GW, as I too think there's been a faulty batch of books or two that have gone out.

Roark
22-04-2010, 05:22
No he's right. 4-5 S7 hits @WS7 just doesn't cut it anymore for a hero-level character... WEEEEEAAAK!! I mean, that's only a -4 armour save modifier! Pa-thetic.

logan054
22-04-2010, 06:12
lol, yeah i knew, i guess i had better put my patheic WoC on ebay then :rolleyes:

Arkfatalis
22-04-2010, 11:50
Yes but although there is a massive reduction in armour saves now, there is a rumor that the armour saves will be changed and that it will depend on the weapon rather than the strength. I know the hero isn't weak but if you can't afford to kit him out he wont last long.I'm not saying that WOC heroes are weak I'm trying to say that a hero with worst stats, will be worth less points so they will be able to buy alot more magical equipment. I know a 2+ armour save is great, but as I think they are over hauling the armour save/strength modifiers this may affect WOC in a negative way. If armour save modifiers are made easier to get next edition WOC will become terribly over priced.

Arkfatalis
22-04-2010, 11:58
Also if the heavy cav movement is implemented then KOC will become too slow and less of the hammer they are now.

mrtn
22-04-2010, 11:58
If armour save modifiers are made easier to get next edition WOC will become terribly over priced.
My impression was that armour saves modifiers will become harder to get.

Odin
22-04-2010, 12:15
I think 8th edition might make me look at my Chaos army again. Yes, I'll still be annoyed that it's been stripped of its daemons and beastmen, but I can live with that if my infantry (particularly my warriors) are made more viable. 90% of the Chaos lists I see are just made up of Knights and very little else, but I'm just not going to do that.

I do hope the rumour about heavy cavalry not being able to march is true - it's realistic and alsohelps make the medium cavalry like Boar Boyz a bit more useful by comparison. I do think a lot of people are overreacting about the effects - you'll still be in charge range in the second turn most of the time, third at the most. (depending on exactly what "charge range" is!).

I don't think the 25% limit on characters is so bad, even in small games. We have the advantage that our Exalted Heroes only need a few points worth of basic equipment to make them very effective in close combat. By comparison a Woodf Elf hero really needs to max out on upgrades to keep them alive or give them enough killing power. And many of our unit champions are more than a match for some enemy heroes.

I think my army will benefit from being forced to spend less on characters, more points on Warriors so I can have three ranks of them instead of two. Even if we're charged by enemy knights there should be enough left to cause carnage with their great weapons (depending on whether great weapons have much of an armour save modifier any more!).

duffybear1988
22-04-2010, 12:19
I dont think the slowing down of chaos knights will be a bad thing - it merely means that your knights keep pace with your infantry instead of rushing forward and killing stuff while the infantry move at a leisurely pace behind... its much more fitting that it happens this way as mounted knights in full plate armour traditionally didnt have the ability to move at great speeds for prolonged periods of time as the horses got tired quickly. Also tactically its much more sound to have the heavy cavalry sit back as a deterent for other weaker enemy infantry, especially if you are packing warriors of chaos as your infantry force.

Traditionally battles that were fought and won primarily by heavy cavalry are few and far between in history.

People wanted a more tactical fantasy game and with the rumoured changes to heavy cavalry now they have what they wished for, just not how they wanted it. Also im guessing that lances will become much more viable for chaos knights as on the charge they are bound to have greater armour penetration than the basic chaos swords.

logan054
22-04-2010, 13:51
Yes but although there is a massive reduction in armour saves now, there is a rumor that the armour saves will be changed and that it will depend on the weapon rather than the strength.

I dont think it will be like 40k ;)



I think 8th edition might make me look at my Chaos army again. Yes, I'll still be annoyed that it's been stripped of its daemons and beastmen, but I can live with that if my infantry (particularly my warriors) are made more viable. 90% of the Chaos lists I see are just made up of Knights and very little else, but I'm just not going to do that.

Trust me your not the only one, GW is just damn lucky a army of pure mortals looks pretty damn cool on the table when you dont use the current marauders models ;)

Scallat
22-04-2010, 14:12
I must be reading a totally different book to you because i thought you just something about weak heroes in the WoC book....

Warriors of chaos do have relatively weak heroes. They have a good stat-line but they're expensive and don't have good enough magic item choices. There's a real lack of good, cheap magic item combos for heroes in the chaos book. Just because there isn't much in the way of cheap weapons or defensive items.

logan054
22-04-2010, 14:28
While i agree they dont have the greatest magic items they still have plenty of viable builds that more than capable of dealing with enemy hereos, it really depends what you are comparing them to.

For example i have found a exalted on a juggernaugt with flail and regen capable of dealings with most things, good save, high strength on first round, regen and the steeds isnt all that bad either.

Exalted with helm of many eyes and great weapon is yet another good but cheap combo.

Odin
22-04-2010, 14:29
My main concern is that I haven't heard any rumours yet about changes to Frenzy. I really hope we get some kind of control over frenzied troops, as I hate the very silly tactic of using warhounds to block LOS almost as much as I hate watching my main units chasing fast cavalry around the battlefield for 6 turns.

Frenzy definitely needs a downside, but at the moment it's just silly. Personally I'd make it +1A in just the first round of a combat, but allow to you take a Ld test to try to restrain from charging.

Lordsaradain
22-04-2010, 14:29
Warriors of chaos do have relatively weak heroes. They have a good stat-line but they're expensive and don't have good enough magic item choices. There's a real lack of good, cheap magic item combos for heroes in the chaos book. Just because there isn't much in the way of cheap weapons or defensive items.

So what? An exalted with a sheild is a great fighter and has good survivability as he is.
Theres no need to give him alots of magic items, its just a points sink IMO.
But the +1S sword for 20pts is pretty good.
Give him talisman of protection and MoT and you've got a 5+ ward save too.

Odin
22-04-2010, 14:30
While i agree they dont have the greatest magic items they still have plenty of viable builds that more than capable of dealing with enemy hereos, it really depends what you are comparing them to.

For example i have found a exalted on a juggernaugt with flail and regen capable of dealings with most things, good save, high strength on first round, regen and the steeds isnt all that bad either.

Exalted with helm of many eyes and great weapon is yet another good but cheap combo.

Armour of Damnation isn't as cheap as it used to be, but is still a pretty effective defence against most close combat attacks, and works well with a great weapon.

logan054
22-04-2010, 14:31
My main concern is that I haven't heard any rumours yet about changes to Frenzy. I really hope we get some kind of control over frenzied troops, as I hate the very silly tactic of using warhounds to block LOS almost as much as I hate watching my main units chasing fast cavalry around the battlefield for 6 turns.

Frenzy definitely needs a downside, but at the moment it's just silly. Personally I'd make it +1A in just the first round of a combat, but allow to you take a Ld test to try to restrain from charging.

I cant imagine frenzy will remain the same if we are moving to random charge distances, perhaps they will just immune to psyology or something, hopefully they will remove it from mounts because really, why is my horse really angry just because i worship khorne....


Armour of Damnation isn't as cheap as it used to be, but is still a pretty effective defence against most close combat attacks, and works well with a great weapon.

Well i just listed the first few things that came to mind without having to get out of my chair to pick up the army book :p

willowdark
22-04-2010, 14:37
Iwhy is my horse really angry just because i worship khorne....


Because you spur him that much harder. ;)

Odin
22-04-2010, 14:39
I cant imagine frenzy will remain the same if we are moving to random charge distances, perhaps they will just immune to psyology or something, hopefully they will remove it from mounts because really, why is my horse really angry just because i worship khorne....

Yeah, that is ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact that I have never used it. I always, always forget that rule, simply because it's so absurd.


Well i just listed the first few things that came to mind without having to get out of my chair to pick up the army book :p

Indeed, just goes to show we've got enough decent options to be getting on with.

I would like to see the "parry" rule for shields work with normal magic weapons as well, because it the moment taking a magic weapon on foot is not very tempting as it halves the benefit of your shield. And that applies to all armies of course.

Scallat
22-04-2010, 15:25
While i agree they dont have the greatest magic items they still have plenty of viable builds that more than capable of dealing with enemy hereos, it really depends what you are comparing them to.

For example i have found a exalted on a juggernaugt with flail and regen capable of dealings with most things, good save, high strength on first round, regen and the steeds isnt all that bad either.

Exalted with helm of many eyes and great weapon is yet another good but cheap combo.

I agree with the helm of many eyes build (if you're ok with being stupid LD8 - which I'm not). But that herald on a jugger build is over 230 points. I mean, he's good and all. That's how I take my heralds (more or less). But I still think overall Chaos non-wizard Heroes arn't perticularly appealing.

Especially considering how awesome I can make a Vampire, High or Dark Elf, or Saurus hero. Hell, Black Orc characters can be pretty amazing. Because unlike Chaos they actually have good magic items.


So what? An exalted with a sheild is a great fighter and has good survivability as he is.
Theres no need to give him alots of magic items, its just a points sink IMO.
But the +1S sword for 20pts is pretty good.
Give him talisman of protection and MoT and you've got a 5+ ward save too.

And he comes in at 160 points. For a 3+ save a 5+ ward and 4 strength 6 attacks.

A herald of khorne can do 3S6 with hatred and the same save(s) for 115. And I can get S7-flaming for a pittance. And I can do that multiple times. And he causes fear. And he doesn't flee. And he buffs his unit. And he doesn't have to challange. And he has Killing Blow.

Hell for that many points I can get a Dark Elf Assassin with 5-7 killing blow attacks.

logan054
22-04-2010, 16:48
I agree with the helm of many eyes build (if you're ok with being stupid LD8 - which I'm not). But that herald on a jugger build is over 230 points. I mean, he's good and all. That's how I take my heralds (more or less). But I still think overall Chaos non-wizard Heroes arn't perticularly appealing.

I admit they dont have the best items in the game but it certainly dosnt mean they are going to end up dogmeat, axe of khorne is a great one on a hero, even more so if hes on a jugger, your welcome to take you chances against 8Kb attacks, its also amazing the difference having that ws7 has in some many fights.


And he comes in at 160 points. For a 3+ save a 5+ ward and 4 strength 6 attacks.

I can get a exalted for the same, MoK 2+ save. 5 strength 6 attacks, knock of that MoK and im actually cheaper and the difference if you get a save of 6 as well as a 5+. Now factor in 8th ed which is what this topic is about, you dont get two saves. So actuallly the Exalted is better, with MoK more attacks higher WS, without cheaper, same stats just higher WS.

I made mine just using common magic items as well.



Yeah, that is ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact that I have never used it. I always, always forget that rule, simply because it's so absurd.

Well its rather nice when you jugger gets a extra KB attack :)




Indeed, just goes to show we've got enough decent options to be getting on with.

I would like to see the "parry" rule for shields work with normal magic weapons as well, because it the moment taking a magic weapon on foot is not very tempting as it halves the benefit of your shield. And that applies to all armies of course.

Well i wouldnt say decent but we certainly have enough choices to make a reasonable character, it would be nice if magic weapons didnt lose the mundane rules actually, would solve the problem of the parry rule

Odin
22-04-2010, 16:53
I admit they dont have the best items in the game but it certainly dosnt mean they are going to end up dogmeat, axe of khorne is a great one on a hero, even more so if hes on a jugger, your welcome to take you chances against 8Kb attacks, its also amazing the difference having that ws7 has in some many fights.

Well its rather nice when you jugger gets a extra KB attack :)


Since when did WoC Juggers have Killing Blow? I thought that was just the DoC ones? Or were you talking about the DoC ones?

logan054
22-04-2010, 17:02
lol, for some reason i thought they did, havent used my WoC in a while :p

Odin
22-04-2010, 17:04
lol, for some reason i thought they did, havent used my WoC in a while :p

Annoying and odd that they have different rules. It's not as if the books were released years apart.

nobsb
23-04-2010, 02:37
If 8th makes WoC a more infantry based army that would kill their playability. The shooty armies would wipe them out before they get across the table. I could live with Knights not being able to march. That would still suck, but is doable.

Djekar
23-04-2010, 05:25
And he comes in at 160 points. For a 3+ save a 5+ ward and 4 strength 6 attacks.

A herald of khorne can do 3S6 with hatred and the same save(s) for 115. And I can get S7-flaming for a pittance. And I can do that multiple times. And he causes fear. And he doesn't flee. And he buffs his unit. And he doesn't have to challange. And he has Killing Blow.

This just in: DoC are the epitome of balance in 7th edition. More details at 11.

snottlebocket
23-04-2010, 08:00
Annoying and odd that they have different rules. It's not as if the books were released years apart.

For what it's worth Jugger's used to have killing blow or killing blow'ish attacks in the past.

logan054
23-04-2010, 08:37
you mean the trample attacks on the charge, had the same rule in 40k as well, i remember bloodletters also used to have regeneration


Annoying and odd that they have different rules. It's not as if the books were released years apart.

lol i know, i know, rule on the 8th ed army book ;) i think the other wierd thing is the lack of magical attacks and a lack of a flying unit, but anyways i think thats another topic in itself

LordoftheBrassThrone
23-04-2010, 10:59
A GW armed exalted with HoME is nowhere near as good as he used to be, which no one seems to realize. He depended on pretty much killing everyone in base contact so there were no attacks back. But now they will attack back anyway, and if they have GWs as well.... 1 dead exalted hero. He is relying on a 4+ armour to keep him alive, and even basic troops will be able to bring enough attacks to bear to bring him down in probably two rounds of combat..... Mathhammer time!
Now lets say he is fighting empire halberdiers. 4 attacks hitting on 3s = 2.67 hits, round off to 3. Killing on 2s, so kills 3. Assuming they fight back in two ranks (might be 3, not sure), they get 10 + 1 for the champion, take 3 for the models killed (not even sure if it still works like that tbh). so 8 attacks hitting on 4s, 4 hits, wounding on 4s, 2 wounds. 5+ armour save, may save 1. If he does he has killed 6 halberdiers at 8? points each, for a grand total of 48 points.
Hero's will now have to be taken for their survivability, rather than killability.

LordoftheBrassThrone
23-04-2010, 11:02
A herald of khorne can do 3S6 with hatred and the same save(s) for 115. And I can get S7-flaming for a pittance. And I can do that multiple times. And he causes fear. And he doesn't flee. And he buffs his unit. And he doesn't have to challange. And he has Killing Blow.

But a herald can only really be used within a unit of bloodletters. Who do not need an awesome combat monster, they are scary enough as they are. If he tries to operate on his own (unless against other characters) he will pop off in the first combat due to instability.

logan054
23-04-2010, 12:29
A GW armed exalted with HoME is nowhere near as good as he used to be, which no one seems to realize. He depended on pretty much killing everyone in base contact so there were no attacks back. But now they will attack back anyway, and if they have GWs as well.... 1 dead exalted hero. He is relying on a 4+ armour to keep him alive, and even basic troops will be able to bring enough attacks to bear to bring him down in probably two rounds of combat..... Mathhammer time!
Now lets say he is fighting empire halberdiers. 4 attacks hitting on 3s = 2.67 hits, round off to 3. Killing on 2s, so kills 3. Assuming they fight back in two ranks (might be 3, not sure), they get 10 + 1 for the champion, take 3 for the models killed (not even sure if it still works like that tbh). so 8 attacks hitting on 4s, 4 hits, wounding on 4s, 2 wounds. 5+ armour save, may save 1. If he does he has killed 6 halberdiers at 8? points each, for a grand total of 48 points.
Hero's will now have to be taken for their survivability, rather than killability.

I see one major problem with this, you forgot to take into account the unit the exalted is, lets say i dont know, a unit of khorne marauders with great weapons, so lets say thats 8+ a champion, so 17 attacks ( so lets say 11 hits) killing on a 2+ (s0 8/9 kills). also you hit on a 5+ because a exalted is ws7 and you are ws3, mind you comparison isnt really valid because it would be my unit + hero vs your unit and your champion vs my champion or my hero vs your champion and my unit vs your unit, and yes attacks would be directed at the champion. But another thing is we dont really know how the weapons are actually changing, maybe halberds will be +1 strength, maybe they will just have a save mod, same thing with great weapons.


A herald of khorne can do 3S6 with hatred and the same save(s) for 115. And I can get S7-flaming for a pittance. And I can do that multiple times. And he causes fear. And he doesn't flee. And he buffs his unit. And he doesn't have to challange. And he has Killing Blow
Yes because we want daemons to become the new gold standard dont we :rolleyes: I think most characters you compare to a herald of khorne are going to be considered underpowered, i wonder why that is....

snottlebocket
23-04-2010, 13:09
I see one major problem with this, you forgot to take into account the unit the exalted is, lets say i dont know, a unit of khorne marauders with great weapons, so lets say thats 8+ a champion, so 17 attacks ( so lets say 11 hits) killing on a 2+ (s0 8/9 kills). also you hit on a 5+ because a exalted is ws7 and you are ws3, mind you comparison isnt really valid because it would be my unit + hero vs your unit and your champion vs my champion or my hero vs your champion and my unit vs your unit, and yes attacks would be directed at the champion. But another thing is we dont really know how the weapons are actually changing, maybe halberds will be +1 strength, maybe they will just have a save mod, same thing with great weapons.


Yes because we want daemons to become the new gold standard dont we :rolleyes: I think most characters you compare to a herald of khorne are going to be considered underpowered, i wonder why that is....

Did anyone ever take exhalted's with great weapons anyway when they can take flails?

Now more than ever you don't want great weapons. Marauder iniative is above average, chaos character iniative is fantastic. Flails and halberds all the way. Sure some troops are faster but I4 still beats a lot of troops to the punch. And it beats them to the punch hard when you're swinging an aweful lot of (potentially frenzied) flails and halberds.

Odin
23-04-2010, 13:28
If 8th makes WoC a more infantry based army that would kill their playability. The shooty armies would wipe them out before they get across the table. I could live with Knights not being able to march. That would still suck, but is doable.

ARRRRGH!!! So by making WoC infantry armies more viable, they make WoC less viable?

Seriously, you could actually think before posting. Just a suggestion.

Everything points to WoC infantry being far more effective than they currently are. As you say, the knights being unable to march is not that much of an issue. So, a huge boost to our poor infantry, and a minor nerf to our very powerful cavalry... how is this a bad thing?

snottlebocket
23-04-2010, 13:42
ARRRRGH!!! So by making WoC infantry armies more viable, they make WoC less viable?

Seriously, you could actually think before posting. Just a suggestion.

Everything points to WoC infantry being far more effective than they currently are. As you say, the knights being unable to march is not that much of an issue. So, a huge boost to our poor infantry, and a minor nerf to our very powerful cavalry... how is this a bad thing?

Don't forget that we already had some of the best monstrous infantry in the game, which are only getting better.

We got great weapon wielding, armoured (khornate) ogres and dragon ogres and trolls that mutate into something nastier with every two regeneration saves made. All of those units will keep their marching abbilities as our enemy's cavalry loses theirs. At the same time they'll apparently gain crushing attacks against smaller models.

I was already running 2 units of knights, a unit of khornate ogres and a unit of dragon ogres. I'm seriously considering swapping out one of the knight units for more ogres or dragon ogres. (or trolls, the new models are just so cool)

syrme
23-04-2010, 14:00
Don't forget that we already had some of the best monstrous infantry in the game, which are only getting better.

We got great weapon wielding, armoured (khornate) ogres and dragon ogres and trolls that mutate into something nastier with every two regeneration saves made. All of those units will keep their marching abbilities as our enemy's cavalry loses theirs. At the same time they'll apparently gain crushing attacks against smaller models.

I was already running 2 units of knights, a unit of khornate ogres and a unit of dragon ogres. I'm seriously considering swapping out one of the knight units for more ogres or dragon ogres. (or trolls, the new models are just so cool)

I am planning something similar: 3 units of warriors, one troll, 2 Dragon Ogres as the base of the army.

Emeraldw
23-04-2010, 14:18
ARRRRGH!!! So by making WoC infantry armies more viable, they make WoC less viable?

Seriously, you could actually think before posting. Just a suggestion.

Everything points to WoC infantry being far more effective than they currently are. As you say, the knights being unable to march is not that much of an issue. So, a huge boost to our poor infantry, and a minor nerf to our very powerful cavalry... how is this a bad thing?

I think he is saying, that the best counter to gun lines was fast moving cavalry. Without the ability to march, WoC best counter to those heavy gun units is not as good at it. The infantry will be shot up even easier than before.

Though, if they gunline and with the new found power of infantry, how many warriors need to get there to crush them? :D

kyuzo
23-04-2010, 15:39
I think he is saying, that the best counter to gun lines was fast moving cavalry. Without the ability to march, WoC best counter to those heavy gun units is not as good at it. The infantry will be shot up even easier than before.

Though, if they gunline and with the new found power of infantry, how many warriors need to get there to crush them?

Time to drop the harpies(insert other) behind the infantry since there wont be anymore effective magic phase to kill them, and shoot the foot models to death. Not to mention how stupidly boring WoC is going to be to play. Who wants to play every game that is point warriors forward and move.

Odin
23-04-2010, 15:49
Not to mention how stupidly boring WoC is going to be to play. Who wants to play every game that is point warriors forward and move.

Nobody has to! If they want to have an all-cavalry and monster army they can. The very minor nerf on heavy cav is not a big issue, and monster units seem to be getting a significant boost.

Personally I'll be going for a combined approach (as always) with a solid core of infantry to advance on the enemy, with cavalry going for a flank attack or able to threaten a counter-charge. That approach looks like being far more effective. What on earth is the problem with that?

mrtn
23-04-2010, 15:51
Odin, you're not supposed to be reasonable, you're supposed to complain. :)

Personally I think WoC will be one of the winners from 8th edition.

logan054
23-04-2010, 16:41
I think he is saying, that the best counter to gun lines was fast moving cavalry. Without the ability to march, WoC best counter to those heavy gun units is not as good at it. The infantry will be shot up even easier than before.

MoN marauder horsemen certainly fit the bill

Emeraldw
23-04-2010, 16:50
MoN marauder horsemen certainly fit the bill

I was just trying to interpret. But your right, that could certainly work.

Heck, if you really want to surprise someone, have Valkyia charge from inside the unit at them.

inq.serge
23-04-2010, 17:05
Wonder if a characters chariot counts toward char% or spec% ?




Personally I think WoC will be one of the winners from 8th edition.

But I'm building a monster/cav heavy list.

All in all it's just an, other kick in the balls.

snottlebocket
23-04-2010, 17:50
Wonder if a characters chariot counts toward char% or spec% ?



But I'm building a monster/cav heavy list.

All in all it's just an, other kick in the balls.

Probably character %. Right now the biggest advantage of chariot mounts for chars is that you get chariots without using special slots.

inq.serge
23-04-2010, 19:16
Hmmm, technicaly, I could have more special units then before in huge games? Or which gives most for a expensive unit army like WoC; Special slots or Spec% ?

My DoW are overexcited of joy for the Spec%, anyhow.


Also, If I use Regiments of Renown in a chaos army, and the unit uses 2 kinds of slots, what does it count as for %?

Condottiere
23-04-2010, 19:19
Which unit is that? Maneaters? Dragon? Or Dark Emissary?

inq.serge
23-04-2010, 19:25
Dark Emissary.

(Actually, any unit that takes 2 different kinds of slots, 'cause, DoW are full of them, and I didn't want to start a new tread).

Condottiere
23-04-2010, 19:30
DoW are compatible with the Seventh, but if slots are discarded, probably not in the Eighth. Without actually having BRB8 in front of me, I can't say how they'd fit in.

The Dark Emissary takes both a Rare and a Character slot, and if I had to rule on it, I'd say he was a character, and you'd have to deduct his points from that allocation.

Odin
23-04-2010, 20:30
But I'm building a monster/cav heavy list.

All in all it's just an, other kick in the balls.

The problem is, everyone is. Every Chaos list I've seen seems to consist of a few Marauder Cavalry units to fulfil the Core requirement, then loads of Knights or Dragon Ogres. Now there's no reason why those lists shouldn't be viable (and I see nothing to suggest they won't be). But the core of a Chaos army is generally supposed to be the infantry, and it looks like players fielding those lists will no longer be penalised for doing so.

kyuzo
23-04-2010, 20:47
The problem is, everyone is. Every Chaos list I've seen seems to consist of a few Marauder Cavalry units to fulfil the Core requirement, then loads of Knights or Dragon Ogres. Now there's no reason why those lists shouldn't be viable (and I see nothing to suggest they won't be). But the core of a Chaos army is generally supposed to be the infantry, and it looks like players fielding those lists will no longer be penalised for doing so.

An infantry list will be just as viable in the new edition as it is in the old edition. There is nothing special that is going to make them suddenly better(hint: nothing is penalizing them now that wont be in next edition). Be ready for lists to start taking 5 groups of knights in 2000 point lists.

Scallat
23-04-2010, 21:08
Yeah, I agree, you're still paying 16 points per model for a Chaos Warrior unit that's going to make it to combat at half strength and then either lose combat or fail to break the opponent then get flank charged and lose the combat.

If Chaos Warriors arn't a good choice now (and they're not) there's no reason to assume they'll be a better choice in 8th.

Havock
23-04-2010, 23:05
The problem is, everyone is. Every Chaos list I've seen seems to consist of a few Marauder Cavalry units to fulfil the Core requirement, then loads of Knights or Dragon Ogres. Now there's no reason why those lists shouldn't be viable (and I see nothing to suggest they won't be). But the core of a Chaos army is generally supposed to be the infantry, and it looks like players fielding those lists will no longer be penalised for doing so.

Any infantry list is, and will be, even more dependant on mages.

Odin
23-04-2010, 23:56
An infantry list will be just as viable in the new edition as it is in the old edition. There is nothing special that is going to make them suddenly better(hint: nothing is penalizing them now that wont be in next edition). Be ready for lists to start taking 5 groups of knights in 2000 point lists.

What, so infantry always getting two ranks worth of attacks isn't going to make them better? The rumour about musicians possibly making infantry faster won't make them better? The slots are supposedly not disappearing, so that would mean 4 units of knights max, which is what everyone and his dog are taking at the moment anyway. Armour saves rumoured to be more effective, so infantry possibly more resilient. Fewer high powered characters who can carve through an infantry unit, negating their static CR. Scenario objectives that only certain units can claim (Core infantry with banners seeming a strong rumour)

It's impossible to know exactly what all the changes will do overall, but it seems pretty much certain that infantry will come out of this stronger, and the fighting in two ranks thing makes Warriors potentially devastating.


Any infantry list is, and will be, even more dependant on mages.

Why?

Witchblade
24-04-2010, 00:11
An infantry list will be just as viable in the new edition as it is in the old edition. There is nothing special that is going to make them suddenly better(hint: nothing is penalizing them now that wont be in next edition). Be ready for lists to start taking 5 groups of knights in 2000 point lists.


If Chaos Warriors arn't a good choice now (and they're not) there's no reason to assume they'll be a better choice in 8th.
Seriously :wtf:. Have you read the rumours at all?

Warriors might well receive the biggest boost of all units in Warhammer when 8th comes out.

kyuzo
24-04-2010, 00:38
I would not expect fighting in 2 ranks to be true at all. Warriors can still chop up most units in combat, this was never a problem for them. The part that makes warriors so weak will remain. They will be marchblocked and shot to death or to the point where they wont have a big enough impact.

I would actually make the argument that these changes will make it even harder for warriors. Why? We lose out on the ability to go strong magic+elite units. Since we have no shooting; our army is reliant on magic to take out support units/shooting units.

Witchblade
24-04-2010, 02:48
No march for heavy cavalry => less knights.
Always strike in I order => less knights.
Stepping up => less knights.
Need infantry + banner to take objectives => less knights.

I don't see how 8th would end the wizards of chaos story either. We have great items that cheaply boost our PD, the ability to modify the supposedly horrendous upcoming miscast table, and +1 to cast from Tzeentch.

inq.serge
24-04-2010, 08:01
If the Puppet wasn't compulsory before, she's now.

Black tongue seem to be worth taking now (even more than before, we'll just have to hope there's a "all your wizards die or suffer some wounds" miscast).

duffybear1988
24-04-2010, 12:51
I would not expect fighting in 2 ranks to be true at all. Warriors can still chop up most units in combat, this was never a problem for them. The part that makes warriors so weak will remain. They will be marchblocked and shot to death or to the point where they wont have a big enough impact.

I would actually make the argument that these changes will make it even harder for warriors. Why? We lose out on the ability to go strong magic+elite units. Since we have no shooting; our army is reliant on magic to take out support units/shooting units.


Well we dont know if march blocking will be changed do we? I hope it does get altered as its just silly that a fully ranked up unit of 18 warriors cant march because a few human archers are near them... stupid rules.

inq.serge
24-04-2010, 18:28
A thing many people forgot in this thread is the rumour that killing blow will affect creatures of same size and smaller.

Manticores, anyone?

Witchblade
24-04-2010, 18:39
It will probably not be worth it to send a manticore with lord on top into a monster that it can't handle without KB and hope you score a KB. If you do not get lucky, the manticore will get smashed and you lose the lord + manticore. The risk is far too high.

Thus, Manticores will still suck.

Note that the story is different for DE, as they can put a relatively cheap master on the manticore and the manticore gets hatred.

inq.serge
24-04-2010, 19:15
Or a hydra. (Cauldron gives KB)

nightsrage
24-04-2010, 21:09
It makes me upseet hat DE can still take 2 Hydras with the 15% rumor for rares in a 2350+ point game. WAY to cheap in points. In a 3000 point game that is 450 points for rares. No more duel large monsters for anyone ACCEPT DE and their Hydra...

Witchblade
24-04-2010, 21:32
That relates to WoC in 8th Ed... how?

nightsrage
24-04-2010, 21:35
It is a comparison in which we will not be able to field 2 large monsters while some competitors will. Also, look above the hydra was just mentioned. Seems relevant to me.

snottlebocket
24-04-2010, 21:43
It is a comparison in which we will not be able to field 2 large monsters while some competitors will. Also, look above the hydra was just mentioned. Seems relevant to me.

At 15% we won't even be able to field 1 unmarked monster + 1 unmarked warshrine. That's the real kicker for me.

I'm ok with not being able to run two giants anymore. But taking a warshrine now voids me from fielding even 1 unmarked giant? That just makes me sad. :(

nightsrage
25-04-2010, 00:24
I am a big Valkia fan. I converted my own model blah blah.

It seems with armor save being more resilient, Valkia will survive better. She is a 2+ armor save T6 Lord that minuses an attack of base to base profile models. Valkia will still fit in a 2k game. Not to mention she will fill as a BSB for break tests.

Armor Piercing capabilities will come from the type of weapon used, not the STR of the model(rumored). This does lower her effectiveness against heavy armored targets. However that is a two way street as she is more protected as well. I have used her to eat up 5-10 strong units of knights on the charge. She may not be able to accomplish such a task if they are able to retain the majority of their armor save. I doubt she would retain benefits of a mundane spear due to not being mounted.

Another rumor is fear/terror now adds to static combat res. She would have a +1 to CR for her fear.

Valkia gets stronger not weaker based on rumors.

Urdokadin
25-04-2010, 05:02
If the fear/terror SCR thing turns out to be true, disk riders get a fairly large boost in their roles of chasing war machines and support units, a BSB disk rider would generate 2 SCR before combat.....that's quite mean for what you're paying.

Kholek would get even more dangerous, just having 2/3 scr by himself means he might become viable in smashing even infantry blocks.

Havock
25-04-2010, 06:15
Hey, play 2250 points and you can get an unmarked shrine and a hellcannon :p

Havock
25-04-2010, 06:17
Note that the story is different for DE, as they can put a relatively cheap master on the manticore and the manticore gets hatred.

-IF- psychology still gets transferred to mounts.
And I hope they get rid of that.

Just because the rider is a perma-angry angsty elf doesn't mean the manticore is perma-arngry and pissed off all the time, it has a rule for that!

LordoftheBrassThrone
25-04-2010, 09:13
I see one major problem with this, you forgot to take into account the unit the exalted is, lets say i dont know, a unit of khorne marauders with great weapons, so lets say thats 8+ a champion, so 17 attacks ( so lets say 11 hits) killing on a 2+ (s0 8/9 kills). also you hit on a 5+ because a exalted is ws7 and you are ws3, mind you comparison isnt really valid because it would be my unit + hero vs your unit and your champion vs my champion or my hero vs your champion and my unit vs your unit, and yes attacks would be directed at the champion. But another thing is we dont really know how the weapons are actually changing, maybe halberds will be +1 strength, maybe they will just have a save mod, same thing with great weapons.


Yes because we want daemons to become the new gold standard dont we :rolleyes: I think most characters you compare to a herald of khorne are going to be considered underpowered, i wonder why that is....

Oh.... yes that makes a lot more sense, I used to just steed of shadows my heroes round everywhere into smaller units (without too many ranks, no scary magic itemed hero's such as rod of command etc). But with only a 4+ armour save and the potential of being hit back, I still don't like it (I don't like anything less than a 3+... probably why I dropped my daemons). And with the HoK, I was actually trying to quote Scallat and failed :P . I was pointing out the major flaw with them (to me anyway). HoK absolutely suck against hordey armies. :D.... damn this doesnt help us ...hmmmmmmm

LordoftheBrassThrone
25-04-2010, 09:39
I would not expect fighting in 2 ranks to be true at all. Warriors can still chop up most units in combat, this was never a problem for them. The part that makes warriors so weak will remain. They will be marchblocked and shot to death or to the point where they wont have a big enough impact.

I would actually make the argument that these changes will make it even harder for warriors. Why? We lose out on the ability to go strong magic+elite units. Since we have no shooting; our army is reliant on magic to take out support units/shooting units.

You don't expect it to be true? There's enough support for me, but if I turn out to be wrong, I apologize. If you're struggling with marchblockers, field marauder horsemen staggered behind your main battleline, only pegasus heroes, maybe shadow warriors etc will be able to fight them off. Or a spawn. For 70 points with hand weapons and shields, 88 if you give them chieftain and musician like me, or 55 pts for a spawn, you cant really lose. I play one on each flank. And most of my opponents that march block use empire huntsmen, so it works OK for me. Against more elite armies, it might be a little more difficult. Steed of Shadows an exalted champion from the other side of the board? Not too sure tbh.

logan054
25-04-2010, 09:43
I think how useful a 4+ save is going to be will really depend on how changes save mods are, if it is purely down to the weapon you may well see a dramatic improved in that alone. Helm is sadly however going to be pointless in the new edition for anything other than hero killing :(

I personally think something like sword of might and enchanted shield is going to become very popular with chaos heroes (that or bitting blade) along with Aethersword. Really i think we need more on how the challenge rules are going to be changed to see how effective Chaos heroes will be with 8th, i certainly think you underestimate them :p

inq.serge
28-04-2010, 06:39
If the chaos knights can't march, do you think the dragon ogres will still be able to? They're neither 2+ save nor cavalry.

Also, If the two rank rumour is true:

12 chosen + Extra hand weapon + Full com + Banner of rage + Mark of Slaanesh + Lucky roll on the EotG (+1 attack, either through base blessing, or through warshrine) (total 333 pts) =

61 attacks with st 4 (5 if lucky with EotG).

Awesome.

Now we just need to understand the new armour save rules.

nobsb
28-04-2010, 07:13
I would love to take chaos warriors in my army. The problem is the shooting in this game has gotten ridiculous. I haven't seen anything new on fixing the shooting in 8th. I have seen the opposite, they are going to make it deadlier, by always shooting in 2 ranks.

We already have DE lists at 2250 that can churn out over 100 shots at -1 armor piercing a turn. Skinks with blowpipes make dragons cringe. Burning alignment... that's fun for infantry. Empire handgunner detachments just got meaner with the two rank improvement. I guess I struck a nerve with someone, but I was just trying to point out that 8th Ed. doesn't seem to me that it is the new birth for infantry. So what if you get to step up in combat. That only works if you can get your infantry across the board.

Currently in 7th Ed. if I see a gunline line I'm not to worried. That's because I take M. Horsemen, dogs, and Knights. Heck I used to take a hellcannon until it got killed by a DE assasin with throwing stars!!! Talk about nuts. Didn't mean to strike a nerve with whoever it was that got all defensive about infantry units, but I do play the game and I do know what is out there. I truely hope that WoC in 8th Ed. can take block infantry again, but to do it they would have to lower the points of the warriors so you could take more.

leeoaks
28-04-2010, 07:26
i can't see them getting this right.....there are just to many books out there with individual rules...they struggle with a single army book.

They might as well have created a new game. GW could at least build something that balances and doesn't just create a new type of power game. But hey they will sure make some money from it!

snottlebocket
28-04-2010, 07:29
If the chaos knights can't march, do you think the dragon ogres will still be able to? They're neither 2+ save nor cavalry.


Dragon ogres are monstrous infantry just like trolls, ogres and kroxigor. For all intends and purposes they count as infantry.

danny-d-b
28-04-2010, 08:06
Dragon ogres are monstrous infantry just like trolls, ogres and kroxigor. For all intends and purposes they count as infantry.

though by the sounds of thing monsterus infantry will be getting its own carotogry

CaliforniaGamer
28-04-2010, 15:28
The massive block infantry buff (fighting in 2 ranks, stepping up in combat etc) added to the increased Str needed to reduce armor saves (Str5: -1 to Armor Save, Str6: -2 etc), means the purest WIN for Warriors of Chaos.

I can see WoC being very tough to deal with (Chaos Warriors for core+ mega block of Chosen with Champion w/ FotGods+Warshrines), perhaps the toughest initially, in early 8th edition as people are trying to figure out the new rules set.

Prediction:
I would expect to the ever popular all-cavalry builds to go extinct almost overnight on the tournament scene. Box sales of Chaos Warriors go through the roof in late Summer.

snottlebocket
28-04-2010, 16:16
though by the sounds of thing monsterus infantry will be getting its own carotogry

That still puts them outside the 'heavy cav cant march' category. So far the only things that have been said about monstrous infantry collectively has been positive. Ie. crush attacks on smaller targets.

inq.serge
02-05-2010, 16:14
There seem to be a rumour abot allies in 8 ed.

If I can have allies, I'll replace 1 hellcannon and my 12 forsaken for Chaos dwarfs; 2 deathrockets and 2 earthshakers. (What's better, 2 earthshakers or 1 hellcannon?)

logan054
02-05-2010, 17:10
Its not just heavy cavalry, i believe the new rumour is anything with a save of 3+ cant march move :( my poor chaos warriors with HW+SH :(

inq.serge
02-05-2010, 17:16
I hope It's 2+ and not 3+, I realy do, otherwise my steed of slaaneshi mounted chaos lady is more ********* then Sigvald on Slaanesh birthday.

I do however realy hope for allies. Chaos Dwarfs, skaven, cult of slaanesh-styled Dark elves, beasts or daemons, which will I chose? I think C-Dwarves. Hob-hero, shield, wolf, armour of furnace. Good to annoy a bloodthirster, right?

logan054
02-05-2010, 18:55
Yeah allies will be great, i can start taking my chaos furies again!! they add so much more to the WoC list (but really they shouldnt need to be taken as allies).

inq.serge
02-05-2010, 19:15
By taking chaos dwarfs, I can technically take black orcs and hobgoblins in my list.
Hobgoblins are 2 a piece, 10+ per unit. Very good meatshields.

Havock
02-05-2010, 20:32
I hope It's 2+ and not 3+, I realy do, otherwise my steed of slaaneshi mounted chaos lady is more ********* then Sigvald on Slaanesh birthday.

I do however realy hope for allies. Chaos Dwarfs, skaven, cult of slaanesh-styled Dark elves, beasts or daemons, which will I chose? I think C-Dwarves. Hob-hero, shield, wolf, armour of furnace. Good to annoy a bloodthirster, right?

Certainly hope not, that would make the army nigh-unplayable.

VonUber
03-05-2010, 02:08
My 2k Chaos army list will still be legal in 8th ed with them restrictions.
I take a chaos lord of khorne (yes i know frenzy boo hiss, but you can stop being baited by using marauder horsemen if you know what your doing). On a jugger naught with the chaos daemon sword and an enchanted shield. And a level 1 (for dispel dice, and to throw 2 dice at fire ball so i have somthing to do in the magic faze). And 1 unit of warriors, 2 units of knights, a warshrine, and lots of horsemen and 2 charriots. Works well :)

Arkfatalis
03-05-2010, 12:54
If I could talk allies I'd be taking handgunners with the hochland long rifle . Currently I think it would only be 10% allies but that would still give be two units that would make my life much easier.

logan054
03-05-2010, 13:03
some how i dont think you will be able to take empire allies for Chaos, its more likely to be, VC, DE, BoC, DoC, stuff like that.

Witchblade
03-05-2010, 14:32
WoC with shades or flamers... I hope this will not be possible.

danny-d-b
03-05-2010, 15:03
well if thats the case I might see if I can get some plauge units for my nurgle army- having plauge monks, plauge preasts, a furance (in bigger games) and cencer bearers might be usefull!

inq.serge
03-05-2010, 15:17
Seekers of Slaanesh, slaaneshi herald on chariot, and slaaneshi herald on steed if DoC

Raiders and bray shamans and pumbagors and maybe a big monster if BoC

Earthshakers and ballistas if CD

Clan Pestilence, or skyre, or eshin if skaven

Sorceresses and harpies and a hydra if DE. (4 pts a marauder isn't bad for the sacrificial dagger).

That's what I'll take!

Agnar the Howler
03-05-2010, 15:25
I really hope allies aren't in. It's bad enough that one army can take wizards as core, allowing more to do so and freeing up their hero/lord space for fighty characters would make the game far more unbalanced.

inq.serge
03-05-2010, 15:34
The rumors say that any infantry/cavalry with 3+ save or better can't march. We're screwed.

Maybe people WILL stick to knights instead of warriors?

This makes the steed of slaanesh seem quite pointless, since even without a shield, a character on one will have at least 3+ save.

This might however cause an increase in 2-hw warriors, even halberd but no shield will become more common.

Zaustus
03-05-2010, 15:43
I think it's very premature to start worrying that our warriors won't be able to march. Even if the rumor is true in general, I have every confidence that one of the FAQ changes (included in the rulebook) would be that Chaos Warriors don't suffer the penalty. Otherwise they'd be even slower than Dwarves, which is completely counterintuitive.

Also, what about Dwarf Ironbreakers? They also have a 3+. Though maybe their "Dwarfs can always march" rule would override the rumored change.

But either way, it's far too early to be freaking out.

logan054
03-05-2010, 15:45
Hmm i have 3 units of chaos warriors with HW+SH which are never going to get used, i only hope that GW decides that some sort of magical banner that ignores this rule is a good thing (infantry only). Its not that major a issue for me however, i have a unit if chaos warriors with additional hand weapons, one with halberds and my chosen so i can still use chaos warriors that march.

Still nothing has been said about frenzy, i wonder if it will still be +1 attack, hopefully baiting will be gone. i really look forward to using my chaos warriors with additional hand weapons, being able to strike most units first really makes up for the 4+ save.

I think Zaustus, chaos armour used to be the way around the movement problem of chaos warriors/knights in 5th ed, considering the lack of shooting it only makes sense that they should be able to have good armour and move across the board at a reasonable rate.

Urdokadin
03-05-2010, 16:53
the rumor round-up says absolutely nothing about infantry being penalized like that, only heavy cavalry. If this is a new rumor do please mention it in that thread to hopefully get avian or the pie king to comment on it.

Havock
03-05-2010, 21:53
It is somewhat amusing that someone calls a rumour and it is immediately acted upon as if it is a very real possibility.

I don't expect them to screw infantry -even heavy infantry- like that.

Agnar the Howler
03-05-2010, 23:41
the rumor round-up says absolutely nothing about infantry being penalized like that, only heavy cavalry. If this is a new rumor do please mention it in that thread to hopefully get avian or the pie king to comment on it.

Use the Rumor sticky (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845), not the round-up thread.


Heavy cavalry - Avian says this is possibly speculation
- Rumoured to be something like this:
All infantry and cavalry models (i.e. smaller than ogre sized) with a passive non-magical save of 3+ or better cannot march move. I.e. heavy armour and shield would allow you to march, as the +1 HW & shield is only in combat.

Brettonians and Dwarfs will be exempt

Maelstorm
04-05-2010, 07:10
Hmm, if they make the "one-save" rule come true, i think that would be a good thing, paired with less armour reducing effects. We have among the hardest armour on most things, so WoC will be happy, and espacially knights^^
(gotta say, always thought it was silly that half of the spells/effects/weapons in the game had the "no armour save rule")

...and it means the unkillable DE Dreadlord (2+ armour, reg, pedant wardsave) is pretty useless and will just be a t3 wuss with 2+ armoursave...and will be going DOWN :D

Havock
04-05-2010, 14:40
...and it means the unkillable DE Dreadlord (2+ armour, reg, pedant wardsave) is pretty useless and will just be a t3 wuss with 2+ armoursave...and will be going DOWN :D

Not really, it just means they will go for armor of darkness + pendant: one way or another, it will have a 2+ save :)

Stele
04-05-2010, 17:42
Forgive me if these have been mentioned -

Needing (core?) infantry + banner to take objectives theoretically makes WoC one of the stronger armies in 8th because of their rather nice infantry. How this plays out in practice though remains to be seen. Infantry are rumoured to be able to move like fast cav do now which will make them a lot more viable.

The other strong thing about WoC infantry is their high I and flexibility with which weapons they can take. Other comparable heavy infantry with great weapons will always strike last (even HE it is rumoured), whereas WoC are one of the few races in the game that can go for halberds/GWs/extra hand weapons, etc, whichever works out the strongest in the new metagame. Striking first (even when charged) is still going to matter, especially against smaller elite units.

As for the % effect on characters - WoC are still going to need wizards to handle the units that they have the toughest time getting to grips with - flyers, skirmishers, war machines etc (although large flyers may be/will be rarer except in bigger games). Luckily dropping a lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2's down to 2 or 3 lvl 1/2's saves on a lot of points but still allows cheap Flickering Fire spam on your flanks.

Havock
04-05-2010, 23:58
The problem is that our warriors are really expensive, though with the new rules I can see units of 18 with halberds & shields (I call BS on the 3+ save = no march for infantry, it would make our army bloody unplayable*) become interesting. 6 wide, with some casualty-allowance. Marauder blocks to fill up the need for static CR. 2x20 with HW/shield and full command and Mark of Slaanesh costs you 300 pts.

Probably a single unit of knights with banner of rage for threat range & killing power.
Hellcannon might just become really, really good, it is very good vs horde-y armies.


*unless they intend it to be marauders of chaos.

Zinch
05-05-2010, 01:38
20x20 with HW/shield and full command and Mark of Slaanesh.

Wow, THAT is a horde... ;)

I'm waiting for the rulebook tomake a decision. The rumours change every week and noone knows how they will affect WoC at the end.

Having said that, I realy, realy hope the "3+=no march movement" rumour is false (as I believe). I realy hate marauders, I LOVE warriors! (not for the rules, I'd prefer cheaper warriors... but I LOVE the miniatures)

Havock
05-05-2010, 01:49
That was not the typo you saw.

Seville
05-05-2010, 07:29
Hellcannon might just become really, really good, it is very good vs horde-y armies.

I think the Hellcannon is going to dominate. With the rumors of no partial hits and every army moving over to more infantry blocks, I expect most WoC generals will take two.

Interestingly enough, I just started painting mine shortly before the 8th ed rumors started coming in. Yay!

Odin
05-05-2010, 10:41
I call BS on the 3+ save = no march for infantry, it would make our army bloody unplayable.

Agree completely. It says the rule doesn't apply to Bretonnians or Dwarfs, but I would assume that Chaos Warriors are exempted somehow, or the earlier rumour of 2+ or better is true (would help make Boar Boyz comparatively better). In all the older rules versions, Chaos Armour didn't slow you down, even though heavy armour did, because it's part of the warrior's body. That rule would need to return. Obviously the same wouldn't apply to Chaos Knights, because it's the steeds that need to carry the weight. Makes it a bit complicated to errata though. I like the general principle of the no marching rule for heavy cavalry, but the details are very important.

Havock
05-05-2010, 11:46
I think the Hellcannon is going to dominate. With the rumors of no partial hits and every army moving over to more infantry blocks, I expect most WoC generals will take two.


Sorry, won't fit in the 15% rare allowance most of the time

Besides, most tournaments here have cmp restriction (no double rares, no triple specials) so its a no-go for me anyway :p

duffybear1988
05-05-2010, 11:50
hmmmm well if the rumours for allies are true it means we can take shooty units at long last... I know for a fact that I will have a couple of units of ungor skirmishers in my WoC list, and if I can squeeze in some daemons then I will take some daemonettes as well for speedy killing.

Right now I have to say that everything looks great for WoC except for the 'may not march if 3+ armour save' rumour which I think is false.

With heavy cavalry being slowed down it may mean we see the appearance of medium cavalry like armoured maruader horsemen take to the field which will be interesting, as well as look cool.

All this couldn't have come at a better time as im so disillusioned by 40k at the moment and want something different to play.

Based on rumours so far I think my 2000 points list will look something like this -

1 Exalted hero, 1 Sorcerer, 2x20 Marauders, 1x18 Warriors, 2x8 Ungor skirmishers, 1x6 Furies, 1x10 Marauder horse, 1x5 Marauder horse, 3x6 Chaos hounds, 1x5 Chaos knights, 1x4 Ogres, 1 Spawn.

logan054
05-05-2010, 12:02
Sorry, won't fit in the 15% rare allowance most of the time

That really depends on if it actually is 15%, i have seen rare rumoured at 25% as well in the rumour round up, that will also depend if 2k is going to remain the standard game size, dosnt really bother me as i dont even own one and i will be happy enough with my shaggoth.


Agree completely. It says the rule doesn't apply to Bretonnians or Dwarfs, but I would assume that Chaos Warriors are exempted somehow, or the earlier rumour of 2+ or better is true (would help make Boar Boyz comparatively better). In all the older rules versions, Chaos Armour didn't slow you down, even though heavy armour did, because it's part of the warrior's body. That rule would need to return. Obviously the same wouldn't apply to Chaos Knights, because it's the steeds that need to carry the weight. Makes it a bit complicated to errata though. I like the general principle of the no marching rule for heavy cavalry, but the details are very important.

Well that was my first thought i have a feeling it may be designed so ifantry with a 2+ save are not going to be used all that often, perhaps so all those people with chaos warriors with HW+SH either go out and buy new chaos warriors or buy the weapon kits GW made, im hoping this is all bogus but you can tell.


Needing (core?) infantry + banner to take objectives theoretically makes WoC one of the stronger armies in 8th because of their rather nice infantry. How this plays out in practice though remains to be seen. Infantry are rumoured to be able to move like fast cav do now which will make them a lot more viable.

I believe the rumour has been changed from core infantry to just infantry, thankfully as you point we do have some of the strongest infantry in he core section so while most armies are limited to 25/35% special choices (assuming they max out on everything else) we have our special slots free for things such as dragon ogres, dragon ogres and more dragon ogres (but maybe some knights if we dont see some new plastic dragon ogre kits soon). I think my chaos warriors with additional weapons are going to see alot more action however i dont think i will rule out my great weapon warriors now, i have a feeling that will be one of the few weapons that infantry can have that has a save mod (if the reduced rumours on save mods is true).

inq.serge
05-05-2010, 15:32
Do you think forsaken will be worth taking now, they'll remain quite fast with 5+as, M6?

Witchblade
05-05-2010, 16:42
I don't see what would make them suck less. In fact, the opposite may be true. With charging becoming less important, command groups becoming more important, durability becoming more important due to stepping up and initiative becoming more important, I see Forsaken suffering as always. They're also not controllable enough for flank charges, so they won't take over the role of cavalry either.

Odin
06-05-2010, 12:25
I don't see what would make them suck less. In fact, the opposite may be true. With charging becoming less important, command groups becoming more important, durability becoming more important due to stepping up and initiative becoming more important, I see Forsaken suffering as always. They're also not controllable enough for flank charges, so they won't take over the role of cavalry either.

Yeah, I haven't seen anything yet that would make them better, and I've seen a lot which will make them worse. Still, nothing is certain yet.

geldedgoat
07-05-2010, 05:06
I sincerely hope that's not how the 1 save rule ends up working. Mark of Tzeentch on units was already underpowered in comparison to the other marks... this change would make it completely worthless. Thankfully, though, I've only managed to assemble and paint one unit of warriors in a god-neutral color scheme, so I'm still able to completely alter the composition of my list. :shifty:

cold0
09-05-2010, 11:03
If it's confirmed, the "3+ armour save no march" rule just hurt me because I have 40+ chaos warriors, starting from "Realms of Chaos" era, and the majority is armed with hand weapon & shield 8a few with 2-handed weapons and even less with hte halberd9. While they are perfect for the present rules set (I always deploy them with the shield and halberd), the GW is out of mind if they think that I will buy other 40+ warriors just to have them armed with halberd and conform to the "they are what they look" rule.

Form the rules point of view, 4+ armour save could be "ok", but the WoC don't have a shooting phase, skirmish and flying units, and the warriors even lost the 6+ save of the MoT, so if my expensive 17+ warriors have a 3+ armour save and march, well, its' balance the complete lack of everything else: an "uber" close combat army of (few) grim metal men as the Warriors should be.

And yes, in the older edition (at least in the 3rd) and from the background point of view the chaos armour had never ampered the movement.

Odin
09-05-2010, 14:51
If it's confirmed, the "3+ armour save no march" rule just hurt me because I have 40+ chaos warriors, starting from "Realms of Chaos" era, and the majority is armed with hand weapon & shield 8a few with 2-handed weapons and even less with hte halberd9. While they are perfect for the present rules set (I always deploy them with the shield and halberd), the GW is out of mind if they think that I will buy other 40+ warriors just to have them armed with halberd and conform to the "they are what they look" rule.

Form the rules point of view, 4+ armour save could be "ok", but the WoC don't have a shooting phase, skirmish and flying units, and the warriors even lost the 6+ save of the MoT, so if my expensive 17+ warriors have a 3+ armour save and march, well, its' balance the complete lack of everything else: an "uber" close combat army of (few) grim metal men as the Warriors should be.

And yes, in the older edition (at least in the 3rd) and from the background point of view the chaos armour had never ampered the movement.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there is 0% chance that GW will introduce a rule which means that chaos warriors cant march if they have shields. They make mistakes from time to time but that would be ridiculous.

GodlessM
09-05-2010, 14:56
There will be no new limitations to marching from 7th ed. guys. No need to worry about it.

On a whole reflecting on the thread topic, I feel WoC armies won't change too much. Mostly, a Lvl4 Sorcerer and a Horsemen unit will go in favour of two small Warrior units.

cold0
11-05-2010, 08:18
Probably, but I have to see how the magic phase changes in the new edition to determinete the number/level of the Chaos Sorcerers in the WoC armies.

Frankly I'm quite happy to change the heavy cavalry/heavy magic list for something else ;).

Rochr
13-05-2010, 22:01
25%+ points for Core is freaking terrible... no way to make an effective cavalry list now...

inq.serge
13-05-2010, 22:07
Wonder if hounds count toward min Core%?

You can still gave tones of marauder horsemen, especially cruiser missiles.

logan054
13-05-2010, 22:15
Wonder if hounds count toward min Core%?

You can still gave tones of marauder horsemen, especially cruiser missiles.

I dont think hounds will but you could certainly get plenty of chaos marauders

Rochr
13-05-2010, 23:02
Wonder if hounds count toward min Core%?

You can still gave tones of marauder horsemen, especially cruiser missiles.

You gonna need like 25 marauder horsemen and even then deck them for 20 pts a piece in a 2000 pts game.

Yea maybe Warhounds will count towards core... would help :)

Havock
14-05-2010, 00:09
25%+ points for Core is freaking terrible... no way to make an effective cavalry list now...

That is if Cavalry is good enough to warrant an entire list really.
25% is easy, actually. 12-13 warriors of slaanesh with the rapturous standard and shields is a fairly solid 'magebunker' ;)

ChaosVC
14-05-2010, 01:31
I find it easy and fun to play with 20 marauders with great weapon and mark of khorn at 130pts. Wonder why nobody take them to begin with, good folder and if they can pull off a charge, they still can dish out a lot of hurt.

Witchblade
14-05-2010, 03:09
If it's true mages can select their spells and use 6 dice per spell, a single L2 of tzeentch with gateway and pandaemonium equipped with a scroll and the book of secrets is going to be sick.

Peregijn
14-05-2010, 08:15
rumors say: we need 500 points of core in a 2000p game...
rumors say: infantry gets to fight in 2 ranks
I say: Go chaos warriors 2 units of 12/18 gets you around 400 points 2 units of marauder horseman and you have your minimum core.

fore me there is no change at all, except that i can take less characters

Cartoon
14-05-2010, 08:18
Sorry if I missed it earlier, but how does everyone feel about chariots based on the rumors? I usually like to run one or two as is now, but with the Str 7 auto kill apparently going away and knights possibly loosing the ability to march I think chariots will make an excellent support choice for infantry blocks, or even knights themselves. While I may not mount my characters in them anymore I think they may see the table more often.

snottlebocket
14-05-2010, 08:28
25%+ points for Core is freaking terrible... no way to make an effective cavalry list now...

You know, a lot of the complaints and whining going around is because people are taking next edition rules rumors and applying them to current edition armylists. If you want all cavalry 500 points worth of marauders sounds a lot. It is if you're thinking about marauders as 5 man lightly equiped fast cavalry units.

But take into account another rumor, for instance all heavy cavalry (2+ save or better) lose the ability to march and you suddenly (hopefully) realize you're going to need a lot more marauder horsemen. Let's look at another rumor, it's going to take more strength before armour saves are reduced. Right now medium cavalry is worthless, next edition, they're the cavalry that can actually march. When fast cavalry is too weak and heavy cavalry is too slow, medium cavalry is what fills the gap.

There will be a learning curve but I imagine units of medium cav will find their uses. When you start thinking about things like 10 marauder horsemen with spears, shields, light armour, full command and maybe even a mark. You're looking at a medium unit costing about 200-220 points.

With a unit like that, filling up your core with entirely mounted forces is not hard at all. When heavy cav can't march, medium cav will becoming a serious flanking threat to them. You can support them with disc heroes, maybe even try something wacky like a fully ranked unit.

Anyway things aren't nearly as bad as they seem.

logan054
14-05-2010, 08:43
I think im still going to be using knights, no they cant march but yes they still get 3D6 picking the highest + command bonus + M7, thats still a 2nd turn charge in many cases. I was tempted to say dragon ogres however with great weapons being strike last even on the charge i dont know, i can see them taking some real damage before they even get to attack. They will still be good against cavalry.

I think some of major concerns are going to be how to cancel ranks, regardless of how good chaos warriors are going to be if everyone is using massive units they are pretty much always going to be going up against stubborn units. I really dont see people using units of 20 chaos warriors unless the average points per game are going up. You looking at getting a unit of 10 horsemen or 10 hounds into the flank of a unit without taking loses, I can possibly see ogres being useful for this due to armour, wounds and speed.


I find it easy and fun to play with 20 marauders with great weapon and mark of khorn at 130pts. Wonder why nobody take them to begin with, good folder and if they can pull off a charge, they still can dish out a lot of hurt.

Been doing that since HoC book mate :p i tend to use mine in units of 18, 24 or 25, it really is a good unit, if great weapons can only strike in one rank this will nerf this unit and i think flails will be the far better choice (going to have to see how many flail heads i have laying about lol).

snottlebocket
14-05-2010, 08:48
I think im still going to be using knights, no they cant march but yes they still get 3D6 picking the highest + command bonus + M7, thats still a 2nd turn charge in many cases. I was tempted to say dragon ogres however with great weapons being strike last even on the charge i dont know, i can see them taking some real damage before they even get to attack. They will still be good against cavalry.

I think some of major concerns are going to be how to cancel ranks, regardless of how good chaos warriors are going to be if everyone is using massive units they are pretty much always going to be going up against stubborn units. I really dont see people using units of 20 chaos warriors unless the average points per game are going up. You looking at getting a unit of 10 horsemen or 10 hounds into the flank of a unit without taking loses, I can possibly see ogres being useful for this due to armour, wounds and speed.



Been doing that since HoC book mate :p i tend to use mine in units of 18, 24 or 25, it really is a good unit, if great weapons can only strike in one rank this will nerf this unit and i think flails will be the far better choice (going to have to see how many flail heads i have laying about lol).

Honestly I absolutely love most of the rumors. But the game needs less random factors, not more. If it turns out that charge distances become dependant on dice rolls I'm just going to quit entirely, no matter how much I like the rest.

ChaosVC
14-05-2010, 09:19
Been doing that since HoC book mate :p i tend to use mine in units of 18, 24 or 25, it really is a good unit, if great weapons can only strike in one rank this will nerf this unit and i think flails will be the far better choice (going to have to see how many flail heads i have laying about lol).

erm...don't think you can give marauders marks in the good ole HOC.

logan054
14-05-2010, 10:00
Well no, but they had great weapons with a massive khorne symbol since the HoC book :P


Honestly I absolutely love most of the rumors. But the game needs less random factors, not more. If it turns out that charge distances become dependant on dice rolls I'm just going to quit entirely, no matter how much I like the rest.

I dont mind the random charge distances so much, i think its more the changes regarding unit strength and flanking im not keen on, I think my current list is legal with the new rules however i dont think it will be all that great with the new rules so i would certainly need to play bigger games in order to field everything i need to make a decent balance (well as balanced as mono khorne can be) list.

Psybilliah
25-06-2010, 01:32
I was looking at the 8th rule book yesterday and it seems sheilds have changed. One handed weapon and shield grants 6+ ward save in CC only. Also, seems to specify that you cannot use a Halberds and Shields at the same time.

If this is true it really changes how many of us run our warriors. Any clarifications or thoughts on this?

jamano
25-06-2010, 01:38
You already couldn't use halberds and sheilds at the same time, and I think warriors benefit the most from the change to hw sheild because it stacks with tzeench mark

HeroFox
25-06-2010, 01:59
Does it stack?

I thought you choose the greater of the two. Not sure what happens if you match 6+ wards..

lelandchaska
25-06-2010, 02:53
Does it stack?

I thought you choose the greater of the two. Not sure what happens if you match 6+ wards..

Normally you do pick the better of two possible ward saves, but MoT specifically says that it augments any other ward save, and you get the default 6+ if it has nothing else to tag onto.

The real downside is that frenzy and parry do not stack. It's pretty close to a complete waste to give Khorne warriors shield and hand weapon.

Aluinn
25-06-2010, 03:22
That is if Cavalry is good enough to warrant an entire list really.
25% is easy, actually. 12-13 warriors of slaanesh with the rapturous standard and shields is a fairly solid 'magebunker' ;)

I really don't know why anyone would want to put a wizard in a unit in 8th, much less so WoC sorcerors; they can get a 3+ Ward with MoT, ride a disc (or heck, a carpet if you're not Tzeentchian, for all it would look kinda funny), and wear armor, making the need for extra protection a lot less. More to the point, S10 hits on all the Warriors will be the end of that expensive unit.

Having said that I think Warriors are doing pretty well. 6x3 is probably a very strong formation, with any weapon combo, though halberds benefit most from 8th of all their options. Even 6x2 pumps out a lot of attacks and Warriors are tough enough (and have high enough I) that it shouldn't be reduced by much for the first couple rounds of combat. The impact of Steadfast is big but shouldn't be overestimated; Warriors will win almost any combat if you're careful with them and won't need the rule themselves. Of course it means they take a few turns to kill enemy units, but that is an issue any elite unit will have to deal with. At least they aren't expensive and fragile.

Marauder Horsemen, on the other hand, took a fair hit and I think any army based on them will be fighting an uphill battle. It's even worse if Chaos Knights are your main backup, because, though they are still indeed scary and might not lose combats even in spite of ranks, they're very vulnerable to being dragged down one-by-one in protracted combats with an enemy that won't flee.

So I think the foundation of a WoC army in 8th should probably be either large units of Marauders on foot, or units of Warriors on foot that are optimized for damage output. They might not be quite as good as other core units point-for-point, but they have excellent support in the form of Sorcs and the Hellcannon, amongst all the other choices. Knights are going to be great when charging in on a flank to support an infantry unit because of the amount of hurt they lay down and the fact that, on a flank, return attacks are pretty limited. Anyone who turns to face them will pretty much forfeit the combat against your infantry.

Anyway, those are the opinions of a non-WoC player (but I do face them pretty often).

inq.serge
25-06-2010, 09:18
What's the opinion on Bloodskull pendant?

Any good builds in 8ed (with new magic items and all) for a khornate BSB on foot (or jugger, but preferably on foot)?

danny-d-b
25-06-2010, 09:41
I ran it once or twise on my sorcers- but found it left them open to counter attack and there was other things I wanted. However it is very nice 3-4 S8 hits can do the dammage, just make sure you give him some deffence, and I wouldn't bother giving it to an exalted or chaos lord, 45 points for +3 Streanth and possibly less attacks isn't worth it in my view

shortlegs
25-06-2010, 10:03
I had some fun in 7th with the pendant.

sorc lord of tzeentch
enchanted shield
spell familiar
bloodskull pendant
collar of khorne

People thinking he is an easy target for assassination often is surprised at his 1+ AS/5+WS, and auto-eating str8 KB attacks. Good for a few laughs.

mrtn
25-06-2010, 10:24
Normally you do pick the better of two possible ward saves, but MoT specifically says that it augments any other ward save, and you get the default 6+ if it has nothing else to tag onto.

The real downside is that frenzy and parry do not stack. It's pretty close to a complete waste to give Khorne warriors shield and hand weapon.The newest White Dwarf supports this reasoning on MoT if anyone's in doubt.

Khorne warriors should still get a 3+ AS with shields, even if they can't parry. Right?

GodlessM
25-06-2010, 11:11
That's right mrtn. And even if they are carrying Halberds, giving them Shields still helps them trek across the battlefield by having a better save against shooting.

Psybilliah
25-06-2010, 12:05
It looked like the rules said the sheilds only grant a ward save in CC? I believe it was saying that with a shield anyone has a chance (6+) to deflect even themost massive attack... or something like that. I did not see where it allows the save to be taken for shooting/magic attacks

Can someone confirm or discount?

Oberon
25-06-2010, 12:07
+1 armour save as before, but instead of that another +1 to save in CC, we now get 6+ ward with the same conditions (against frontal assault only etc).

Odin
25-06-2010, 12:13
I think it makes sense that you don't get to use parry with frenzy... I just wish it didn't come just as I am finishing a unit of 18 warriors of khorne with shields!

Oberon
25-06-2010, 12:42
At least they are a bit better protected against shooting. You must have some equipment for them anyway, shield is still ok.

logan054
25-06-2010, 13:08
I think it makes sense that you don't get to use parry with frenzy... I just wish it didn't come just as I am finishing a unit of 18 warriors of khorne with shields!

On the bright side you still have 3WS5 S4 I5 attacks with a 3+ save, give them the AP banner or even the flamming attacks banner and your laughing, hello ogres, reroll wound dice, yes please :D

lelandchaska
25-06-2010, 13:31
Having said that I think Warriors are doing pretty well. 6x3 is probably a very strong formation, with any weapon combo, though halberds benefit most from 8th of all their options. Even 6x2 pumps out a lot of attacks and Warriors are tough enough (and have high enough I) that it shouldn't be reduced by much for the first couple rounds of combat. The impact of Steadfast is big but shouldn't be overestimated; Warriors will win almost any combat if you're careful with them and won't need the rule themselves. Of course it means they take a few turns to kill enemy units, but that is an issue any elite unit will have to deal with. At least they aren't expensive and fragile.



I agree that Steadfast is being overestimated. If you take a 20 block of chaos warriors (5x4) against a 40 block of core troupes (10x4), there is a good chance that steadfast won't matter. If you do 6 or more wounds and take 5 or less, the horde will not have more ranks.

Col_Festus
25-06-2010, 14:48
With the new combat rules, do you think its worth giving Khorne Warriors halbs and shields, or 2X HWs?

lelandchaska
25-06-2010, 14:56
That's right mrtn. And even if they are carrying Halberds, giving them Shields still helps them trek across the battlefield by having a better save against shooting.

That's why I said it was pretty close to a complete waste, rather than a complete waste. :)

I assembled all my 7th ed Khorne warriors with two hand weapons for fluff reasons, but it looks like they will do well in 8th (assuming the issue concerning stacking extra attacks gets settled properly).

I think some mathhammer guys suggested that halberds would be the best way to go with Khorne warriors. I just think the two hand weapons looks cool.

mrtn
25-06-2010, 15:18
Assuming you go 6 wide then I think 24 attacks and a 3+ save is better than 30 attacks and a 4+ save. But maybe I'm not really cut out to be a Khorne worshipper. :skull:

Urdokadin
25-06-2010, 17:01
All this despair over shields pleases papa nurgle.

Shields are still necessary for marching across the battlefield. Most blackpowder weapons are str 4, just being able to save on a 4+ or 5+ with shields is vastly superior vs small arms fire. granted we're still mooshy vs cannons and artillery...but every saved wound is worth it.
Heck, by the argument that it's "cheaper" your shields just need to save a single chaos warrior from dying to small arms fire to make their point cost back (okay okay, maybe a chaos warrior and a half) in a unit of twenty.

Eta
25-06-2010, 17:09
All this despair over shields pleases papa nurgle.

Shields are still necessary for marching across the battlefield. Most blackpowder weapons are str 4, just being able to save on a 4+ or 5+ with shields is vastly superior vs small arms fire. granted we're still mooshy vs cannons and artillery...but every saved wound is worth it.
Heck, by the argument that it's "cheaper" your shields just need to save a single chaos warrior from dying to small arms fire to make their point cost back (okay okay, maybe a chaos warrior and a half) in a unit of twenty.

And still, you lose protection with Khornate warriors with no gain. Makes the already too expensive unit even more too (:D) expensive.

Greetings
Eta

Urdokadin
25-06-2010, 22:24
In for a dime, in for a dollar. If you're taking warriors against an army with any amount of shooting that isn't artillery based, the cost to gain ratio is still in favour of the shields.

Kalec
26-06-2010, 01:10
Xhws are still trash, and frenzy only makes halberds even better in comparison. The front rank of warriors either gets 2 S5 attacks or 4 S4 attacks, not much difference. But, the second rank (and third if in horde formation) gets 1 attack either way, halberd of xhw.

The wonders of frenzy aside, Tzeentch is the new go-to mark with super parry. While much less necessary because chaos warriors actually get to use their lovely I5, there are going to be plenty of opponents where the defense of shields outweighs the S of halberds.

Orangecoke
26-06-2010, 01:39
I think I'm losing track of the final verdict:

If I'm running Khorne warriors - I should take Halberds and shields?

(nevermind that I have 24 painted xhw warriors, LOL).

Urdokadin
26-06-2010, 01:43
yeah, they can't use the shields in h2h, but the protection from shooting 100% worth it imo

Orangecoke
26-06-2010, 01:56
ok - basically it just means the shields "work" until they get to close combat, then they effectively just have halberds (sorry to be dense, I'm a total noobie to WFB).

SatireSphere
26-06-2010, 02:05
You have the option of using the shields, though. You're not forced to use your halberd.

I think halberds are the way to go for khorne or banner of rage warriors. Otherwise mark of tzeentch with shields is absolutely killer, especially combined with the blasted standard.

Orangecoke
26-06-2010, 02:10
I see - very cool. My army is Khornate so I'm glad to get this advice before painting many more warriors :) Time to convert halberds.

Zaustus
26-06-2010, 03:32
You have the option of using the shields, though. You're not forced to use your halberd.

I think halberds are the way to go for khorne or banner of rage warriors. Otherwise mark of tzeentch with shields is absolutely killer, especially combined with the blasted standard.

That's just the thing... in 8th edition, you can't choose any more. If you're equipped with the halberd, you have to use the halberd.

I agree that the shields are probably still worth it for the 3+ against shooting, but you can no longer choose to use hw + shield in combat unless you don't have any other weapon.

From the numbers I've run, it looks like the most effective Warrior kits will be blocks of Tzeentch with just shields, followed by Khorne Warriors with halberds (and shields to make it across the table). If you're willing to give the Banner of Rage to Warriors, then Nurgle Warriors with halberds, shields and BoR is a very strong unit.

shakedown47
26-06-2010, 03:49
You have the option of using the shields, though. You're not forced to use your halberd.

You absolutely have to use your halberd in close combat if you have one, unless you also have an additional hand weapon, great weapon, etc. If you have a special weapon, you cannot opt to use a hand weapon instead. No hand weapon, no parry bonus.

Brother J
26-06-2010, 07:35
Not sure about you all.. but I'm looking forward to that little 4+ Ward armor that's coming in with the rule book.

So far I am liking the changes for the 8th edition. I completely despised the all cavalry lists that were ever so popular, and decided to work with the less effective and less point and shoot infantry based lists.

The changes work to my benefit, so I suppose now it'll be the same concept on different sides of the spectrum, but whatever, this is my comfort zone.

I'm not sure I'm wanting to take magic.. Though I did see someone need an 18+ to cast some gnarly empowered fireball at the demo for the release at the local GW. I'm fond of 3D6 fireballs..

inq.serge
26-06-2010, 07:49
I wonder what's best for a flail waving 2k chariot/3k dragon rider lord ( I like the coincidence that a dragon costs exactly 250 pts more than a slaaneshi chariot) to carry around: roar, third eye, crimson armour, phylactery, book of secrets and spell familiar, or, roar, third eye, crimson armour, phylactery, book of secrets and that new item that lets you ignore your first miscast?

kahohess
26-06-2010, 08:11
can't wait to try Vilitch with the new rules, just for fun and maybe a hero with a slannesh steed, light cavalery having this "scout" rule now.

Weemo
26-06-2010, 09:16
I am picking up my warriors again with the new release, i have always wanted to do an army with lots of infantry but in 7th edition they got ripped to pieces, now with stepping up ect i am looking forwards to 4+ units of infantry, slowly but inevitably marching to war.