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incarna
19-04-2010, 14:18
I don’t normally start topics but I wanted some community input. It serves to reason that the preponderance of Space Marine and Space Marine variant codexes is due, at least in part, by the large quantity of lore that exists in literature. So, I got to thinking, now that the traitor legions have a growing quantity of established lore via the Horus Heresy series, might we eventually see a “vanilla” chaos space marine codex followed by some variant codexes?

If so, what traitor legions have had “dedicated” Horus Heresy novels thus far?

I know Black Legion has had a couple, Emperors Children, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Night Lords have each had one. So we’re missing World Eaters, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors right?

So which legions fall under the umbrella of a “vanilla” chaos space marine codex and which legions get their own? If that's not how it would be done, how else might it be done or do you think the forces of the chaos space marines will forever be locked within one book?

Whitehorn
19-04-2010, 14:21
Legion covered Alpha legion.

There's quite a few books including World Eaters, but not their own book in its entirety.

The HH books make each legion quite diverse. There's potential to give every legion their own book, but I would go with a basic divide of cult legions for one book and traitor marines in the other.

Thud
19-04-2010, 14:22
Alpha Legion was covered in 'Legion', a very good book IMO, and is the legion I'd be most interested in seeing special rules for.

If GW do decide to go for different Chaos codices, I'm guessing we'll see Black Legion as the vanilla option along with the four god-specific legions as either four separate codices, or some sort of Chaos version of the Eldar Craftworld codex.

Lordsaradain
19-04-2010, 14:23
Alpha Warriors have had theirs. Night Lords havent(unless you count the audiobook).
Word Bearers are coming next year(called the first heretic or sth like that).

So that leaves World Eaters and Iron Warriors (And possibly Night Lords).

Very few loyalists have been covered though; Dark Angels and Space Wolves(due this fall), the rest have all pretty much just been mentioned.

Simo429
19-04-2010, 14:32
Alpha Warriors have had theirs. Night Lords havent(unless you count the audiobook).
Word Bearers are coming next year(called the first heretic or sth like that).

So that leaves World Eaters and Iron Warriors (And possibly Night Lords).

Very few loyalists have been covered though; Dark Angels and Space Wolves(due this fall), the rest have all pretty much just been mentioned.

space wolves isnt out till next march last i heard

i do think we've seen the makings of the big I but thats just an opinion

Odin
19-04-2010, 14:52
Of course, Iron Warriors have their own series of novels set more recently.

nightgant98c
19-04-2010, 16:37
Word Bearers also have their own books.

wazatdingder
19-04-2010, 16:49
Vanilla would be the chapter that started it all, which is also the one you see in most GW battle reports, and you see mostly in the Heavy Metal section of the codex.

It's called the Horus Heresy for a reason.

Thrain
19-04-2010, 19:10
space wolves isnt out till next march last i heard

i do think we've seen the makings of the big I but thats just an opinion

I totally agree with your opinion. That's been one of my favorite moments so far. I'm on Legion now.

Revelations
19-04-2010, 19:27
It serves to reason that the preponderance of Space Marine and Space Marine variant codexes is due, at least in part, by the large quantity of lore that exists in literature. So, I got to thinking, now that the traitor legions have a growing quantity of established lore via the Horus Heresy series, might we eventually see a “vanilla” chaos space marine codex followed by some variant codexes?
I laughed so hard I almost threw up a little bit in my mouth. I'd expect Chaos SM to lose their spikes before this happened.

Lordsaradain
19-04-2010, 19:46
i do think we've seen the makings of the big I but thats just an opinion

The big I?

MrInsomniac
19-04-2010, 20:12
Vanilla would be the chapter that started it all

So the Word Bearers then? ;)

I don't think we'd see too much of an influence, the legions have changed massively since the Heresy, people from the books have died, new leaders have emerged. I think (if we were ever to see dedicated books, which I don't) we'd simply see a dex similar to Space Marines where we'd have special characters who dictate the build of an army. I don't like the idea, but I think that's the most likely outcome.

technotemplar
19-04-2010, 20:56
Hopefully in the next Chaos codex they will include special rules for the big traitor legions, doesnt have to be a WHOLE lot, just enough to give the armies some flavor

Grimtuff
19-04-2010, 22:48
The big I?

The Inquisition I would guess.

"The big I": =][= ;)

Petay1985
20-04-2010, 10:16
World eaters had a reasonable amount of coverage in the early 3 books and were certainly in later ones. The tales of heresy book also had a short story about them, so they have had some coverage.

I don't think we will see a dedicated book about them.

Lothlanathorian
20-04-2010, 10:38
A good mixing of the 3.5 and 4th Ed Chaos Codices would make for a good one. There really isn't a need for separate Chaos Marine Codices. Cult Troops shouldn't be troops, they should be Elites. Taking a Lord with a Mark should allow Cult Troops with the same Mark to be available as Troops. Other than that, most of the other Legions are pretty Vanilla except for how you build your list. So, take 3 units of Raptors and call your army Night Lords (which didn't happen until 3.5 Codex, so it's all about whatever the Codex tells you is right) or take 3 Tanks or 3 units of Oblits and call them Iron Warriors.

Adding back Veteran Abilities would go a long way to making your army Legion specific better, also. Or something like Traits from the 4th Ed. Marine Codex would help.

Finn
20-04-2010, 10:44
I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of Heresy-era special characters made it in, especially those that are still living (and aren't currently in the codex). I don't think we'll see something similar to Combat Tactics and the chapter master rules from the loyalist codex, nor do I think we'll see anything like the return of "Khorne lords take Khorne units as Troops"/etc., but a book capable of representing both Black Legion/pirate forces and more Legion/god-specific would be awesome. And without adding much more than one "rules step" to the process. A Chaos version of Combat Tactics would probably be most viable, but I'd rather not have the mechanic copied/pasted from the loyalist codex. All of that is probably just wishful thinking, and rather moot as there are no rumblings of a CSM 'dex for quite some time, nor should there be.

I'm not terribly buff on knowledge of which characters are still living, but I'd like to see Cypher for starters. I mean we've got Typhus and Bile and so on, but it'd be nice if there were one from every traitor legion, or nearly every legion.

Oh, and tell Lucius to GTFO. He was so much cooler in the books, he just wasn't done correctly in the codex :P. Underwhelming in the extreme, both in his fluff/the manner of his "death" and rules incarnation.

Lothlanathorian
20-04-2010, 10:58
Well, since Lucius the SC came before Lucius the character in the books, it stands to reason that he is much cooler with actual background lol. And a return to Lord w/mark unlocks X unit as Troops choice would make more sense and would work very well.

As for Combat Tactics or some such...no. Chaos isn't supposed to be organized. They don't get ATSKNF because they are Chaos Marines. They've left the Imperium and aren't there, bred for war, like Imperial Marines. When they run, it is because they've decided this isn't worth fighting for or dying over. If they are loons who will fight to the death for their God, then they have Fearless in their profile. Otherwise, he who runs lives to fight again.

Finn
20-04-2010, 13:28
Well, since Lucius the SC came before Lucius the character in the books, it stands to reason that he is much cooler with actual background lol. And a return to Lord w/mark unlocks X unit as Troops choice would make more sense and would work very well.

As for Combat Tactics or some such...no. Chaos isn't supposed to be organized. They don't get ATSKNF because they are Chaos Marines. They've left the Imperium and aren't there, bred for war, like Imperial Marines. When they run, it is because they've decided this isn't worth fighting for or dying over. If they are loons who will fight to the death for their God, then they have Fearless in their profile. Otherwise, he who runs lives to fight again.

I didn't really want to ramble on and on (as I was already doing) in my post about how they shouldn't get ATSKNF, actual Combat Tactics, and the like, merely that granting a unit different options/rules (twin-linking meltas and flamers, etc.) instead of some standard rule would be the way I'd prefer it. So say, instead of a rule that all standard CSMs might have (maybe they can re-roll Morale checks if the required squad Aspiring Champion is alive) in the next book, this happens:
You take an HQ choice of Khorne. Any of your squads that then take the Icon/Mark of Khorne replace that rule with WS5 and/or Furious Charge, as well as Fearless. Or some such.

I've always felt that moving things in between FoC slots is somewhat clunky and can cause confusion when your opponent doesn't know your codex. Ideally this doesn't happen, but we all play near-total strangers from time to time don't we? Plus it would mess with the internal balance of the codex. Right now I think the consensus is that the book has great internal balance, with a few exceptions (Possessed, Spawn). If all Cult Troops suddenly move to Elites - what happens to those people who play Black Legion style forces? The army suddenly doesn't represent the Chaos Poster Boys at all, at least not on the table top. I really doubt GW will go a route that would marginalize them so much.

Perhaps an in-between would be to limit Cults to 0-1 unless you take a proper HQ, but since GW's moving away from 0-1 limitations...I don't see that happening either. Realistically, I expect something of a mix between the current Black Legion/renegade book and the previous all-purpose Legion book. I think this 0-1 restriction would work well here, but see previous sentence :p.

I'm likely just going to sit back and take whatever they give me next time, which is all we can really do anyway. Especially since I'm content with what we have now.

Col. Tartleton
20-04-2010, 13:54
I've already figured out the best way to do it:

Same as the Codex Space Marines but for Chaos: There'd probably be more special rules but these are some basics. Also you'd have to pay for these guys. I wouldn't want it to be like the books where Special Characters are better AND cheaper.

Abaddon:
Warmaster: May take Chosen (and any of the four cults) as troops.
Speartip: Any squad joined by Abaddon can deepstrike without scatter and assault on the same turn as deepstriking.
Destroyer: +D6 Attacks if he takes a wound.

Ahriman:
Rubric of Ahriman: May take Rubrics as troops.

Bile:
Flesh Sculptor: May take Noise Marines as troops.

Lucius:
Duelist Supreme: In close combat Re rolls failed attempts to hit and wound and enemies re roll successful attempts to hit and wound.

Kharne:
The Axe of Khorne: May take Berserkers as troops.

Zso Sahaal:
The Talonmaster: May take Raptors as troops. +1 to reserve rolls.

Typhus:
Herald of Nurgle: May take Plague Marines as troops.

Huron:
Pirate Lord: Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Infantry (Imperial Guard stat militia types with pistols and cc weapons) may deep strike.

Erebus:
High Priest: Daemons are scoring.

Honsue:
Warsmith: Havocs are scoring.

Alpharius:
Heads of the Hydra: Half (rounding down) of your Chaos Space Marine and Chosen Units have Infiltrate and Scout and may Outflank.

But you'd still be able to take whatever cult troops you want as elites. Then have icons replaced with proper marks that do a better job and you'd be set. The current cult troops would be treated as marked equivalents of chosen and thus better then average. But they'd probably get some rules buffs to make them scarier. Beserkers should be even scarier then death company. Rubrics and Plague marines should be hardier then Legion of the Damned, Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard, etc. Just make sure the balance of power is in the CSM favor but they cost more. They're a lot older and that means better in 40k.

Lothlanathorian
20-04-2010, 21:02
I didn't really want to ramble on and on ...


This is 40K Gen. This is where we ramble.



I like Icons and I think that not having cult troops for your Black Legion makes a lot more sense. Icons represent petitioning a God for temporary favor, I think. Not the dedication required to be a Cult Troop, but something like 'Hey, we are going to be working as shock troops this battle, let's make a sacrifice to Khorne and bear his Icon in battle'/'Hey, we are going to be fire support in this battle, we let us petition the Grandfather to give us the power to hold our ground'.


Icons work with your basic Chaos Space Marine just fine. It shows a not so permanent dedication to whatever God and that they are using that Icon as more of a tool, so it could work with any Legion that isn't full of Cult Troops.

And switching between FoC slots could get confusing, but make it so that other unit types become restricted or something.