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View Full Version : Happy Happy WE's greets 8th



Alltaken
21-04-2010, 20:52
I'm feeling very positive about changes in 8th edition as a WE player (contrary to my LM).

As things seems our core gets more interesting since they score points.

heavy cavalry can't march, so this gives us more space to determine enemy movement.

our magic will now be viable according to the new magic rumors

and those 2 lines of archers now seem a little bit more interesting since they wont need to go single file style with an emcumbersome huge existance.

What do you guys think, are we really getting buffed by this? Would you even consider taking a lvl2 spell singer now? I`m feeling overall enthusiastic on this supposed changes.

Deus Mechanicus
21-04-2010, 20:58
heavy cavalry can't charge.

And if they don't have any ranged weapons they'll just be running around being easy target for WE arrows :angel:

Alltaken
21-04-2010, 21:06
sorry, it's can't march!!!

sssk
21-04-2010, 22:05
Well yes.....but.....:

Big uber units of plus 10 combat res are the current rumour, and the whole step up thing means: Wardancers and dryads will now charge in, do a few kills, GET KILLED IN RETURN (particularly wardancers) and then be doing break tests at minus a billion.

Armour will still be as it is now for wood elves (ie don't even bother attacking stuff with armour), but hordes will also be fairly unassailable.

I guess we'll be firmly in the land of "I'm not even going to think of engaging your unit unless I have something which will take away ranks".

now I hasten to add this is assuming that the current rumours are correct, and nothing spectacular happens to skirmishers. Therefore I'm keeping my proper judgement for when I have the rule book in my hands....and have read it a few times......and played quite a few games

That being said, an odd ebay purchase recently has resulted in me having 60 glade guard, which should help bring those units down to size a bit...

TheZombieSquig
21-04-2010, 22:27
I wonder if they will make dryads ranked (based on what happened to ghouls and beastmen). That may be interesting.

Apart from that, it seems like hordes will be more popular and that's not so good for WE.

cyberspite
21-04-2010, 22:46
I was just thinking the same thing today, if ranked infantry are getting to attack back with their full attacks, WE's are going to get vapourised. Does the step-up rule still apply to flank/rear charges though?

Of course this is all still hypothetical. But still, eternal guard anyone?

Condottiere
22-04-2010, 03:08
Usually, a lot of these type of advantages apply only to the direction the troops are facing; with really wide units, perhaps only the bonuses that that width, but not rank number, provide are neutralized in a flank attack.

Rodman49
22-04-2010, 21:41
Psssh, you noobs need to get a pro strat. Like Eternal Guard.

ivrg
24-04-2010, 21:34
Sure, wardancers can break an enitre unit of empire inf from the front now. But i will not complain that inf will be stronger. I think its a part of WE tactics not to just charge and brak with one unit. And dryads from one side and wardancers from the other will surely hurt inf in 8th ed too.

Personally i am happy if the rumour about firing missile weapon from 2 ranks turn out to be true. Then i can field even more small unit of WE archers that can rain death down upon the enemy. As it is now i field them in units of 10 and on one line. This sometimes creates deployment problems. And rarely a forest is so big so it can hold all 10 archers formed up in one rank. If they are in 2 ranks they can easlier hide in the forest and move with treesinging.

Spiney Norman
24-04-2010, 22:34
I wonder if they will make dryads ranked (based on what happened to ghouls and beastmen). That may be interesting.

Apart from that, it seems like hordes will be more popular and that's not so good for WE.

Ummm, not until Wood Elves get a new book they wont, and that is likely to be quite a while away (at least 12 months from now if I'm any judge)


I was just thinking the same thing today, if ranked infantry are getting to attack back with their full attacks, WE's are going to get vapourised. Does the step-up rule still apply to flank/rear charges though?

Of course this is all still hypothetical. But still, eternal guard anyone?

Eternal Guard will be more popular I think, esp as they can be taken as core with a Highborn, and are likely to get one heck of a lot of attacks to the front. I can see Glade Guard being popular too thanks to the firing in 2 ranks thing, and Glade riders as fast banner-toting objective grabbers. Out of all the armies, I think its Wood elves that will have the most adapting to do, their play style is going to have to totally change to remain competitive.

Combat skirmishers are going to be the ultimate losers in this edition I think, the only viable dance for wardancers will be the one that gives a 4+ ward since no amount of extra attacks will stop the enemy hitting you back, which means they're relegated to a support role only. Similar problem with combat light cavalry. To be honest any combat oriented unit that lacks both numbers and resilience is going to get mashed in 8th edition.

sssk
24-04-2010, 23:00
In anticipation I've got my eternal guard unit all planned out (converting them, as I'm not too keen on the proper models). I've also got plans for some very feral looking wild riders.

Most annoyingly though, a recent ebay purchase resulted in me getting a second treeman, and I've recently had an interesting idea for a dragon built virtually from scratch. surely I'm not turning against my lovely core units and heading towards monsterhammer....just when it's too late.

Inexplicably I also find myself with 24 wardancers....they'd better still be good.

Anyway, the rumours sound half good, half bad for the woodies. I can see a lot more gunlines turning up (says he with 50 glade guard) and we might even get to use magic sometimes! I'd quite like dryads to go back to ranked....though actually ranking them up may be a bit of an excersise in futility.

nightsrage
24-04-2010, 23:44
Mass Glade Guard may not be peoples play style. However, the ability to shoot from two ranks means not only a less cumbersome unit, but the ability to have twice the shots taking up the same line of site and board space.

The standard list seems to hover around 20-30 Glade Guard(its not rare to take 40). To compete I would assume the standard Glade Guard would be 40-60. These numbers would take up the same space on the firing line.

A unit of 24 Glade Guard is debatable. The 12' march block banner might come in handy allowing one more turn to fire on infantry units. The always stand and shoot banner is an option with a unit of 24 Glade Guard. If the enemy knew charging with their infantry meant taking 24 Str 4 shots first, it might make them think twice if you twiddled them down prior too arrival.(if you were willing to sacrifice a 260+ point unit)

Monsters? It is already concluded that in today’s game using mass shooting is an effective way to take out monsters(regeneration cant stop 40-50 arrows). Two rank firing gives us yet another tool to place twice the number of shots on a single monster.

To conclude, mass Glade Guard will be a strong answer to all our situations.

SHOOT THE &^*% OUT OF THEM!

Kalandros
25-04-2010, 00:13
A unit of 24 dark elf repeater crossbowelves with shields and full command will pour out 48 shots a turn on 2 ranks...

FOR THE LOW LOW COST!!! of 284 pts, plus add an assassin for the fun factor

Dantès
25-04-2010, 00:20
A unit of 24 dark elf repeater crossbowelves with shields and full command will pour out 48 shots a turn on 2 ranks...

FOR THE LOW LOW COST!!! of 284 pts, plus add an assassin for the fun factor

Always at strength 3, with a move and shoot penalty, no move through woods, and multiple shot penalty. I'd still take the Glade Guard :p

nightsrage
25-04-2010, 00:25
Not to mention a range of 24 to our 30. 6 inches can mean the differance for an entire round of shooting as we displace our position with no shot penalty.

Witchblade
25-04-2010, 03:17
If there will be fewer monsters and heavy cavalry units, that's a definite gain for WE, as we have trouble dealing with such units. The new magic system will also be more fun for us. We'll be able to make our caddies L2 and get the occasional spell off. Not that it will accomplish anything of course.

On the other hand, stepping up will absolutely and utterly destroy the potential of our combat units. Wild riders, the standard alter noble, wardancers and, to a lesser extent, dryads will be absolutely ****ed.

Add random charges and fire in 2 ranks and WE will become all and only about shooty avoidance.

The very worst part though, is objectives that require infantry with a banner... eternal guard. Not only do eternal guard suck more than an overclocked vacuum cleaner, they also make avoidance impossible. Oh and note that characters in the eternal guard unit will get slaughtered even more easily than currently due to stepping up.

I'm very pessimistic about the future of our currently splendid 6th Ed army book.

ghostline
01-05-2010, 16:07
Ive been mulling this so decided to break it down Unit by unit starting with the core.

Glade Guard: Winners, shoot in 2 ranks will make the archers perform like our old chronicles list(with only 5 wide and no move and shoot penalty, they become very manueverable).

Glade Riders: Winners, finally being able to outpace there heavily armored brethren easily.

Dryads: better. Fight in 2 ranks will work to make them more efficient. a unit of 10 dryads will pump out 21(with champion) ws4 s4 attacks at a high initiative, making them strike first most of the time. These guys may become good bait troops to set a flank or weaken an enemy. They may not hold the line, but they will put a dent in the enemy for beating them in close combat.

Scouts: Get worse, but not by a lot. They only lose the attraction of being glade guard that get 10 shots a turn.

Special:
Wardancers: Worse. There t3 and crappy ward save means they are going to be very vulnerable in close combat. There High Initiative is good so they wont be using Always strike first dance a lot.. But they still have a use in assasinating characters in a unit or supporting a unit with a flank charge, or even delaying a monster.

Eternal Guard: Better. Worse. The fight in two ranks is nice, but EG are still weak, and fight in two ranks go two ways. You can still try and tarpit with this unit, but dont expect it to last more then 2 combats.

Warhawk Riders: Worse, as far as we know, they don't benefit from really anything in the game. Always have been overpriced for what they do.

Wild Riders: Worse, One save to ruin this unit!!! While Fast cavalry get's a boost, the fear strategy(have a unit of 10, flank charge, unit auto-breaks, then banner of dwindle them for the overrun) will no longer work. These guys get hit with the Nerf bat. Still to there credit, they will work VERY well against other fast cavalry.

Tree Kin: Better. While one save to ruin them all will make them more vulnerable, the new rules for ogre size'd models might give them a boost to make up for it(or even make them a little better). The fear rule's giving them a bonus to combat res is a big plus too, as they never really relied on outnumber and fear to break opponents.

Rare:
Treeman: Still overpriced.

Waywatchers: They will remain the same.(my favorite unit in the Wood elf army)

Great Eagle: Worse. Only charge in to a combat if your desperate.

Witchblade
01-05-2010, 16:19
I doubt skirmishers will be able to fight in 2 ranks, as they do get rank bonuses. Would be pretty damn nice for WE though.

willowdark
01-05-2010, 22:06
They'd have to specifically include an exception for skirmishers to not benefit from fighting in two ranks, which I can't imagine anyone would think is a good idea.

Instead, we'll see minimum sized 8 man units of dryads and 7 man units of WD replaced by units of ten, with command, which will be a good thing for everyone. My 3x8 Dryads wll become 2x10 with champ, and my 2x7 WD will become 1 unit of 10 for my Highborn. Combo charges should still own most infantry barring insane courage rolls.

We'll have to see what the new book Lores look like to know how the Spellweaver will be effective. If Lore of Beast stays just as good and Life gets a boost, a single Lvl4 will become very powerful in the new game, possibly with the HoDA since the Alter Kindred will suffer most from stepping up and the salary cap.

Although the WS boost from the HotH might actually matter with Stepping up, but I do think that a wizard will be a better keeper for the arrow.

Spiney Norman
01-05-2010, 23:16
Scouts: Get worse, but not by a lot. They only lose the attraction of being glade guard that get 10 shots a turn.


Actually I think scouts will become must-haves for wood elves in 8th, no other army I know of can field a scouting core skirmish unit with a banner (which will make them scoring units in 8th).



Rare:
Treeman: Still overpriced.

Waywatchers: They will remain the same.(my favorite unit in the Wood elf army)

Great Eagle: Worse. Only charge in to a combat if your desperate.

You're kidding right? Treeman have never been overpriced, they'll remain as good as ever, but will gain a slight downside, they'll take up pretty much your entire rare allowance at 2K.

Great eagles actually get a boost IMHO, their main role was always charge misdirection, they're even better at that now as charge ranges are becoming random and uncertain.

Morge
02-05-2010, 01:27
Objectives inside of forests oh the possibilities.

Shiodome
02-05-2010, 02:35
or moving forests onto objectives :P

ghostline
02-05-2010, 06:07
Actually I think scouts will become must-haves for wood elves in 8th, no other army I know of can field a scouting core skirmish unit with a banner (which will make them scoring units in 8th).

Yes, but with the way unit's are suppose to move in 8th(everything like fast cav which is so ridiculous) being a skirmish unit doesn't mean all that much. Glade guard would be just as effective for cheaper.




You're kidding right? Treeman have never been overpriced, they'll remain as good as ever, but will gain a slight downside, they'll take up pretty much your entire rare allowance at 2K.

Great eagles actually get a boost IMHO, their main role was always charge misdirection, they're even better at that now as charge ranges are becoming random and uncertain.

Treeman have always been overpriced for what they do. 285 points for a large flammable target. Only LD8 stubborn. Oh yes, one save to ruin them all will weaken him.

Charge misderection for great eagles? It's just easier to ignore them. They can't negate ranks, have pitiful close combat capability, and can easily be shot out of the sky with shooting/magic. Why would you bother to charge them when you know it's just going to run away? I could see pulling it on a new player, but against a savvy opponent it wont work.


For dryads i would suggest taking units of 12. So you can get the corner attacks for a 6 wide front against a 5 man front that is common.

Shiodome
02-05-2010, 13:45
why bother charging eagles? er... because they're in the way and close enough that you can't wheel past them.:rolleyes: feel free to just not move at all if you prefer. they're called a sacrificial unit for a reason, they're for getting a units faces and forcing a decision.

willowdark
02-05-2010, 16:00
ghostline, It has nothing to do with being savvy. Dropping an Eagle directly in front of a critical unit will take that unit out of the game for at least one turn. Whether you charge it (which is the best case scenario for the WE player, so most people won't do it), reform to move around it or spend a turn shooting it while the unit in question stands still, said unit will not be able to perform its duty for that turn, and possible for the next turn. It's a 50 pt infallible roadblock for at least the first turn it lands in front of the enemy advance. And of course, it can land behind you and march block for most of the game.

The effectiveness of an eagle has nothing to do with its stat line, since you should never charge a target that has a total of more than 2 or 3 wounds, like wizards, wizard lords and warmachines.

And at I4, fighting in two ranks and I order combat shouldn't even hurt the Eagle's chances to hunt mages hiding in infantry. Notable exception would be DE sorceresses, which will be untouchable, and of course ASF HE and well armoured Chaos Sorcerers, which have always been untouchable to Eagles. Nothing about the current 8th ed rumour should effect Eagles at all. At the least, they'll become better with the emphasis on infantry in 8th, because infantry gets hurt most by march blocking.

VonUber
02-05-2010, 16:16
Combined with the new charging rumours theres going to be allot more failed charges, so more stand and shoots :D

willowdark
02-05-2010, 16:20
I see 3 unit of 10 Glade Guard becoming very common with the fire in two ranks rule. At 2x5 you can concentrate at lot of fire power with minimal risk by hugging terrain and spreading out more without restricting your own movement.

ghostline
02-05-2010, 16:29
Yeah so 8th edition isnt going to change the great eagle's it's interdiction capabilities. But it is making the world a much more dangerous place. Shoot and fight in 2 ranks will make hunting Wizards a lot more dangerous. If the wizard your hunting is in a missile or infantry unit, your chances of surviving that encounter are grim, and should you fail to go first, hit and wound with both attacks, well you lost a great eagle.. not a big loss. While before you had a better chance of surviving the strike back.

Random charge length doesn't even change it's abilitys to do it's job. Say you plop the eagle 8" in front of an empire unit to marchblock them. They charge, roll a 6, and get +1 for musician. You would have to roll three 1's on your flee roll to get caught. In the current edition there would be no possible way for them to catch you(without a special banner or whatnot).

They get worse because the new rule changes doesn't improve it's ability to do it's job, and the field it's fighting in becomes a lot more deadlier. While you shouldn't shelve the unit, you might have to adjust your tactics a little.

Lord Dan
02-05-2010, 16:40
no other army I know of can field a scouting core skirmish unit with a banner

Bretonnians, though non-scouting, have bowmen.

Wednesday Friday Addams
02-05-2010, 20:52
Bretonnians, though non-scouting, have bowmen.

Well if you take out scouting then skink count as well.

Lord Dan
02-05-2010, 23:34
Well if you take out scouting then skink count as well.

Can they take a banner now?

snowywlf
03-05-2010, 13:26
Not the skirmishing skinks.

Balerion
07-05-2010, 06:50
<snip>
Waywatchers: They will remain the same.(my favorite unit in the Wood elf army)
<snip>

I dunno about that. I just read the rumour about Killing Blow only being applied to models the same size as or smaller than the wielder. Kind of a bummer for Waywatchers, if that's truly how it will work. Cavalry/Monstrous Mounts are two of my favourite targets for them. :cries:

Spiney Norman
07-05-2010, 11:55
Treeman have always been overpriced for what they do. 285 points for a large flammable target. Only LD8 stubborn. Oh yes, one save to ruin them all will weaken him.


Lol, Treeman aren't over-priced, they're just overshadowed by some of the new broken monsters like Hydras, HPAs etc. They have an inate boundspell, a devastating short range shooting attack and they're stubborn. Within range of a battle standard (which the Welfs get cheaper than everyone else) they're a damn hard nut to crack. They're well worth their points when you compare them to something from their "era" like a Giant/Bone Giant/Stegadon.

willowdark
07-05-2010, 12:51
I certainly never thought twice about 285 points for one. But one save will hurt them, and we don't know what extent Terror is goin to change.

I can't imagine KB changing so much that Knights and Dragon Riders won't be valid targets for Waywatchers. KB has always been specifically for killing those targets. I think the changes are mostly meant to benefit things like the Ghorgon, a large target with KB that should be able to use it against Ogres. There's also the probability that they plan on working some KB into the new Ogre book.