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Mr.Rotty
25-04-2010, 10:38
Hey guys
I've been out of 40k for a little while, but thinking of getting back in with the new tyranids.
The only thing is I'm not a fan of a massive hoard army, and I dont know if tankzilla is still viable but I dont really want that :P
Is a middle ground viable?
Also is there anything I should know about the new rules?
are Carnifex's still the annhialation?
Any decent anti armour guns yet? (hive guard look pretty)

Thanks in advance :)

Thud
25-04-2010, 11:37
Yes. They're good, they have more than decent shooting and a mix is what will get you the best army.

A Tyrannofex or two, lots of Hive Guard, a Tervigon, a bunch of Gants and a Trygon.

Carnifexes are not the top dog anymore, but if you keep them cheap and take two or three in a squad, they're pretty good at around the 2k points level.

Max Jet
25-04-2010, 13:44
They do o.k, but if you enjoyed the last two Codicies you will not enjoy the play style of the new army.

Vhalyar
25-04-2010, 13:55
They are in the middle of the 40k power curve. Not bad, but not great either, with only a few tricks that are not outdone by other codices. Plus until there is a FAQ it's possible that some players will dispute the intended mechanics of certain units.

Go for it if you enjoy the Tyranid aesthetics.

Vaktathi
25-04-2010, 14:15
The tyranid books has some issues. There's a lot of mechanics that are fuzzy or disputable, and the internal balance is terrible. Now, there's a lot of cool things in there, and a lot of new army builds and some playstyle things.

However a great many of the units aren't very cost efficient (compare a hormagaunt to an Ork Boy) and army building is awkward as its difficult to build a solid all comers list that will cover all the bases well.

I haven't found them to be very challenging opponents unfortunately. They have a lot of cool stuff, but its difficult to bring together well.

ASSASSINAWOKEN
25-04-2010, 15:10
Since you have been out of 40K for awhile. Just keep in ind Tyranids are very different from previous codices and the main rules effect them very differently from previous main rules.

Hive guard models can be tough to find or order so you may end up proxying them for a bit.
Boneswords are a popular upgrade, but GW does not privde a sprue, however a 3rd party does provide a sprue.


You might want to purchase the codex first and then proceed with making a list. Once you have a couple of sample lists proceed with purchasing your models. This way you don't end up hating the army.

Buzz_Kill
25-04-2010, 15:28
I was playing against a Tyranid army yesterday, there still pretty strong, and they took out my Land Raiders and my 2 Vindicators, along with most of my force, but the Carnifexes don't look as strong any more

daboarder
25-04-2010, 15:32
They can be probably decent strength, but only if you ignore Half the codex and tailor your force to the opponent (something that is harder to do now days with Marines, Guard and Orks being top of the pile. That is understandable for those poor unfortunate Dark eldar but not for a 2 MONTH OLD codex.

The really ironic thing is that there is one army out there that the Tyranid codex is almost completely viable against and that is another Tyranid codex.

daboarder
25-04-2010, 15:42
Thats it I'm out of this thread, listen when we give you valid points mate instead of just saying "well obviously the problem is you 4 guys because I'm doing fine on my own LOL"
We have given examples and fact but that must not be enough for you therefore I say goodbye.

As to the original Topic I again direct you to the affore mentioned Tyranid 2 months on thread.

Vepr
25-04-2010, 15:55
Hey guys
I've been out of 40k for a little while, but thinking of getting back in with the new tyranids.
The only thing is I'm not a fan of a massive hoard army, and I dont know if tankzilla is still viable but I dont really want that :P
Is a middle ground viable?
Also is there anything I should know about the new rules?
are Carnifex's still the annhialation?
Any decent anti armour guns yet? (hive guard look pretty)

Thanks in advance :)

Like always it is not as bad as some say but not as good as others say. I believe they are average but I am having fun with them in casual play. Until they get a FAQ tourneys might not be as much fun due to the arguments certain rules will generate.

Codsticker
25-04-2010, 16:51
I have removed all Trolling/Insulting/ Arguementative posts as well as repsonses. If the thread continues in this vein it will be closed and Warnings issued.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

NeoMonolith
25-04-2010, 16:54
The fact is, I play versus 30 different people multiple times a week, and win with the 'bad' tyranids.
The 'veterans' play against a closed circle of friends, and lose.

Kalishnikov-47
25-04-2010, 16:55
Well to Neo's point there are some good units in the codex. That is all I can agree about with him.

The Tyranid codex has a lot of units and some that are powerful and a few that can consistently achieve what you want them to.

Lictors are still useless, Regular Genestealers are not worth it IMHO, Tyranid Shrike Broods and Raveners still are not worth it, and Mawlocs are not great at all since their awesome ability is so limited.

Now, with that said there is a lot of SYNERGY to be had in this book. A Tyrant with Hive Commander will let you rain a unit of Pyrovores to nuke an exposed unit that you need flamed. You can bring in Zoans and dont even get me started on the Doom. Hive Guard to me are just not good enough to compete in the Elites section with all the other units that provide so much more synergy.

I mean Venomthropes protect your MC's and Meatshields. Zoans destroy vehicles dead. Ymargl Genestealers have to be one of the nastiest units in the book.

For troops its Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Termagants. Reasoning? Well the Termagants screen the Hormagaunts. A unit of 30 Hormagaunts is a nice big psychological threat that can do something on the table top.

This new codex is good, the old one was decent. There were few builds in the old one to win with compared to this one.

The problem people have with this new book is making the synergy work, man players are used to using 3 units from the old book and branching out in this new one feels awkward to them probably. I know I like all the units in this book because you can figure out a way to make them work. With that said there are some USELESS units, there are some units that require synergy, and then there are units that are just plain good on their own. Such as Ymargl Genestealers.

My .02

Buzz_Kill
25-04-2010, 17:01
I think the new Codex for the Tyranids has improved, now if your a Tyranid player, you have to think more as now you can't constently throw Horde after Horde of Tyranids at your opponents, and if your playing against a Tyranid player, Like I did Yesterday, I found the game to be more enjoyable against a Tyranid player, and they've balanced the Units out aswell which is a good thing to see!

genestealer_baldric
25-04-2010, 17:13
The codex can be effective but playing it is bland boaring and repetative

Ulrig
25-04-2010, 17:15
If you are completely new to nids, go for it. Otherwise I would stray away.
The book has more then enough issues and bad writing that has already been discussed in depth in other threads, if you can look past all that, it should be your army.

However it is not top tier, and I predict the upcoming ard boyz will show this soon enough.

susu.exp
25-04-2010, 17:21
I think the new Codex has more builds than the last one and in particular mid size creatures do get to be better. Warriors lost EW, gained a wound and er now troops with lots of equipment options. This means that they are more resilient to basic weapons now and this is bought with a higher chance of dying to heavy wepons. Team them up with gaunts and you get a cover save against those. Shrike broods are flying warriors as well and there you can team them up with Gargoyles. Itīs the viability of a list build around mid size critters thatīs a novum. Add a MC or two for some special job, get some thropes to deal with tanks and youīre all set.

Laughingmonk
25-04-2010, 17:36
Well to Neo's point there are some good units in the codex. That is all I can agree about with him.

The Tyranid codex has a lot of units and some that are powerful and a few that can consistently achieve what you want them to.

Lictors are still useless, Regular Genestealers are not worth it IMHO, Tyranid Shrike Broods and Raveners still are not worth it, and Mawlocs are not great at all since their awesome ability is so limited.

Now, with that said there is a lot of SYNERGY to be had in this book. A Tyrant with Hive Commander will let you rain a unit of Pyrovores to nuke an exposed unit that you need flamed. You can bring in Zoans and dont even get me started on the Doom. Hive Guard to me are just not good enough to compete in the Elites section with all the other units that provide so much more synergy.

I mean Venomthropes protect your MC's and Meatshields. Zoans destroy vehicles dead. Ymargl Genestealers have to be one of the nastiest units in the book.

For troops its Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Termagants. Reasoning? Well the Termagants screen the Hormagaunts. A unit of 30 Hormagaunts is a nice big psychological threat that can do something on the table top.

This new codex is good, the old one was decent. There were few builds in the old one to win with compared to this one.

The problem people have with this new book is making the synergy work, man players are used to using 3 units from the old book and branching out in this new one feels awkward to them probably. I know I like all the units in this book because you can figure out a way to make them work. With that said there are some USELESS units, there are some units that require synergy, and then there are units that are just plain good on their own. Such as Ymargl Genestealers.

My .02

Wow, someone who actually doesn't use hive guard. Kudos to you sir!

I would say that if someone wanted to start tyranids, now is not a bad time. We certainly have more options, and the book IS fun to use, contrary to popular myth. If you like tyranids, the book DEFINITELY shouldn't be the reason to turn away.

However, I would warn new players that they are going to get friendly with the hobby saw, green stuff, and scultpting tool. Much of our best stuff has to be converted, and many great options also must be converted as well.

Gamewise, I would tell a new player that tyranids are not exactly an easy army to play. A read through of the book might make them seem fairly weak, and when you theory hammer nids, they come off as mediocre. In practice though, tyranids appear to be very strong when played in the right hands. The only reason I wouldn't take them to a tournament is because there are so many rules that we need a FAQ for, which could drastically change our game.

NeoMonolith
25-04-2010, 17:42
I'm assuming what people on warseer say is true, and that people don't lie about what they play, and where they play. Futile, I know.
Most say they play in small clubs, against the same faces, and whine that tyranids are bad.

I play in six clubs, against some 30 different people in total, so I get to pit my tyranids against all armies, except chaos demons, and I haven't had any more or less problems against any of them.

genestealer_baldric
25-04-2010, 19:05
Wow, someone who actually doesn't use hive guard. Kudos to you sir!


i think they may work but between deathleaper, doom and podding zonthropes i have no ellite spaces left.

Worsle
25-04-2010, 19:19
This new codex is good, the old one was decent. There were few builds in the old one to win with compared to this one.

The problem people have with this new book is making the synergy work, man players are used to using 3 units from the old book and branching out in this new one feels awkward to them probably. I know I like all the units in this book because you can figure out a way to make them work. With that said there are some USELESS units, there are some units that require synergy, and then there are units that are just plain good on their own. Such as Ymargl Genestealers.

My .02

While I might not agree with all your points I think this is a fairly good summery of what the new book is like. Some dud units but no more than other books but a lot of stuff needs to work in combination with other elements to make the list gel. For example warriors need MCs (1 to 1 preferably) so force people into working out where or not to ID the warriors or take out the MC.

NeoMonolith only problem is your 6 clubs might not contain as many good players as say 1 club some other guy plays in. Playing more people is not the same as playing better people nor would it tell you as much, but things like that are very hard to judge. What is even worse is without a proper competitive scene (to much comp and soft scores muddying the waters) we have no way of learning anything from tournaments either. So in the end we have just a lot of anecdotal evidence that really don't tell us much even if you do try and put it all together.

Laughingmonk
25-04-2010, 19:30
I'm assuming what people on warseer say is true, and that people don't lie about what they play, and where they play. Futile, I know.
Most say they play in small clubs, against the same faces, and whine that tyranids are bad.

I play in six clubs, against some 30 different people in total, so I get to pit my tyranids against all armies, except chaos demons, and I haven't had any more or less problems against any of them.

Sounds like a fun time. But, you do realize that a small gaming group presents its own challenges, right? Your opponents start tailoring against you. They make it a point to start leaning how to disassemble your army.

I actually agree with you on a lot of your points Neo. Actually, I would go so far as to say that most people do. The issue is that whenever someone disagrees with you, it is usually responded to with an ad hominem. Furthermore, you are just one player. You could be winning as a statistical anomaly. Your opponents could also suck. Just because there are a lot of them doesn't mean they are good in any way.

NeoMonolith
25-04-2010, 19:30
We don't have any comp or soft scores here that I know of, except in the capital's tournaments.
I avoid playing there because of this, as do most others.

However, me playing against 30 different people on a regular basis means there's a greater chance of bumping into an 'elite' player, than you achieving the same thing while playing against a fixed group of 2-5.

What I'm trying to say is, I play people pretty much all over the country - and people in other countries when life takes me there - and I have yet to encounter an army, a build, or a book that's significantly harder for tyranids to deal with than all others out there.

Worsle
25-04-2010, 19:46
That might be true but I was just pointing out that because of the state of tournaments as a whole and the fact I don't know you or the players you play against it means I have no real way of evaluating what you say against any standard. So it just ends up as a lot of antidotes and the plural of anecdotes is not evidence. It also not that I disagree with your point on nids either just wither you play one person or thirty I have no way of evaluating the use of that. If you get what I mean.

Oguleth
25-04-2010, 21:04
Only playing against them, and never really playing against competetive builds, the codex seems interesting for casual play. However, I would not want to be a nid player to play against mech spam of various versions, for example.

And trygons/mawlocs do keep the big nid lists a possibilty, even if carnifexes suck...

ASSASSINAWOKEN
25-04-2010, 21:22
@ NeoMonolith

@ Kalishnikov-47

Would either of you two mind sharing some of your lists?

Hicks
26-04-2010, 03:17
In my case they suck bad vs the metagame. Every army I face is mechanised and full of special weapons. That means you have a hell of a time popping transports to actually be able to hurt the other guy's troops and he as units capable of vaporising an MC in one shooting round, or flaming away 25 gaunts.

The army can work, but making sure you have MC approved terrain and the Doom of Malantai is realy going to make a difference.

ChaosVC
26-04-2010, 04:25
Like someone said, the good stuff needs conversions and if you can't or have difficulty doing that, you may have to rely on deep striky and reserve tactics to make your tactics work wonders...pretty one trick pony.

NeoMonolith
26-04-2010, 11:33
Twin alphas.
Six to nine hiveguard.
Two small units of warriors with swords and burst cannons.
Two large, but still manageable, units of gants.
Either two large units of gaunts, or twin tervigons.
Two large units of gargoyles.
One unit of proxied flying warriors.
Triple trygons.

I can mix in a hive tyrant, bunch more gaunts, a third unit of warriors, up to two zoanthropes, two carnifex, TONS of ripper swarms, a bucket of genestealers, one unit of biovores, and probably some other bits and pieces.

The reason I don't is because the above list works better without those things.
In larger games, I proxy carnifex as tyrannos, and use the hive tyrant.
The plan is to get a second tyrant, and invest in one or two guard for each, because they're really nice in huge games.

ReveredChaplainDrake
26-04-2010, 14:51
A quick rundown, as the 2-months thread and the Tyranid Tactica are on the TL;DR side:

+ Tyranids actually now have viable options for popping Transports. Hive Guard are for getting light vehicles, and Zoanthropes are for getting heavy ones that come in too close. Tyrannofexes can handle vehicles from far away, but isn't that reliable due to a mediocre BS. But at least it's there. This alone makes Tyranids more viable than most give them credit for. Unfortunately, it also makes them more cookie-cutter than most newer codecies.

+ Hormagaunts have finally had their points costs amended to make them a genuine horde. It may seem expensive to upgrade Hormagaunts to toxic Hormagaunts, but 6 toxic Hormagaunts can outfight 8 Ork Boyz any day, especially considering the Hormagaunts are likely to get the charge. You could upgrade them to adrenal Hormagaunts as well (or both toxic and adrenal if you can spare the points!), but this makes them about as pricey as they used to be. Adrenal Glands help Hormagaunts against vehicles, but glancing tanks to death with assaults is a poor man's solution considering the anti-tank options Tyranids have. At any rate, the horde is now competitive again.

+ Ambush units. Tyranids have quite a number of ways of getting right into an enemy's line, as well as ways to get at units hiding far away. We now have Mycetic Spores, which are basically glorified Drop Pods that can be bought for single units. They generally won't be as effective as Marine pods simply because Tyranids don't bring in a whole lot of powerful close-ranged shooters. There's also the Trygon, which can burrow around, the Mawloc, which can pop up and re-burrow repeatedly, the Deathleaper, which can stalk around the enemy's poorly defended back lines, and Hive Tyrants can now buy an upgrade that not only boosts your Reserves rolls, but allows a Troop unit to outflank. Finally, there's the Swarmlord, who amongst other things can allow you to re-roll where your Outflanking units arrive.

- Stupid rule wordings. Do not play the Tyranid codex in a competitive area. Not that the Tyranids can't handle the meta (the only thing that gives Tyrandis major headaches are the IG with their baker's dozen Chimera regiments), but there are a lot of... obscure rules interpretations that can be argued. For instance, Tyrant Guard now no longer have a clause that protects their Hive Tyrant from being shot at, and the defense of your Tyrant pretty much hinges on how your opponent interprets "exactly as if it were an Independent Character". Generally, it's mostly stupid stuff that the average player will realize the intent of, but a rules lawyer will pick you and your codex apart.

- Stupid units. A good number of units in the Codex simply aren't worth using because there are other units in that same force organization slot that just want it / need it more. Venomthropes are a good example. Fairly decent unit on their own. They offer really nice buffs to big ol' Gaunt units, and pretty much any Tyranid unit close to them. If they were Fast Attack, they'd be a staple... but they're Elites. Simply by fielding them, that's one less unit of Hive Guard / Zoanthropes you can field, and the latter are far more important. No amount of Gaunt buffs will compensate for the utter inability to scratch armor. Ditto in comparison between the Carnifex and the Trygon. The Carnifex has some cute rules, like brooding up with other Carnifexes (so long as they're all homogeneous; no wound allocation games here), but they don't even begin to compare to what you get for your points in a Trygon.

AFnord
26-04-2010, 15:14
Lictors are still useless, Regular Genestealers are not worth it IMHO, Tyranid Shrike Broods and Raveners still are not worth it, and Mawlocs are not great at all since their awesome ability is so limited.
I don't entirely agree with you. I have been doing really well with my stealers, shrikes & raveners. Still not used a mawlock, and lictors are still rather iffy (which is a bummer, as I love the 3rd edition lictor model, of which I have 2).

I've been playing nids quite a bit since the codex release, and while i'm still doing better with my main army (orks), i've been doing rather well with my tyranids as well. The codex's internal balance is not as horrible as people claim, and "most" units are in fact useful. What is a shame is that you almost need hive guards & zoantropes in an all comer list, which cuts back on army customization quite a bit, as two elite slots are taken, by default. There are other ways to deal with transports, but none are as reliable/cost efficient as these two. On the other hand, what else in the elite slot do you actually want? Lictors? Nah.Pyrovores? Eh... no. A special bug? Yes, possibly (doom & death are both rather useful, according to people. I've not used either yet). Where I have found that the codex really shines is in fast attack & troops. Hormagaunts are finally well priced (some claim that orks are flat out better, but hormagaunts are faster, and have a higher I, which makes up for their lower survivability and lack of shooting). Termagaunts are cheap, as expected, and can be buffed by a tervigon (another thing that I have yet to use, but a lot of people seem to love. Tervigon spam stinks tough, at least against someone who knows what he/she is doing, you need a bit of hitting power in your lists as well). Shrikes are expensive & fragile, but also rather hard hitting, and fast, gargoyls are cheap, ravenors are fast and kill things that are not specialized in close combat. All in all, I find the nid codex to be a well crafted book, with a few issues. It needs an official FAQ, but until then, i'll go with the INAT FAQ rulings, which clears up a lot of issues.

Hoodwink
26-04-2010, 16:30
I don't understand all the hate against tyranids.

90% of the "problems" with Tyranids stem from bad wordings or units that have little to no use. That's fine. I will not claim an army to be terrible because the wording is bad (even though some of it is RAI, but I won't get into that) or because there are units with no real value (because every codex has them).

The only other 10% or so of the problems come from Anti-Armor. Nids have plenty of options to shoot transports from a distance (HVC, Rupture cannon, zoanthropes, hive guard, death spitters, etc.). They MUST resort to a few options to pop AV13+. Namely these are MC melee, Zoanthropes, and Rupture Cannons.

That said, many people unfortunately don't understand how to make their army work together. They just want to throw everything at an opponent and hope they win. They can't have a melta in every squad. They can't have a powerfist/klaw in every squad.

There seems to be an underlying problem that people don't like Nids now because they are very specialized. One unit is Anti-Armor, one unit is anti-infantry, one unit is a harasser, etc. If you are able to work together and make your army mesh, yes Nids CAN be very good. They just require far more finesse to use than previously needed. A lot of people are turned off by this. Especially the older Nid players.

You really can't rely on one unit to practically win the game as with a lot of other armies. You have to play Nids very similar to how you play chess. You have to think ahead and figure out how to manipulate your army so one unit will allow another unit to deliver its payload. You can't just throw your models at the enemy and hope to win.

rmthedude
26-04-2010, 17:10
Yeah Nids are fine provided you don't mind the badly written rules, new boring background, barmy points values and front cover that looks like it's been drawn by a 5 year old!

SPYDER68
26-04-2010, 17:15
The codex can be effective but playing it is bland boaring and repetative

That is a matter of openion.

To me.. IG is the most boring to play with and against.

i played ig for a good time and with the new codex they got boring to play, and i never found 1 person who actually like playing against the army.

Vaktathi
26-04-2010, 17:47
but 6 toxic Hormagaunts can outfight 8 Ork Boyz any day:confused:

6 toxic hormagaunts (at 8pts each) with 12 attacks against 8 orks hit 7 times (the 1 successful reroll included), wound 3.5 times, and 6+sv means Orks lose 3 guys.

5 orks (at 6pts each) attack back with 15 attacks, 10 hit, 5 wound, 4.166 fails saves, round this so 4 gaunts die, Tyranids lose combat by 1.

The gaunts lose that one. The gaunts are faster yes, but the orks also have a pistol to do *something* beforhand. Granted getting the charge would change this, but the Orks would have the greater benefit from charging as well, even if the gaunts are a little more likely to get the charge.

This is the problem I see as endemic to the Tyranid codex, stuff is just overcosted almost everywhere. Some of it may look fairly cheap, but the cost efficiency just isn't there.

Vepr
26-04-2010, 18:45
I don't understand all the hate against tyranids.

90% of the "problems" with Tyranids stem from bad wordings or units that have little to no use. That's fine. I will not claim an army to be terrible because the wording is bad (even though some of it is RAI, but I won't get into that) or because there are units with no real value (because every codex has them).

The only other 10% or so of the problems come from Anti-Armor. Nids have plenty of options to shoot transports from a distance (HVC, Rupture cannon, zoanthropes, hive guard, death spitters, etc.). They MUST resort to a few options to pop AV13+. Namely these are MC melee, Zoanthropes, and Rupture Cannons.

That said, many people unfortunately don't understand how to make their army work together. They just want to throw everything at an opponent and hope they win. They can't have a melta in every squad. They can't have a powerfist/klaw in every squad.

There seems to be an underlying problem that people don't like Nids now because they are very specialized. One unit is Anti-Armor, one unit is anti-infantry, one unit is a harasser, etc. If you are able to work together and make your army mesh, yes Nids CAN be very good. They just require far more finesse to use than previously needed. A lot of people are turned off by this. Especially the older Nid players.

You really can't rely on one unit to practically win the game as with a lot of other armies. You have to play Nids very similar to how you play chess. You have to think ahead and figure out how to manipulate your army so one unit will allow another unit to deliver its payload. You can't just throw your models at the enemy and hope to win.

There is definitely synergy available to the Tyranid player and it can be quite powerful but Tyranids are not a forgiving army if you make any mistakes. Against players that know what they are doing Tyranid synergy is also fairly easy to interrupt and I think that is a big part of the problem.

Hoodwink
26-04-2010, 18:47
Except the gaunts get 18 attacks on the charge, leading to roughly 10 hits, 5 wounds, maybe 1 save. 4-5 casualties on the ork side.

We'll say 4 of the 8 orks are left. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 0-1 save. 4-5 casualties on the gaunts.

Math leads more on the Gaunts side to cause 5 casualties and only take 4 wounds tops, assuming there are only 3 orks left. Gaunts would win on the charge, which they would more-than-likely get.


There is definitely synergy available to the Tyranid player and it can be quite powerful but Tyranids are not a forgiving army if you make any mistakes. Against players that know what they are doing Tyranid synergy is also fairly easy to interrupt and I think that is a big part of the problem.

Oh yeah, they aren't easy to play. But the same goes, a good player will also provide his synapse with screens to keep them up. A good player also recognizes the equilibrium of having small, mid-sized, and MC units too. Too much of one tends to cause problems. They can most definitely be good and aren't hampered by their dex as a lot of nay-sayers put out. They require more finesse and tactics now than previously.

Vaktathi
26-04-2010, 18:54
Except the gaunts get 18 attacks on the charge, leading to roughly 10 hits, 5 wounds, maybe 1 save. 4-5 casualties on the ork side.

We'll say 4 of the 8 orks are left. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 0-1 save. 4-5 casualties on the gaunts.

Math leads more on the Gaunts side to cause 5 casualties and only take 4 wounds tops, assuming there are only 3 orks left. Gaunts would win on the charge, which they would more-than-likely get.

I wasn't doing the match for the charge. If either charges they have a significant advantage.

That said, Orks charge (lets assume they don't use their pistols or another 1-2 gaunts would be dead before combat was joined) , orks lose 3 guys, and wipe out gaunts (lose 3 before striking, hit with 20 attacks, hit on 3's wound on 3's, 5/6 fail saves, ~7.5 dead gaunts). Gaunts charge, kill 1 more Ork than normal on average.

Orks pack more punch on the charge and in subsequent rounds. The only time the more expensive gaunts win is if they get the charge, and they lose in subsequent rounds if it goes on.

Also, gaunts aren't *hugely* faster than the orks. Their run move is more consistently higher, but the Orks can get a Waaagh fleet and can run in other turns as well. Plus, they can shoot.

Codsticker
26-04-2010, 18:55
Please make use of the Edit function instead of double posting.

Thank you. :)

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Hoodwink
26-04-2010, 19:15
Yeah my bad, brain isn't working Cod :P

But back to the Gaunts VS Orks scenario: Boyz are widely accepted as being undercosted for what they are. It'd be the same if I was comparing the DOOM to practically anything. He's far underpriced for what he does. Doesn't mean that other units are overpriced. Just that he is imbalanced.

Or... Orks are where they need to be and practically everyone else in the game is overpriced.

Vaktathi
26-04-2010, 19:30
Yeah my bad, brain isn't working Cod :P

But back to the Gaunts VS Orks scenario: Boyz are widely accepted as being undercosted for what they are. It'd be the same if I was comparing the DOOM to practically anything. He's far underpriced for what he does. Doesn't mean that other units are overpriced. Just that he is imbalanced.

Or... Orks are where they need to be and practically everyone else in the game is overpriced.

Well, IIRC Phil Kelly did admit to undercosting Orks to combat las/plas spam and get people to use blast and template weapons towards the end of 4E.

That said, given that Orks have been pretty well established for the last couple years and we've seen other units similarly "costed" (Grey Hunters) and the shift in the metagame since then, I'd say that it's pretty fair to state the Gaunts were just overcosted, even at 5/6pts each. If Hormagaunts had been WS4 with Adrenal Glands base, they'd be ok at 6pts, lower T than an ork, but a little faster and higher Init. They also however crucially lack the hidden 3A powerfist that give Ork Mobs that incredible versatility. The Termagant also faces similar issues. Compared to a guardsmen, it's got a more powerful gun, but shorter range, no double-tap (although can follow up with assault), worse armor, no frags, lower Ld, and no heavy/special weapon capability.

The book as a whole seems to have this issue throughout much of it.

Comrade Penguin
26-04-2010, 19:50
Let me preface this by saying that I was one of those players that voted "good" on the original tyranid poll. However, after about three months of playing I would place nids in the bottom tier of the 5th edition codexs. Sure there are older codexs that are worse (Tau, necrons, demon hunters), but they will be getting new codexs eventually. Lack of grenades, expensive and fragile MCs and mid sized creatures, useless units, low leadership, gimmicky units, and ineffective tarpits really hurt this army. Most opponents know how to counter our much revered "synergy" and tyranids have a really hard time against players who tailor their lists against them. You will do very well against someone who has never seen/played a nid codex since there are a lot of surprises you can throw at your opponent. Avoid people who play nids on a regular basis however.

Also, guard murder bugs. Chimeras can carry 4 plasmagun wielding vets with BS 4, all of which have an effective range of 27 inches. That's eight plasma shots that wound on a 3+ which you get no armor save from... and could potentially kill one tyrant or trygon per turn. Now imagine you are sitting across from 4-5 of these plasma packing chimeras and tell me how your MCs will avoid them. But you will probably have to move towards these chimeras because your opponent will be dropping griffin shells on your lil ones and battle cannons on your warriors. Once you do reach combat you could be facing a squad of 50 men with stubborn LD 9 and counter attack due to Straken... all of which attack first because they are in cover. And all of this is under 1750... man I hate guard :shifty:

So in summary, this is my list of 5th edition codexs in order of their power level:
1) Guard
2 or 3) BA or Space Wolves
4) Nilla Marines
5) Nids

What truly worries me is that every other new codex that gets released will land somewhere below rank 1 and above or equal to rank 4.

Just thought I would provide a counter-point to all those cautiously optimistic posters out there :angel:

Hoodwink
26-04-2010, 21:05
Let me preface this by saying that I was one of those players that voted "good" on the original tyranid poll. However, after about three months of playing I would place nids in the bottom tier of the 5th edition codexs. Sure there are older codexs that are worse (Tau, necrons, demon hunters), but they will be getting new codexs eventually. Lack of grenades, expensive and fragile MCs and mid sized creatures, useless units, low leadership, gimmicky units, and ineffective tarpits really hurt this army. Most opponents know how to counter our much revered "synergy" and tyranids have a really hard time against players who tailor their lists against them. You will do very well against someone who has never seen/played a nid codex since there are a lot of surprises you can throw at your opponent. Avoid people who play nids on a regular basis however.

Also, guard murder bugs. Chimeras can carry 4 plasmagun wielding vets with BS 4, all of which have an effective range of 27 inches. That's eight plasma shots that wound on a 3+ which you get no armor save from... and could potentially kill one tyrant or trygon per turn. Now imagine you are sitting across from 4-5 of these plasma packing chimeras and tell me how your MCs will avoid them. But you will probably have to move towards these chimeras because your opponent will be dropping griffin shells on your lil ones and battle cannons on your warriors. Once you do reach combat you could be facing a squad of 50 men with stubborn LD 9 and counter attack due to Straken... all of which attack first because they are in cover. And all of this is under 1750... man I hate guard :shifty:

So in summary, this is my list of 5th edition codexs in order of their power level:
1) Guard
2 or 3) BA or Space Wolves
4) Nilla Marines
5) Nids

What truly worries me is that every other new codex that gets released will land somewhere below rank 1 and above or equal to rank 4.

Just thought I would provide a counter-point to all those cautiously optimistic posters out there :angel:

- Frag grenades have been taken out to balance out the fact that this is an incredibly CC-oriented army. It's done out of balance and the fact CC controls a lot of the game flow. Nids win in CC by numbers. Some units still have grenades, but many people deem those units ineffective. If every unit had grenades, other armies would stand no chance whatsoever in CC. Several units can also get lash whips which pretty much negates not having frag grenades as well.

- The only MCs that are really "expensive and fragile" are the Carnifex and OOE. The Trygon is accurate in price, same with Mawloc. The Tervigon is almost a steal for what it can do. The Tyrant is a bit iffy, but even it can easily make it's point-cost worth it. Tyrannofexes are in the same boat. Tyrannofexes could use about a 20 point drop, same with Carnifexes, but they really aren't THAT overpriced. The Carnifexes from 4th were ridiculously underpriced and people are so used to that.

- Low leadership is there to force you to use Synapse, which will make you Fearless and Ld10. It's the whole point of Synapse.

- Inneffective tarpits? You can potentially have over 200 models on the board that have Furious charge, Counter assault, Toxin Sacs, sporatic FNP, and have a ranged attack. Besides possibly orks, who has a more effective tar pit? Maybe IG... but then you would have far fewer tanks to deal with.

- You are going to have a hard time against ANY army that tailors their list to beat yours... that's kind of the whole point of tailoring a list. You stray from an all-comers list to make sure you can beat 1 specific opponent.

- Comparing an army to one of the best builds in the game is silly. You can say the same thing about almost every other army in the game. IG is considered the most competitive. They can have builds that are incredibly hard to beat for ANYONE. You even say it that you hate Guard... so why even relate something as being bad to IG...

Vaktathi
26-04-2010, 21:14
It is no longer that marine books are C:SM+ but rather just different, you can not copy and paste a good SM list into SW or BA and expect results (well other than razorback spam between SM and SWs). Or non-cult CSM's to SW's. :p Seriously I can make pretty much my exact CSM list minus the Daemon Prince as an SW list and come up with a cheaper force that gains Counterattack, basically swapping a DP for a Wolf Lord, and having a good chunk of change to spare.


That is one of the misnomers of 40k internet knowledge Tau are a bad army despite having good tanks and railguns. While orks are seen as good despite having the worst transport in the game and terrible anti tank options.Their tanks are decent, but their troops are terrible and they lack the tools to deal with many of the threats that newer books are putting out. Railguns alone do not make AT. 3 BS4 railguns on average don't even ensure 1 dead chimera a turn. Tau are very good at taking care of small numbers big scary things, but very poor at dealing with quantity. Orks conversly can tarpit quality and overcome it through numbers, and are very good at dealing with quantity. Trukk's also aren't bad for what they are. They are fragile, but get in quick, and are less painful for passengers than any other transport when destroyed, plus you can assault from them. They aren't always amazing, but they certainly aren't the worst transport in the game.



Frag grenades have been taken out to balance out the fact that this is an incredibly CC-oriented army. It's done out of balance and the fact CC controls a lot of the game flow. Nids win in CC by numbers. Some units still have grenades, but many people deem those units ineffective. If every unit had grenades, other armies would stand no chance whatsoever in CC. Several units can also get lash whips which pretty much negates not having frag grenades as well. Orks can take them. Berzerkers come with the base. many CC oriented armies come with them or at least have access to them. For nids, without even the option to buy them, it hurts quite a bit. Access to frags would not have made Tyranids OP in any way that I can think of.


Inneffective tarpits? You can potentially have over 200 models on the board that have Furious charge, Counter assault, Toxin Sacs, sporatic FNP, and have a ranged attack Gaunts set up in this way still wouldn't be stupendously effective and mechanization shuts that whole deal down quick. Also, being Fearless and losing assaults destroys such units very quickly. IG tarpits work because they are Stubborn Ld9 with rerolls, they wouldn't work well if they were Fearless as the casualties they'd take just wouldn't hold up.

Comrade Penguin
26-04-2010, 22:06
I admit my rating system is purely my opinion, but this opinion is based on reading all the codexs, playing multiple game against each, and observing other games. Despite what some people may believe, some codexs are more powerful than others. I believe that most veterans can compare two codexs and decide which has more offensive potential. In tournament play guard dominated last year, and will probably continue to do so.

As to the lack of frag grenades, this is painfully brutal when playing against a competent foe. They know to place units in cover, and can force many wounds own our units that have poor armor saves.

Tyranids are far from the best CC army out there, and usually under perform if you build a pure CC list. We don't have invuln saves or frag grenades, nor do we have the proper transports to get us into CC. Nids are a combined arms force, utilizing both bioweapons and CC.

Gants are awful tarpits. They strike last when charging into cover, die horrendously to combat res, hurt their fellow MCs in CC because of combat res, and can't take hidden fists or special weapons. Orks are a far better and scarier tarpit, but guard are hands down the best due to stubborn ld 9 with re-rolls.

I agree the tyrgon is priced appropriately, but the tyrant and carnifex die way too easily. A 3+ armor save means you are losing wounds to basic bolter/heavy bolter fire. I have lost many tyrants with this codex due to a heavy bolter shot or failed combat res save.

Sorry for attacking the tau, but most tau players would agree that their codex is pretty awful. Its no reflection on the players, just the outdated codex ;)

Revelations
26-04-2010, 22:09
- Low leadership is there to force you to use Synapse, which will make you Fearless and Ld10. It's the whole point of Synapse.
I'm tired, so I can only reply to one thing, and this is it. It's not a good thing to force players to take units to compensate for a Low Ld value. And in most cases, Synapse being present merely makes you Fearless with a Ld of usually 6-8, leaning on the 6 side of things. If this is the point of Synapse, then it's poor design and even poorer implimentation.

Have you ever purchased a product only to realize that in order to use it the way it's intended is with some random update that should have been implimented with the original release or with some secondary system you didn't want? I for one, don't believe the sales rep when he tells me that it's an overall bonus. If I'm going into the store with a set amount of cash to spend on something I want, I'm not about to buy something extra for more just to get said first item.

Hoodwink
26-04-2010, 22:15
Something is going way wrong if you are losing Tyrants to bolter fire. That alone tells me people are completely going off the deep-end in trying to make Tyranids look as bad as possible.

1-in-2 will hit, 1-in-6 will wound. 2-in-3 saves will be made. It would take 90 bolter rounds to ensure a Tyrant dies. If you go to armoured shell, it would take 360 shots to ensure a dead Tyrant...

Orks and Tyranids share a very similar relationship. Both require another component to be high Ld. Orks just need numbers. Thin the numbers and you lower the Ld. Well that's just as stupid I guess.

Comrade Penguin
26-04-2010, 22:24
Something is going way wrong if you are losing Tyrants to bolter fire. That alone tells me people are completely going off the deep-end in trying to make Tyranids look as bad as possible.

1-in-2 will hit, 1-in-6 will wound. 2-in-3 saves will be made. It would take 90 bolter rounds to ensure a Tyrant dies. If you go to armoured shell, it would take 360 shots to ensure a dead Tyrant...

People aren't relying on bolters to kill tyrants, but they can and do get lucky with weapons that traditionally aren't for taking down MCs. Maybe they are firing a scatter laser or assault cannon. Or maybe they are just trying to get lucky with strikes in combat. The point is that the tyrant's mediocre armor save makes him so much harder to keep alive. For example, in a game yesterday I lost a combat against a guard blob with a tyrant and a squad of hormagants. He attacked the tyrant a few times but could not get past the toughness 6. Then he wiped the gants out and forced 12 combat res wounds on the tyrant. The tyrant survived but he lost three wounds due to the gants around his feet dying :wtf:

A 2+ save would have ready helped there, but now you have to sacrifice speed to get it. And I really don't think walking tyrants are very effective.

Hoodwink
26-04-2010, 22:28
I've watched grots kill terminators. Doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

Assault cannons have probably killed more AV14 than most any other weapon I've seen. I don't think it's that odd to kill MCs.

Use a Tervigon to FNP your Tyrant when he starts to go into CC. He will gain even more resistance and can negate a lot of the combat res wounds.

Vaktathi
26-04-2010, 22:44
Vaktathi no nids have some thing viable in mobile weapons Not quite sure what you mean by that.


while the orks have the joke of a transport. Seriously this should not even be up for debate there is no worse transport than the trukk. Well, it is, and I'm not the only one of that opinion. It's not meant to be used like a wave serpent where it lives all game and you hop back in and jet around. It's an assault skateboard, and works quite well at this if you use them correctly.

In terms of just raw stats, sure, AV10 open topped non skimmer isn't great. But for working well as an assault skateboard to get stuck in as fast as possible to give your units a reach they otherwise would not have had, they work great. All mechanized trukk bound orks are not great, I won't say they are, but the Trukk does give a good deal of speed to units that need it and a couple units of boyz in trucks along with large footslogging mobz can give you a nice staggered wave effect where your opponent may have to concentrate on eliminating the fast boyz at the expense of dealing with the inevitable horde getting stuck in a turn later.



Now as the the Tau I think your problem is you have no seen them in action by anyone playing them properly. http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/02/armies-in-5th-tau-part-1-crisis-suits.html Kirby being a fellow poster on warseer did a lovely series of articals on the Tau, 6 part on explaining why they work in the 5th edition. You really should read it as he explains it better than me but really the tau have about every thing you could want to work in the 5th edition. I've read some of them, some of it is informative, some not so much. The part 6 list I don't find to be particularly compelling because of the paucity of scoring units. A couple dozen kroot in two units and 6 fire warriors does not a good list make for taking objectives. It's not terrible, but you can pack similiar firepower into many SM lists and be far more competent in CC as well. I've played armies very similar to this quite often and haven't really felt too threatened by them unless I'm playing my Tau as well or my Eldar. I haven't lost to Tau in over a year between a varied array of opponents.

The changes to LoS, skimmer rules, and transports have made Tau a much less powerful army compared to in 4E when tracked armies were terrible at mech and the Tau were great when they were built so close to the 4E LoS and skimmer rules.

rmthedude
26-04-2010, 23:04
Back on topic guys.

Nids are poorly written, poorly designed and over pointed. If you are looking to start a 5th ed army then look elsewhere. The codex really is a joke!

If you want an assault alien army then Orks are fun and rock hard on the table top, if you want a gamblers alien army then Daemons are the way to go. If you fancy something challenging yet powerful go for Eldar. If you want cool models go for any of the above. Sadly Nids simply don't cut the mustard in comparison.

daboarder
27-04-2010, 00:40
all nid weapons are also weaker than they were last edition for absolutely no reason at all.

MasterDecoy
27-04-2010, 01:19
all nid weapons are also weaker than they were last edition for absolutely no reason at all.

evididence to this conclusion?

Fleshborers are only slightly weaker due to the loss of LA
Spinefists are about the same.
Devourers are stronger with more shots as are H-Dev's.
Deathspitters are about the same but changed from blast to A3
Both versions of strangler are about the same
the VC is about the same, but instead of -2 became -1 on the vehicle chart and is now blast
the HVC is -1S but now blast and -1 instead of -2 on the Vehicle chart
Warp blast is the same.
Warp lance is the same, but is now a lance.


not seeing a lot of weaker guns there.

Vepr
27-04-2010, 01:26
evididence to this conclusion?

Fleshborers are only slightly weaker due to the loss of LA
Spinefists are about the same.
Devourers are stronger with more shots as are H-Dev's.
Deathspitters are about the same but changed from blast to A3
Both versions of strangler are about the same
the VC is about the same, but instead of -2 became -1 on the vehicle chart and is now blast
the HVC is -1S but now blast and -1 instead of -2 on the Vehicle chart
Warp blast is the same.
Warp lance is the same, but is now a lance.


not seeing a lot of weaker guns there.

The stranglers on the MC's took a hit in strength, the old strangler was brutal compared to the new one on MCs. Kind of hard to judge on the death spitters because they are so different. They are basically burst cannons now. Venom cannons became harder to hit with due to the low BS on the models and moving to a blast templates with only 1 shot.

daboarder
27-04-2010, 01:30
actually its not even as clear cut as that list makes it seem because the weapons are no longer effected by the Tyranid using it.

MasterDecoy
27-04-2010, 01:46
The stranglers on the MC's took a hit in strength, the old strangler was brutal compared to the new one on MCs. Kind of hard to judge on the death spitters because they are so different. They are basically burst cannons now. Venom cannons became harder to hit with due to the low BS on the models and moving to a blast templates with only 1 shot.

Venom cannons where bassically A2 before (A3 on tyrants), and the platforms that could take them where BS2 (3 if upgraded, and 4 for tyrants). You could twin link them for a ridiculous amount of points making them slightly better.

For Carnies and warriors 2 shots (at a S range of 6 -> 10) would result in 56.5% chance to hit with at least 1 shot, 75% chance to get at least 1 hit if you upgraded their BS and 0.81% chance to get at least 1 hit for twinlinking and a whopping 93.75% chance to get at least 1 hit with the BS upgrades and Twinlinking (mind you, thats a 40 poinnt gun, plus extras).

The current version's are S6 or S9, all of the platforms that can take them are BS3 (or 4 is a prime is in the same unit of warriors) the scatter dice has a 33%chance of getting a direct hit outright and the template would probably have to scatter greater than 3" for the hole to miss completely on most standard sized vehicles. So thats a 33% chance plus the dice would have to scatter at least 7" or greater to miss. rolling equal to or less than 6 on 2d6 has a 41.66% chance of happening so the chances of landing the hole over the vehicle your firing at is at about 61.5% or a 85.2% if your using the TLHVC on the harpy.

Not really bad odds at all as far as Im concerned, ande the newer versions are A LOT cheaper.

as for the stranglers, well anything over S6 is kind of wasted on infantry so the loss of 2 points of S isnt really bothersome.

daboarder
27-04-2010, 01:53
that loss of 2 points of strength on the BS is a HUGE hit, its the loss of Insta gibbing meq and threatening light/medium tanks.

MasterDecoy
27-04-2010, 01:56
of all the games I played, I reckon I would have isntagibbed 1 meq character with my strangler (well over 100 games) and blown up maby a dozen or so AV12 vehicles. Mind you, the current HSC can still threaten Light (AV12) vehicles just fine, but thats not its primery use, its anti infantry, anything else is square pegs through round holes.

Comrade Penguin
27-04-2010, 02:14
Most of the weapons I used got worse. I used to love my deathspitter warriors. A small blast template that is range 24 and str 6 is way better than a str 5 three shot gun at range 18. My warriors used to be able to hang back at mid range and drop a ridiculous amount of pie plates, now they have to get close to the enemy to make those shots count. The loss of range has really hurt these guys and they have been dying quite a bit lately. Don't forget that the BS 3 hurts those three shots more than it did the blast template.

Barbed strangler used to be stronger. Fleshborers got worse when they lost their living ammunition. Spine fists got worse because you have to pay an extra point for them now. Venom cannon was never great, and I don't think like the new one very much either.

The zoanthropes and biovores got better overall, and devourers also saw an improvement. However the improvement of the devourer is counter by the increase in the base cost of the two creatures that carry it: the tyrant and carnifex.

So we got a handful of nerfs, two to three improvements, and a slew of new weapons that are rock solid. Problem is that the units that have the really good guns require you to buy new models (hive guard). The veteran nid players got screwed by losing our sniperfexs and our shooty warriors are much much worse. But if you have money and you are starting the army from scratch, then I say go for and good luck!

Vepr
27-04-2010, 02:22
that loss of 2 points of strength on the BS is a HUGE hit, its the loss of Insta gibbing meq and threatening light/medium tanks.

I miss it against Nobs.

Kalishnikov-47
27-04-2010, 02:37
Sorry I did not realize I was going to miss such good arguments haha. I was just putting in my two.

I like when people disagree that way we can talk about the game and the hobby.

Any who, I will agree Warriors do need MC's or a big unit of Hormaguants to stand behind.

@ ASSASSINAWOKEN

I don't have a list off hand but if I made one I could give you the list of units in an 1850.

Hive Tyrant- Hive Commander Lash Whip and Bonesword and Scything Talons.
Tyrant Guard x3
Zoan x2 in a Pod
10 Ymargl Genestealers

Warriors x5 with Lash Whip and Bonesword
Hormagaunts x30
Hormagaunts x30

Trygon-Prime, Adrenal Glands
Trygon-Prime, Adrenal Glands

I havent played it but on paper I like it. I mean 4 units come in on turn two on a 3+ (unless IG) the Trygons and Zoans are the AT, the Ymargls are the wild card to kill what I need killed. The Hormagaunts are their to draw fire from the other units as a psychological factor. The Warriors play a huge role in being able to mess up almost any unit. I almost wanted them with just Rending claws and scything talons so I could get the third Zoan, but I lke the ability to be able to effectively fight MEQ and charge into cover.

There would be some units that would be swapped out after a bunch of play testing but I like it. I like the Tyrant in there for the AT and the CC monster he is. I think there is some room for improvement in this list since it hasn't been playtested but I think against most opponents it would do quite well.

Back to the book. I think it is a good codex when the synergy is done right, and some even really bad units that seem to have no worth on paper can have their uses like the Pyrovore. Its all bout synergy which is apparent in all of Cruddace's codices (I know 2 right).

I still cant find a use for say shrike broods, or some other units like lictors. I wont disagree with other people here for finding its uses but fly warriors will only be a psychological threat IMHO since they are expensive and should only be used on generalist units like Marines, Guardsmen, certain Orks, Tau (in general). They should not ever be used against CC specialists even when properly equipped. 5+ save will get you nowhere in this game.

ReveredChaplainDrake
27-04-2010, 07:50
...daemons dominated tournaments for a while. That does not mean the daemon codex was that good just that people did not know how to deal with them despite there problems so I think that blows the idea that good players can just look at a codex out of the water...
I feel I must bring up a correction to this. Yes, Daemons dominated the tournament. Y'know why? Because they were a 5th edition codex playing in a 4th edition rules set. Daemons used to be so powerful they were unfair to use for a while, and then 5th hit and we all went "ooooooooh, so that's why Daemons were insane...".

This is an extremely unusual scenario, and not likely to ever happen again.


Fleshborers are only slightly weaker due to the loss of LA
This still makes them weaker.


Spinefists are about the same.
But their points cost went up, making them not as numerous as they once were. Also factor in that Tervigons can't birth any other Termegant besides the Fleshborer-armed one, and Spinegaunts have become proxy fodder.


Devourers are stronger with more shots as are H-Dev's.
They also lost Living Ammunition. (Granted, Devourers still scale up to bigger creatures, unlike the other weapons.)


Deathspitters are about the same but changed from blast to A3
Shorter range, and the fact that Blast was better against Infantry.

Both versions of strangler are about the same
Hardly. They just got homogenized to either a Warrior-scale Strangler or a MC-scale Strangler. It only really got better on the Tyrant.


the VC is about the same, but instead of -2 became -1 on the vehicle chart and is now blast
the HVC is -1S but now blast and -1 instead of -2 on the Vehicle chart

Yeah, becoming Blast is huge when you consider that this is supposed to be our race's most iconic anti-tank gun. In 5th, the VC went from being unable to destroy a tank, to virtually unable to hit the tank. How is that not worse?


Warp blast is the same.
Only it requires a psychic test now. So not only can your Zoanthropes fry themselves with perils (happens rather frequently when you fire them in a battery), but it can be shut down by any anti-psyker gear. Also, the Tyrant used to be able to take Warp Blast, but not anymore.


Warp lance is the same, but is now a lance.
not seeing a lot of weaker guns there.
I'll throw you a bone and agree with you here. You also forgot to mention the AP1, which is probably even more important than Lance. You can penetrate armor all day, but it takes statistically about 3 pens to get at least a wreck in 5th edition. That +1 on the damage table is huge.

In regards to the Tau issue, the Tau are victims of the premature departure of the early 4th edition's design philosophy. It's strongly believed that 4th was supposed to last a lot longer than it did, or at least that was the thinking at the time, and thus the Tau was based on mechanical concepts and a metagame that not only don't work now, but didn't even survive very long after the codex's writing. For instance, I'm sure Kroot would've been priced differently, or at least have been given a more respectful Initiative, if it was known that Frag Grenades would (1) become near-universally free, and (2) would allow the users to strike at Initiative, as opposed to simply simultaneously.

MasterDecoy
27-04-2010, 15:29
Most of the guns are comparable for much much cheaper (spinefists aside), which makes them better inherently.

As for the HVC, Ive already mathhammered out the probability if you bothered to read it, it is essentially a 1 shot gun at slightly under BS4 (lets go at 3.5), Its very comparable to a las cannon, except its a blast.

ghoulio
27-04-2010, 17:42
Most of the guns are comparable for much much cheaper (spinefists aside), which makes them better inherently.

As for the HVC, Ive already mathhammered out the probability if you bothered to read it, it is essentially a 1 shot gun at slightly under BS4 (lets go at 3.5), Its very comparable to a las cannon, except its a blast.

How do you figure the guns this edition are cheaper? All the big weapons like HVC, Stranglethrone cannons and MC Devs all have substantially more expensive platforms and a lot of the smaller weapons either got so much worse that their point drops dont matter (specifically flesh borers and deathspitters). Also, to say that Death Spitters are "comparable" is silly in my mind. Basically, 4th ed all the Tyranid warriors were armed with the current codex's venom cannon (str 6 blast) which you now have to pay 15-20pts for and it has a damage penalty for vehicles. You used to be able to get a heavy venom cannon for 128pts (on a carnifex) and it was literally a Rutpure Cannon with an armor penalty. Now the single cheapest platform for it is 170pts, while the old school venom cannon is 265pts (ie rupture cannon on a Tryannofex). Also, I have used the new HVC in about 20 games, 2 tournaments, and I have to say it is now one of the worst guns in the game. It literally does nothing well. It is horrible for blowing up tanks, it is not great at killing troops (great, you can MAYBE ID 2-3 models if you hit, which you have a 33% chance of doing before you roll for distance). At least with the 4th ed Venom Cannon it had a defined roll and you pretty much did something with it every turn, wether it be blowing off a gun, stunning something, immobilizing a tank, etc.

Comrade Penguin
27-04-2010, 17:48
How do you figure the guns this edition are cheaper? All the big weapons like HVC, Stranglethrone cannons and MC Devs all have substantially more expensive platforms and a lot of the smaller weapons either got so much worse that their point drops dont matter (specifically flesh borers and deathspitters). Also, to say that Death Spitters are "comparable" is silly in my mind. Basically, 4th ed all the Tyranid warriors were armed with the current codex's venom cannon (str 6 blast) which you now have to pay 15-20pts for and it has a damage penalty for vehicles. You used to be able to get a heavy venom cannon for 128pts (on a carnifex) and it was literally a Rutpure Cannon with an armor penalty. Now the single cheapest platform for it is 170pts, while the old school venom cannon is 265pts (ie rupture cannon on a Tryannofex). Also, I have used the new HVC in about 20 games, 2 tournaments, and I have to say it is now one of the worst guns in the game. It literally does nothing well. It is horrible for blowing up tanks, it is not great at killing troops (great, you can MAYBE ID 2-3 models if you hit, which you have a 33% chance of doing before you roll for distance). At least with the 4th ed Venom Cannon it had a defined roll and you pretty much did something with it every turn, wether it be blowing off a gun, stunning something, immobilizing a tank, etc.

Agreed, I would take the old deathspitters any day over the new ones. I would also take the old barbed strangler and venom cannon on a fex. The old weapons definitely got worse, besides the biovore and warp blast of course.

Kalishnikov-47
27-04-2010, 19:35
Thats why many lists nowadays are leaning toward CC. There are only a few certain units in this book that actually have some good DAKKA. However, Carnies with dual Scything talons in a Pod is really nice AT. I take Trygons for their versatility and the fact that they can murder a Marine squad. 7 Str 7 In 5 attacks on the charge with rerolls to hit? yes please.

Codsticker
02-05-2010, 19:27
I have removed a number of off-topic posts. Please try to keep the discussion on topic; that is, "How are Tyranids These Days?" not "Which codex is the most powerful?" or whether or not the Ork Trukk is the worst transport in the game.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

grand dragonsoul6
02-05-2010, 20:21
tyranids are still pretty cool and well worth playing
XD