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antin3
25-04-2010, 18:24
I just finished reading Legion and I have a question.
The cabal tells the primarchs that one of two things will happen. Either Horus will prevail and chaos triumph and Horus will then raze the galaxy, or the Emperor will win and be entombed in the golden throne and there will be a slow stagnation as chaos seeps back in to claim everything.
Ok so I get that, but when Alpharius asks what they can do to stop it the farseer tells them that they must ensure that Horus wins? And then when they at first say no they are shown what will happen which staggers them.
Why must they let Horus win? Humans are screwed either way and chaos will triumph no matter what, am I missing something here?

Enazel
25-04-2010, 18:32
If Horus had won, the idea is it would have burnt out as fast as it arrived and within centuries the place will be a lot better.

Simo429
25-04-2010, 18:43
humans are screwed but the galaxy and its other races are not although the eldar were obviously a little short sighted because they didnt notice that it wasnt chaos that would consume the galaxy but the nids and necrons

MasterGideon
25-04-2010, 18:55
Remember elder, like the Emperor manipulate people to create events to benefit themselfs, and there race as a whole.

And also I have a theory that no one can see their own future. The Emperor could not see horus being turned, or his legions being corrupted because he was blinded by his own ability to see his own future.

In some ways what happends to elder happends to the Imperium, they are destroyed by their own pride and resulted in a mass scism that has lasted for 10,000 years. Just be glad we the Heresy didnt cause a 5th chaos god!

MasterGideon

Simo429
25-04-2010, 19:13
Remember elder, like the Emperor manipulate people to create events to benefit themselfs, and there race as a whole.

And also I have a theory that no one can see their own future. The Emperor could not see horus being turned, or his legions being corrupted because he was blinded by his own ability to see his own future.

In some ways what happends to elder happends to the Imperium, they are destroyed by their own pride and resulted in a mass scism that has lasted for 10,000 years. Just be glad we the Heresy didnt cause a 5th chaos god!

MasterGideon

i think perhaps we should look to the matrix

you can't see the choices you dont understand, the emperor would never be able to understand why his favoured son would turn against him so he couldnt see it

Shamutanti
25-04-2010, 19:37
I just finished reading Legion and I have a question.
The cabal tells the primarchs that one of two things will happen. Either Horus will prevail and chaos triumph and Horus will then raze the galaxy, or the Emperor will win and be entombed in the golden throne and there will be a slow stagnation as chaos seeps back in to claim everything.
Ok so I get that, but when Alpharius asks what they can do to stop it the farseer tells them that they must ensure that Horus wins? And then when they at first say no they are shown what will happen which staggers them.
Why must they let Horus win? Humans are screwed either way and chaos will triumph no matter what, am I missing something here?

Horus winning was the 'best' of a worst case scenario. The human race was going to die, and it was valued it better to happen over a much rapid period of time, so the galaxy could continue on, as opposed to slowly declining, which would mean many more races, planets, etc. would die because the human race was around.

It was more practical for the human race to hurry up and finish killing each other so life could continue.

Pragmatic legion at its very best.

Buzz_Kill
25-04-2010, 19:42
Man, this book sounds like D-DAY for Humanity, i must order this book, it sounds so good!

MasterGideon
25-04-2010, 20:14
i think perhaps we should look to the matrix

you can't see the choices you dont understand, the emperor would never be able to understand why his favoured son would turn against him so he couldnt see it

Indeed, the matrix is a good example of what happend IMO! never thought of that.

I was thinking more Jolee bindo in KOTOR, and he was trying to explain that one if is students had a "great" destiny, but as a result of him knowing he had a "great" destiny he tried to understand it, and as a result strayed from the path, became evil and got killed, but as a result of him being killed he caused a massive chain re-action that destroyed some major flagship or space station and furfilling his destiny. Be ages since i played that game, but the moral of the story is simple dont try and harness your destiny, you need to embrace it.

If the Emperor had told his sons the true about everything, then maybe he could have avoid his own demise and acutally achieved his great destiny for the humanity.

MasterGideon

Trick
25-04-2010, 20:21
Man, this book sounds like D-DAY for Humanity, i must order this book, it sounds so good!

Best book in the series in my opinion.
Can't wait for Night Lords to get their turn!

Trick

Gaargod
25-04-2010, 20:23
By looking at the future, the future changes.

What the Cabal didn't mention was the 3rd possibility. That the Emperor wins AND survives. Obviously, the possibilities are lowish but i doubt they were improved by the alpha legion defecting.

There's also the whole star child theory, but that's being phased out.



Assuming the Alpha legion REALLY didn't believe in either of them, he's making the right choice. This way, humanity burns out in a few hundred years. The other choice is to have humanity live for several thousand years but in a horrible society, and will destroy the rest of the galaxy too.

sonsoftherock
25-04-2010, 23:36
SPOILER ALERT!

I thought the point of this was to imply that the Alpha Legion are actually Loyalist.

As I recall the choices were. Join the heresy and have Horus win and destroy humanity quickly, taking Chaos down with them or stay loyal and Horus still wins but Chaos then takes over the galaxy.

Obviously the Alpha legion joined the heresy and neither of these things have happened, so it seems to me that the Alpha Legion chose to join the Heresy and fight it from within. As it says in the book "The Alpha legion are and always have been loyal to the Emperor".

I have had a chance to chat to Dan Abnett at a book signing about this and he did seem to confirm it (the language always has to be a bit circumspect as there may be someone about who hasn't read the book and won't thank you for having it spoiled).

This is one of my favourite Horus Heresy book as it turns a fairly boring Chaos legion that I had never been terribly interested in into a really interesting legion that seems to have had a pivotal effect.

Having said that it seems to be a bit of a common theme as A Thousand Sons certainly portrays them as strongly loyalist but misguided. Another book I really enjoyed as it has Ahriman as the (heroic) protagonist i.e. Ahriman not a d**k shocker!

Buzz_Kill
26-04-2010, 19:13
By looking at the future, the future changes.

What the Cabal didn't mention was the 3rd possibility. That the Emperor wins AND survives. Obviously, the possibilities are lowish but i doubt they were improved by the alpha legion defecting.

There's also the whole star child theory, but that's being phased out.



Assuming the Alpha legion REALLY didn't believe in either of them, he's making the right choice. This way, humanity burns out in a few hundred years. The other choice is to have humanity live for several thousand years but in a horrible society, and will destroy the rest of the galaxy too.

Basically the Ultimate sacrifice to save the rest of the Galaxy

Inquisitor_Tolheim
26-04-2010, 20:36
There's also the whole star child theory, but that's being phased out.


Never! It was a clever theory, and ironically humanity was creating a 5th chaos god of sorts by their blind faith. I like to think of it as magnificently obscure for old time players, rather then completely written out.

SeaSwift
26-04-2010, 20:49
I wasn't aware that the theory was being phased out, I just thought GW didn't mention it much any more because the 'present day' in the 40K galaxy will never get anywhere near that.

Basically, they can't advance the story line because if the Emperor died/Rhana Dhandra (sp?) actually came close to happening lots of bad stuff would happen and models would be redundant, along with pages and pages of fluff.

Although it would be kinda cool to find out once and for all that the Emperor IS the Old Ones' last plan, and that he foresaw a future that even the Cabal couldn't see, and they had races for more ancient and wise than the Eldar.

Just remember, Cegorrach will win. Nobody can defeat mocking or irony. Or scary harlequins.

Quaade
26-04-2010, 20:56
The Star Child is mentioned as late as in one of the novels that were published around Battle Field Gothic came out.
A Changer of Ways is musing about how it will end when the Golde Throne finally gives out and the Emperor ascends to become the ultimate asskicker and reel in humanity's nascent psychic turmoil, turning them into the greatest race of psykers the universe have ever seen and wiping out the 4 gods in the process.
He's not pleased about the prospect and goes back to his galactic chessboard where Tzeencht himself and the Emperor is trying to out-Xanathos Gambit each other.

The whole Star Child thing has never been countered nor refuted in any later novels, it's just not spoken about but it still exists as canon.
Given how the space marine psykers are churning out powers of destruction, I think it's safe to assume that for now humanity has the potential still.
Eldar will probably still outpsyker them when they get their updated book, only in different and more subtle "buffs" way than "I'll make the earth swallow you whole."

Simo429
26-04-2010, 21:40
i like the star child theory

gives some hope for the imperium and i also like how cypher is linked in with that

grissom2006
26-04-2010, 22:03
Not this again this is covered to death in the background forum which is where this post should be.