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MetalTurk
25-04-2010, 23:27
I don't know if this has been covered in the past, I didn't see anything.

I was at a GW the other day and I asked why we've seen so much about the new plastic Daemon prince model but it still hasn't released, and the manager working told me he heard a rumor that the mold broke. Has anyone else heard this or is there other information out there pertaining to this? I really want that model.

Chaos and Evil
25-04-2010, 23:32
The rumour that the mould broke / was dropped is fairly common now.

Azzy
25-04-2010, 23:44
"The mold broke" is an excuse that has been thrown about for years and years whenever a project is "delayed" (read: not released when people want it to be). You can rest assured that in this case (just like like in previous cases), that it's 99.9999% likely that it's just regurgitated BS. On the (extremely) off-chance that it's true, color me surprised.

Moral of this story: Whenever someone says the mold broke, roll your eyes and don't believe a word of it.

Venkh
26-04-2010, 00:02
Hopefully they realised that it was below par for such a centre-piece model and decided to scrap it and start again or at least recut the mould and give it more detail and definition.

MetalTurk
26-04-2010, 00:05
I liked it. The only thing that wasn't fantastic was its tiny head. Still, I really want a plastic Daemon prince model so I can make my own Angron, the current model seems like it would be too difficult to work with.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
26-04-2010, 00:31
It would be a rotten shame if they did decide to scrap it and rework it because I, and I am sure I am not alone, liked it rather a lot. Still one day it might see light of day.

As for the excuse 'the mould broke.' :wtf: Ha ha ha. Whatever. Retail managers seem to be the culprits for this load of tosh. It has been said before but it really is a case that they just don't want to talk about it or don't know enough and don't want to talk about it. So they use this line to shut you up. I remember them saying this about the plastic land raider.

Moulds for plastics are called 'Dies' and are basically a large half ton block of steel. It is not generally known for its breakability. I am sure some engineering people will say this is wrong but seriously it's not very likely for them to keep breaking all the time or GW would have found a much more reliaby material. Steel not fine bone china people. I would imagine if they did drop one the concrete floor would break before the steel did.

'The moulds broke/someone dropped it' = 'I have no idea.':cries:

calypso2ts
26-04-2010, 00:36
I am an engineer and you are spot on Erazmus. While accidents do happen, it is unlikely that the 'mold broke' and even if it did it is likely they could replace it using the original 3-d models for the mold (I am sure it was not a custom job). Further, it is unlikely it was 'dropped' molds are extremely expensive to fabricate or even develop in the first place. Once a successful design was found, it would be foolish to trash it for the sake of investing the thousands in a new old (which is only a portion of the development cost).

The real challenge in injection molding is setting the mold up to get consistent high quality results with the level of detail they desire.

jdp
26-04-2010, 02:26
Steel not fine bone china people.

ROTFL! I have heard the mold broke a few too many times for this to sit with me. Not to say this hasn't happened in the past in the industry, When Monogram bought the molds from Aurara when they went bankrupt in the 70's during shipping there was a train wreck that literally broke dozens of molds. The molds were melted into blocks and cut into new molds. that being said I saw the new plastic highelves that were cut and scrapped back in the late 90's. So it could be a case of it just didn't meet expectations compared to some of the other plastics which came out just before it and they are starting afresh.

evilsponge
26-04-2010, 03:35
We let Jerry Butterfingers handle the one and only copy of it, and wouldn't you know he dropped it! How does that guy still have a job.

destroyerlord
26-04-2010, 03:36
The real challenge in injection molding is setting the mold up to get consistent high quality results with the level of detail they desire.
Maybe this was the problem? We have had GW pull some metals from production before due to quality control issues, but I've never heard of plastics cancelled for that reason.

rabblerouser
26-04-2010, 05:00
I think it's a load of BS because if it did indeed break (which i doubt) they could easily cut another one

I think there are three more believable explanations
1 - they are holding it back because it will be tied to a big chaos release
2 - there were quality control issues (then again this hasn't stopped GW from producing rhinos)
3 - they didn't think it was a good model and scrapped it - while this is expensive, it has happened before

MetalTurk
26-04-2010, 05:33
I think it's a load of BS because if it did indeed break (which i doubt) they could easily cut another one

I think there are three more believable explanations
1 - they are holding it back because it will be tied to a big chaos release
2 - there were quality control issues (then again this hasn't stopped GW from producing rhinos)
3 - they didn't think it was a good model and scrapped it - while this is expensive, it has happened before

It seems like number 1 is most probable, considering that the chaos Daemons still haven't received models for a good deal of their units, and the only release they've seen was the models that came out with the codex release.

Of course, who knows when we'll see those. I don't imagine Chaos Daemons is one of their big sellers, considering how infrequently I've seen them.

Mr. Ultra
26-04-2010, 05:51
We let Jerry Butterfingers handle the one and only copy of it, and wouldn't you know he dropped it! How does that guy still have a job.

I'm sure that Mr. Butterfingers is a reliable and capable worker and we can trust him with that precious and unique mould. Considering he was the one who works with the Dwarf Lord/Standard Bearer plastic kit... :rolleyes: :D

duffybear1988
26-04-2010, 11:05
To be fair im pretty sure that if you left me in a room with the aformentioned daemon prince mold and the current muppets running GW then I could break the mold... along with some skulls :D

Lord Malorne
26-04-2010, 11:13
I'm not bothered either way, the model is not very good, it's only redeeming feature is being better than the metal (fantasy) one.

Chaos and Evil
26-04-2010, 11:31
Moulds for plastics are called 'Dies' and are basically a large half ton block of steel.
The actual moulding insert (the part with all the detail, known as the tool) only weighs a few KG, and is little larger than the sprue itself.

Kaelarr
26-04-2010, 12:34
Having seen gw's manufacturing plant, and how they do stuff, the "broke the mould" excuse is nonsense.

They have more then 1 mould for everything, they dont just cast 1 plastic deamon prince at a time, they do 20 something (I forget how many slots there are on the moulding machine....)

Animatronica
26-04-2010, 12:39
Hey Taylor!

yeah, that and they have the whole Computer-resin-laser-machine-thing now, and im pretty sure everything plastic is sculpted 3D and just "printed" into resin

but i do love the idea that there could be just one mould for everything and all it takes is one guy dropping it to destroy that model forever, as the entire processing plant staff drop to their knees and cry NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Wintertooth
26-04-2010, 12:43
I've always assumed it's a misunderstanding of the word 'dropped'. Dropped from the schedule, not dropped physically.

Azhrarn
26-04-2010, 15:28
The moulds are made from steel for the plastics, because of the high pressures involved.
If it was somehow damaged or malformed re-cutting it would take quite a while. Steel doesn't exactly mill itself. Not to mention that each mould costs about 250,000 pounds.

Physically dropping it however, would most likely dent the floor and little else.

CitizenNick
26-04-2010, 15:37
Of course, who knows when we'll see those. I don't imagine Chaos Daemons is one of their big sellers, considering how infrequently I've seen them.

But this model would sell for at least four armies: CSM and Daemons in 40K, and Warriors of Chaos and Daemons in WHFB.

The last time we saw this model, it appeared alongside plastic Seekers of Slaanesh. Why these models haven't shown up is really odd, but I don't believe the "mold broke."

calypso2ts
26-04-2010, 16:56
While creating a die for an injection mold is expensive, I can almost guarantee it does not cost $250,000 pounds (500,000 U.S. dollars) to create a single mold. I have seen Jet Fighter actuators precision cut out of a solid block of Titanium for less, and the tolerances on those things are MUCH tighter than a GW plastic Daemon Prince.

You can actually 'print' the model out of a rapid prototyping machine in many cases, but you would probably use a CNC multi-axial mill to cut the DP mold.

Nightsword
26-04-2010, 17:03
He's added too many zeroes :D

steveb
26-04-2010, 17:05
25,000 would be closer to the mark though GW own their own plastics division so putting a precise cost on it is difficult.

Keichi246
26-04-2010, 17:51
Personally I think "someone dropped the mold" is actually a secret catch phrase for "Damned if I know"... :evilgrin:

However - never underestimate the possibility that the mold can be "broken" or rendered useless for production casting fairly easily. I worked peripherally with a plastic injection company back in my younger days and heard about a time period there when more than a few dies failed catastrophically due to a "request" by management to reduce the safety margins engineered into them - to increase production capacity. They tried to reduce the "dead space" in a few areas so that more components could be cranked out in each batch. Problem is - reducing it too far can cause a weak point on the die.

They may be stainless steel and it may be "merely plastic", but when you involve moving parts, pressure, and heat - the oddest things can and do happen. In the case I heard about- one of the interior walls of the die warped without QA noticing it until two days and many thousand pieces later... oops...

Getifa Ubazza
26-04-2010, 18:37
I must admit, I am getting rather miffed at how long this kit is taking to come out. All my Chaos armies are going to need at least one each. So theres Five right there.

CitizenNick
26-04-2010, 19:04
I must admit, I am getting rather miffed at how long this kit is taking to come out. All my Chaos armies are going to need at least one each. So theres Five right there.

Oh yeah, I'd buy at least two, maybe more.

Kalishnikov-47
26-04-2010, 19:07
I kinda want them to redo it. I dont find the model that appealing. I like the armoured Chaos Marine Daemon Prince we have now. If they release the one they have had in production for who knows how long now then I will be sorely upset. The only redeeming quality as Lord Malorne stated was the the fact that it is plastic.

However, when you compare it to the Daemon Prince's now in the CSM range I feel it is underwhelming to say the least. I love the armour and the fact that the Daemon Prince's Armour has fused to his skin and become "alien" in its own right.

When they released the Daemon Prince of Nurgle during the Medusa V campaign I was so excited that model to me is top notch. However if they could figure a way to make it plastic and have the same armour then I would be a happy camper.

I realize it also has to be functional enough to also be used in the Fantasy setting, so then that begs the question could they include two different types, one armoured and one not? I just have a hard time embracing something with scant armour and having to justify it with a 3+ save....

Alot of people may love that model but I find it only fills the Fantasy portion with that model. In short, I want my Daemon Power Armour.

Hoarmurel
26-04-2010, 19:15
This matter has already been said in many threads, but nobody knows what's the true reason because GW doesn't release this model yet...

The "break mould" thing sounds simply quite false for me, is very intriguing that they showed the model in the Planetstrike book and other places, but they are not release it yet...

gork or maybe mork
26-04-2010, 19:32
I am holding onto the (forlorn bloody and broken) hope that they withheld it for the actual codex csm (as opposed to codex spiky loyalists).

jullevi
26-04-2010, 20:12
3 - they didn't think it was a good model and scrapped it - while this is expensive, it has happened before

It is also possible that they never even made the mould for Daemon Prince. It wouldn't be the first time that official pictures had pre-production resin models instead of real deals.

gunmonkey
26-04-2010, 21:16
I think the "the mould broke" is just a phrase passed down from the higher ups in GW: if a mould has plastic injected into it, and Space Marine minis dont come out the other end, its deemed broken and scrapped :D

I think they just havent deemed it a viable release right now, production could be held up with the sets for WHFB 8th and such. Only way we will ever know is if someone inside the GW plant spills the beans....and that would cost them a job.

qwertywraith
27-04-2010, 00:07
It is very strange that they have not released it considering how many splash releases there have been. Maybe they are holding out for a second wave, but we've had planetstrike and now spearhead with no new chaos models. It may be that they can only produce so many kits at a time and wanted to focus on IG and marines (which make them tons of money of course).

Maybe they want to redo it because they didn't like the model, but that didn't stop them from releasing the minotaurs and the pumbagor. Maybe the mold did get damaged or maybe there was a problem with casting it that produces lots of miscasts. They may be able to create it digitally but there's no guarantee it would be feasible once they started producing it.

Anyway, I'd like it to make some princes as well as fodder for conversion to a greater daemon. It's a nice kit but needs modification to fit in 40K, which is fine. It's just too bad it looks very fantasy and sucks in both armies you can use it in.

Chem-Dog
27-04-2010, 01:13
Of course, who knows when we'll see those. I don't imagine Chaos Daemons is one of their big sellers, considering how infrequently I've seen them.

Codex Chaos Space Marines: HQ option, up to 2
Codex Chaos Daemons: HS section, up to 3
Chaos Warriors Army Book: Lord Choice
Chaos Daemons Army Book: It's in there but don't ask me where.

That's four Army Books across two games systems, you can guarantee that a DP kit would sell. I'd also wager that if this Kit saw the light of day we'd be seeing a few more of the associated armies.


The moulds are made from steel for the plastics, because of the high pressures involved.
If it was somehow damaged or malformed re-cutting it would take quite a while. Steel doesn't exactly mill itself. Not to mention that each mould costs about 250,000 pounds.

Physically dropping it however, would most likely dent the floor and little else.

I'm not going to wade too far into this particular subject because it isn't an area I have any understanding of BUT if a mould consists of two or more componants that need to be exactly alligned, it's entirely possible that dropping it could mess with that, admittedly it wouldn't necessarily require a completer re-tooling, but it cause huge delays.


I have seen Jet Fighter actuators precision cut out of a solid block of Titanium for less, and the tolerances on those things are MUCH tighter than a GW plastic Daemon Prince.

The Actuators don't have to contend with the warping power of chaos though ;)


I like the armoured Chaos Marine Daemon Prince we have now........Alot of people may love that model but I find it only fills the Fantasy portion with that model. In short, I want my Daemon Power Armour.

I've heard this a lot and I'm wondering if GW have taken heed of this, while personally I see little reason that a DP would feel compelled to somehow maintain the SM silhouette or even appear to be wearing anything even resembling armour (not to mention Non CSM DP's), perhaps the majority of their feedback (even just within the company) has been in favour of an oversized SM with gribbblyness added.

It's also occurred to me that they MIGHT want to incorporate the ability to make a Greater Daemon with the DP kit.

Pacorko
27-04-2010, 01:26
Not to mention that each mould costs about 250,000 pounds.

Your cost estimate is way off... for a toy soldier mould, that is.

But yes, I do agree: "the mould broke" is quite the bit of rubbish when dealing with with moulds for plastics.

I'm afraid that as with everything in real life, it's was simple as: "the pototype looked good, we did the 3-up, it was cack, so... we just cackcanned i... erm... I mean the mould broke after all the fantastic details and great stuff in the sprue, such a tragic loss!"

Still, I'd be nice to see some future project dealing with this.

Kalishnikov-47
27-04-2010, 01:42
I've heard this a lot and I'm wondering if GW have taken heed of this, while personally I see little reason that a DP would feel compelled to somehow maintain the SM silhouette or even appear to be wearing anything even resembling armour (not to mention Non CSM DP's), perhaps the majority of their feedback (even just within the company) has been in favour of an oversized SM with gribbblyness added.

It's also occurred to me that they MIGHT want to incorporate the ability to make a Greater Daemon with the DP kit.

Well from every bit of artwork I have seen with a Daemon Prince (in 40k) It is always in its armour albeit overgrown. I can find merit in them trying to mazimising this kit. Hell, with those new river trolls I am going to try and make a Great Unclean One.

All things considered I think they need the one in armour because that is the only style of Daemon Prince I have ever know. I wouldnt mind having this new Daemon Prince that has been shown. However, I just feel like the model itself fits into the Fantasy niche as opposed to being more functional in both game systems.

Itsjustagamenotlife
27-04-2010, 02:53
They might as well just say, "uhhhhh, the dog ate the mold. Sorry." I'll bet they're laughing their faces off in some room filled with money.

brassangel
27-04-2010, 04:05
Well from every bit of artwork I have seen with a Daemon Prince (in 40k) It is always in its armour albeit overgrown. I can find merit in them trying to mazimising this kit. Hell, with those new river trolls I am going to try and make a Great Unclean One.

All things considered I think they need the one in armour because that is the only style of Daemon Prince I have ever know. I wouldnt mind having this new Daemon Prince that has been shown. However, I just feel like the model itself fits into the Fantasy niche as opposed to being more functional in both game systems.

If I'm not mistaken, there is fluff for both systems describing Demon Princes that have been around forever and two Wednesdays. In the 40k book it speaks of Demon Princes who have existed in the Warp since before men took to the stars (ie: ancient champions from the "Old World" still existing in the Warp). That would certainly seem to pre-date Space Marines and power armor.

MajorWesJanson
27-04-2010, 04:58
I'd imagine a plastic DP with Wings option and no armor, and the current metal ones moving to collectors range.

Kalishnikov-47
27-04-2010, 05:20
If I'm not mistaken, there is fluff for both systems describing Demon Princes that have been around forever and two Wednesdays. In the 40k book it speaks of Demon Princes who have existed in the Warp since before men took to the stars (ie: ancient champions from the "Old World" still existing in the Warp). That would certainly seem to pre-date Space Marines and power armor.

I can totally agree with that. However, I started playing at the beginning of 4th almost 3rd. I played Blood Angels. I only knew the Daemon Princes with armour which is why I say such nonsense.

I would have no problem with a plastic daemon prince. I just like the daemon armour that goes with it haha.

philbrad2
27-04-2010, 06:31
Little news or rumour in this and a solid helping of conjecture, off to 40K GENERAL for this.


PhilB
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daboarder
27-04-2010, 06:35
I saw a Plastic deamon prince built to look like it had a set of Space marine armour. It was done with the kit and looked very cool, I'll see if I can find the picture again.

Found It!

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3166&d=1245500763
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3167&d=1245500772

Kalishnikov-47
27-04-2010, 13:45
See I would have no problem with the Daemon Prince Model Looking like that at all. Well maybe if the legs were armoured now that I am looking at it. But you get what you pay for haah.

jesusjohn
27-04-2010, 16:57
Methinks maybe a release for spearhead maybe?

qwertywraith
27-04-2010, 18:10
It occurred to me that it's probably a marketing decision. They have a lot of Daemon Prince models in metal still in stock and on shelves. Releasing a new plastic kit will mean sales of those kits (in fantasy and 40K) will go way down, possibly to zero, so they want to clear old stock before they produce a new kit. This may also be why we still have the old metal chaos dreadnought.

Adramalech
27-04-2010, 23:31
I think it's a load of BS because if it did indeed break (which i doubt) they could easily cut another one

I think there are three more believable explanations
1 - they are holding it back because it will be tied to a big chaos release
2 - there were quality control issues (then again this hasn't stopped GW from producing rhinos)
3 - they didn't think it was a good model and scrapped it - while this is expensive, it has happened before
Your plausible (to my mind, however warped or stunted it may be) explanations please me. Of course, it COULD be because they wanted to make another sprue and add that to the existent bitz? Frankly, more bitz is a good thing. yes, yes...

Gregory is pleased by this! *evil, croaky-wheezy laugh*

Adramalech
27-04-2010, 23:36
It occurred to me that it's probably a marketing decision. They have a lot of Daemon Prince models in metal still in stock and on shelves. Releasing a new plastic kit will mean sales of those kits (in fantasy and 40K) will go way down, possibly to zero, so they want to clear old stock before they produce a new kit. This may also be why we still have the old metal chaos dreadnought.

A plastic chaos dreadnought would kick ass. I wouldn't have to use super-glue.

Super Glue is the wargame hobbying spawn of satan. D:<