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TheSanityAssassin
26-04-2010, 05:05
Ok, so I started to type my list, and my computer just ate it, so I'm going to leave this thread up for people to start with while I re-do it in notepad.

Basically, I'm just wondering based on the current rumour set, what the community is thinking will be the power rankings of the different forces.

I'm leaving Tomb Kings out at the moment due to their book being on the way.

So as I said, I lost all my reasons, which I am re-doing, but here was my list just to get discussion started.

1. Skaven
2. Dark Elves
3. Lizardmen
4. Daemons
5. Empire
6. Bretonnians
7. Beastmen
8. Warriors of Chaos
9. Orcs and Gobbos
10. Vampire Counts
11. Dwarfs
12. High Elves
13. Wood Elves
14. Ogres


Stick Tomb Kings somewhere in there for when their new book comes out.

The_Bureaucrat
26-04-2010, 05:44
A) what rumors assumptions are you making?
B) Don't you think the rumors are a little incomplete for rankings?
C) How do the wood elves lose out ?

ftayl5
26-04-2010, 05:58
I disagree completely, with teh rumours I heard, ogres will be climbing the rankings even without a new book. A stomp/crush extra attack, that means bulls can have 5 attacks, 3 bulls=127 pts= 15 attacks!!!

And the 'monsters only need 3 models for a rank' rule, that could be handy, not that I take big units of ogres but still.

as for skaven being No.1, thats possible, with the horde rule and stuff.

I don't see how you imagined that Vc, HE and WE are in the bottom 5, and how Lizardmen are better than DoC or how empire are in teh top.

I'd say:

Candidates for the high rankings include: DoC, WoC, DE, Skaven, VC
Ogres, Lizards, Empire, Brettonia, HE, WE, O&G Dwarfs in the middle
Beastmen and TK are the bottom ones

And you've said 'stick tomb kings in somewhere in there for when their new book comes out' but ogres are getting a book first and you've given them a ranking, the bottom ranking

Ozorik
26-04-2010, 06:05
Whats the point in this thread? Nothing is known for certain so even attempting this is a waste of time.

Rankings are of little use anyway.

Kalandros
26-04-2010, 06:20
There will be oh so many useless prophetic threads announcing order of things and whatnot until the book is in people's hands. Its going to be an annoying 2.5 months to endure all the nonsense in Tactics and General on top of trying to read the rumor threads filled with wishlisting and " I think that... "

Mercules
26-04-2010, 15:18
Pffft... AFTER the book is in people's hands and before they have really had a chance to think about or try the changes there will be posting of army ranks and they will be nothing more than pure conjecture.

I am hoping Ogres will be jumping up in the ranks by virtue of 8th edition changes. There are a lot of rumors pointing to changes that will be helping an army made up of mostly 40x40mm "ogre sized" models and super cheap models(Gnoblars) that can be used as a Horde. ;)

Tower_Of_The_Stars
26-04-2010, 15:30
This thread is nonsense.

Alltaken
26-04-2010, 15:56
1. Skaven
deffinetly pimped

2. Dark Elves
no Hcav so nothing uber here, one save rule does take away the nasty unkillable lord, and ASF, well just the same thing.

3. Lizardmen
Yeah, step up and pimping saurus units won't make them all the more nasty.
Think of a huge TG unit with a bunkered slann. If armor is supposed to have les modifiers... unkillabe times 10. Mother of all no brainers.

4. Daemons
magic town down is nice, very nice.

5. Empire
except lack of marching they get a boost

6. Bretonnians
hello non marching brets! You're going down

7. Beastmen
empowered minos *2 better SCR, just what they needed (?). Oh yeah, you just might start casting now, more than in 7th. I have a feelling this guys go up

8. Warriors of Chaos
same thing as sauri. but warriors of doom. I guess MoK extra hand weapon might just work if S4 doesn't modify armor. 4 attacks at S4 with AS of 3or 4+ hell yeah I'd try that, step up will rock their boat!

9. Orcs and Gobbos
supposed to be improved by hoard rules

10. Vampire Counts
magic towned down, less character power, lets see how this goes. Hoped they aren't nerfed to hell

11. Dwarfs
That d6 on charge will probably end up in more charge distance normally, more manuvrable = less flanking issues, huge AS boost, more infantry advantage. Step up is going to show us how hard those 2 handed weapons come down on us

12. High Elves
sorry boys but step us is gonna be your doom, lets see how you make it so that no one hits back. Still ASF, cav moves less. Spearmen might be back, but they don't give kills into the CR. They'll hurt. Here's hoping that this one gets a new army book for being in the basic box

13. Wood Elves
same thing as HE, lets see how skirmishing army can make up against step up, besides the obvious boosts on magic, shooting and the fact that others move less mean we have more movement control

14. Ogres
All I'm reading is they'll hit harder, be more though. And HIT HARDER, way harder. Oh, they'll start knowing the joys of SCR for the first time besides.

Magic Karl
26-04-2010, 16:20
I agree with alltaken, and this thread is obviously just a bit of fun before the books come out, nothing solid...

I think daemons will definately by lower along with Vamps due to the rumours on magic being more about unpredictability. The charge rules will mean slower races like the dwarves could lose a game literally due to one or a series of bad rolls, as they have no longer misjudged the distance of the charge, but rolled lower. I think this new fantasy seems to be based much more on luck than skill from the rumours we have seen...

CaliforniaGamer
26-04-2010, 16:29
this thread has put the Warseer rumour mill into the "Jumped the Shark" category.

Lordsaradain
26-04-2010, 16:40
If the "one save to ruin them all" rumour is true, does that mean you cant take a ward save and regeneration? Cause then I imagine DoC will get PRETTY nerfed... no more unkillable plaguebearers. And jugger cav and khorne herald will be much easier to kill without AS + WS. In addition to their magic being nerfed that is. Maybe they'll add a new restriction to Ld modifiers to counter the last overpowered DoC build, Slaanesh Ld-bomb! :P

...and a -1 modifier for every multiple shot wepaons for every extra shot to nerf flamers!

Even if these particular speculations turn out to be untrue, I imagine (and hope) DoC will be seen as less overpowered with the release of the 8th edition.

Grymlok
26-04-2010, 17:06
Ok, here goes:

They'll all be equal, perfectly balanced and no one army will be better than the other...

Grimstonefire
26-04-2010, 17:29
I think the top 5 will work out like this (no particular order)

Warriors of Chaos - elite troops in chaos armour are going to be awesome in 8th (especially khorne warriors with 2nd hand weapon)

Skaven - horde units, wacky war machines and powerful magic, also the fact that armour modifiers are going to be more important now and half the Skaven magic weapons are armour piercing it seems

High Elves - Striking in initiative order is a huge advantage for them now because of ASF, even with great weapons striking last there will be something to compensate. Citizen levy+horde for the win, archers in 2 ranks. Powerful sorcerers.

Daemons of Chaos - Their rediculously cheap heroes and powerful special units will still be hard. I don't think they will still be top though.

Dark Elves - repeater X bows in 2 ranks, decent character builds and the dreaded hydra. I don't see them dropping out of the top 5.

Dwarfs and Empire would follow up next. Dwarfs are going to play considerably better in 8th imo, movement bonuses and fighting in 2 ranks with army wide heavy armour for the most part = tough to beat. Depends on the scenario though.

Empire I think will be much the same power level, if not slightly better, as they have cheap troops great for holding objectives, but with good leadership and many tactical options.

Followed by Ogres and Lizardmen. Ogres I think are going to be 'ard once their list is redone, and with the trample attack I think they will be back higher up. Saurus are going to be tougher in 8th ed in big blocks imo.

Everyone else in no particular order

VC will slide right down the list I think because of the changes to magic and character% (many of the individual rumours would not help them, together they will be a fairly big nerf).

Desert Rain
26-04-2010, 17:30
I still believe that Daemons and Dark Elves will be at the top. The Vamps will move down and Skaven, and to a lesser extent Lizardmen, will move up there instead. High Elves and Wood Elves are going down big time.

Dantès
26-04-2010, 20:25
Ok, here goes:

They'll all be equal, perfectly balanced and no one army will be better than the other...

Commie b*stard!!!


:p

That's what I wish for!

Alltaken
26-04-2010, 20:36
Dark Elves - repeater X bows in 2 ranks, decent character builds and the dreaded hydra. I don't see them dropping out of the top 5.

All elves will suffer from Step UP, this new rule is gut punch to all glass canons. Hag Greath ASF Black Guard for instance. All elves will dread this, seriuosly. However, dwarfs, sauri and woc, and probably some orcs love this new thing. All high AS and T4. The rest will feel the hard side of this rule, also combats will last less.

DE's shade's will be not as useful, unless step up doesn't work on flanks an rear charge.

Oh if the Terror +2 combat resolution, and wizards picking spells are true this is what I see:

Slann: Focused Rumination - the Harrowing scrutiny (+1 dice at cast and terror) and plaque of Tepok for 5 chosen spells. BSB + Warbanner (total toad SCR = 4, 1 on BSB, 1 on warbanner, 2 on terror)
TG Bunker 31: can't recall the total SCR value but it's 1 for banner and 3 for normal file CR. There was something more for the 30 or more guys.
So where speaking of a total static SCR of 8, plus a unit that has 10 attacks at S4 WS4 AS2+ or S5 WS4 AS3+, which on average goes for 3 or 4 wounds more. the return of :cheese:men hu?
I'd add huanchis banner for a 4+2d6 charge distance. No way I'm letting this baby sit back instead of mincing through everything there is.

Dantès
26-04-2010, 20:47
How much does this cost? 400 Skaven slaves? I'll take the Slaves :p

Heimagoblin
26-04-2010, 21:04
Really?.....

Alltaken
26-04-2010, 21:22
How much does this cost? 400 Skaven slaves? I'll take the Slaves :p

totally true, though 1 point here, get a slann with 2 or 3 power stones (i've only spent 15 points on that lovely tepok thing I can buy a bucket load of powerstones), throw 4 dice from your pool, 2 from power stone (power stones could excede maximun dice limit, right?) and +1 from rumination. Cast level 6 spell from fire lore against that what can you guess will happen?

Besides being locked there for all of eternity the slann can still cast his spells against other units. and a 400 sized unit feels easy to be flank charged by nearly anythig. I would love to see that thing manouver.
I put my money in this unit, to much passive CR without being huge and an excellent potential active CR.

TheSanityAssassin
26-04-2010, 22:17
Yeah, I'm really wondering how the Elf lists are going to compete if the rumours we're hearing work out....Dark Elves will do it through shooting, cheaper warriors and hydras...

However, the new rule sets seem to work best for EITHER heavily armoured troops, OR troops with lots of numbers.....Elves have neither. Wood Elves don't even have combat blocks....

Alltaken
26-04-2010, 22:48
my personal list:
1. Skaven
2. Daemons (still don't know bout this guys. But for safety matters lets call it number 2)
3. Warriors of Chaos
4. Lizardmen
5. Dwarfs
6. Dark Elves
7. Ogres
8. Empire
9. Orcs and Gobbos
10. Beastmen
11. Vampire Counts
12. High Elves
13. Wood Elves
14. Bretonnians

Cognitave
26-04-2010, 23:59
VC are still going to be strong, just at higher point games. Zombies will benefit greatly from the horde rules and fear now acts as a pseudo banner for them. Also, the 2d6 powerdice generation makes necromancers much more plausible, meaning you can fit a few 2 spell necros in with your vampire lord and be just below the point limit.

I think HE, at this point, are going to need a lot of errata to keep a lot of their old viability (ASF + GWs, Specials, Stepping Up and Strength in Depth), so I wouldn't write out VC getting some bonus to the undead rule or something extra in that manner. :D

Dantès
27-04-2010, 02:31
totally true, though 1 point here, get a slann with 2 or 3 power stones (i've only spent 15 points on that lovely tepok thing I can buy a bucket load of powerstones), throw 4 dice from your pool, 2 from power stone (power stones could excede maximun dice limit, right?) and +1 from rumination. Cast level 6 spell from fire lore against that what can you guess will happen?

Besides being locked there for all of eternity the slann can still cast his spells against other units. and a 400 sized unit feels easy to be flank charged by nearly anythig. I would love to see that thing manouver.
I put my money in this unit, to much passive CR without being huge and an excellent potential active CR.

Who said I was taking a 400 model unit? That's craziness. More like 20x 20 man units! :p


VC are still going to be strong, just at higher point games. Zombies will benefit greatly from the horde rules and fear now acts as a pseudo banner for them. Also, the 2d6 powerdice generation makes necromancers much more plausible, meaning you can fit a few 2 spell necros in with your vampire lord and be just below the point limit.

I think HE, at this point, are going to need a lot of errata to keep a lot of their old viability (ASF + GWs, Specials, Stepping Up and Strength in Depth), so I wouldn't write out VC getting some bonus to the undead rule or something extra in that manner. :D


I think most armies will need errata to bring them back in line with the new edition. Whether they will actually errata those books or not remains to be seen.

Alltaken
27-04-2010, 02:41
Who said I was taking a 400 model unit? That's craziness. More like 20x 20 man units! :p
Even better! one at a time, there's enough rounds to take 4 of those nice units plus some fire loving to take most of that out. That sings massive runaway in my ears :D

Oh BTW the unit goes for around 700 pts, nearly full special requierment :S god I'll have to bring stegs and a huge amount of sauri now. I so desperately need more minis

Witchblade
27-04-2010, 03:34
Armies are certainly going to be very different from now. I predict Skaven, Empire and WoC, for example, will really become more balanced overall than they are now and be more like the armies are in the fluff.

Tier-wise, it's definitely too early to tell, but I strongly suspect WE and VC to drop a category... or 3.

Zazzer
27-04-2010, 05:21
6. Bretonnians
hello non marching brets! You're going down

Actually, I was of the opinion that Bretonnians will still get to march:

PUREBREED WARHORSE: Bretonnian Warhorses do not suffer any movement penalties for being barded.

In that case Bretonnian cavalry will actually get a major boost in power over other armies heavy cavalry :evilgrin:

ChaosVC
27-04-2010, 06:02
Which race will have more AP1 swords then?

Lordsaradain
27-04-2010, 06:40
Actually, I was of the opinion that Bretonnians will still get to march:

PUREBREED WARHORSE: Bretonnian Warhorses do not suffer any movement penalties for being barded.

In that case Bretonnian cavalry will actually get a major boost in power over other armies heavy cavalry :evilgrin:

How do we know the rule new rule refers particularily to barding? Then cold one knights, saurus cavalry, bloodcrushers etc would also be unaffected by the new rule. :P

Bretonnian cavalry already has a big advantage: LANCE FORMATION.

soots
27-04-2010, 06:55
I think the rumored rules for 8th edition will benefit elites more than hordes.

Anyone with more than 1 attack is going to hurt. +3 extra static points availble is not going to offset another rank of 10+ attacks.

Dark14
27-04-2010, 07:00
anyone with great weapons is now insane so

WOC are number one if they have half a mind 6x3 gw khorne with tzeentch magic=good night

and lance formation is not that good due to 1 attack cav being outdated sadly:(

Sygerrik
27-04-2010, 14:31
I doubt Skaven will be at the top. The ability of heavy infantry to fight in two ranks really negates a lot of the Skaven weight of numbers advantage, and the toning down of magic hurts a magic-heavy army.

Still think this thread is nonsense and a waste of time. We don't know any of the new rules. We have a decent idea about maybe a third of them.

Ozorik
27-04-2010, 17:32
Still think this thread is nonsense and a waste of time. We don't know any of the new rules. We have a decent idea about maybe a third of them.

Its also clear that many of the people who have posted in this thread haven't been keeping up with the more recent rumours.

Bedsheets
27-04-2010, 17:41
I don't expect the current power curve to change all that much. This new edition is not going to be putting daemons or DE on the bottom teir. It will NOT happen.

TheSanityAssassin
27-04-2010, 18:32
Did I miss something about all troops fighting in two ranks? I thought that the Step-Up rule was based around having your troops die first, which allows other to fight...

N810
27-04-2010, 18:33
yea all the rumors are not in agreement yet. :(