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Trains_Get_Robbed
26-04-2010, 23:37
I've been looking to get into 40K for a while now (fantasy player) and have noticed that people use "random" codexes that don't pertain to their army. Is this normal? For example, people with Space Marines will use codexes such as B.A (at my local store paticularly although I have seen posts on here) or S.W in spite of say their Ultra-Marined themed army, or even the audascity to say that their units count as said army as they are not painted and could represent anything! Is this theme prevalent in 40k? :wtf:

*Side question* I also have a question to any knowledgble guard players out there in respect to F.W Death Krieg. I' am dead set on getting that as my army. However (although just slightly hypocritical :angel: :rolleyes: ) what codex would I use and how would I use it to field this army? Is there special rules or a different codex as in a PDF, such as DoW or Chaos Dwarfs?

Thanx for the help! . . . GO WINGS!

enigma-96
26-04-2010, 23:53
*Side question* I also have a question to any knowledgble guard players out there in respect to F.W Death Krieg. I' am dead set on getting that as my army. However (although just slightly hypocritical :angel: :rolleyes: ) what codex would I use and how would I use it to field this army? Is there special rules or a different codex as in a PDF, such as DoW or Chaos Dwarfs?

Thanx for the help! . . . GO WINGS!

The Death Korp have their own rules in Imperial Armour (The Siege of Vraks specifically) though the normal guard dex does a good job of it as well. Also this is a little unrelated but if you want some cheap death korp fill ins (To save a bit on the extreme cost) check this out. http://wargamesfactory.com/AnnouncementRetrieve.aspx?ID=32119

As to your main point, yes it is common, but the reasons for it are varied, some want to play a new army without investing in the same models but with different colours, others want a more powerful army, some do it purely for fluff reasons, and others still do it for the lolz. Honestly it comes down to the fact that people pay ALOT of money for their models so why should they be constrained to play by one set of (poorly I might add) written rules especially if they are still WYSIWIG at the end of the day.

Also Boo Wings, GO CANUCKS!

The_carpenter
27-04-2010, 00:25
As has been mentioned above it's either about wanting the most powerful army or simply I like the Blood Angel's play style but hate their paint scheme but I love the Imperial Fist's paint scheme so I'll use BA rules with a Imperial Fist paint job for instance.

Like with my Eldar I love the Iyanden paint scheme but don't have the funds or the inclination to field a Iyanden themed list so I field a standard mech/ hybrid list instead but keeping the Iyanden paint scheme.

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-04-2010, 00:38
Enigma-96, would I need all the Siege of Vraks volumes or just one ie; the first one. Thanks for the site, I will look into the costs as they do seem pretty steep :rolleyes:. SO it would be acceptable to most people if I used Kriegs soldiers with the IG's book?

Roberto did make a huge stop yeterday, L.A had ya on the ropes ;). Thanks.

The_carpenter
27-04-2010, 00:40
Enigma-96, would I need all the Siege of Vraks volumes or just one ie; the first one. Thanks for the site, I will look into the costs as they do seem pretty steep :rolleyes:. SO it would be acceptable to most people if I used Kriegs soldiers with the IG's book?

Roberto did make a huge stop yeterday, L.A had ya on the ropes ;). Thanks.

To be fair I doubt most would notice the difference... a horde of guardsmen is err... a horde of guardsmen!

e2055261
27-04-2010, 00:40
I think it's mostly impulse and wanting the new thing. There are genuine BA and SW players that were waiting on their new codexes but I think for most people it's about being part of the new thing. There is a feeling that each dex will be better/easier to win with than the last - sometimes true...

The_carpenter
27-04-2010, 00:44
I think it's mostly impulse and wanting the new thing. There are genuine BA and SW players that were waiting on their new codexes but I think for most people it's about being part of the new thing. There is a feeling that each dex will be better/easier to win with than the last - sometimes true...

Pretty much always true.... at least for the first few games, then people adapt to the new tricks ;)

carlisimo
27-04-2010, 00:55
I think the Eldar situation is a little different… back in 2nd edition each craftworld only had one or two sentences on which to base a theme. It was easier to ignore (and that’s how I ended up with an Iyanden army with zero wraithguard). Then in 3rd edition that horrible codex supplement came out telling craftworld players exactly how to structure their armies, as if the entire craftworld of Iyanden couldn’t put together a tiny strike force. Nowadays we’re back to rules that a allow a lot of freedom, but a lot of players still think in terms of rigid themes.

With marines the differences between chapters are subtle; most of your army isn’t noticeably affected by switching back and forth between books. So it’s easy to do, and why not? imo, the most reasonable way of doing it is by declaring your homegrown chapter a successor chapter of whoever’s codex you want to use. If your figures have iconography from a different founding chapter… that’s just kind of wrong! (It’s not THAT wrong though, unless you respect the fluff.)

To our fellow fantasy players, look at this way: Space Marines are basically one single army. They have numerous codices because they sell in huge numbers and they’ve each had so much written about them that combining codices would mean losing a lot of history. They’re only different from each other by degrees, and they’re on the same side, so it’s not half as drastic as playing High Elves as Dark Elves.

Charistoph
27-04-2010, 01:04
In some cases, a different codex offers a different aspect of a chapter. For example, the first company of a Space Marine is comprised of veterans, in order to do play that on the table, one needs to use the Dark Angels for Terminator-clad Vets, or Space Wolves for Power or Terminator Vets. For 8th Company, which is usually filled with Assault Marines, one is pretty much required to use the Blood Angels codex.

But, for the most part, it's because of the Oh Shiny syndrome combined with cheap way of starting a new army.

enigma-96
27-04-2010, 03:17
Enigma-96, would I need all the Siege of Vraks volumes or just one ie; the first one. Thanks for the site, I will look into the costs as they do seem pretty steep :rolleyes:. SO it would be acceptable to most people if I used Kriegs soldiers with the IG's book?

Roberto did make a huge stop yeterday, L.A had ya on the ropes ;). Thanks.

I would say you need part 1 and 2 as 1 has the army list and 2 fills in some of the units from said list (Mole Mortar team comes to mind) Part 3 does have an army list for Krieg but it's an armored battlegroup so is very VERY tank centric. As to which list to use, I would use Krieg personally as it does give you some cool and unique units while still maintaining the guard feel. Also if you refrain from using any superheavies the list is actually pretty balanced and looks to be a barrel of fun.

As for the models I linked you too, here's a video showcasing them being built http://www.youtube.com/user/beastsofwar?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/3/5PMW4e72P38
I personally have ordered the 7x deal just because it's so good and the models do look pretty good. I've always been of the opinion that forgeworld is reasonably priced if you're just adding a little this and that to your army but the second you start to buy more than 2-3 things the price shoots up into new army levels.

Also totally agree with carlisimo's statement about looking at marines as one codex, hell their are a ton of 40k players who would love nothing better than to see one uber marine book and be done with it.

Sigis
27-04-2010, 04:15
In some cases, a different codex offers a different aspect of a chapter. For example, the first company of a Space Marine is comprised of veterans, in order to do play that on the table, one needs to use the Dark Angels for Terminator-clad Vets, or Space Wolves for Power or Terminator Vets. For 8th Company, which is usually filled with Assault Marines, one is pretty much required to use the Blood Angels codex.

But, for the most part, it's because of the Oh Shiny syndrome combined with cheap way of starting a new army.

One of my armies is used that way. Each compy follows a differing fighting style inline with the captain's personal style. Ive used the Blood Angels for an assault oriented force and SW Wolfwing for terminator horde.

MetalGecko23
27-04-2010, 06:27
Also Boo Wings, GO CANUCKS!
:eek::eek::eek::eek::mad:
You sir are a fizzle....:p

Using different codexs offers conversion ideas outside what the armies normal codex offers.
You also may like one armies colors and fluff but not their codex so use one that better suits you style.
Jumping across codexs simply for power is annoying unless your a DA player then I feel its OK to jump. Atleast temporarily.

the_picto
27-04-2010, 11:20
I switch marine book depending on what units I want to use at the time. The DA book comes out when I feel like running Sammael and some scouting bikes. The ultramarine codex lets me field sternguard and play about with the various special characters. I'm currently thinking of getting the wolf book so I can take 4 chaplains (wolf priests have some version of litanies of hate right?) leading a close combat type army. Pretty much every army in 40k interest me to some extent, but with marines I don't have to drop a few hundred pounds on new models just to use a different codex.

jsullivanlaw
29-04-2010, 21:35
Some people are poor. They can't afford to get new models to use with the shiny new codex. So they use "counts as".

Some people are lazy. They can't be bothered to repaint their minatures every time a shiny new codex comes out. So they use "counts as".

Some people are lame. They don't like losing so will use their models with the most efficient rules as possible. So they use "counts as".

Some people want to be special. They don't want to use the same rules as everyone else for their army. So they use "counts as".

brotherhostower
29-04-2010, 21:58
heh, so when I started looking at codecies (back in 3rd ed) about what army to play, I picked marines, and stared long and hard at the 2 codecies I had on hand, the Blood Angel Codex, and the Dark Angel Codex. Thinking long and hard, I decided, I like terminators, Deathwing for me...

Flash to a few weeks forward and I've gotten my hands on some models... I pull out the codex and begin to paint... I'm all done painting and... I realize I'd pulled out the BLOOD ANGEL codex when looking to make my own paint scheme *facepalm*. I had always planned on doing my own successor chapter... and my DA successor chapter is decked out in... black and red but no matter what codex flavor of the month comes out, they are always, always Dark Angels... even when all other space marines have better stormshields *grumble, mutter*. Let me tell you, after the ******* dozens of coats of red it takes to make red look red over black base paint, those models arent' going to be any other color lol.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
29-04-2010, 22:01
Hell, if you go through the trouble to actually paint your whole army, I couldn't care less which marine codex you use. The color of your models is not going to change the outcome of the game one bit.

Thud
29-04-2010, 22:05
Some people are poor. They can't afford to get new models to use with the shiny new codex. So they use "counts as".

Some people are lazy. They can't be bothered to repaint their minatures every time a shiny new codex comes out. So they use "counts as".

Some people are lame. They don't like losing so will use their models with the most efficient rules as possible. So they use "counts as".

Some people want to be special. They don't want to use the same rules as everyone else for their army. So they use "counts as".

And some people are economically sensible.

If I have spent £300 on Space Marine models and painted them green, I'm sure as hell not spending another £300 on the same models and paint them red just to try something different.

FabricatorGeneralMike
29-04-2010, 22:22
And some people are economically sensible.

If I have spent £300 on Space Marine models and painted them green, I'm sure as hell not spending another £300 on the same models and paint them red just to try something different.

That about sums it up =o] , but if you are using you ' grey legion of deff ' AKA primered marines and just switching when the new dex comes out, you just might be invoking *************. =o]

Go canucks, canucks in 6, thats my guess.

Bestaltan
29-04-2010, 22:30
Heh. My gaming club has already put up a good-spirited (but nonetheless all-too-serious) ban on all non-red BA armies. The main reason is because we have some very veteran BA players who really want to feel special for as long as possible (since they finally have themselves a codex).

Course, these same BA players are already laughing at the possibility of what happens when they run up against each other in a megabattle. Why? Go look at Astrorath's "Shadow of the Primarch" rule. I've already declared that my army will stay WELL away from that scrap, thank you.

Mannimarco
29-04-2010, 22:43
If you like the look of the DKOK and really would like to play as them then use their rules, theres some key differences between the DKOK and codex imperial guard that shapes them as a different army with their own style.

Im not telling all you marine players to repaint your entire armies or go buy new ones so dont go calling me on that (as some have done in the past)

what I dont understand is the idea of forgeworld guard armies using codex guard, I play vraksian renegades and guess which book I use to represent them? vraks 3

I see it here on the board all the time "Im going to make a traitor guard army using the FW models" see I read that and get excited thinking its going to be a break from the usual lists then i read the second paragraph which usually says somthing like "so what im going to do is make a mech vet list with valkyries and vultures and psyker squads" why? your playing renegade guard, you already have a list, try using it

similar thing here, I like the DKOK and some are saying use codex guard. Why? the DKOK have their own lists, to me it would be like "I like the chaos space marines, they have some nice models and good fluff so heres what im going to do: I'll take Vulkan and as many storm shield terminators as I can afford"

Nezalhualixtlan
29-04-2010, 23:00
I think there are a lot of degrees of players too, different people get into the game for different reasons and continue in it for different reasons.

To some fluff is king and many of them from my experience want fluffy games and lists and colors to match no matter what.

Some people really like being creative with modeling and don't want to be stuck with a rigid model set because they choose a particular army and like the freedom of changing things up.

Still other people play because they just like the game, the tactics, the strategy, and the competition. Often people like that don't care if you play the game with completely unmatched models, like tau with a legal necron list, so long as you make the effort to make sure the models are about the right size for los and cover and the bases are the right size and the list is legal from a single current codex.

So the game is different things to different people, and even gw makes note in the codexes to feel free to be creative with sucessor chapters and characters by different names and all.

Tournaments will come with their own rules you have to follow if you want to participate, but for friendly games at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is that you and your opponent have a fun and enjoyable experience. Usually so long as you are both good sports about it, it's not going to matter. But if you won't have that playing an ultramarine colored blood angels list, that's your choice not to play someone doing it, if you don't care then run with and have fun.

Drasanil
30-04-2010, 04:49
If I were playing at GW store and some one pulled a codex switch on me and their army was one of the original chapters (or Black Templars) I'd throw WYSIWYG in their face, if I see Ultramarines I'm playing against Ultramarines not blue Blood Angels, just so you can milk out some megre tactical advantage or try to get the best out of a new codex in order to win a few games.

If they go through the trouble of making their own chapter with it's own paint scheme/fluff/backstory/whatever then I don't mind. But then again it's mostly because I'm not a big fan of the space mahreens' over saturation and I think the use of them should be discouraged in favour of other non-Timmy armies.

Absolutionis
30-04-2010, 05:04
...if I see Ultramarines I'm playing against Ultramarines not blue Blood Angels... If they go through the trouble of making their own chapter with it's own paint scheme/fluff/backstory/whatever then I don't mind...I applaud your use of the term "Timmy", but why don't you like my Omega Bluebloods Chapter of Space Marines? They're a Blood Angels successor chapter that just so happen to be painted in Ultramarines colors. I could play you with my Blood Templars if you want.

Egaeus
30-04-2010, 05:28
If I were playing at GW store and some one pulled a codex switch on me and their army was one of the original chapters (or Black Templars) I'd throw WYSIWYG in their face, if I see Ultramarines I'm playing against Ultramarines not blue Blood Angels, just so you can milk out some megre tactical advantage or try to get the best out of a new codex in order to win a few games.

If they go through the trouble of making their own chapter with it's own paint scheme/fluff/backstory/whatever then I don't mind. But then again it's mostly because I'm not a big fan of the space mahreens' over saturation and I think the use of them should be discouraged in favour of other non-Timmy armies.

The truly sad thing to me was that if GW was actually good at writing rules then we wouldn't really have the "new and shiny bandwagon syndrome" at all. But then again they are in business to make money and one of the best ways to get people to buy stuff is with the good old-fashioned "new and improved" label (even if it isn't an actual label but a perception that the new rules are somehow better than other Marine rules).

I've seen the sentiment of your second paragraph expressed before and I find it somewhat perplexing. I do understand the principle but find it odd that all one has to do is use a different base colour or even a slightly different shade in order to somehow have a "different" army (for example I would assure you that not all "blue" armies are Ultramarines). Coupled with the idea that if a new player picks up Codex Space Marines they are bombarded with pictures of Ultarmarines and may believe that is the colour they are "supposed" to be. As others have said in this thread the models are a fairly significant investment so having to repurchase an extremely similar army just to paint them a different colour does seem rather excessive. Although it would be good for GW's bottom line. ;)

Although I am the type of person who tries to come with unique colour schemes specifically so that I'm not locked into the perception that there is a specific Codex that I should be using for my toy soldiers.

Drasanil
30-04-2010, 06:46
I applaud your use of the term "Timmy",

Thank you:D


but why don't you like my Omega Bluebloods Chapter of Space Marines? They're a Blood Angels successor chapter that just so happen to be painted in Ultramarines colors.

Blasphemy, that's why. According to the Gospel of Ward all Space Marines (including chaos ones) secretly strive to be Ultramrines in general, and Calgar in particular, therefor your so called "Omega Bluebloods" must be purged for failling to honor The Big Blue properly by using the wrong codex:shifty:


I could play you with my Blood Templars if you want.

Only if I can use my C'tan worshipping Orkdar:p


The truly sad thing to me was that if GW was actually good at writing rules then we wouldn't really have the "new and shiny bandwagon syndrome" at all.

Agreed, and while I think GW do not try to make armies suck out of hand, I do believe they try to make the newer codexes easier to use and therefor a little more powerful than the previous ones.


But then again they are in business to make money and one of the best ways to get people to buy stuff is with the good old-fashioned "new and improved" label (even if it isn't an actual label but a perception that the new rules are somehow better than other Marine rules).

Honestly I'm more disappointed with the players in that sense. If you took the time to build a Dark Angel army, use the Dark Angel rules, don't just go well uh they count as Blood Angels because it suits my theme "better" and expect people to actually buy that load of steaming horse doo-doo.


I've seen the sentiment of your second paragraph expressed before and I find it somewhat perplexing. I do understand the principle but find it odd that all one has to do is use a different base colour or even a slightly different shade in order to somehow have a "different" army (for example I would assure you that not all "blue" armies are Ultramarines).

Ok first off I'll be totally honest and say it's namely because it's harder/impossible to "prove" that some one with a custom colour scheme is using the "wrong" codex. Secondly as far as it goes most people who take the time to make their own "unique" chapter generally put more effort in the hobbying side of the game as opposed to the TT pwnage side, so it doesn't bother me as much if they're a little more flexible in their codex use.


Coupled with the idea that if a new player picks up Codex Space Marines they are bombarded with pictures of Ultarmarines and may believe that is the colour they are "supposed" to be. As others have said in this thread the models are a fairly significant investment so having to repurchase an extremely similar army just to paint them a different colour does seem rather excessive. Although it would be good for GW's bottom line. ;)

If I spent hundreds of dollars on say an Ork army and painted them green as the codex suggests, and suddenly the new Eldar codex comes out and it is totally awesome and makes it so much easier to win, why shouldn't I be able to claim that my "orks" are really just green manly eldar and use the new eldar rules?


Although I am the type of person who tries to come with unique colour schemes specifically so that I'm not locked into the perception that there is a specific Codex that I should be using for my toy soldiers.

I appreciate the feeling, I generaly prefer to add more of a personal touch (pretty much any champion/hero/hq I have is modded) to my armies and therefor I don't use the suggested codex examples unless I'm really keen on a specific theme. But then again I'm not the sort of person who would say build a Knights of Vaul army consisting of wraithbone constructs from the War in Heaven using the necrons rules then suddenly switch over to the Space Wolf 'dex simply because the new rules make things easier or are more "balanced".

Logarithm Udgaur
30-04-2010, 07:50
Personally, I think that you should play with the codex you have. Why have 5+ Marine codexes if you are just going to use the newest one anyway?

If someone came to me with an Ulramarines army (insignia and all) and wanted to use the BA codex, they would have to find another game. Conversely, if they had painted their marines blue and given them unique chapter markings/modeling, then it is game on.

e2055261
30-04-2010, 08:20
Yep, you wanna play BA then they ought to look like them;)

Zweischneid
30-04-2010, 12:48
Personally, I think that you should play with the codex you have. Why have 5+ Marine codexes if you are just going to use the newest one anyway?


Well, to some extend I think the blame lies partly on GW.

For the price of 10 Grey Hunters with basic bolters and no upgrades I couldn't even quite afford me 8 Tactical Marines with basic bolters and no upgrades. And that is not even counting cheaper upgrades (free Meltagun anyone?) and the greater flexibility in giving them special toys.

Thus, even if I ignore all the Space Wolf special choices, greater equipment variety, etc..., hell, even consciously ignore SW special rules like Acute Senses or Counter Attack in actual play, a "Codex Marine Chapter" done with the SW Codex will have easily 10% to 20% more marine boots on the table compared with the exact same chapter done with the SM Codex.

Why wouldn't anyone want to do that?

DDogwood
30-04-2010, 13:08
If I spent hundreds of dollars on say an Ork army and painted them green as the codex suggests, and suddenly the new Eldar codex comes out and it is totally awesome and makes it so much easier to win, why shouldn't I be able to claim that my "orks" are really just green manly eldar and use the new eldar rules?

Why, sir, that's preposterous! Next thing you know, you'll be fielding an Imperial Guard army made entirely out of non-GW minis!

wilsongrahams
30-04-2010, 13:20
Personally, I don't think there should be too much fuss as long as they are hte same species and have the same weapons - I've seen so many different versions of Blood Angel red that they could all be different chapters.

I do sympathise too with certain issues. I'm a BA player, and the week before I got the codex I was about to buy a Venerable Dread, and Ironclad and a Landspeeder Storm, none of which can be used in my BA army if I had bought them. I ended up buying a new pushchair instead, but had I bought those items I'd have felt the need to use them at some point and then have to use the SM codex at some point. There are other differences between codices that could invalidate other people's armies and that is one reason I can understand why somebody would use a different codex.

It's more acceptable when you have created your own chapter or used a second founding chapter for space marines - for guard, apart from their uniform I'd use them as generic guard, and same with Eldar - there are no unique units.

Where things get tricky is when you get to special characters and their use in a different army however aprt from colour, what is the difference?

MarshalFaust
30-04-2010, 14:27
I have bought and painted upwards of 5000 points of imperial fists because i really like the paint scheme. if i feel like playing a first company list i use SW and load up on terminators (yes i have a specially converted model to represent logan) if i feel like playing an assault list ill use the blood angels book and if i feel like using my good ol tac squads and ironclads i will use the SM book i really don't understand the controversy about the paint scheme matching the codex.

for me as long as the models a clear what they are or my opponent tells me that these blue marines here are actually blood angel marines then i have no problem. does it really cause some of you that much grief if a guy uses his salamander painted army with space wolf rules? if it does you really should reconsider why you are playing this game.

i guess im just lucky that my gaming group is really flexible and laid back about this issue. i have only ever had one guy say to me that i shouldn't be using the SW codex for my first company list because they were not painted as space wolves. so i told him that he shouldn't be using codex space marines for his unpainted grey ultramarines because ultramarines paint their armor blue.

Meriwether
30-04-2010, 14:36
Secondly as far as it goes most people who take the time to make their own "unique" chapter generally put more effort in the hobbying side of the game as opposed to the TT pwnage side, so it doesn't bother me as much if they're a little more flexible in their codex use.

I always find it odd when anyone -- ANYONE -- feels that they are somehow entitled to judge how other people spend their hobby time and money.

A friend of mine has a beautiful, custom-converted and painted space marine army. It doesn't look like any given chapter in particular, and he switches from book to book based on what strikes his fancy (including chaos, with the addition of demons). Is he entitled to do this because he spent more time on the hobby, while the kid who painted his blue is not entitled to, because he has not?

What if you learn that this friend purchased this army, and has never spent one moment trimming, gluing, converting, painting, or basing a miniature?

------------

This "my way of doing the hobby is superior to your way of doing the hobby" thing is something I will never, ever understand.

Askari
30-04-2010, 14:43
I see it here on the board all the time "Im going to make a traitor guard army using the FW models" see I read that and get excited thinking its going to be a break from the usual lists then i read the second paragraph which usually says somthing like "so what im going to do is make a mech vet list with valkyries and vultures and psyker squads" why? your playing renegade guard, you already have a list, try using it


In all fairness I think the point is exaggerated with IA books, many places don't accept them as "true" rulebooks so Vraksian Renegade players are forced to use the "normal" IG codex, so I think that situation is a little different to the "Blood Templar Wolves" syndrome outlined in the OP.

Hashmal
30-04-2010, 14:56
Blasphemy, that's why. According to the Gospel of Ward all Space Marines (including chaos ones) secretly strive to be Ultramrines in general, and Calgar in particular, therefor your so called "Omega Bluebloods" must be purged for failling to honor The Big Blue properly by using the wrong codex:shifty:


Hate to break this to you, but those Ultramarines...

..they're really Alpha Legion. :shifty:

MarshalFaust
30-04-2010, 15:05
haha i love it i think next game i have im going to use my imperial fists with the chaos codex and tell my friend they are alpha legion.

Mannimarco
30-04-2010, 15:06
true enough theyre not "tourney legal". I dont like that term though as many many people have no intention of playing in a tourney ever, Ive come across the mentality of "its not tourney legal so im not playing it, I dont play in tourneys and I know this is only a pick up game playing for fun but your list isnt tourney legal so no"

I play in store as I cant find any clubs around here (if anybody knows one in west lothian iin scotland do get in touch) and have yet to meet any staff who have a problem with it, the only problem you are likely to meet is from other gamers.

yabbadabba
30-04-2010, 15:07
@op: there is so much hot air on here. There are three things to take into account.

1) Are your regular opponents aware of what you are planning, or are they open minded enough just to give it a go.
2) have you picked models, codex and a paint scheme you enjoy? I would encourage some consistency for identification. So you might pick Space Wolf Models with Blood Angel colour scheme with Codex Space Marines for rules. That is all 100% fine as long as your opponent is aware of what you have done before playing.
3) If you plan to use this at avenue that is not under your control, do they have any restrictions that might stop you playing with your army?

I played against an Eldar army using IG codex, back when Eldar Guardians had lasguns, all converted up. First game was tricky, but second one was absolutely no problems. Your models, your choice.

Hunger
30-04-2010, 15:33
I dislike players using the latest codex. My GW compass points to the simple fact that Space Wolves are not Blood Angels, therefore they should not be used as Blood Angels, for the same reason above that Orks should not be used as Eldar. Each army has its own codex, use the correct one.

I also think that if you are going to do a homebrew Space Marine chapter, it should be drawn from the normal Codex: Space Marines - the chapter-specific codices are there to give the chapters they represent a unique flavour.

That said, if your homebrew successor chapter is clearly modelled appropriately to represent SW/BT/BA or whatever then thats fine, likewise if your Guard army contains lots of non-GW miniatures, or your Orks are modelled to look malnourished, wear colourful robes and such like.

The same goes for totally homebrew armies - I always enjoy facing such things as Adeptus Mechanicus legions or Eldar Harlequins where someone has made the effort to create a well-modelled army. Use unofficial rules, or your own homebrew rules if you like, as long as it fits with the fluff for the faction.

To me its all about the reasoning behind using a particular codex - is this person using it because it is genuinely the best codex to represent their army? (Yep, I'll happily play you). Are they using it because they are mindless bandwagon jumpers and have to play the latest army because its the In Thing? (No game). Are they just using it for some kind of advantage? (No game). Or do they not put any thought or effort into the miniatures they bring to the battlefield? (No game).

It can often be hard to tell these different kinds of player apart, but I'll always give someone the benefit of the doubt, and am always happy to teach a new player (who may not fully understand SM chapters yet). However if today your schizophrenic red-armoured BA-iconography-covered Space Marines are going to be Black Templars, and tomorrow they are going to be Imperial Fists, and Tuesday they will have a set of your own rules modified from Codex: Space Marines, then you're not getting a game.

I play for fluff, to write the story of the battle and add to the history of my army. I have no interest in playing people who don't want to invest some thought and effort into their army. Thankfully everyone I play regularly is of the same opinion, and it is uncommon to come across codex-hoppers when I play in public.

MarshalFaust
30-04-2010, 15:59
I guess the way i see it is that rules can come and go and in the case of most marine codexes can be interchanged with no wysiwig conflicts at all. when i collect an army the rules are always second in terms of how i want it to look and how i want to play.

i think the conflict comes from people who view the rules and codex as primary and making your army/models fit that mold. i guess there is nothing wrong with that its just a different point of view about how the game is played.

to me the rules an army follows has nothing to do with my fluff. my army are imperial fists whether i am using CSM, CSW, or CBA i see the different codex as merely options for different play styles.

Logarithm Udgaur
30-04-2010, 18:31
Why wouldn't anyone want to do that?

Because they would rather play the army they built, regardless of power level, rather than switch to the shiny new codex where everything is better/cheaper.

susu.exp
30-04-2010, 19:03
A friend of mine is working on a marine army. He“s painting up various special units to fill the specialized slots of the various marine codices (a Death Company, Sword bethren, etc.) and keeps a core of those standard units (Tacticals, Rhinos, Vindicators). His reasoning is that one of the things that can make marines less balnd is opting for the various codices and I agree (facing at least different brands of marines is more interesting than always facing marines period).

Paint schemes don“t neccessarily influence rules (the exception is that red wants to go faster - and actually does so). And a Iyaniden army without wratih constructs is still perfectly fluffy (they merely use them more, not exclusively and any particular force may not have them at all).

As to traitor guard - I think both the SoV list and codex IG are viable. Vraksian renegades however is a rather particular force and some themes are better build using the IG dex. I“ve had bits left from an ealier conversion and build 10 traitor Rough Riders (using bits from the mounted chaos marauders and Cadians). This unit will at some point find its way into a traitor guard army and this will use the IG dex - the SoV list doesn“t include Rough Riders. Nor the deathstrike, which is just too phallic not to include in a Slannesh themed traitor army...

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-04-2010, 20:07
"@op: there is so much hot air on here. There are three things to take into account.

1) Are your regular opponents aware of what you are planning, or are they open minded enough just to give it a go.
2) have you picked models, codex and a paint scheme you enjoy? I would encourage some consistency for identification. So you might pick Space Wolf Models with Blood Angel colour scheme with Codex Space Marines for rules. That is all 100% fine as long as your opponent is aware of what you have done before playing.
3) If you plan to use this at avenue that is not under your control, do they have any restrictions that might stop you playing with your army?

I played against an Eldar army using IG codex, back when Eldar Guardians had lasguns, all converted up. First game was tricky, but second one was absolutely no problems. Your models, your choice. "

I orginally asked this because my fantasy gaming group (those of us with no 40K) were going to start collecting 40K armies. However, we love variety and it just so happens that even though we love variety my friends are all spilt on what armies to get.

Primarliy one of my peeps (that already has a army) hates S.M so much so that he wouldn't play them if set on a table, while polar opposite of him another uses Ultra M as "counts as" whatever suits his mood. Thusly, after arguements and research -the few new players are picking armies that the rest of my friends don't have.

This was problematic at the time though, because I was interested in S.M and liked and disliked certain aspects of armies leaving me to wonder if I created my own chapeter or company etc. . . if using a "incorrect codex" was done often and or if people agreed or disagreed to play the army in pick-ups etc. . . Essentially I was curious on the general consensus of the folk that play 40K not just my friends since they would just fight over whats "morally" right ot wrong and for their own benefit.

However, this is a non-issue now as I' am pretty dead set on getting Krieg.

Thanx for input all!

Drasanil
30-04-2010, 20:34
I always find it odd when anyone -- ANYONE -- feels that they are somehow entitled to judge how other people spend their hobby time and money.

Really? Every one judges everything all the time, consciously or not, but you fail to understand why someone would judge the way someone else goes about a hobby they share in common? How someone approches the hobby is a good indicator of whether it's the type of person you want to have a game with or not, it's that simple really.

Further more people end up discussing the their approach to the hobby say on a website like warseer and that others comment upon it pretty normal as well, its not very different than how people go to the Backround forum to discuss fluff.


A friend of mine has a beautiful, custom-converted and painted space marine army. It doesn't look like any given chapter in particular, and he switches from book to book based on what strikes his fancy (including chaos, with the addition of demons). Is he entitled to do this because he spent more time on the hobby, while the kid who painted his blue is not entitled to, because he has not?

In both cases it's somewhat annoying especially since most codex flippers tend to go for the newest and/or easiest thing to win with, that your friend actually put effort into his army would simply makes it less so. As for this hypothetical kid, if he made an ultramarines army he can flip codexes to his heart's content, that doesn't mean I'll play him if he shows up with a BA list though.


What if you learn that this friend purchased this army, and has never spent one moment trimming, gluing, converting, painting, or basing a miniature?

If he tried passing it off as his own work, I'd think rather poorly of him for trying to take credit for someone else's work. Otherwise I wouldn't really care, though I don't understand the appeal of fielding an army that's not really yours.


------------

This "my way of doing the hobby is superior to your way of doing the hobby" thing is something I will never, ever understand.

Every one has their own preferences when it comes to the hobby and naturally prefer to play with people who share a similar approach, which is all it basicly boils down to. While there is no objective "better" there different schools of thought on the matter that tend to be mutally-exlusive and as such percieved as better by certain people/groups

And I will never, ever understand this whole "who are you to judge" schtick, it's intellectually dishonest and reeking of self-righteousness.

SPYDER68
30-04-2010, 20:36
Just use the Imperial guard codex for them, its much easier..


if you decide to use FW rules.. be sure to check with your group to see if they allow them to be used.

scopedog91
30-04-2010, 20:38
I'd be lucky to even play against a fully painted army at the FLGS.
So, according to some, I have to buy and paint at least 3 sets of Marines, in three correct paint schemes, just to play the local douchbags?
The stink is enough to peel the paint off your models anyway...

Nezalhualixtlan
30-04-2010, 20:51
I really don't get the people that get so indignant about other's changing what codex they use to put together a legal list. I have trouble believing they are good players if they're always so frightened of playing the next new shiney codex. I don't care what my opponent uses as long as its a current codex and legal list from a single codex (or allies if such a thing is legal from multiple codexes). Personally I like the challenge of facing down the new upstart lists, I figure it gives me a novel experience and tests and helps me grow in skill, even if I lose. But then I am confident in my skill at strategy and tactics already.

Drasanil
30-04-2010, 20:57
So, according to some, I have to buy and paint at least 3 sets of Marines, in three correct paint schemes, just to play the local douchbags?

Or you know, you could buy and paint the one set and not be a bandwagon munchkin.

Meriwether
30-04-2010, 21:46
Otherwise I wouldn't really care, though I don't understand the appeal of fielding an army that's not really yours.

I have carpal tunnel and tendonitis in both wrists. Painting hurts, and continues to hurt for days or weeks afterwards. If I could afford it, every one of my armies would be painted by someone else.


And I will never, ever understand this whole "who are you to judge" schtick, it's intellectually dishonest and reeking of self-righteousness.

LOL. I hope you appreciate the irony of that statement.

Logarithm Udgaur
30-04-2010, 22:11
On the first point, judging by your post count, I do not believe you.

On the second point, who cares? Do what you want with your army, but do not expect people to give you props, or even a game, if they do not feel like it.

Project2501
30-04-2010, 22:23
@ The OP:

Let me tell you a story about what has happened to me over the last 24hrs...

Last night I was looking through old White Dwarfs and 40k pics and came across the Sons of Sparta space marine squad Golden Daemon entry (google Sons of Sparta Space Marines for more info/pics). I now want to 'borrow':angel: the idea and make it a full fledged playable army.

Now, I'm mildly eccentric in that when I have an idea it needs to be reflected in the models even though I do not expect anyone else to do the same. However, as I looked around to see how I could legitimately ge shields on space marines (whole squads/the whole army), I found that there really was no way I could get combat shields, only storm shields on any large number of space marines.

So instead of doing yet another all terminator army modelled to be Spartans, I'm just going to model a boatload of power armored space marines with shields and try out various SM codexes until I find one that fits the theme.

First up will be BA because I believe the shields could be a great way to represent Feel No Pain.

If it doesn't work out, then I will simply try another codex. Who knows maybe using them to 'count as' space marine bikers would work out better for the T5 and they can finally move more...

Six years from now when 6th edition (hypotheticaly) comes out, I'll have to do the codex cycle all over again.

In short, given the above example, there are always instances where trying a different codex happens, and whether you like the rational behind it or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is whether you want to continue to participate/encourage this hobby or not, and the answer to that question is what you should base your reaction upon.

Drasanil
30-04-2010, 22:36
I have carpal tunnel and tendonitis in both wrists. Painting hurts, and continues to hurt for days or weeks afterwards. If I could afford it, every one of my armies would be painted by someone else.

Odd that you have such a high post count then. How ever if it is true that painting causes you physical pain then yes it does make sense not to want to paint your own minis, of course for most that's not the case.


LOL. I hope you appreciate the irony of that statement.

I understand the perceived irony, but the fact of the matter is everyone judges everything and it's those who claim not to judge or say that judging is "bad" that are normally a) full of it and b) lying.

Heck you were just judging me for judging while claiming that judging is bad :p

samiens
30-04-2010, 22:49
despite what it says in my signature- i feel the pain of people who play an army that really is underpowered and totally understand them jumping codex (dirty as it feels to me). Just because we might play to enter and win tournaments doesn't mean we don't have fluff preferences- I love DA and regret I no longer have a DA army because of our Dex (though I may change that very soon)

Yes, we all judge people- but in a social hobby its downright anti-social to take out your preferences on people in a 'free' environment- this is the difference between having an opinion and discriminating.

So I don't like codex jumping and don't do it (though many would think its fine for DA)- but life's too short not too play someone because that lets them get their kicks

yabbadabba
30-04-2010, 23:13
I orginally asked this because my fantasy gaming group (those of us with no 40K) were going to start collecting 40K armies. However, we love variety and it just so happens that even though we love variety my friends are all spilt on what armies to get.
Primarliy one of my peeps (that already has a army) hates S.M so much so that he wouldn't play them if set on a table, while polar opposite of him another uses Ultra M as "counts as" whatever suits his mood. Thusly, after arguements and research -the few new players are picking armies that the rest of my friends don't have.
This was problematic at the time though, because I was interested in S.M and liked and disliked certain aspects of armies leaving me to wonder if I created my own chapeter or company etc. . . if using a "incorrect codex" was done often and or if people agreed or disagreed to play the army in pick-ups etc. . . Essentially I was curious on the general consensus of the folk that play 40K not just my friends since they would just fight over whats "morally" right ot wrong and for their own benefit.
However, this is a non-issue now as I' am pretty dead set on getting Krieg.
Thanx for input all! Sounds sweet fella, but do remember that as long as you aim for fun and you can find an opponent up for the challenge, then anything goes. There is no "right" or "wrong" and the GW Fun Police won't cart you off to be processed if you change things. Kick back, relax, have fun fella and let us know how your games in your group go :D

thwaak
30-04-2010, 23:35
Back in the day of Rogue Trader, when things were fast and loose, I built a Chapter of SM called Nosferatu. Had a history for them and everything. It was a fast attack army, with lots of jump pack marines, flyers, and those old-school IA jetbikes.

Now that it would appear that I'm coming out of 40K retirement, the only way I could adequately model that army again would probably be (or so I've read) to use the BA Codex.

I gather that some would be fine with that, and others would throw a fit?

Meriwether
01-05-2010, 00:30
On the first point, judging by your post count, I do not believe you.

Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Look it up, bee-atches. (I do have to type some things. Like "bee-atches".) :evilgrin:

I type some posts, especially at work, but most of my posting comes while I'm at home, and most of that is using Dragon.


Do what you want with your army, but do not expect people to give you props, or even a game, if they do not feel like it.

Oh, indeed. I just find the outright condemnation to be a combination of puzzling and hilarious.

Alessander
01-05-2010, 00:44
My marine army is black armor with yellow trim. The blood angels codex is the best codex to represent my army. I have a perfectly logical explanation. The people who know the fluff best will realize that not every blood angels-rules-themed army has to be painted red.

Lothlanathorian
01-05-2010, 06:53
I am painting my Marines up using Blood Angels bits mixed in with some Dark Angels stuff (Wings & swords). I am modeling my army to be a Blood Angels successor called The Iron Choir. I am using Infernus Pistols and Hand Flamers. I will also have extra models about without these to replace the models that do have them if I feel like playing using Codex Space Marines because I enjoy using that Codex, also. I am switching between two Codices. I also don't play in any tournies and will most likely be playing my games against the same three or four people.

I don't see how anyone could have a problem with this. Just because someone plays their Space Marine army with two different Codices depending on the mood and the kind of game they want to have does not make them a band wagon jumper or a WAAC gamer. I've played Blood Angles, Space Wolves and Codex Marines since 3rd Edition. I've always had a DIY Marine army (except when I played Wolves in 3rd. I don't see how you can play and not model them as BA OTT Super Space Viking in Awesometanium Armor) that I played as both Vanilla Marines and Blood Angels depending on what I wanted play as far as playstyle goes. Anyone who would call me or anyone who plays strictly for the enjoyment of the game a 'band wagon jumper' clearly has issues with having fun and letting others have theirs.

That's right up their with hating on someone because they play both black and red pieces in checkers, depending on what side of the board they decide to sit at.

IcedAnimals
01-05-2010, 07:15
I have met someone who literally refused to play another player because his blue marines weren't ultramarines. However I later found out that he has no problem playing someone who has not painted any of their models other than a black primer.

So because the guy put more effort into his army he was denied a game where he wanted to try something new. compared to the guy who spray painted his models and owns every marine codex it seemed off.

If your army follows WYSIWYG I have no problem what so ever. I played a guy who did the craziest conversions I have ever seen with his daemon army. LED lights and all kinds of stuff. I couldn't tell what anything was but it was a great game.

Marines who still have bolters but are painted black and pink instead of red and blue is no where near as confusing.

Lothlanathorian
01-05-2010, 07:58
I had a friend with a radio controlled Land Raider, but I think that's about as epic as my conversion stories get. I want to play light up demons!! :cries:

Meriwether
02-05-2010, 03:40
On the first point, judging by your post count, I do not believe you.

I suppose an apology was too much to expect, eh?

Drasanil
02-05-2010, 04:01
I suppose an apology was too much to expect, eh?

This! Is! WARSEER!








...what did you expect? :angel:

Logarithm Udgaur
02-05-2010, 05:09
I suppose an apology was too much to expect, eh?

You want me to apologize because I do not believe you? If it will sate your ego, you have my most profound apologizes.

Meriwether
02-05-2010, 13:20
LOL. If you like, I can have my wife take some video of me using my voice recognition software and send it your way.

scopedog91
02-05-2010, 18:41
Wow, off topic much you guys?
Whine-seer, forum of fools...oh yeah, paint schemes...

Meriwether
02-05-2010, 22:27
Wow, off topic much you guys?

Not at all. My inability to paint without pain is linked to my medical condition, which was cast into doubt by my post-count (this being the internet, where anyone can claim to be anything), which impacted my argument that how much who puts into what aspect of this hobby is a silly thing to harp on.

I was merely proffering evidence that I do, in fact, use voice recognition software to type.

Brimweave
03-05-2010, 11:54
I think the main issue is not the paint scheme for a codex that a player chooses as even blood angels can be other colors except red, but if a player doesn't stick to a single codex once he/she has their marine army is what gets people annoyed. If its a friendly match people are okay with it normally but semi competive matches it'll likely be more frowned upon if you switch between marine codexes.

To answer the OP question people do go between marine codex sometimes to get abit of flavour or whatever is the most powerful codex at the time. Its the opponents choice really if they want to play against them with the new codex.

AGC
03-05-2010, 12:58
Here's a quote for everyone:-

"...we never said all Dark Angels have to be green!"
--Jes Goodwin, Games Workshop design studio podcast.

and a link (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat1290031&categoryId=1000019&section=&aId=9400003).