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View Full Version : where do you think wotr will go now?



gork or maybe mork
27-04-2010, 19:24
After lotr: apocalypse (battlehosts), what do you think gw will do next?

Do you think they'll invent some new troops to fill out a supplement, or go down the route of a mighty empires or generals compendium-esque book detailing campaign ideas?

Nu Fenix
27-04-2010, 19:40
I would rather the second option out of the two.

However, it took them a year to make something big for WOTR, so I would expect the same time frame for anything of a similar scale release.

In the mean time, I hope they keep working on all the models that currently don't exist, as making new models and rules whilst there is still existing things to make would be frustrating.

Perhaps books and models related to the Second Age? It is just the First Age that GW don't have the rights to, correct?

Reinholt
27-04-2010, 19:49
In terms of something I feel confident speculating on, I think that there will be either an expansion or fleshing out of WotR (and possibly SBG) based around the Hobbit movies as well.

There will be new portrayals there, expansion of the world in film, and more focus on some of the events leading up to the War of the Ring (which, in many ways, are actually ideal for WotR as well).

So I think "The Hobbit" timeframe and the events leading up to that and following it would offer some pretty rich ground for GW.

malisteen
27-04-2010, 19:52
I'm hoping for a second edition that tightens up some of the rules questions, re-balances some of the points costs, and maybe re-shuffles some of the army assignments - maybe black numenorians and morgul knights in mordor instead of fallen realms; maybe re-cast Angmar as a more general 'dark places' grouping, and shift the necromancer and castellans over, etc.

I'd also like to see more fluff & lore in the rulebook, especially regarding some of the more esoteric units & setting elements.

Reinholt
27-04-2010, 19:55
I'm hoping for a second edition that tightens up some of the rules questions, re-balances some of the points costs, and maybe re-shuffles some of the army assignments - maybe black numenorians and morgul knights in mordor instead of fallen realms; maybe re-cast Angmar as a more general 'dark places' grouping, and shift the necromancer and castellans over, etc.

I'd also like to see more fluff & lore in the rulebook, especially regarding some of the more esoteric units & setting elements.

Already in the now-current White Dwarf; they can be taken for both Mordor and the Fallen Realms, which is appropriate based on Tolkien's background, as there are Black Numenoreans in both regions.

ForgottenLore
27-04-2010, 21:56
Assuming the hobbit movie stays on schedule then yeah, next yer should be some sort of hobbit supplement. Then the year after that something for the second hobbit film. That would make for 4 years the gem had been out so a second edition next would be OK.

That would make

2009 - WotR released
2010 - Battlehosts
2011 - Hobbit release
2012 - Hobbit release
2013 - WotR second edition

Speaking of WotR hobbit stuff, do you guys think they will just add some units to existing armies or create some whole new forces, such as a Dale army, maybe wood elves separate from the other elves.

Or just add new elf formations to elves, more dwarf formations to dwarves, more goblin formations to misty mountains.

fracas
27-04-2010, 23:03
more than anything else the rule set needs tightening followed by more options for the armies.
generic generals. less spell casters.
separation of the fallen realms into eastern forces and southrons.
separate out second age heroes from third age and fourth age.

ForgottenLore
27-04-2010, 23:54
Oh, I should add that I think they will eventually go with a army book/codex style system, but that will be a while yet.

Reinholt
28-04-2010, 00:41
Oh, I should add that I think they will eventually go with a army book/codex style system, but that will be a while yet.

This is one I actually disagree with from a business perspective, but that's another thread for another time. In terms of previous precedent for LotR, GW did supplements based more along the timeframe of the Tolkien world and certain events therein, so you tended to get good-evil matched sides and their related elements.

ForgottenLore
28-04-2010, 01:40
But they did those supplements when LotRs fever was at its peak and for a small scale skirmish game that used individual warriors not armies.

I don't LIKE the idea of them going to a codex system, but if they keep supporting the game I would bet they do it eventually.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject Reinholt, and it seems to me that a thread about how WotR will look in the future is the perfect place, but if you don't want to get bogged down in that discussion I understand. It is a pretty pointless argument since GW will do whatever they do and we can't stop them.

FashaTheDog
28-04-2010, 02:43
While only Forgeworld would even consider it, a few First Age armies would be really great. To see units like the Serpents and Wraiths of Angband, the Edain, the Princes of the Noldor, Maiar, and perhaps the Valar, Galurung, and Morgoth would be rather epic.

darkened sun
28-04-2010, 04:02
I don't think GW have the rights to the Silmarillion, so they wouldn't be able to make stuff from it. But yeah, that would be the best possible thing that they could expand to, the previous ages.

They could do a siege supplement but I seriously doubt that it would be commercially successful. As far as I know warhammer siege was basically a flop and not that popular.

ForgottenLore
28-04-2010, 04:10
If they wanted to I can't imagine getting the rights for Silmarillion games would be that difficult or expensive.

The problem is that the Simarillion is just too "big". Most of the character's named in the book would probably be 400+ points, a lot of the bad guys would simply not be doable at a reasonable point level. What are they going to do, create the "Crazy, Over the Top, Massively Tough, So Insane It's Comically Hard to Kill Table"? They had Balrogs as grunt troops for Pete's sake.

Khamul
28-04-2010, 07:32
I really hope they do some sort of Hobbit version. Smaug would be pretty sweet.The Silmarillion is just to big. They'll probably go into Sourcebooks, like they did with SBG.

Midloo
28-04-2010, 18:40
Assuming the hobbit movie stays on schedule then yeah, next yer should be some sort of hobbit supplement. Then the year after that something for the second hobbit film. That would make for 4 years the gem had been out so a second edition next would be OK.


Just wanted to jump in to comment on the above: Peter Jackson has been all over entertainment news lately talking about The Hobbit movies. According to him, there is no timeline as the script was just finished and the movie hasn't been green-lit yet. Any timeline floating around has been created by fans or analysts.

Add that to the fact that the studio is suffering major financial issues and you might not be looking at anything for quite a while. Even the latest Bond movie has been postponed and that was also a guaranteed money maker.

Hellfury
29-04-2010, 12:15
If they wanted to I can't imagine getting the rights for Silmarillion games would be that difficult or expensive.

Tell that to Christopher Tolkien who retains the rights. He views it as sacrosanct and thats the reason why you wont see it in any alternate form other than an audiobook.

That said, I would LOVE a silmarillion book for WotR. I just have to content myself in making armies similar in vein from my own knowledge of the book. Which in many ways can be better than someone else dictating how they should be.

I think the next likely type of book we will see is something akin to campaigns or new types of scenarios. Easiest way to encourage fan fare for the game with the most minimal of effort.

Putty
29-04-2010, 12:24
After lotr: apocalypse (battlehosts), what do you think gw will do next?

Do you think they'll invent some new troops to fill out a supplement, or go down the route of a mighty empires or generals compendium-esque book detailing campaign ideas?

Tanks.

Or lots of Monsters.

Garion
29-04-2010, 13:12
I think they will wait for the release of the Hobbit before it goes anywhere. I think they will introduce a lot more from the other books once the film has been released

GreyWolf
29-04-2010, 16:50
If the Dalemen and Beornings get added to WotR, chances are they'll be in the Forgotten Kingdoms. Not so sure about the Silmarillion though; I have a feeling that that would be better as a BoFA-style game. I would like to see miniatures based on The Children of Hurin though, because that would be far more likely to work in a supplement for both WotR and SBG.

VonUber
29-04-2010, 18:24
lotr has stoped turning much profit, they tried out war of the ring and that died on its feet. I think GW is hoping when the hobbit movies are out that there sales will go up so there just biding there time. If they dont go up during the hobbit movies I think it may go in the way of the specialist games.

Hellfury
30-04-2010, 06:08
If the Dalemen and Beornings get added to WotR, chances are they'll be in the Forgotten Kingdoms.

Beornings are already in there, in the very spot you mention.

Glucksbar
30-04-2010, 15:23
lotr has stoped turning much profit ... I think it may go in the way of the specialist games.

Source? I heard, that it did very well. And since I didn't buy anything from WHFB but a Space Wolf Army and started War of the Ring with Rohan, I heard, that they will put WHFB into the specialist games *beware the sarcasm!* ;)

Battlehosts is just released, let's all wait what it will bring. I will buy the book and build some themed armies (oh yeah, you got me GW, someday I will even buy your hobby-tools)

Do they still have the licence? And till when? I'm more curious what they'll do with the SBG. Will they merge it with WotR and form some kind of WotR skirmish? Or will they make a new edition, similar to WotR with every profile in the book? We'll see.

Reinholt
30-04-2010, 16:22
lotr has stoped turning much profit, they tried out war of the ring and that died on its feet. I think GW is hoping when the hobbit movies are out that there sales will go up so there just biding there time. If they dont go up during the hobbit movies I think it may go in the way of the specialist games.

I'm also curious about a source on this one, as everything I've heard directly contradicts this, actually.

The game I have repeatedly heard was losing share was WHFB, and that was occurring primarily outside of the UK.

Avatar of the Eldar
01-05-2010, 07:41
The game I have repeatedly heard was losing share was WHFB, and that was occurring primarily outside of the UK.

Second that. Furthermore, the WFB 8th ed rumors indicate several mechanics similar to WotR.

It's generally regarded as a well designed game and the primary reasons it stuggles to "catch on" are a) the dominance of the other two systems, one of them already a fantasy game and b) GW hasn't done much to promote it.

lorelorn
01-05-2010, 08:41
Lord of the Rings is not 'making a loss' at all. It now accounts for a lesser percentage of overall sales than at the height of the films, but that is only to be expected.

I understand that Warhammer has now overtaken LotR to be GWs second game again, and by overtake, I mean that LotR sales have slowed to behind Warhammer, not that Warhammer sales have increased by much.

As a game that is just not marketed as much (where's the starter set?) WotR is doing very good business. It's less visible in the stores of course, but that's partly a legacy of staff attitudes to the franchise that have been discussed elsewhere.

WotR seems to cater mainly for a group that doesn't play GW's two core systems, and that's a good thing - it means the game doesn't cannibalise from existing sales, but rather brings new sales and new players in.

ForgottenLore
01-05-2010, 12:24
I understand that Warhammer has now overtaken LotR to be GWs second game again, and by overtake, I mean that LotR sales have slowed to behind Warhammer, not that Warhammer sales have increased by much.

Where do you guys get information as to how much each game makes for GW?

lorelorn
02-05-2010, 05:50
You have to:

1. pay close attention to the reports in GWs 'Investor Relations' page. These are quite informative

2. work on good sources of info and add those to the above.

3. deduct specific sales info from what you are given and what you know. For example, if prices rise by a uniform 20% but sales remain steady, then you can work out that unit sales have fallen 20%.

This has been GWs story for a while, selling fewer, more expensive units to ever fewer customers. Releases like Space Hulk and War of the Ring, which sell to new customers, are very important to the company.

War of the Ring has been quite successful, featuring the first GW product in a while I have seen experiencing a product shortage (this was the movement trays, which couldn't keep up with demand in the first few months), and of course you don't release a supplement for any game that 'died on its feet' one year following its debut release.


Games Workshop sells more Space Marines (of all types, including the spiky ones) than the entirety of the warhammer range. Warhammer sales collapsed in the 2002-2006 period and they have picked up since, but are still not stellar. This collapse was masked by the Lord of the Rings bubble - check out GWs sales revenues for those years.

When Lord of the Rings fell back to a 'maintenance' level of sales, it was revealed there wasn't much there to back it up. GW were losing money, and then to make things worse started borrowing money, not to rebuild the business, but to pay dividends to their owners. Never good business practice.

To their credit, they have successfully cut costs, and removed the conflict of having the same individual as Chairman and CEO. Debt has also been paid down over a period with the dividend suspended. However it was the rise in royalty revenues that kept them in the black last year, not sales. GW must attract new customers in order to get back to growth, and War of the Ring is an important part of that.

I can no doubt be corrected on this, but I understand the sales numbers are roughly 40k 45%, warhammer 25%, lotr 20%, black library/forgeworld/specialist 10%. Around two-thirds of those 40k sales are for space marines of one type or another.

So, trying to steer this post back to the topic, I think WotR will continue to be the focus of the Lord of the Ring range between now any a game release for The Hobbit shortly before the first film. SBG 'releases' will be new rules to use any newly released heroes or units in both systems. I expect we'll see 3-4 releases per year of about the size we are now getting (0-2 plastic boxes, 1-3 new epic heroes, some metal warriors) between now and then. Though the Battlehost book caught me by surprise, and a pleasant surprise it is too!

I don't expect many miniatures to be 'refreshed' ahead of the Hobbit films (why do new Dwarves when you'll only redo them again to match the film?) however they have done just that with Dol Amroth Knights and Morgul Knights, and in plastic too. Maybe they will replace all of Gary Morley's figs now he has left.

FashaTheDog
02-05-2010, 15:54
Well I'm doing my damnedest to raise that 20% sales for Black Library and Forgeworld, granted Flames of War is now cutting in, but books are my bread and butter.

Tangent aside, I could see any Hobbit related releases geared towards SBG (or perhaps a second edition thereof) with a part 2 of the movie being a definite focus on the Battle of Five Armies as an expansion for War of the Ring. Complete speculation here, but short of the Silmarillion long shot, what I would like to see.

Hellfury
03-05-2010, 00:13
Now that Warner has confirmed that the Hobbit wont be released any earlier than 2013, I think we can lay to rest much wishlisting about the Hobbit being the next update for WotR.
http://www.cinematical.com/2010/04/28/the-hobbit-officially-pushed-to-2013/

Although, since GW do have the literary rights to make models for the game, its not to say it wont happen.

But do to the free advertising and ultimately the hype that the movies provide, I would guess that we wont see much in the way of anything directly related to the Hobbit (i.e. smaug, lakemen, etc) until close to the time of the movie's release.

GW are now forced to promote the game of their own accord rather than further depend on outside entertainment moguls to do the work for them.

That said, this game wont survive very well without at least some kind of support through either models, literature or both. So the question remains "whats next?"

ForgottenLore
03-05-2010, 00:47
Just after the second paragraph that article announces in big, bold text that the press release was wrong and the official release for the first part is 2012

As for what they might do in th way of supplements before then, I have no idea.

If they would just release more plastic models and a FAQ I would be deliriously happy

Hellfury
03-05-2010, 02:12
Just after the second paragraph that article announces in big, bold text that the press release was wrong and the official release for the first part is 2012

Heh. This is second time they changed it.

From "2012" to "2013" to "2012/2013"... :wtf:

lorelorn
03-05-2010, 03:30
I think they mean December 2012 for the Premiere, which may mean a 2013 opening in many countries.