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Nocculum
27-04-2010, 20:03
I've just returned to Warhammer after a hiatus of about twelve months. Whilst I've kept my Orks (which is 1,000-1,500 depending on configuration) I've not had the chance to play more than one game of a reasonable size in that time. I'm eager to get back into the foray, but there's been several armies released since and the game's shifted no doubt.

Where do Orks stand now in terms of builds, fun themes, and general threat level? I'm looking at expanding to 1,500 proper (no more point buffing with Nobz From Hell etc) and some guidance would be spiffing!

YoungKing
27-04-2010, 20:11
Was about to post the same thing! Looking to get back into 40k and ony Orks really interest me... Not into anything with power armour and Orks seem to fit the bill as far as playstyle.

I didn't see many posts about Orks in the tactics forum or many armylists. I know they aren't the most popular army for a lot of gamers (which I like) but everyone loves to play against them, so how do they rate in 5th(last I played was 3rd) and any tips for myself and Nocculum?

Orcboy_Phil
27-04-2010, 20:45
Orks are still one of the most effective armies in the game with builds allowing hordes, gunlines, MSU and pretty much every style of play that other armies have.

Nocculum
27-04-2010, 20:49
My personal style of Orky fun is mechanised, with Stormboyz coming up one flank and a Battlewagon with what I like to call 'Cheese on Toast', in the form of 15 Burna boys and 4Big Shootas.

It's very much 'Ere We Go! Then krunk, win or boff, lose, but I prefer all eggs in one basket and moving 120 Ork Boyz on foot over the board isn't my cup of tea...

Getifa Ubazza
27-04-2010, 20:53
Orks are a great army. I am working on a Walker army, with lots of Dreads and Kans. Theres no style of play you can't do with them.

Bestaltan
27-04-2010, 21:05
As has been said, Orks right now sit as one of the better armies in 5th, which is odd considering their codex was out before the 5th ruleset. They are almost the most versatile army, with the ability to go all horde, all mech, shooty, dead 'ard assaulty, weird, etc.

The best example for me of how strong and fun the army is was at last year's regional Ard Boyz tournament. The guys playing for 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th places were ALL Ork players, and each one had a completely different army. Not bad at all, considering there were around 24 people there.

Oguleth
27-04-2010, 21:06
It's possibly to build a large number of different lists (horde, mech, shooty, walkerheavy), not all of them are highly tournament competitive, but I find it to be a really entertaining codex for "normal" play at least. I play rather slowly with orks however, so not really attended any tournaments so can't say how I view them in that setting however...

LonelyPath
27-04-2010, 21:12
Orks are one of the better armies out there and sit in the top or near-top tiers depending on the list you run. I've experimented with a few lists myself and found them all very fun to control (even hordes with 120+ models despite the long movement phases), but your opponent may not always agree with how much fun they are to play against.

However, if you take on the Ork mindset they've even more fun, as even if you lose, if you've bashed in some skulls it's still a win in some regard ;)

YoungKing
27-04-2010, 21:36
Great advice!

Where's a good place to get started? Battleforce, some boyz and a boss?

Lord Malorne
27-04-2010, 21:38
AoBR will get you started :)

LonelyPath
27-04-2010, 21:41
Yep, Black Reach is a great start, then add more boyz through Ebay (more AoBR boyz which are very cheap). After getting a good base of boyz (at least 40 I'd say) it's time ti start adding more fun stuff. If you can go halves on a AoBR it's even better value for money if you're not after the SM.

Worsle
27-04-2010, 21:46
Dispite what people are saying orks are one of the worst 40k armies once you start getting the hang of the game. There lack of anti tank, having the worst transport in the game, fearless and terrible ld when they are not, fast attack with nothing but poor mans land speeders in it and quite a lot of other problems leave a lot to be desired. On the plus side orks are easy to play so if your opposition isn't that good or brings terrible lists you will do fine, if thats your thing. Just remember your lootas and hope the other players don't start to bring good armies =/

Oguleth
27-04-2010, 21:46
Two AoBR sets and a box of Nobz (so you can convert some of the nobz in the AoBR sets, plus get some more, and have extra bitz for later) is a pretty good start. Especially if you can trade off marines in one set for someone else's orks or something.

After that it mostly depends on what kind of force you want, mount up in battlewagons/trukks, have lots of kans/dreads, shooty stuff via lootas and such, or just mix and match.

LonelyPath
27-04-2010, 21:57
Dispite what people are saying orks are one of the worst 40k armies once you start getting the hang of the game. There lack of anti tank, having the worst transport in the game, fearless and terrible ld when they are not, fast attack with nothing but poor mans land speeders in it and quite a lot of other problems leave a lot to be desired. On the plus side orks are easy to play so if your opposition isn't that good or brings terrible lists you will do fine, if thats your thing. Just remember your lootas and hope the other players don't start to bring good armies =/

I wouldn;t say they're bad against good players/atmies, I fair pretty well against some good players (as my sig also states). Orks can take a little finess to play right, they aren't 100% straightforward though it's pretty tempting to play them that way, as I do alot of the time yet still managed to bash up a loganwing army the other week with a walker force of orks. It was a fun game for both sides also.

EDIT: I also fail to see the lack of anti-tank when there's plenty of it about in the Ork list. Granted anti-tank shooting isn't that good, but there's plenty of short range and CC anti-tank in the shape of Tankbustas and Klaws.

Nocculum
27-04-2010, 22:09
I'm rather agog at the lack of anti-tank comment too. There's a STR9 Klaw in virtually every unit on the board, and your 'rubbish' if lightly armoured Trukks can propel your boyz 24"+ across the board into an assault, and promptly bash the face of whatever they touch for disgustingly cheap!

YoungKing
27-04-2010, 22:15
Yeah, AoBR looks like a ridiculously good deal.

Are defkoptas viable? They look nice model and stats wise... Also, should every unit of boyz include a nob w/power claw? Are 'Ard boyz viable? What's a solid unit size of boyz?

Just wondering.

Captain Frankus
27-04-2010, 22:17
Tourney wise, I can't say as I have no experience. Fun wise? They are a great, fun army to use, with multiple themes, conversion options, and great models.

Worsle
27-04-2010, 22:25
Seriosuly people are still pushing the idea of meleeing tanks to death as a wonderful idea? First troops need to catch up to tanks, next troops have to hit the tank and finally you have to role well enough on the damage chart. There are units that can do this but they put out large quantities of attacks (and might have rerolls too if lucky). Really people call nids anti tank poor and they have it a lot better than orks even just in melee not even counting the fact their shooting is a lot better too. Tankbustas are just out right terrible while we are at it too, they are also taking up slots that lootas would be a lot better in or nobs but mostly lootas. Also don't give me any of if the tank move good that means it has not done any thing as if you have just failed to do any damage to it you have failed to do anything either.

Trukks are the worst transport in the game and a strong contender for the worst vehicle in the game. It is not a tank so it can get blocked by a bump in the road, it suffers from the terrible curse of +1 on the damage chart, it is AV10 to boot and its shooting? Oh and you can make it cost far to much with a load of upgrades woo! You can not defend trukks they are worse than rhinos, rhinos being little more than a box that can move people from a to b safely and a trukk can't even do that. Oh and even if one some how lucks its way across the board, 12 orks? Woo! How not very scary at all.

LonelyPath orks are not a sutle army by any stretch of the imagination. Most units have their use plastered on them in big neon signs. Sure there are things you can do with them but not anything other armies can't do or do better. I like orks at a concept level too my self it is just they don't work on the table top against good players.

edit. Also should have said if you are trying to punch a tank to death S9 is not that impresive anyway. Mot tanks are only AV10 in the rear what you need insteed is to put out a large number of S5+ attacks like say a group of 6 fiends? As cavalry they also have the moblity to chase tanks down too.

Ozendorph
27-04-2010, 22:32
Dispite what people are saying orks are one of the worst 40k armies once you start getting the hang of the game. There lack of anti tank, having the worst transport in the game, fearless and terrible ld when they are not, fast attack with nothing but poor mans land speeders in it and quite a lot of other problems leave a lot to be desired. On the plus side orks are easy to play so if your opposition isn't that good or brings terrible lists you will do fine, if thats your thing. Just remember your lootas and hope the other players don't start to bring good armies =/

This is pretty much the exact opposite of my opinion. But then, you know what they say about opinions ;)

Battlewagons are awesome, particularly when equipped with Deffrolla and packed full of Nobz or Shoota Boyz. Storm Boyz with Zaggstruk (sp?) are dangerous to, well, pretty much everything. Lootaz are boss and Big Gunz are underrated imo. Loading up the boyz in trukks with PK Nobz will definitely give your opponent a scare, as the open-top assaulting means those guys cover a ton of ground quickly. I've seen a lot of different Ork builds lately, and they're all a handful in their own way.

YoungKing
27-04-2010, 22:36
Alright well I'm not playing to win every game, I'm sure I can be competitive regardless. I'm not going to add to the already giant number of marine players.

Here's what I'm thinking of starting with, if anyone could give me some advice, to get to 1000 points.

10 Boyz
AoBR
10 Stormboyz

This gives me: Warboss, 5 Nobz, 30 Boyz, 3 Deathkoptz, and 10 Stormboyz.

What I'm thinking is using 15 man Boyz units, using a nob each with a power klaw. Warboss with power claw and various gear maybe joining up with the 3 remaining nobz? Deathkoptas, not sure how to equip them, and the 10 stormboyz with a nob w/powerklaw.

This will bring me somewhere between 800-900 points.

Does it make sense? What should I add to hit 1000?

Thanks for suggestions.

Bestaltan
27-04-2010, 22:37
No anti-tank? Two words........

Deff Rolla.

LonelyPath
27-04-2010, 22:41
Worsle, just out of interest, how would you like to see Orks done then? As it stands it seems you like nothing in the list while it's full of good units.

Voss
27-04-2010, 22:47
I'm rather agog at the lack of anti-tank comment too. There's a STR9 Klaw in virtually every unit on the board, and your 'rubbish' if lightly armoured Trukks can propel your boyz 24"+ across the board into an assault, and promptly bash the face of whatever they touch for disgustingly cheap!

I'd read 'no anti-tank' as problems popping land raiders. Its the only way it remotely makes sense (at least at range). The complaints about trukks are baffling though.

Worsle
27-04-2010, 23:04
Deff Rolla? Well I have two words for you.

Narrow vehciel, oppen topped and AV12 sides.

Wait that is not right... But no the deff rolla is not a solution either any good player can pop them. To get into rolla range you need to get into melta range first that is a bad start. Rollas are not that hard to counter if you know what you are doing, also make sure you pay close attention to the ramming rules. Sure it is about the best the orks having against things like land raiders but that is not saying much.

LonelyPath no it is not filled with good units at best you are getting one ok unit per slot. People also focus to much on things in isolation, take the ork boy. If we where playing a 6 point game then the ork boy would be the best thing going only we are not and they are not. Boyz don't give enough when scaled up and at that point peoples theoryhammer falls apart and we are left with all sort of strange results.

There are a lot of things I would like to see done to the orks. Rally the book needs a major overhaul to work in the 5th edition. Really I need to find their old codex again as I think a lot of stuff from it would make them a lot more usable. Like more than 1 special weapon for every 10 orks or zzap guns not being S2d6

Voss if the complains about trukks are baffling explain to me how it is not so? Is the trukk or is it not AV10 with a +1 on all rolls on the damage chart? Does it or does it not leave a proper wreckage for cover? Does it have the chance to scatter your squad in a random direction? Does it not leave a small and damaged ork squad behind it? Does it have any shooting worth caring about? Is it going to go at any speed once it is a pile of rubble? I am pretty sure I am making my self clear here the trukk, it is worse than the rhino and I don't think any one would call the rhino something special would they? A metal box maybe but special?

Bestaltan
27-04-2010, 23:11
Wow, if you think that the deff rolla/battlewagon is easy to counter, I'll leave you to your confusions.

Simple fact is 3-4 battlewagons tucked up nice and tight around a big mek with the KFF is currently one of the toughest nuts to crack in 40k. It can roll over anything, and considering there are usually 70-80 boyz of various makes and molds inside said battlewagons, your opponent is gonna drown in green.

And you honestly, honestly think that their 3rd edition stuff would work better in 5th? There's a reason I threw away that piece of junk the moment the new codex came out.......

LonelyPath
27-04-2010, 23:21
Worsle, I can see why you don't like trukks for being frail, but they're not meant to last all that long. They're a fast delivery system for units that'll ie up an enemy unit or 2 to stop them from shooting while you take less damamage whilst closing in. I also like the Ramshackle rule, it adds a little unpredictable fun to the game. Ork tech isn;t reliable, so the trukks being so breakable works with the fluff.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on our own views on the codex though, as it's abviously very different books that we see in our own minds.

Doppleskanger
27-04-2010, 23:22
@ Young King

get a box of killa Kans coz the models are awesome!

Worsle
27-04-2010, 23:26
Ok a simple how to take out the battlewagon shall we? Deploy in opposite corners. No that is it with my forces split like that you will not be able hide the AV12 of the wagons given how narrow the model is. AV12 and open topped is not that hard to take out, and defiantly not harder to take out than say an IG army that is filled with AV12. You are far to impressed with something that is ultimately tragically flawed.

YoungKing the deathkoptz need the tl rokkits and give one a buzzsaw too. Other than that look into a big mech with a kff, lootas, buggies with more tl rokkets and killa kanz.

LonelyPath fairth enough but I will simply say that you need to be in one piece to be a delivery system. I don't think asking for that much really.

Bestaltan
28-04-2010, 00:35
Ok a simple how to take out the battlewagon shall we? Deploy in opposite corners. No that is it with my forces split like that you will not be able hide the AV12 of the wagons given how narrow the model is. AV12 and open topped is not that hard to take out, and defiantly not harder to take out than say an IG army that is filled with AV12. You are far to impressed with something that is ultimately tragically flawed.


Really? Split your army in half, while mine stays nice and tightly compacted and whole to wipe out half your force while you might take out 1-2 battlewagons?

Can I play you in this year's Ard Boyz, please?

IcedAnimals
28-04-2010, 02:57
Going to say I also disagree with worsle. Orks have many great HQ choices. Biker warbosses, Big Meks, heros choices oh my.

Elites has meganobz, nobs on foot or on bike as some of the strongest units in the game. And they are competing against lootas another great unit.

Troop choices ork boyz are 6 points and get 4 str 4 attacks each on the charge. They are a great troop choice. Mech orks seem to do alright by rushing the crap out of you. Trucks while easy to pop are cheap and do their job.

The codex really has no "bad" units in it. Everything is decent with some stuff in it being great. Those great units tend to overshadow the other stuff but that stuff is by no means bad.

Orks have trouble poping moving land raiders, but honestly land raiders arent scary. The crusader could do some damage to the orks but if its moving its not killing orks. The redeemer could cause some serious mayhem among ork ranks and is in my opinion the most dangerous but it is trying to get up close to you right where you need it to be to destroy it.

In anything under 1500 orks are probably the most dangerous army in the game. Once you get above that they balance off and are just a well put together and fun army to play.

Pandir
28-04-2010, 03:18
Ok a simple how to take out the battlewagon shall we? Deploy in opposite corners. No that is it with my forces split like that you will not be able hide the AV12 of the wagons given how narrow the model is. AV12 and open topped is not that hard to take out, and defiantly not harder to take out than say an IG army that is filled with AV12. You are far to impressed with something that is ultimately tragically flawed.


AV12 with more than likely a +4 save and possible negated immobilized and weapon destroyed. Even if there was no LoS blocking on the board and you had clear shots to side armor you would still in all likelihood have to get past saves from KFF.

Tenken
28-04-2010, 03:54
Don't listen to worsle, he doesn't know what he's on about. I love my orks, your standard boy is nearly the equivalent of a marine, but with no armor and like 1/3 the points. Trukks are fragile, but they do their job, which is to get your boyz across the table, and they're DIRT CHEAP, it's not hard to have 6+ trukks and 3+ battlewagons all on the field at the same time, that kind of target saturation makes it easy to guarantee alot of your stuff is going to get where it needs to get.

To be competitive with orks remember one word: Redundancy. Take at least 2 of anything you think you might have to rely on. Mostly because ork things dies relatively easily, but also ork stuff is, one the whole, super cheap, so you can afford to have redundant units.

Orks are super fun too, and almost everything in their codex is good. Most people don't care for flash gitz, but I like them. Just remember they're nobz and are still pretty good in combat, and they have a ton of dakka!!! Other than them though pretty much everything in the ork 'dex is great. Even tankbustas, because they're so cheap. What is a marine paying for a str 8 ap 3 shot these days? More than 15 points I'd dare say. So what if you have to shoot the nearest vehicle (in sight), you should be doing that anyway!!! And against nids they're just a nightmare. They pop open warrior units like they're goin out of style. Pretty much everything else in the army explains itself.

Overall orks are a good army, with some very competitive builds. More importantly though, they're a ton of fun! They have lots of character and are comic in a grim dark universe of grimmy darkness. They have alot of variety, so you'll never want for a certain type of army. And no one hates orks, it's a fact.:D

Irondog
28-04-2010, 05:25
Worsle, you say that people focus on things in isolation and that their theoryhammer is flawed. Well, aren't you doing pretty much the same thing?

You keep saying that Orks are no good against any player who is halfway decent, and giving examples that are situational at best. A lot of your points seem to be of the "If the Ork guy does this, then I'll do that" variety. Many things happen on the tabletop, few of which can be foreseen. You are focusing on individual units and either how much they suck or how easy they are to take out.

It is not the units themselves, but how they are used in combination with other units that make the Orks strong. That pretty much goes for any army, but is especially true for Orks. It's not what you got, but how you use it. An Ork army is greater than the sum of it's parts. You should stop trying to be an internet tough guy and making sweeping generalizations.

You have no idea what your opponent is going to try and pull on you, so saying that "Well, I'll just do this" is guesswork at best.

To the OP, Orks are a strong army but can take a bit of practice to win against good players. I've been playing Orks for years (waaaay before the new codex) and have won two tournaments in the past year with them. The last one was a 2000 point tournament, two weeks ago. I faced two IG armies similar to the 'leafblower' build. I tabled one of them and the other guy beat me by one kill point, and that was only because I immobilized my own Battlewagon with 2 consecutive 1's, delaying my rush into his line. If my dice hadn't screwed me, I would've been in his face 2 turns earlier and things may have turned out differently.

Orks are tough, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Memnos
28-04-2010, 07:01
This is pretty much the exact opposite of my opinion. But then, you know what they say about opinions ;)


Everybody's got one, but people who's opinion are the Orks suck are wrong?

I'm pretty sure that's how the saying goes. ;)

I would agree with Oz. Orks are solid. Meleeing tanks is a good idea, because you hit on the rear and most things are AV10 on the rear. Even your average boy can get a glance on that and when you're tossing out over 100 attacks, if the tank isn't wrecked it isn't causing much damage. And most tanks sit back so as not to provide a rear shot.

shabbadoo
28-04-2010, 08:53
Orks are a very competitive list, but the codex is sloppily written so far as many of the special rules and unit upgrade options are concerned.

As to Worsle's comments, you get what you pay for, and Orks can get a lot. What is cheap points-wise you can get a lot of, and that means a ton of Boyz and Gretchin. Beyond that, there are many varieties of Ork armies(i.e. lots of different army builds) that are both competitive and fun to play. As to being mugged by experienced players, that will only happen if your army list is poorly built, you have no concept of strategy, and make poor tactical decisions. I can't speak for others, but I usually do things right, and so I only have two draws with Orks since the 4E codex came out; the rest being wins. This is not the case with other armies I play, but I do very well with them too. My Orks however are leading a charmed life it seems.

The most important thing to remember is that the Ork's Achilles Heel is, ironically enough, close combat. Once an Ork unit is weakened to the point that it is below 11 models, or is close to that number, it becomes a very vulnerable target for an assault. Trukk Boyz already start out that way, so they need back-up if they want to stick around for much longer that an assault phase or two when the enemy is determined to kill them.

Talos
28-04-2010, 09:46
I love orks have yet to lose game with them. Ok I have only played 5 games but still.
I just love my Walker list, 6 Kanz, 2 Deff dreads, 1 battlewagon and a ton of boyz and lootas.
The only thing I wish was that Flash Gitz where Elites, then I could field them as the HS slots fill up fast.

cptmachine
28-04-2010, 11:51
I love my Orks, sure I dont win all my games but I have fun on every single one, as for what you should get... get more boyz, a group of 15 is great, double it to 30 and see the damage it can do and take.

ichbala
28-04-2010, 12:12
You can make almost any ork elite unit from the Ork boyz set

Tankbustas: take the rokkit launchas from the ork boyz set

Kommandos: Take the hooded and gasmask heads from burna boyz and the hooded head from the stormboyz or any unhelmeted head. Give them two knives and stikkbombs and paint them in camo colour.

Lootas: Get your hands on some heavy weapons from your friends and mix them together on normal boyz.

Ard boyz: Jaw plate and two shoulder plates.

santso
28-04-2010, 12:13
lol i hate my opponents orks, lootas,battlewagons(with that stupid KFF),nob bikers or just mass of boyz r just too for my dark eldars.

orks in 5th edition are very competitive, i have to say that their codex is one of the best nowdays.

Latro_
28-04-2010, 15:25
It's not what you got, but how you use it.

never has a truer word been said ;)

Worsle
28-04-2010, 16:10
Don't listen to worsle, he doesn't know what he's on about. I love my orks, your standard boy is nearly the equivalent of a marine, but with no armor and like 1/3 the points. Trukks are fragile, but they do their job, which is to get your boyz across the table, and they're DIRT CHEAP, it's not hard to have 6+ trukks and 3+ battlewagons all on the field at the same time, that kind of target saturation makes it easy to guarantee alot of your stuff is going to get where it needs to get.

To be competitive with orks remember one word: Redundancy. Take at least 2 of anything you think you might have to rely on. Mostly because ork things dies relatively easily, but also ork stuff is, one the whole, super cheap, so you can afford to have redundant units.

Trukks are not cheap, have you look at the cost of the modern rhino or chimera? Those are cheep tanks, with all the upgrades it costs more than a chrimera and it is not that much less than one for a start. You can not call the trukk cheat by any standard, also I have yet to see any one list a transport that is any worse. I see a lot of lame excuses but no substance. Going fast does not matter when you are blown up or if you can't hold enough orks. Being cheep would work if it was cheep but it is clearly not, you even have to pay extra to tank shock too.

Redundancy is nice but you also need capable units to be redundant with. 6 trukks is not a serious threat, people should be building armies capable of dealing with mech IG and if you can't deal with an ork army like that then you can't deal with the big boys either.


Worsle, you say that people focus on things in isolation and that their theoryhammer is flawed. Well, aren't you doing pretty much the same thing?

You keep saying that Orks are no good against any player who is halfway decent, and giving examples that are situational at best. A lot of your points seem to be of the "If the Ork guy does this, then I'll do that" variety. Many things happen on the tabletop, few of which can be foreseen. You are focusing on individual units and either how much they suck or how easy they are to take out.

It is not the units themselves, but how they are used in combination with other units that make the Orks strong. That pretty much goes for any army, but is especially true for Orks. It's not what you got, but how you use it. An Ork army is greater than the sum of it's parts. You should stop trying to be an internet tough guy and making sweeping generalizations.

You have no idea what your opponent is going to try and pull on you, so saying that "Well, I'll just do this" is guesswork at best.

To the OP, Orks are a strong army but can take a bit of practice to win against good players. I've been playing Orks for years (waaaay before the new codex) and have won two tournaments in the past year with them. The last one was a 2000 point tournament, two weeks ago. I faced two IG armies similar to the 'leafblower' build. I tabled one of them and the other guy beat me by one kill point, and that was only because I immobilized my own Battlewagon with 2 consecutive 1's, delaying my rush into his line. If my dice hadn't screwed me, I would've been in his face 2 turns earlier and things may have turned out differently.

Orks are tough, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

In the 5th edition mech is king so looking at what the orks have in the way of mech and anti mech is a good litmus test. Orks don't take that much practice either, they are a very straightforward army and that is why they do well against bad lists and bad players.

Also what have I been looking at in isolation other than trukks and battlewaggons. I have just explained why the trukk is so important and the other because people think the deffa rolla is some magical fix all when it is at best mediocre. The anti tank problem is army wide and damning. The low LD and fearless problems are also army wide, the terrible shooting is army wide, the at best average combat ability of the army is army wide too.

I would consider tournament results void in our world of comp, soft scores, bad scenarios and poor organisation (if the top to players did not play each other then something went wrong). Also the fact the IG player had not killed your advance with his fire power does not make me think highly of his list.

Also internet tough guy? :rolleyes: There was a question and I answered it then people disagreed and I told them why I think they are wrong and why there arguments are wrong too. Though if I am making sweeping generlisations why isnt any one else? Why is saying orks are a terrible army any more of a generalisation than saying they are a good one? Because you agree with one statement? Is that how it works?


Orks are a very competitive list, but the codex is sloppily written so far as many of the special rules and unit upgrade options are concerned.

As to Worsle's comments, you get what you pay for, and Orks can get a lot. What is cheap points-wise you can get a lot of, and that means a ton of Boyz and Gretchin. Beyond that, there are many varieties of Ork armies(i.e. lots of different army builds) that are both competitive and fun to play. As to being mugged by experienced players, that will only happen if your army list is poorly built, you have no concept of strategy, and make poor tactical decisions. I can't speak for others, but I usually do things right, and so I only have two draws with Orks since the 4E codex came out; the rest being wins. This is not the case with other armies I play, but I do very well with them too. My Orks however are leading a charmed life it seems.

The most important thing to remember is that the Ork's Achilles Heel is, ironically enough, close combat. Once an Ork unit is weakened to the point that it is below 11 models, or is close to that number, it becomes a very vulnerable target for an assault. Trukk Boyz already start out that way, so they need back-up if they want to stick around for much longer that an assault phase or two when the enemy is determined to kill them.

Numbers are hardly difficult to deal with though. I mean other than necrons I can't think of an army that does not imply templates, large blasts or good combat (go fearless, go). Tanks are hard to kill normally but not the ones in the ork codex and really you are all really underestimating how much of a disadvantage that +1 to the damage table is. Against some orks are pretty much at an auto loss (hello immolator spam).

Also this tactics thing is getting old. A strategy is only as good as the tools you have to put to use in it. This is why orks do so terribly against good players (note good is not the same thing as having played a lot) as they just don't have the tools to keep up. Pit two similarly skilled players against each other and all things being equal the orks will lose. You need to be better than the other player to reliably beat them with orks, or for you both to be quite poor players as orks are so straightforward you can pick them up easier than other armies.

Latro_
28-04-2010, 16:21
Truks are the cost of about 6 orks
they can move 18" a turn
you can gain a 20.9" charge range from them, to deliver a potential 44 s4 attacks and 4 s9 pk attacks... yea its totally suck.

Yes if you plonk one in front of a bunch of heavy weapons it'll get blown up, any noib knows that. Its how you use it, keep it in reserve?, keep it behind cover for counter assault?, kff it, BW shield it? etc.. etc..

No its not a stand alone great transport, its very much an option to use in a support role/counter attack.

I think the jist of what you are saying is, mech is the best, orks dont have chimeras so they suck? Mech is indeed great in 5th ed, is it the be all and end all of a good list? no, that is just silly.

Argastes
28-04-2010, 16:35
To the OP: I would say you can safely ignore Worsle. He obviously has something against Orks, for whatever reason. The fact he is saying they suck while EVERY OTHER person posting in this thread realizes they are good.... well, how likely do you think it is that Worsle is the only person here who has ever actually played against a skilled opponent, and that every other poster has always played nothing but bad opponents and just doesn't realize it?

Ozendorph
28-04-2010, 17:22
We had two Ork players in our last PnP league - one played Snakebites (green tide with Warp Head) and the other Evil Sunz (Trukk mobz). Both were a nightmare to play against, and the Evil Sunz won the league.

In our 6 Doubles tournaments this past year, at least one player was playing Orks on 4 of the winning teams, with 3 of those being Battlewagon/Nobz and the other being largely Trukk mounted mobz and Lootaz.

Orks are good. This has been my recent experience.

Dakkagor
28-04-2010, 17:40
might I suggest to the OP they catch a trukk to the who loves orks thread?

WAAAAAAGH (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33080)

Its a thread that has over 600 pages of orky goodness and is still going strong. You'll be very welcome!

To Worsle, the flaws you are picking on are problems that exist with many units across the game. Weak side armour, difficulty with armour 14 etc etc.

I've been playing with the ork codex for a while now, and its brutal. The only thing that matches it in my mind is the guard, who properly built can pump so much firepower into you your lads will only be identified by their dental records.

The key with orks is to be super aggressive, plan your attack around cover and fire lanes, and to take the initiative and strangle it to death. The moment you yield the initiative to your opponent you've probably lost.

In our recent club tourny, I used a battlewagon list to hammer my way to
3rd, being pipped to top honours by a very, very jammy space marine player and my own mistakes. When I went up to warhammer world and used a wrath of kan list, I didn't see a single thing on the other tables I couldn't of beaten.

Irondog
28-04-2010, 17:42
Orks don't take that much practice either, they are a very straightforward army and that is why they do well against bad lists and bad players.

So I guess I played lousy players with lousy lists. Ok, man. You got me there. Mech IG with Vendetta support is obviously a lousy list, and the guy that played it took 'Best General' where I took 'Best Overall'. So he obviously sucks as well. There were no comp scores, and our painting and sportsmanship scores were the identical. Which means it comes down to Battle Points, and that's where I won. Your argument doesn't hold water.


The anti tank problem is army wide and damning. The low LD and fearless problems are also army wide, the terrible shooting is army wide, the at best average combat ability of the army is army wide too.

Every army has it's faults. Overcoming them is what makes you a good player. Just grabbing the newest 'uber internet build' isn't going to teach you anything. The OP is looking for some advice on how to get his orks working in 5th edition. How about you start giving him some constructive advice instead of "Orks suck!".


I would consider tournament results void in our world of comp, soft scores, bad scenarios and poor organisation (if the top to players did not play each other then something went wrong). Also the fact the IG player had not killed your advance with his fire power does not make me think highly of his list.

See my first comment for my thoughts on his skill level and his list. As far as him not killing me before I got to him? That's where tactics come in. I used cover to hide from the nastiest stuff, and a KFF to help mitigate what I couldn't hide from. There is more to Orks than just the list and theoryhammer.

Your whole argument is based on the weaknesses in their statlines alone. You make no mention of how you can mitigate the 'on paper' flaws by using 'on table' tactics. Again, not what the OP is looking for. Try giving him some advice on Orks, instead of just dumping on them.


Also internet tough guy? :rolleyes: There was a question and I answered it then people disagreed and I told them why I think they are wrong and why there arguments are wrong too. Though if I am making sweeping generlisations why isnt any one else? Why is saying orks are a terrible army any more of a generalisation than saying they are a good one? Because you agree with one statement? Is that how it works?

You copped the 'tude first, bud. That makes you the internet tough guy. Your tone has been argumentative from the start. Your argument is 'Orks suck' which is a sweeping generalization you have tried to defend. Orks can suck if played improperly, just like any other army.


Also this tactics thing is getting old. A strategy is only as good as the tools you have to put to use in it.

Getting old? That's the whole point of this thread. The OP isn't asking if the orks suck or not. He's asking for advice on playing them in 5th edition. How about we stick to the point of the thread.


A strategy is only as good as the tools you have to put to use in it.

A strategy can make or break you, regardless of the 'quality' of the tools in use. The whole point of strategy is to play to your strengths while mitigating your weaknesses. That's what makes you a good player, not your army list.

Take grots for example. Sucky unit, right? Maybe not. Stick them in the front line and go toe-to-toe with enemy and they'll get pasted. Hold them in reserve to arrive later and grab an objective and they can win you the game. Using an 'on paper' garbage unit to suddenly become a game winner is what strategy is all about.

LonelyPath
28-04-2010, 18:23
You can make almost any ork elite unit from the Ork boyz set

Tankbustas: take the rokkit launchas from the ork boyz set

Kommandos: Take the hooded and gasmask heads from burna boyz and the hooded head from the stormboyz or any unhelmeted head. Give them two knives and stikkbombs and paint them in camo colour.

Lootas: Get your hands on some heavy weapons from your friends and mix them together on normal boyz.

Ard boyz: Jaw plate and two shoulder plates.

I did the same thing for my Kommandoz and Tankbustas, so much cheaper than the metals, not to mention easier to transport. I made my 'Ard Boyz from BR boyz and a box of boyz, you get plates on the BR boys as it is and adding a few more plates you can quickly build up a mob of 20 :)

My friends hate 'Ard Boyz, they think a ork boy with a 4+ save is just cheating, but then I don't blame them, lol.

CC against Tanks works very well, I ran a few simulations today against a LR and LRC (I'll run a LRR tomorrow or friday) with the boyz in a BW. I started them both 24" apart and ran it as normal. The BW got immobilised on the frst turn, but then repaired and go to hurtle forward with theboys intact, getting in range of the LR/LRC wen the Nob managed to get at least 2 penetrating blows on assault. I only managed 1 wrecked result, but the others either destroyed alot of the weapons or immobilised it, which, let's face it would hurt a LRR greatly, as you can then just ignore it for the rest of the game, worrying only about the assault cannon (which won't do much harm against Orks).

Lootas are great fun though, the last time I faced a mech SM army I kept leaving vehicles with weapon destoryed or immobilised reults across the table, those rhinos didn;t get to do much transporting after popping 2 and immobilising the other before they got to move thanks to my Lootas. I rarely field my orks without 2 mobs of them (as I find they're very popular targets once the melees start up if the opponent can spare a turn of shooting at a long range threat).

Tenken
28-04-2010, 19:04
Also this tactics thing is getting old. A strategy is only as good as the tools you have to put to use in it.

Lol, really? Have you ever heard of Myomoto Musashi (mighta spelled that wrong)? He defeated a renowned swordsmen in a duel using a boat paddle. The other guy had a proper sword. Now tell me tactics < tools.

Or how about the battle of Thermopylae? As made famous (and exaggerated to hell by) 300. Where about 1300 greeks (about 300 spartans, and about 1000 thespians) held off the persian army at a choke point. Tactics much?

Or do you remember D-day? What could have been the biggest failed invasion in history, had in not been for excellent planning and a campaign of misinformation.

What about the American revolution? Surely you learned about that in school (at least if you're an American). Where a bunch of farmers beat the british army because they used, guess what, good tactics!!! They were out gunned and outnumbered, but because they were willing to fight in a nontraditional style (we march up to each other then shoot) they won.

What about vietnam? That was a fiasco. The greatest army in the world beaten by a tiny little guerilla force (and a general hatred for the war back home) who were vastly outgunned, outnumbered, and almost never had anything even closely resembling air superiority.

And I think Sun Tzu said something about this too. You know, possibly the greatest authority on war of all time, you've pry heard of him. He's kind of a big deal.:p

Tools are never > Tactics. Tools can help, but ultimately they don't matter. If I have a knife, and you have a bazooka, but I sneak up behind you, who do you think is gunna win that fight?:rolleyes:

And to say orks don't have the tools in the first place is fallacious. About the only armor orks have a tough time with is land raiders and monoliths. Your armor 14 front leman russ means nothing to my deff kopta who can just hop over you, shoot you in the back and then assault with a buzzsaw if need be. And it's so easy for orks to get access to str 7-8 shooting for dirty cheap. Orks have the tools to take on mech.

LonelyPath
28-04-2010, 19:23
Lol, really? Have you ever heard of Myomoto Musashi (mighta spelled that wrong)? He defeated a renowned swordsmen in a duel using a boat paddle. The other guy had a proper sword. Now tell me tactics < tools.

Or how about the battle of Thermopylae? As made famous (and exaggerated to hell by) 300. Where about 1300 greeks (about 300 spartans, and about 1000 thespians) held off the persian army at a choke point. Tactics much?

Or do you remember D-day? What could have been the biggest failed invasion in history, had in not been for excellent planning and a campaign of misinformation.

What about the American revolution? Surely you learned about that in school (at least if you're an American). Where a bunch of farmers beat the british army because they used, guess what, good tactics!!! They were out gunned and outnumbered, but because they were willing to fight in a nontraditional style (we march up to each other then shoot) they won.

What about vietnam? That was a fiasco. The greatest army in the world beaten by a tiny little guerilla force (and a general hatred for the war back home) who were vastly outgunned, outnumbered, and almost never had anything even closely resembling air superiority.

And I think Sun Tzu said something about this too. You know, possibly the greatest authority on war of all time, you've pry heard of him. He's kind of a big deal.:p

Tools are never > Tactics. Tools can help, but ultimately they don't matter. If I have a knife, and you have a bazooka, but I sneak up behind you, who do you think is gunna win that fight?:rolleyes:

And to say orks don't have the tools in the first place is fallacious. About the only armor orks have a tough time with is land raiders and monoliths. Your armor 14 front leman russ means nothing to my deff kopta who can just hop over you, shoot you in the back and then assault with a buzzsaw if need be. And it's so easy for orks to get access to str 7-8 shooting for dirty cheap. Orks have the tools to take on mech.

Alot of good examples there my friend :)

A few other notes in addition to what you made above though. The French decided to change sides and fight against the British in the War of Independence and before the Americans went to Vietnam, both the French and British armed forced had a go and pulled out deciding it was a struggle they didn't have a hope in heck of sorting out. But then, the only people truly equipped (especially mentally) for Vietnam were the Vietnamese.

Another prime example of tactics over tools is Switzerland during WW2 where the small Swiss army help up the Nazi invasion.

Worsle
28-04-2010, 19:40
Snip as this will be a long post

No I am saying the trukk is bad because it is worse than any other transport in the game. Say you want the version that can tank shock as that is not standard you are now paying more than a SM player does for a rhino. A rhino has AV11 and is not open topped the rhino is so much harder to kill than a trukk it is not even funny. A rhino gives you a wreckage if it blows up so you still get cover, a trukk can flip you back the way you came and does not give you any cover.

The lack of a good transport (ie mobility) and the lack of good anti tank (the ablity to remove the other players mobility) are two of the biggest and most glaring faults you an have.


Snip

I am sorry I would have thought we judged things on the merit of the arguments put forward not just on the number of people saying them. Apprently not though. Instead just repeating use tactics a few hundred times and you can do any thing. In fact I will just go use some tactics and have my bolters deal with all my anti tank needs. After all it is not a bad idea you just need to use tactics to make it work :rolleyes:


Snip

Ok you did not answer my question to I will just assume that yes posting a view you don't agree with is a sweeping generational. Also what atatude? The attitude of some one asked a question so I will answer it? Oh yes I am a terrible person for that one.

Why should I be giving tactics for an army I don't like? Hell that was not even what was asked for read the first post, here it is as I don't think you read it.


Where do Orks stand now in terms of builds, fun themes, and general threat level? I'm looking at expanding to 1,500 proper (no more point buffing with Nobz From Hell etc) and some guidance would be spiffing!

Commenting on the strength of the orks is very much what was asked for. However I would note I have suggested a few things for orks regardless while you have what? Just said orks are tough, I guess that helps some how.

Also keep the grots in reserve do you have some magical way of doing that? I mean unless you are cheating they will come on turn 2 50% of the time so you are hardly keeping them safe as they are not even a first turn target for most people. Want to make grots work? Well they are a cheap scoring unit for orks so that is a start. Now put them in a closed top wagon (closed top also removed the +1 damage chart roll witch is very nice) and there you have one of the sturdiest scoring units in the ork codex. That is not saying much but ork scoring units are not that amazing.

You can make a bad mech IG army you know? Just saying you are running a mech army does not make it a good mech army.


Snip

Sun Tzu :rolleyes: Ok, ok I will try and be nice but any one talking about Sun Tzu in relation to 40k, even if as eloquently as you, is being horribly pretentious. Ok so you use some great tactics with your orks but what is the other guy doing? See this is why it is tiresome because this tactics argument only works if the other guy is a sitting target. See I have never argued that a good player can't beat a worse player but if the other player is on the same level and has better tools he will win.

LonelyPath if only you could have more than one unit of ard boys. You know I am sure I rember a book where you could once do that.

GrogDaTyrant
28-04-2010, 19:53
And I think Sun Tzu said something about this too. You know, possibly the greatest authority on war of all time, you've pry heard of him. He's kind of a big deal.:p

I heard he took two of every animal, loaded them onto a boat, and then beat the crap out of them with his bare hands, just to prove he could! :D


Worsle does raise some very valid points about the Orks, namely morale and anti-tank issues. But he's very incorrect on the whole 'Orks suck' generalization. I've played some extremely good players who've ran a wide variety of lists (conventional and unconventional), and I've had a pretty decent run so far. IG haven't proved too difficult for me yet (mechanized, modified Leafblower, gunline), and marines are a pretty even match-up with the high-model count lists (50 to 70 MEQ infantry) being the most challenging to face off against.

As for what I'm running... 1750 to 2k worth of bikes. 34 warbikes (5 squads), 5 to 6 nob bikes (non WAC-ed designated distraction), a warboss (on bike), 2 to 3 deathkoptas, and Captain-Fail himself (Wazzdakka). An unconventional list that seems to be widely viewed as 'ineffective' per the wider internet community. It's very much a 'nemesis' list that performs better against certain army styles than others, with Nidzilla style, dread-spam, and Green-Tides tending to be the biggest problems). But it works, is fun to play, and isn't suited for the tactically inept.

Irondog
28-04-2010, 20:21
Worsle, if you're going to bold the original post, do it properly. Bold ALL the pertinent points. What he is asking for is 'some guidance', which you have not offered other than Orks suck!

Nocculum, head for the Who Loves Orks (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33080) thread. There are some great Warbosses there who will hook you up with some good tactics.

As for you, Worsle, you are not even worth talking to. Not sure why I bothered in the first place. Gotta love the ignore list :D

GrogDaTyrant
28-04-2010, 20:25
Another great source of Ork advice, is an entirely different website... the-waaagh.com

Worsle
28-04-2010, 20:39
Grog, you know what Wazzdakka is not as bad as you make out. He makes bikes troops and if you do that you have what is at least a sub par troop choice (not brilliant but a lot better than normal =P). Also he makes all bikes troops rather than that annoying just one squad thing warbosses do with nobs, so you can still take a big mech with a kff. http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/03/armies-in-5th-orks-part-5-summary.html See if I was to run an ork list it would be like that one. I would want a big mech so things would have to be moved around to accommodate that but other than that it is about as threatening an ork list as I can see. Still not up there with what any 5th edition book can put out or even some of the older ones but still it is not horrible.

Why is wazzdakka mr fail when he is in a list with all the other ork characters? It is not like that are amazing them selves or even as useful as he is. See this internet "knowledge" just confuses me no end, half the time I have to wonder if points are just picked at random. Nids get criticized for their lack of anti tank as I have said but what they have is better than anything orks get but orks are seen as good and nids are the bad list.

Though some one felt like posting to say they have ignored me, well I guess I should be honoured.

LonelyPath
28-04-2010, 21:26
Worsle, I am certain I also remember a time when you could take more than 1 mob of 'Ard Boys, most likely during RT or 2nd Edition when things were a little crazier. It's been so long since I looked at those books though. Ah, the good old days :)

Then again, if used right 1 mob of them is usually enough. I had a single mob of 20 hold up half a Nids army while I took apart the rest. Running over a few swarms with a deff rolla also helped.

GrogDaTyrant
28-04-2010, 21:26
Worsle, I'm all too aware of exactly what Wazzdakka does and how he affects the army. The ONLY reason to ever consider fielding him, is to run Warbikes as your troop choices. What makes him such a failure is how retardedly overcosted he is for such a lackluster Special Character. He's abysmal at shooting, and can't even hold his own in combat. If his cannon was Twin-Linked (even at 3 shots), and/or he had an invuln save, then he might be worth the horrific price-tag. But he's little more than 180 wasted points of distraction required to run a themed army that a normal bike warboss should allow for.

Wazzdakka's role in my list has pretty much been defaulted down to complete and total distraction. Many players think he's some crazy-awesome SC and will waste copious amounts of firepower bringing him down. And almost of all them are shocked when three wounds from lightning/wolf claws or from a powerfist serge kills him outright without even a chance to save.



Worsle, I am certain I also remember a time when you could take more than 1 mob of 'Ard Boys, most likely during RT or 2nd Edition when things were a little crazier. It's been so long since I looked at those books though. Ah, the good old days :)

3rd Edition codex, which lasted us up until the final 6 months of 4th ed. 'Ard Boyz were an Elites choice, 0-20 in a mob. No limitation otherwise. For the Bad Moons variant list, they were common unit and fieldable as troops if I recall correctly.

Bestaltan
28-04-2010, 21:55
.......See if I was to run an ork list........


Oop!! We have a winner!!

Worsle apparently doesn't even run Orks.

Latro_
28-04-2010, 22:11
No I am saying the trukk is bad because it is worse than any other transport in the game. Say you want the version that can tank shock as that is not standard you are now paying more than a SM player does for a rhino.

What if you wanted to upgrade a rhino to ignore stunnded results and take out tanks? it'd cost more than x. Adding upgrades till it costs more than something else is redundant.


A rhino has AV11 and is not open topped the rhino is so much harder to kill than a trukk it is not even funny.


So you are saying a rhino is better because it is harder to kill, what a one sided marine player like way of thinking about it. Can a rhino allow a unit with possibly over 50 attacks 20.9" across the board in a single turn? No? see how corss army comparisons are ridiculous.



A rhino gives you a wreckage if it blows up so you still get cover, a trukk can flip you back the way you came and does not give you any cover.

Incorrect re-read the ork codex.

On a 5-6 the passenges not only take 'no damage' but the truk becomes 'wrecked'. Slim chance of this happening? not so much when you consider you roll on this chart when you get a wrecked OR exploded result. So a truk can become a wreck if it gets an explodes result, rhinos and no other vehicle i know of can claim this.

Plus that flip can also be 3d6 towards the enemy so you can assault em next turn and a 3rd of the time it can be 3d6 in any direction you like.

Plus you get a s3 hit from a Kaboom, ok you get it more often but i'll take that over a rarer s4 anyday.



The lack of a good transport (ie mobility) and the lack of good anti tank (the ablity to remove the other players mobility) are two of the biggest and most glaring faults you an have.

It strikes me you some how think of it in terms of 12 trucks lined up against 12 chimeras with no cover or mission objectives, of course they'll get smashed to pieces anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of 40k could see that.

Ork armies as mentioned before by Irondog rely on supporting each other. Does that mean they are worse because they are not as forgiving on their own? no of course it doesn't because you can reap huge benefits from this style of play, 1+1 can easily = 5.

To say orks lack mobility please consider the following:
koptas/bikes/nob bikers: 24" a turn
Waaaagh: fleets the army a turn
Storm boyz: upto 24" move a turn and potential to DS and assault on same turn
Kommandos: infiltrate and the potential to come on from enemy board edge
truks: 18" a turn, units can assault over 20" out of them
traks: 18" a turn
battle waggons: 12", A note on these, most people take them in sets of 3 with rollas and have a mek with KFF, 3 such waggons comes to 80pts more than a land raider! THREE of them. 50% of shots at them are deflected, but you'll be fine you'll just setup so you can get at the sides lol.
weird boyz: can teleport units accross the board

Would an ork army in nothing but truks work like an IG army with just chimeras an melta vets? no it'd fall flat on its face. You marry up some units to created some synergy, use the pink thing inside your skull and say waaaghhhh and you have a force that can easily beat anything and anyone.

Solodan
28-04-2010, 22:25
Orks Suck!!!111 ... to paint.

Other than that, they are pretty darn good.

Sure, they have weaknesses, but all armies do. I'd wager that the orks weaknesses are probably less than most others.

I agree that one of the weaknesses is lame anti-tank, but I don't see that as much of a problem. Maybe for the short term, when mech lists are popular, but I don't see that happening forever. Unlike other armies, orks can pretty much field a cheaper counter unit for almost anything.

And the assertion that trukks are the worst transport in the game is hilarious!! I always get a kick out of marines in rhinos... they are so deliciously vulnerable. Lazy marines don't know how to assault out of their transport! Dolts!
Open-topped is a huge advantage for orks - we don't care about the thing exploding. It'll only kill 1 or 2 orks. It also has a really good chance to put our orks into a nice position even if it does get destroyed. A rhino blowing up does more damage to the marine unit to be sure. A rull rhino will lose 2 or 3 marines in an explosion, I believe.

Orks also have a huge advantage over other armies in that the dice don't impact our game much. When rolling large quantities of poor statlines, 1's and 6's don't change the game nearly as much as misses do for other armies. We also have redundancy - so even if my opponent gets a few good roles, odds are I still have enough troops left that I can still win a game even with a bad 1st turn.

Orks also have a nice advantage in that they tend not to be metagamed for - stuff that works well against marines tends not to work so well against orks. And you'll see more BA/SW/SM than orks most days so better bring your AP 3 weapons. Exceptions exist, of course, but for the most part odds are orks won't face too much stuff designed to take advantage of their weaknesses.

In fact, I'd say the power of mech lists actually helps us - forces designed to hurt mek probably isn't going to be that great against many ork lists.

So say whatever - orks don't play by your rules. I'll happily pick up handfuls of wounds and still win my battles because my orks are cheap, plentiful and luv to krump.

Archangel_Ruined
28-04-2010, 22:28
I'll wade in on the trukk debate. The things scare me, whilst taken individually they're decidedly poor I've yet to play a 'decent' ork list with only one or two. It's none or lots, and lots is scary. Anyone who thinks orks are lackluster in combat has obviously been fighting a different codex to me, 12 FC'ing boyz after a round of shooting will dent anything. I've seen terminator squads vanish under a mountain of dice, I can't see much standing its ground against a well timed mass boy assault and trukks are integral to this for many lists.

Oguleth
28-04-2010, 22:39
Painting orks is just one of those things you will never finish, so it does suck a bit.

Not being able to stay away from the trukk debate; I am not really that big a fan of them. Mostly due to only being able to have 12 in them, had it been more that'd be okay... Drive 18", and blow up and lose a bunch of em, and it's not exactly like 8 boyz or so is a serious threat to anything but thunderfire cannons and whatnot. Even guardsmenblobs and such is annoying; and if you run loads, it's straining on the KFF if you have it, and the easy KP bits of your list ends up getting silly. And they are dreadfull to paint :p

Argastes
28-04-2010, 22:46
I am sorry I would have thought we judged things on the merit of the arguments put forward not just on the number of people saying them. Apprently not though. Instead just repeating use tactics a few hundred times and you can do any thing. In fact I will just go use some tactics and have my bolters deal with all my anti tank needs. After all it is not a bad idea you just need to use tactics to make it work

My point apparently flew right over your head. What I was saying is that since the OP is being deluged with posters who play Orks and have good success with some (some apparently in quite competitive environments), and meanwhile he is also hearing your lone voice as the only person saying that Orks suck, he should draw his own conclusion about how Ork armies usually fare amongst the gaming community as a whole. The fact that you are the only one arguing that they're crappy suggests that your experience with Orks, however strongly it has lead you to believe that they suck, is non-representative and probably not at all like what the OP will have if he starts playing Orks.

It's not about your actual arguments at all; the mere fact that your experience with Orks is so different from that of EVERYONE else tells us that no matter how eloquently you state your arguments (and they are actually rather dubious, but I'll let others handle that), whatever games you've played against Orks must have been highly non-representative. Again, maybe that's just because everyone else is a crappy player (or plays against them) and doesn't realize it, and you're the only one who is a truly skilled player (or plays against them). Or maybe you're just full of it.

BTW, don't delete the posts you're quoting and replace them with "snip", that's quite rude.

EDIT: I never said "use tactics", so I don't know why you are trying to parody that suggestion in your response to me.

Lamoron
28-04-2010, 22:59
You never grow bored with Orks, which in my world is their greatest strenght. Even the weaker Ork builds can hold their own against pretty much anything, if you have some mad warboss skills or a bit of luck, which means you can always change up elements of your army when you wan't to model/try something new.

Worsle doesn't know jack **** about playing Orks. Trukks are exceptional units, and while they are very fragile, they can do things no Rhino will ever accomplish, on a regular basis. Trukks are rarely considered targets after they unload, but unlike Rhinos they really are. You always buy them a ram, and nothing else. They do cost 5 points more than a Rhino, but:

* They can Tankshock amazing distances.
* They are modified for rough terrain.
* They can penetrate the rear armor of most vehicles.
* They are way larger than Rhino's, blocking a lot more LoS or at least granting coversaves.
* They are assault vehicles.

Trukks are units that never let me down, because I expect them to blow up after one round of use. If they don't, then my opponent will be shocked, shot, and blocked untill he dedicates some time to handle them, and even then they do what they do best, and explode horribly right next to his units.

Trukks are great, they're just not supposed to do the same job as a Rhino.

Worsle
28-04-2010, 23:02
Grog yes he is expencive but at least he does something useful and have a fun if not that useful gimmick to his bike. It is a lot better than you can say about pretty much every other SCs in the ork codex. Calling him Mr Fail when he is surrounded by that sorry shower? At least making bikes troops is useful.

Bestaltan I am assuming you have no arguments then? Ok then I will just assume you agree with all my points or are just incapable of arguing against them.

Latro_ you listed weird boyz, you are not getting me like that I know an elabrate troll when I see one. No one is stupid enough to try and pass off a 1 in 6 chance of teleporting as a real form of mobility. Also you could have at least said warphead as then you can reroll so it might come up more than once per game!

Solodan yes stupid marines not making there low armour transport even easier to blow up, the fools. I mean every one knows adding the +1 to the damage table making even S4 hits abble to immobilize and hence render the truck pointless is all part of a cunning long term strategy the orks having going on. Just like the lack of proper anti tank weapons! I mean really those tanks have to run out of fuel one day and then it will be orks orks orks. Unless some other army without tanks shows up first...

As a side point good players will take flamers/blast weapons/good combat units (fearless is an other cunning plan if the orks kill them selves they have to have one!) and that means by by orks. You know why mech is kind now? Tanks (well other peoples tanks, just an other cunning plan from cunningham university) are hard to kill, infantry is not.

Argastes he asked how strong the orks are, something I answered. Wither I am right or not comes down to what I am saying not how many people agree with me. Also my view is just difference to people responding in this thread not EVERYONE there is a difference there too. Also the tactics thing comes down the the fact that is the argument I am getting back. Trukks are good because of tactics, now unless there is some rules witch states only ork players can use tactics it is an absurd argument. The problems with the trukks and ork anti tank (witch seems to be strangely forgotten about) and various other issues are part of the very fabric of the codex. Sure you can use TACTICS to win dispite all those issues but what about the people who can use tactics and have a good army? What do you do then?

Edit. Lamoron trukks are also a lot smaller than rhinos so they don't block the los so well. They are not assault vehicles they are open topped and this comes with a HEAVY disadvantage. They could not hit the board side of a barn and rear armour? What sort of unrealistic scenario is that? Oh and it is still a smoking heap so it is not going to do any job, unless the job was to blow up and leave what is ultimately a far to small a unit of orks to be useful stranded and having to walk. Sounds like a brillent job to me I will take 10.

LonelyPath
28-04-2010, 23:07
3rd Edition codex, which lasted us up until the final 6 months of 4th ed. 'Ard Boyz were an Elites choice, 0-20 in a mob. No limitation otherwise. For the Bad Moons variant list, they were common unit and fieldable as troops if I recall correctly.

Thanks, it's been so long I'd forgotten which edition it was in :)

@ Lamoron - I use my trukks as one move wonders myself, after that they'd done their job. Plus I've had some lucky games where they're survived passed turn 1 and got a couple of tank shocks out of them. They've worth far more than their points then :)

Of course, any Orks that make into enemy lines fomr them usually assault shootier units so the Battlewagons trailing behind can come in, roll over a few units and have their contents spill out and assault (normally 'Ard Boyz or Nobz) into ongoing combats if the Orks still alive will die in the next turn. The rest of the enemy gets shot at by as many lootas as I can bear down on them, or get hit by Stormboyz that've been lurking behind cover.

Then again, I don't do that all the time, just when my opponent thinks I'm hitting a single flank, then turn the stormboys away to hinder the other flank. 2 mobs of them can make quite the dent :)

Archangel_Ruined
28-04-2010, 23:12
What do you do to stop very fast S9 powerklaws from opening up your vehicles then? Tanks aren't hard to kill, they're easily removed from the table. Tanks are hard to deal with in numbers, there's a difference. I also don't think ork firepower is a joke, yes they're crappy shots but if you roll enough dice you'll hit something. The great things about orks is that you'll always have more dice to roll. In short, I have found the ork codex to be very good, and the orks are a strong force on the tournament scene, so it can't just be me that thinks this.

Gaargod
28-04-2010, 23:16
What about the American revolution? Surely you learned about that in school (at least if you're an American). Where a bunch of farmers beat the british army because they used, guess what, good tactics!!! They were out gunned and outnumbered, but because they were willing to fight in a nontraditional style (we march up to each other then shoot) they won.

And I think Sun Tzu said something about this too. You know, possibly the greatest authority on war of all time, you've pry heard of him. He's kind of a big deal.:p




All fairness, the British tactics of walk up and shoot (and obviously, cavalry + artillery + maneuvering) conquered 1/5 of the entire world. To say they did it well is an understatement. They were also fighting a war where it took 6 months or more to just get news back to home.

And although he didn't write a book about it, i'd like to think Alexander would have something to say about war. He defeated the Persian empire with perhaps as little as 1/100 of their troops, on several occasions. Admittedly, it all went to hell after he died, but one can hardly blame a man for that :D


However, tools + tactics + luck = win. You'd have to be fairly amazing to win with necrons at the moment, compared to IG. But obviously, tactics are extremely important - and not really something you can learn from the internet, unfortunately. You can learn ideas and specific moves, but when it comes down to it you have to try it yourself.

And back on topic...

Orks are rather awesome. Personally, i like their customizability - ok, there's a few subpar units in a competitive sense (flash gitz being top of the tree here), but you can more or less throw together an army, plonk it down on the table and expect to do well at a mid level environment. They're probably not top dog, as that currently belongs to IG, but they're hardly ineffective.

GrogDaTyrant
28-04-2010, 23:21
Grog yes he is expencive but at least he does something useful and have a fun if not that useful gimmick to his bike. It is a lot better than you can say about pretty much every other SCs in the ork codex. Calling him Mr Fail when he is surrounded by that sorry shower? At least making bikes troops is useful.

Again, the only thing about him is allowing bikes to be troops. That's it. Nothing else. For a whopping price-tag at that. His shoot while turbo-boost gimmick isn't all that fun or useful, as he rarely (if ever) manages to hit anything.

But using his one perk (which he shouldn't be required for) as a basis as to why he's better than most other existing Ork SCs, is silly to the say the least. The only ones who are actually WORTH fielding are Ghaz and Snikrot, with Zagstrukk being an arguable case provided your good with your deep strike rolls. But comparing him to the questionable likes of Grotsnik, Zogwort, and Badrukk is not an excuse to justify how awful he is. All 4 of them should be worth fielding, but they're not... so that's that.

Lamoron
28-04-2010, 23:27
I guess I'll shut up then. It has become clear to me, that Worsle, who doesn't play Orks, has FAR more insight into the workings and units of the Orks, than the 8-9 lifetimes worth of Ork gaming experience telling him, that he's a total dingbat with no clue what so ever.

Bestaltan
28-04-2010, 23:48
Bestaltan I am assuming you have no arguments then? Ok then I will just assume you agree with all my points or are just incapable of arguing against them.

Not quite. What you CAN assume, however, is that you obviously have zero experience playing an army list, and yet feel compelled to make wild, blanket statements about said list. This tells me to completely ignore anything you say, as you don't have a leg to stand on (as the fact that you stand ALONE in your arguments attests to).

In short, let those of us who actually PLAY the Ork codex rules comment on the strengths and weaknesses of that codex.

Honestly, do you even play AGAINST someone that has Orks?

Irondog
29-04-2010, 01:55
I second that, Bestaltan. Honestly, Worsle, why don't you just shut your trap since you don't know a damn thing about Orks. Let the Ork players give the OP some advice isntead of having to sit through your ramblings.

Your so-called knowledge of the codex and it's shortcomings seems to be based solely on what you've read and theorized as opposed to actual tabletop experience. Get a few games in against a solid Ork player and maybe then you'll see the error of your ways.

Argastes
29-04-2010, 02:32
Argastes he asked how strong the orks are, something I answered.

And I pointed out to him that your experience with Orks is somehow very different from that of everyone else posting in the thread, so he could probably safely ignore your answer on the grounds that it seems to stem from a highly non-representative experience. You'll notice I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to the OP. Then, seeing that I had said this about you, you apparently took umbrage, and addressed me in your post, saying that the rightness of your argument was unrelated to the number of people who disagree with it. Which is fine, except I never said your argument was *wrong*, I just told the OP that he could safely ignore you because you seem to be living in a different universe than every other person posting in this thread. Which brings us up to the present....


Wither I am right or not comes down to what I am saying not how many people agree with me.

Again, you obviously haven't understood what I said to the OP. I didn't tell him you were wrong. Nothing I am saying has to do with the rightness or wrongness of your argument. The rightness or wrongness of your argument is totally unrelated to what I'm saying to the OP.

I'm not saying: "Worsle's argument is wrong because all the other posters in this thread disagree with it." I'm saying: "Please notice that Worsle's experience with Orks, irrespective of the arguments it leads him make, is clearly unrepresentative of the experience most people have, so you can confidently assume that your experience will probably not be anything like his."

You are quite right that if I was telling him you are wrong because you're in the minority, it would be ME who would be wrong. Because, as you say, an argument's validity doesn't depend on it's popularity. But I'm not telling him that you're wrong because you're in the minority. I'm only remarking to him on the simple fact that you are indeed in the minority (a "minority of one", in fact), nothing more, and that he can draw his own conclusions from that about how representative your experience with Orks has been.


Also the tactics thing comes down the the fact that is the argument I am getting back.

Then tell it to the people who have actually made that argument against you, not to me. Because I don't have the slightest interest in actually arguing with your claims and I never said they were wrong. All I've done, and all I'm doing still, is remarking to the OP on how incredibly marginal and unrepresentative those claims are.


EDIT: Although with regard to the "tactics question" and your argument, I do think you are misrepresenting the people arguing against you. In fact I think you are being incredibly obtuse and intellectually dishonest. You keep trying to pretend like the people arguing against you are claiming that "tactics", in the abstract, will enable units to do things that they aren't actually capable of. You've set up this strawman parody of the opposing argument and then made snide and unconstructive comments like "HURR WELL I GUESS "TACTICS" WILL LET BOLTGUNS BE GOOD FOR ANTI-TANK, RIGHT GUYS??" Or "Well what happens when the other guy uses tactics too, and has an army list that actually doesn't suck?!"

The reality is that people have mentioned tactics because to a large extent, your criticisms of the Ork army list have focused on specific shortcomings of specific units, when anyone who actually plays an Ork army (which you apparently don't) will tell you that the Ork list, more than many others, depends on synergy (or proper coordination, or whatever you want to call it) between multiple units in order to minimize the shortcomings of each individual unit. THAT is what people mean when they say "tactics", they are not just claiming that somehow playing "with tactics" instead of "without tactics" (as if there's such a thing) will magically enable Ork units to penetrate AV14 with S4 weapons or whatever.

Again, I'm not really interested in actually debating against your argument; other posters can do that perfectly well. But I can't help noticing how dishonest and obtuse your efforts to advance that argument, and especially to attack the counterarguments, have been.

Solodan
29-04-2010, 04:20
I've just returned to Warhammer after a hiatus of about twelve months. Whilst I've kept my Orks (which is 1,000-1,500 depending on configuration) I've not had the chance to play more than one game of a reasonable size in that time. I'm eager to get back into the foray, but there's been several armies released since and the game's shifted no doubt.

Where do Orks stand now in terms of builds, fun themes, and general threat level? I'm looking at expanding to 1,500 proper (no more point buffing with Nobz From Hell etc) and some guidance would be spiffing!

Getting this back on track - I think the best post from above is that orks are still basically competitive and never get old.

I rotate between green tide, nob bikers and cult of speed builds, and they each play very very differently. I feel that once I get these things painted, I'll have as much versatility as the guy who has one army of marines and 3+ codices. And I still have to get a few battlewagons or kans yet - so that I can try aspects of the army that I haven't yet been able to taste.

Orks are also fun because there is just so much you can do outside of playing - I can't think of any army that is as much fun to model. You can scratch build things, kustomize, use crazy and unique color schemes, and use any bitz from any army to make most anything. Almost any way you go, your army will always be individualized to you. Can't say that about marines or IG.

Irondog
29-04-2010, 06:09
Exactly. My favorite part of the Orks is that you can do no wrong when converting them. Not so with other armies. For example, if you're converting and Eldar tank, you need to keep the sleek lines and stay with the whole Eldar style or it'll just look weird. Orks on the other hand, if you want to have a bunch of Deff Kopta pilots wearing beanie caps with propellers on them, it'll work. Or a looted tank with a big slingshot firing looney-tunes style bombs as the payload, that works too. Go nuts with the Orks, because... well, they're nuts!

Nocculum
29-04-2010, 07:45
Thanks everyone, although I wasn't planning on it turning into such a little flame war.

I have to say, that in my solid year of playing post the Ork book I did a damned sight better than with Eldar (pointy eared gits!) and I've had a hoot playing them. Already back in the game and I'm looking at sticking to my steamrolla 'Ere We Go list:

2X Trukks with 12 Slugga Boyz
1X Trukk with Shoota 'Ard Boyz

1X Wagon with 15 Burnas
1X Wagon with 6 or so FNP Klaw Nobz (nothing in the game survives an assault from these!)

15 Stormboyz

10 Lootas
20 Grotz (Grot Shield!)

Etc etc.

I'll scoot on over to the suggested threads and see wot's 'appenin' boss!

Latro_
29-04-2010, 08:11
@Worsle i mentioned them in one line and i'm a troll haha what about the swathes of other stuff i wrote which you just simply ignored, some of which you have ignored twice now. Including your lack of knowledge of the rules.

You are one of those posters that ignores replies if it doesn't support your argument, and i also wont be responding to you again because its simply just a waste of time.

shabbadoo
29-04-2010, 09:39
Well, Worsle is sorta right. Orks do suck. I beat Orks with my Orks all the time. :D

In all seriousness, Orks are fun list to play, with a variety of units and army builds to choose from.

sorienor
29-04-2010, 10:07
Trukks are overpriced *now*, I agree. When the Ork Codex came out the Rhino was 50pts, not the 35 it is now and that was a fair price difference. That does not make it the worst transport in the game. And yes, 12 orks are very effective and a threat to a majority of units out there, especially if they are 12 'ard boys.

To that end, pretty much any complaint on cost is simply irrelevant. It would be more accurate and useful complaining about the cost of Devilfish and Wave Serpents.

The Marshel
29-04-2010, 12:07
as far as comparisons of the rhino and the truck goes, i feel the need to point out:
what does a rhino do? it gets the marines to the enemy, after that, anything more you get out of it is just bonus really
what does a trukk do? same thing but quicker.

most games you're only gonna start 24" apart. the truk can cross 20" easy. once the ork boyz are in the front lines, they are in the front lines, thats it, truk has done its job, it can go blow up now for all anyone cares.

also, in one of my first games against orks, i went first, blew up a truk full of meganobs in my first shooting phase and it ended up blasting forward and blowing up right in front of my land raider. I realise this is situational, but would someone please point out any other transport that can blow up first turn, without even having its own movement phase and still do its job?

Nocculum
29-04-2010, 12:41
I believe also, that the maximum assault range of Ork Boyz from a Trukk is:

14" movement (Red Paint Job)
2" Disembark
6" Assault

For a total of 22" withou the Waaagh!

You can get up to 28.5" with creative placement and rolling a 6 for Fleet distance.

44 STR4 attacks to the face from that range is precisely why Orks are effective. Even 33 attacks + PK from Nob from Shoota Boyz (with 24 shots to the face as well) is a sheer thrill to possess!

Dribble Joy
29-04-2010, 12:53
14" movement (Red Paint Job)

13", RPJ is only +1".

Trukks are still cheap and while open topped doesn't help with damage, it's more than made up for with the capacity to assault after moving and the better destroyed results (depending on you point of view).

Plus you can take 72 boys in trukks with PK nobs and a few bits of gear with an HQ in 1k points. Add lootas and whatever else you want for 1.5k.

Or do what I do and run a DeffWing :D STOMP!
(Though don't go anywhere near mech-vet-guard with it, you'll die horribly.)

Latro_
29-04-2010, 13:45
Its 20.9" with no RPJ
21.9 with RPJ

and
21.9" - 26.9" / 22.9" - 27.9" respectively with waaagh in effect.

But you know, coming on from your own board edge from reserve untouched an potentially being able to assault something past the middle of the table is completely rubbish, ask worsel ;)

Nocculum
29-04-2010, 13:49
Bad math, the point is the same :D

DuskRaider
29-04-2010, 14:50
Alright, first thing is first... The Trukk, for what it does, is actually pretty damn good. You can assault on the first turn with one of these, depending on setup.

I'll agree with Worsle on one point, and that's anti-tank. Orks have no anti-tank, especially against AV14. Yeah, Power Klaws, DCCWs and Deff Rollas can get the job done, but it requires you to be in melee, which you need to survive long enough to make it to. Zzap Guns are completely unreliable, and when our strongest weapon is STR 8 AP 3, you can kind of tell there wasn't much thought put into this.

That being said, I've won most of my games with my Orks. I have only recently had problems with the new Tyranid codex, but this may be chalked up to just fighting a force that's completely different from what they used to be. Hive Guard are a complete nightmare against Trukks.

The thing I love about Orks is, there's so many different themes and combos you can take that are actually quite effective. Dread bash is a nasty one, and with two KFFs you can absorb a ton of fire before you slam into your opponent's line and clean up.

senorcardgage
29-04-2010, 15:40
Plus you get a s3 hit from a Kaboom, ok you get it more often but i'll take that over a rarer s4 anyday.

I don't understand what you mean by this. I don't think it's possible for the trukk boys to take a S4 hit...

Argastes
29-04-2010, 15:55
I'll agree with Worsle on one point, and that's anti-tank. Orks have no anti-tank, especially against AV14. Yeah, Power Klaws, DCCWs and Deff Rollas can get the job done, but it requires you to be in melee, which you need to survive long enough to make it to.

But the only real threat in the game that's AV14 all around, and thus not vulnerable to side/rear attacks from fast, high-mobility, S8-weapon-carrying units like rokkit buggies/traks or deff koptas, is Land Raiders (Monoliths too, but Land Raiders are FAR more common). In my experience playing Orks, a Land Raider is only really a major threat when it itself is heading TOWARDS melee, to fire it's close-range antipersonnel weapons and disgorge hard assault troops, so it's not really as hard as you are suggesting to get to melee range with one.


Zzap Guns are completely unreliable, and when our strongest weapon is STR 8 AP 3, you can kind of tell there wasn't much thought put into this.

I disagree, I think the Orks' lack of S9-10 ranged weapons reflects a DELIBERATE design choice, not a failure of the designers to think about what they were doing.

Irondog
29-04-2010, 15:57
I don't think it's possible for the trukk boys to take a S4 hit...

They can't, other than getting shot with a bolter :) The only way an Ork in a transport can take a str 4 hit is if they're riding in a closed-top battlewagon or looted wagon when it goes up... and honestly, why the hell would the be riding in a closed-top vehicle in the first place.

And I agree with Argastes, can you imagine how much people would be bitching if Orks had some awesome ant-armor abilities vs AV14 in addition to all the other goodies they have.

Nocculum
29-04-2010, 15:58
They do have anti-tank, anyway, they're called Tankbustas for a reason.

Just because an Ork doesn't fire his rocket at a tank, and instead prefers to bludgeon it to death with a rocket hammer, doesn't mean it's not present in the army list ;)

Worsle
29-04-2010, 17:45
Bestaltan you are engaging in a ad hominem attack here rather than engaging the points I have raised. Really what does this mean no one can say necrons are week because they don't play them? This is an argument that is not used on any issue that is supported by warseer. I can spout off all I want about tau being crap without playing them because that is the warseer endorsed view even if it is a load of tripe. You know what I am not going to answer you question because it is nonsense. So fell free to pat your self on the back for such a wonderful argument, though I find it funny how I am ment the internet tough guy.

Argaste exactly you are saying my arguments should just be ignored because more people are saying orks are good but not because I am wrong? You know what I am just going to move on.

Ok lets make this simple with an example. Lets say army a has S6 guns and army B has S3 guns. All other factors are equal who wins? Army A has a clear advantage over army B but luck or tactics could win but the closer the two players are in skill the less and less likely it is for player B to win. This is my point it is not a strawman it is just explaining why saying "use tactics" is a terrible argument. The fact you have the worst transport in the game/terrible anti tank/below average shooting/mediocre combat ablity that comes at the cost of your only good anti tank unit lootas or forces you to buy to warbosses and robs you of the change to get a kff/simply terrible SCs/ect does not go away when you "use tactics" and when the other player "uses tactics" too you fill find your self squeezed out of the game just like army B.

Latro_ you mean the swathes of stuff you have repeated. I have already explained why they trukk is terrible and you just go and repeat that it is good and even list it in your mobility section. Really I would have ignored you for simple repetition if you had not listed the stupidest idea possible. Get your mobility randomly generated power you can't even guarantee will come up once per game let alone when you need. So either you are trolling or you are abjectly horrible at the game. You know what I would rather believe you where trolling me than some one thinks that is a good idea.

Also when you are hold up most of the argument your self (there has be the odd point of almost support but they have gotten ignored) you will miss points. Either because I skimmed over it when reading all 5 posts I am responding to, did not feel like answer it it again as I have already addressed it or have addressed something similar to a previous poster or what ever else.

sorienor no trukks where always over priced because they are just terrible, really people need to put up or shut up here. Name me a worse transport than the trukk, hell start naming vehicles in general that are worse than the trukk as it is a very small list. Oh and as to the price in relation my I direct your attention to the CSM book and the DA book and the idea that the orks where made ready for the 5th edition. No the trukk came after the transport price cut not before it and even if it did not it still would not excuse the fact it can double in cost though upgrades and still be useless.

Also the tau and eldar transports might be expensive but at least they are survivable and are not blown up by a strong breeze.

The Marshel oh no terminators without an invulnerable save are attacking, this is not scary at all. Though you miss the point what does a rhino do? Keep its passengers safe and move them about. What does a trukk do? Nothing it was already blown up and left this pointlessly small looking ork squad walking. Yes I know that the trukk can move fast but you know what does not move fast a destroyed transport and you know what transport is easily destroyed? The trukk.

Argastes again I see. You know something can be a deliberate design choice and still be a massive failure on the designers part. These are not mutually exclusive in any way. The ork anti tank would be something of both.

Nocculum tankbustas are horrible and take up slots a perfectly good loota squad could be using. Also melee is still not a good way to take out mech unless you are putting out a lot of attacks and are a fast unit. Fiends can do this for an example (please just because I am using some thing as an example does not mean I automatically thing this is the be all and end all or it is the lack of fiends that make orks terrible, just to head of some conclusions people might be jumping too) they are cavalry can chase tanks down rather than being lead around by them and importantly put out a lot of attacks. You want to take out a tank in melee you need to put out a lot of attacks, also you need to be ready for the fact you are standing right next to what ever was in that tank.

Ok as a general point any one who is saying no orks are great I never lose with them. Stop and think about that for a moment. If you have a very large win to loss ratio then some thing is up. Odds are it is opposition, might sound mean but if you are playing players of a similar standard to your self you should never have a win ratio like that no matter how good your army is unless the other guy is gimping his army in some form or an other.

Nocculum
29-04-2010, 18:59
Speaking as an individual who has to date done the following:


1. Lone assaulted a Monolith with a single Slugga Boy Nob and killed it in the combat phase; nothing like KRUMP to start off a game of 40k! (The Nob is now with his own name too, Gertrude The Juggler).

2. Taken out 3 Broadsides, a Pirahna and commander suit in a single game with a lone Buzzsaw Dekkopta (this was my genius moment, he's now called Harry The Klappa!)

3. Destroyed a double Lash Prince CSM army in a tournament environment game on turn 2 to the extent that he conceeded, with these 'terrible trukks' you speak of.

4. Formed a conga line of 4 trukks lined up sideways and advanced my entire horde across the field under a cover of scrap metal, and then unleashed footslogga horde into the ranks (people should try this, it's hilarious.

I would several suggest you don't compare one unit in one army to a similar unit in another. Whilst points transitions and general designing faults can be analysed, contextual understanding is the most important aspect of theoryhammer. An apple is a fruit, and so is an orange, but they are so different it's pointless calling them both fruit at all.

You also keep commenting on 'needing lots of attacks' or not being able to kill anything. This is a seriously flawed argument, and I feel you know it is. 12 Boyz optimum, when mounted in a trukk, delivers 44 Strength 4 attacks to the face. With a power klaw, you have slightly less, but Strength 9 instead. There are other units which can do this, of course there are, but how many can do so for 162 points, have 13 T4 wounds and of course, consolidate back into the trukk to do the same again.

I don't think I've ever had a game where all my trukks survive, of course I haven't, few people end the game with all their vehicles intact regardless of their armour values. Sacrifical units are paramount to a proper strategy, and I never see Trukks as anything more than the cheapest, quickest and most effective way to get my boyz into combat.

What you do with the trukks after that, be it suicide ramming, mobile screening or picking up straggles to keep them up with the rest of the army is entirely up to you. But there is, without a shadow of a doubt, 101 uses and reasons that Trukks will remain one of the most effective transports for their cost and their synergy within an army for a while to come.

EDIT:

I'm naturally omitting the simple fact that you can assault out of a Trukk, and you cannot do that from a Rhino - this is a MASSIVE benefit.

Latro_
29-04-2010, 19:04
2009 UK Grand Tournament results:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/wh40ktosgt-final-mkii-r6.pdf

In the top 50 there were 14 ork armies, more than any other army. 6 of those were in the top 15.

In that top 15 only 4 armies had access to rhinos.

Ya right Worsle i take it all back, orks are rubbish. They cant even do well in the biggest tourn,, oh hang on.

Jericho
29-04-2010, 19:59
Yup that sounds pretty terrible to me :D

GrogDaTyrant
29-04-2010, 20:03
But the only real threat in the game that's AV14 all around, and thus not vulnerable to side/rear attacks from fast, high-mobility, S8-weapon-carrying units like rokkit buggies/traks or deff koptas, is Land Raiders (Monoliths too, but Land Raiders are FAR more common).

...

I disagree, I think the Orks' lack of S9-10 ranged weapons reflects a DELIBERATE design choice, not a failure of the designers to think about what they were doing.

Land Raiders and Monoliths do tend to be the 'biggest problem' tanks to deal with, but the threat behind the Land Raider isn't the overpriced glorified transport itself but rather what it's carrying. Add in the problem that there's no shooting options for us, and you basically have to throw a sacrificial-play at the thing, hope you immoblize/destroy it (most likely with 6's to hit), and let the unit get charged and demolished by whatever was inside the thing.

On another note, AV 13 is 'killable', but it's not easy. Str 8 is as high as our ranged weaponry goes, giving us a meager 16.67% chance to penetrate with any given rokkit or rokkit variant weapon (kmb/kannon). So even 3 Warbuggies/Deathkoptas with TL Rokkits to the side armor of any given Russ will only have a 27% chance of scoring a single penetrating hit. When compared to a single BS 4 Meltagun within 1/2-range, which has a 42% chance, that's pretty abysmal. Now when you factor in that all of our ranged will typically be hitting the front or side of such pillbox tanks, and even AV 13 can present some problems. Indeed the low rear AV of the Russ, Hammerhead, and Predator/Vindicators is pretty much what balances the fight to an even level (despite possibly needing 6's to hit).


While I agree that it was most likely a deliberate choice to skimp on the Ork's anti-tank options, it was a bad one on the dev's part overall. I believe that when the Ork codex was being written, the complete overhaul to the vehicle damage table for 5th probably wasn't fully outlined yet. Further, it probably wasn't correctly analyzed as to just HOW badly they nerfed the Zzap Gun into the 'non-useful' zone. With a single given grot-manned Zzap Gun having only a 4.9% chance of actually scoring a Penetrating hit to AV 14, and then factoring in it's expensive upgrade cost, I think it becomes pretty clear that they weren't bothering to figure the odds behind the weapon. IMHO rolling to hit was more than enough to balance the thing, but it needs that 2d6 armor penetration.

What I personally find interesting however, is that in Apoc none of these 'no anti-tank' issues exist. Orks have plenty of Str 9 and 10 weapons on their super-heavies and Apoc additions. So I think their decision on the Deathrolla was more of an 'oh crap, they REALLY need something!' than a 'Ramming = Tankshock!'.

Ozendorph
29-04-2010, 21:09
2009 UK Grand Tournament results:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/wh40ktosgt-final-mkii-r6.pdf

In the top 50 there were 14 ork armies, more than any other army. 6 of those were in the top 15.

In that top 15 only 4 armies had access to rhinos.

Ya right Worsle i take it all back, orks are rubbish. They cant even do well in the biggest tourn,, oh hang on.

LOL Case closed. Orks are win, to think otherwise is folly. Not every army needs Railguns or Vendettas to be effective.

HK-47
29-04-2010, 21:27
What are peoples thoughts on the Green tide themed army? The idea of putting 100+ Orks on the table sounds interesting but I'm not sure how they play, and I would imagine that painting all those models would be a hassle.

Bestaltan
29-04-2010, 21:36
.......no one can say necrons are week........


Nah. Necrons aren't week. That's because they usually take Sundays off.

Ozendorph
29-04-2010, 21:37
What are peoples thoughts on the Green tide themed army? The idea of putting 100+ Orks on the table sounds interesting but I'm not sure how they play, and I would imagine that painting all those models would be a hassle.

Painting is brutal, and play is slow so it's not good for a timed environment. Interesting army when you stick a Warp Head in there for Waaaagh and Ere We Go powers (careful of cluttered tables though). Also good with a strategically placed KFF covering a couple 30-Ork mobz. Great army for taking and holding objectives, because typically nothing can get close enough to contest with all the Boyz surrounding.

Damien 1427
29-04-2010, 21:46
Painting is brutal

Yes, yes it is. Oww, oww, my human hands, oww. It'll be worth it just to drown Beakies in a sea of green.

GrogDaTyrant
29-04-2010, 21:46
What are peoples thoughts on the Green tide themed army? The idea of putting 100+ Orks on the table sounds interesting but I'm not sure how they play, and I would imagine that painting all those models would be a hassle.

Works good. I recommend supporting it with KFF Meks, as they have the strongest overall impact on your survivability, and because Warpheads are so unreliable, pathetically easy to kill, and excruciatingly easy to shut down (Runes Warding, Pyschotic Hoods, Shadow).

The Green Tide firebase works exceedingly well, also. 4 or more units of Shootas, supported by KFFs, with a Grot screen or two to absorb charges and offer up 4+ intervening cover, makes a nightmare for your opponent to deal with by conventional means. You have the model count and survivability to weather him down in a war of attrition, and the ability to handle most non-deathstar CC units (and even those it can often out-last). Plus any powerhouse unit charging in a land-raider, is probably going to hit the grots first... which you want. This pretty much means the grot squad runs before your turn, leaving the offending unit high and dry.

The Green Tide also works well when combined with the Dreadbash (9 Kanz and up to 2 Dreads). As mentioned though, high model-count lists tend to not be very 'tournament friendly' due to time constraints. It is possible (if you've got your movement down pat) to speed up your turns however. I wouldn't try much more than a 120-count army in an RTT or GT.

As far as painting goes... you're all sissies! :) If you must speed it up because you can't handle painting horde armies, then do block-color foundations (1 coat, no hilights or layering) and wash everything in Devlan Mud. Hell if you're really lazy, spray the Devlan Mud on them with an air gun. In my case, I find painting hordes of Orks quite relaxing. They're full of character, are fun to paint, and it's something you can do while watching -insert favorite movie here- for the 30th time. Plus the reaction from your opponent when you slam down a 120+ model, fully painted Ork army complete with with layering, hilights, washes, and weathering/dust is awesome! There's a sick joy I get from my opponent's reaction as he realizes not only is he facing off against an army that's 3 to 4 times larger than his, but it's painted far better too!

LonelyPath
29-04-2010, 21:52
What are peoples thoughts on the Green tide themed army? The idea of putting 100+ Orks on the table sounds interesting but I'm not sure how they play, and I would imagine that painting all those models would be a hassle.

If you get Dawn of War deployent and win the roll-off you're in trouble. I know that sounds weird, but trust me from experience. The painting side of things is a nightmare. However, despite what peopel may tell you, moving all the miniatures is not that bad and it's not that hard to play. Many of my games have been based on the green tide list and I've had a good success run in regard to the win-lose-draw ratio.

HK-47
29-04-2010, 23:13
Thanks everyone for giving me such great advice, I'm defiantly going to invest in the army when I get the money for it.

LonelyPath
29-04-2010, 23:18
I hope you enjoy playing the army as much as I enjoy playing mine :)

BobTheZombie
29-04-2010, 23:23
Thanks everyone for giving me such great advice, I'm defiantly going to invest in the army when I get the money for it.

I started Orks about this time last year I think, and I've had tremendous fun with them. I love the quirky stuff like the Shokk Attack Gun, which is great fun no matter whether the result is good or bad. I don't set out to make ultra-competitive lists (I leave that to more skilled players), but I tend to win more than I lose and have great fun whilst doing so. Good luck with the army, I hope you enjoy playing Orks as much I do.

EDIT: Ninja'd by LonelyPath. Great minds think alike, or something.

GrogDaTyrant
29-04-2010, 23:35
Thanks everyone for giving me such great advice, I'm defiantly going to invest in the army when I get the money for it.

Good to hear! I highly recommend the Orks, especially if you want something vastly different from the 'norm'. They're fun, have a large varieties of possible army builds (all of which are good), and can be downright brutal if played right. Out of every army in 40k, Orks are the one that has kept me playing 40k for the past decade. The only other army I've been remotely interested in has been IG, and I keep telling myself I may get around to that... eventually. Maybe next year.

Tenken
30-04-2010, 00:28
Thanks everyone for giving me such great advice, I'm defiantly going to invest in the army when I get the money for it.

Welcome to da waaagh! Orks are just so much fun, on the table and off. I'm sure you'll be pleased.

Also green tide can be GREAT. I usually field something similar, but with a unit of nob bikers (for heavy hitters). 90+ boyz on the field can really make your enemy pause. I even outnumbered a nid army the other day, it was great.:D Course he had like 4 MCs or something.

Dribble Joy
30-04-2010, 01:11
I think the Orks' lack of S9-10 ranged weapons reflects a DELIBERATE design choice, not a failure of the designers to think about what they were doing.

It is. It CLEARLY is. I don't really have a problem with it either. I'd almost (though not necessary personally completely) agree with it.

The problem is not even Russes or other high front armour value vehicles. We have enough units to deal with them, even with shooting (scouting deffcoptas on the rear). Landraiders are the killer. Ever other army has reliable AV14 busting capacity outside of combat, or the CC assault units they have that can deal with vehicles aren't pussies when it comes to the contents of those raiders.
Sure a unit of nobs can rip apart a raider, but will then get gutted by whatever is inside, who don't care that their transport is gone, because it's job is done.
Deffrollas being FAQed helped, but no beakie player with any sense will leave his precious raider within 13" of one.
A lack of ranged anti-tank as a definitive aspect of an army style is fine. A complete lack of half decent ranged (read AV14) anti-tank is an over-sight. I wouldn't care if it was horribly over-priced, I'd just like it to be there.

It may sound ranty, but this is more down to the thorough yawn factor of raiders. 14/13/12? Fine, I'd be OK with that. 14/14/14? Chalk it up with the 'beakie fanboi factor' along with storm shields and all-strengths-no-weaknesses-Lysander.

Solodan
30-04-2010, 02:42
Orks are great BECAUSE of no anti-tank too. Sure, it may hurt now and again, but sometimes it also gives great stories to play with.

First one - landraider tried to get across a river, and failed its difficult terrain test. Yay - terrain is ork anti-tank!! Rest of game was spent shooting 6 point boyz with its STR 9 guns hehe.

Second one - running zoggy as my HQ. Was able to melta a landraider on turn 2 with his psychic attack - and it blew straight up!

Yea, normally those things mess me up, but in half the games I play againts landraiders, dumb ork luck wins the day!

acme2468
30-04-2010, 03:26
Land Raiders don't Bother me a Bit, since any marine list that has one in it perforce has too few marines in it to have any chance of surviving when My Line of Killa Kans and Boys Crash into them.

Worsle
30-04-2010, 11:18
Latro_ so you are saying if you point to one tournament you can use its results instead of a proper argument regardless of the lack of context you give to it. Also did you look at some of the other armies that placed there? 2 of the top 3 armies are CSM and a guy using the old nid codex placed higher than the best IG player. Am I really meant to take these results seriously? That and 40k tournaments do not as a general rule give any useful info, to much wrong with the tournament scene for that. I can also clearly see from the results than pretty much none of the top ranking players could have played each other in the last round, how am I meant to take that seriously?

Oh and while you are telling me I am wrong aout that I would like to point out I was using the rhino as a base standard. When I am calling the trukk the worst transport in the game I am meaning EVERY other transport is better than it.

Also I though you where going to start ignoring me? I do like how you and irondog tried to claim the last word and how you where not going to respond to me yet keep on doing it. That is bad form is it not?


Nocculum hey I could list a whole bunch of unlikely thing that have happened to me and you know what? It still would not matter at all. Yes luck is involved in this game but that is far from all this game takes. So any argument based of luck is just silly.

I was saying you need a lot of attacks to destroy a vehicle in melee, where you even reading my posts? A single power claw is not a lot of attacks in melee by any measure and when you can't rely on one hit you can not be expecting to take out a vehicle in melee, unless you just rely on blind luck. Also those 44 attacks are still only swinging in at I3 if you get the charge, so you will be take hit before you get to swing or at the same time. Also you need to a at full strength after your trukk has blow up you can't rely on that. Also if the other guy is in a transport you have to knock and hope he opens up. Also better hope it does not explode as you will likely come of the worst from that. But hey if we ignore all that 44 S4 attacks orks, orks, orks!

While I don't like comparing units from one codex to an other as a general rule for the trukk it is kind of a special case. When you can say some thing is categorically the worst transport and very close to being the worst vehicle full stop in the game something is very wrong. Also there is no use for the trukk after it delivers a squad because even if it is unlikely enough to get to where it is going it will still blow up in a strong breeze, as it is AV10 and has a +1 on its stupid damage chart. Oh yes and I the only one who remebers red paint is not free, well done you have made it cost even more.

Oh and any one keeping it in reserve, well done you have just split up your individually pointless ork squads and made them even easier to deal with. Congratulations your medal is in the post.

Also apples and oranges are very comparable http://improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html both are fruit and if you can't compare one type of fruit to an other you are just not trying hard enough or have never been to the shops.


Solodan orks are great because there anti tank is blind luck and mistakes the other player makes? What sort of double think is this? Why would any one use a normal land raider? More importantly why would the run it though difficult terrain early in the game? What is going on here? More weird boy nonsense? I think my head is starting to hurt :(

You can not rely on blind luck or other players bad decisions to do anything. Though even if you did how is this any different from any other army? Did I miss some memo about orks being given a monopoly on luck?


Edit. Also can some one please explain to me why nids are called out for having terrible anti tank but the orks are not? Nids have better anti tank than orks too but it is nids that people complain about. Do people not see that?

Eotheod
30-04-2010, 13:31
Ok so, I'm a newb to 40k... but even I can see that different armies have different focuses - and no army is meant to be the best in all areas(what would be the fun in that?).

It seems to me like Worsle wants all units to fit into the mold of a(n) [someone with more experience insert unit/army name here - maybe SM?], and since orks don't, they are sub-par.

Of course orks suck in a couple of places. So? If every army didn't have an achilles heel or two, everyone would play said army, or no one would be playing 40k at all, right?

VonManstein
30-04-2010, 14:08
Worsle actually has some points, although many people here dont want to see it. He overreacts a little though, they dont suck; wouldnt call them top tier either.

Orks have 1 big problem: very straightforward. Orks generally do not have the iniative, in the sense that they dont control the game. You generally cant really decide how to play with the list; the list decides how you play with it... This probably sounds a little abstract but is very true.
What I mean with this is: You have your list; and it plays the same against every oponent. You dont have really a lot of choices of how to play, this is because of the big weaknesses Worsle told earlier: Fearless or bad Ld, easy to destroy vehicles and close range anti tank. Indeed you need to overcome those really big weaknesses in each game; which limits the way how you can play. There is simply a limit on how much skill influences an Ork army; skill has less of an influence. With numbers I would explain it like this:

Performance with a scale of 1-10:
Ork army with a bad player, awesome list: 6
Ork army with an awesome player, awesome list: 8
Other army with a bad player, awesome list: 3
Other army with an awesome player, awesome list: 10

I hate to give personal anecdotal 'evidence' as its generally not worth much but the 3rd Battle in this battlereport (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253931) gives an example of what I mean.

The codex itself however is not one sided: you can make a lot of different lists, which work relatively well overall. The invidual lists itself play pretty much the same every game though... A little bit comparable with Land Raider Rush lists: they play practicly the same in 90% of the games too.

Fun army: to many people yes. The 'real hardcore' gamers however I noticed getting bored with Orks pretty quickly though...

Latro: Please stop using that UK GT as an example, that tourney is like a bad joke. The lists in that tourney is generally in the rest of the world regarded as sub-optimal: such lists almost never perform well in other parts of the world, simply because they are not optimal. Also a single Tourney never says much, but in the case of the in my opinion weak UK tourney scene it says even less.

Worsle
30-04-2010, 14:13
Eotheod if you want to insert an army there any 5th edition book would do. After that though there options are limited eldar, tau and witchhunters are all fine enough and daemonhunters is fine if you can accept the fact it leans heavily on the IG side of things. There is sub par and then there is not having the golf clubs to play the game, orks fall into the later category.

Solodan so you are not defending your little no anti tank is good anti tank bit then? Ok then why are you saying?

Ok yes I did read the original post he wanted to know how fun and how good orks are, I chose to answer the later part. Why? Because how fun an army is a hard question to answer when you have no idea what the other player like. You don't like IG? Good for you but plenty of other people do so. So who is right there? Well no one and as it is not a quantifiable subject nor is one I care to comment on. Also if you noticed the thread already had people saying orks are a great army so why aren't you telling them they are off topic? Oh because you agree with them, yay for hypocrisy!

Also you know what if people want to have tournaments filled with soft scores, painting scores and poor organisation for a competitive result? Good for them, I really don't care. I might disagree with them and the logic there but I am not going to say you can't do it. You know what I do disagree with? People telling me tournaments filled with all those problems are competitive and how there results are oh so telling about the state of the game. Give me a break. You think any other competitive environment would let the opposition effect the other sides score? No because it is stupid. You can't enforce sportsmanship like that and instead it just allows for a whole other spectrum of cheating to be involved. You still want to play like that? Go ahead just don't expect other people to give a damn. Or how about a system where the top 3 ranked players clearly never played each other, wouldn't that be awesome? Or no it is not and it means if one guy lucks out and gets the harder draws while the other one gets it easy that decides the tournament not who is the better player. You can have fun doing it just don't expect the results to matter to anyone else as they don't.

Edit. VonManstein I don't think overreacting is the correct term. I might be some what silly at points but I am not overreacting =P

Mentat
30-04-2010, 14:36
Worsle:

You don't like soft scores? How about the Ard Boyz tournaments?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=4&aId=9500009&start=5

I pretty sure there are no soft scores in the Ard Boyz tournaments. I can't vouch for the quality of the players though, maybe all the good players were busy posting on Warseer during the qualifiers.

There were 14 Ork armies brought to the 2009 Ard Boyz in Chicago (that means more than 1 in 5 armies were ork armies), and 6 of them (thats almost half) placed in the top 20. 8 of them placed in the lower 44. Not bad considering they have the worst vehicle in the game (?!?!).

They are also a fun army to play and a fun army to play against.

Need I say more?

Worsle
30-04-2010, 15:02
Oh look it is the leafblower, ok I think I am going to skip over that particular can of worms. Ok but simply single tournament results don't tell you much. To pick a random sporting example Rodger Federer got knocked out in the second round of the French masters so by this look here logic I should think he is what? He can't be world number one clearly. Also after all my talk about the best players not playing you show me a 3 round tournament where there is no way that could ever happen? Seriously there are to many problems with the current tournament scene to tell me the results form it mean anything.

Really I am calling the bluff here name me a worse transport than the trukk. Or you know don't as I already tried that and no one even manged to name a worse vehicle than the trukk so I can only assume you are considering that point.

Latro_
30-04-2010, 15:07
You said all things being equal orks would loose out with equally even skilled players.

I provided you statistical evidence that this is not the case from a grand tournament made up of the resulting final players of 3 heats, representing hundreds of players and likely thousands of games.

No the orks didnt 'win' it, that was not the point. The point was they had the lion share of being in the top 50 after all of that.

So... all things being equal, like the games needed to win through at the heat stage and then even after that further games in the final! the majority of the armies in the top 50 were orks.

But no you just write tournaments off as a way of measuring armies, I guess you know more than gamesworkshop game designers then because thats exactly the data they draw on.

VonManstein
30-04-2010, 15:18
Oh one thing which might also be a reason why Orks perform so well:

Dice.

They throw so much generally, that their performance generally doesnt suffer from some bad dice rolls.
Every other army out there generally has some bad dice rolls during a game: this doesnt matter when you are up against other armies normally because they have it too. However if Orks are the only army who dont have this... Yes then it does have influence.

Note: I'm not talking about bad luck or anything, just a couple of bad rolls which statisticly comes up in every game. (you fail some of your 3+ saves, failing 3 out of 4 isnt really bad luck, yet it hurts the Marine player. Orks failing 10 out of 10 isnt bad luck either; but they dont get hurt by it, every save they do make is a bonus. Just an example. Same with close combat: lots of crappy attacks, so much that generally you dont deviate a lot with orks which means they almost never underperform when assaulting or shooting. )

Latro_
30-04-2010, 15:22
Oh look it is the leafblower, ok I think I am going to skip over that particular can of worms. Ok but simply single tournament results don't tell you much. To pick a random sporting example Rodger Federer got knocked out in the second round of the French masters so by this look here logic I should think he is what? He can't be world number one clearly. Also after all my talk about the best players not playing you show me a 3 round tournament where there is no way that could ever happen? Seriously there are to many problems with the current tournament scene to tell me the results form it mean anything.

Really I am calling the bluff here name me a worse transport than the trukk. Or you know don't as I already tried that and no one even manged to name a worse vehicle than the trukk so I can only assume you are considering that point.

Worse for model capacity?
A rhino
Worse for speed?
A monolith
Worse for what???

You are talking about worst 'overall' and its ridiculous as what makes a truk worse overall for you does not mean its the worst transport in the game, its your opinion which isnt shared by the majority of this thread.

Plus your Rodger Federer answer just further proves how detached you are from reality. Yes he could go out first round, but what if there were 100 Rodger Federer's playing against 100 Andy Murray's and 100 ... you get the point.

Do those 100 Rodger Federer's all go out the first round? no you'd see some of them getting into the top 50... just like the ork example. So you can reason that orks are not rubbish as you makeout.

And lets look further at some of these results. As posted ard boys:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=4&aId=9500009&start=5&amp;_requestid=403629

How many dark eldar and necron armeis do you see?

UKGT 2009
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/wh40ktosgt-final-mkii-r6.pdf

How many dark eldar and necron armeis do you see?

These ARE two armies that are in their current codex books... underpowered, most would agree on warseer and oh look it's totally exemplified in both of these tournament results.

Worsle
30-04-2010, 15:33
Latro_ and you proved all things where equal how exactly? Oh and I did say against bad players/bad lists orks will do well and even without seeing the lists that tournaments results does not bod well for the lists.

I may or may not know better than GW in this aspect and they may or may not already be taking problems like that into account for all I know. Or it really matters for that matter. However I notice you go for the ad hominem method of attacking me for being arrogant rather than trying to prove what I said was wrong. Wither or not I am arrogant does not impact wither I am right or wrong, neither would how good a player I am or any thing else not related to the arguments at hand.

Also worst vehicle full stop, don't try and act cute now. Also 100 Rodger Federers? What? I don't think you thought that one though also he was not even playing Andy Murray it was Ernests Gulbis who knocked him out.

Also most people would not agree that dark eldar are bad. They are really good at low points levels they just don't scale nicely to ard boys because of the age of their book. They are also not seen much because not many people play them because of the model range and age of the rules. Also if we flip your argument you can clearly see the worst dark eldar player did a lot better than the worst ork player. What does that tell us? Nothing of any consequence to anyone.

Hypaspist
30-04-2010, 15:33
Worsle.

I believe that your assessment of the Trukk being the worst vehicle/transport in the game is not based on sound analysis.

The mobility of the trukk, and the fact that for 5 points it can tank shock with a front armour value of 12, and re-roll difficult terrain tests, gives it a large amount of flexibility in an all-comers list. (and the 1/36 chance of actually immobilising is why you go straight through terrian on turn 1, because it is the most direct, and fastest route, and the risks of immobilisation are negligible)

a Trukk is fragile, yes, but fragile doesn't mean rubbish.

That same aspect of the trukk which means it receives +1 on the damage chart also allows it's cargo to charge after disembarking, to all shoot if it has moved < 6", and to only receive a strength 3 hit upon an explosion rather than strength 4.

It is virtually impossible to wreck/trap the occupants of a Trukk, something that is easy to do with most 1-access point vehicles (of which there are several)

I agree that Trukks have a low life expectancy, but I don't think this is a reason to invalidate them.

You do not seem to like Trukks, (which is fine) but I do not believe you have analysed them properly in order to produce a sound conclusion.

As an example, when comparing to a Rhino, which has:
Trukk +
All Trukks occupants can fire (Rhino has one fire point for two bodies)
Trukk is an assault vehicle (Rhino is not)
Trukks can move 18" (Rhino's limited to 12")
Trukks inflict strength 3 hits on occupants (Rhino's inflict strength 4)
higher strength, higher range basic weapon (Big Shoota)

Transport Neutral
Both have rear armour 10
both are the same points cost (in most codices)

Rhino +
11 front and side armour (Trukk has 10)
Can self repair
Better Ballistic Skill.


I may have missed a few, but this represents the crux of the differences between the two vehicles, the above comparison seemse reasonably balanced. we could potentially do this with every transport/vehicle in the game. However, to Cite the Trukk as the worst transport and/or vehicle in the game without reasoned debate, would be I think, unfair.

I'd also contest that the Trukk is not a worse vehicle than the penitent engine, which is an open topped walker, suffering from Rage, that costs more than double the cost of a Trukk. (It has it's advantages of course, but nevertheless you asked for an example, and I have provided one for us to debate.)

:)

VonManstein
30-04-2010, 15:34
Edit. VonManstein I don't think overreacting is the correct term. I might be some what silly at points but I am not overreacting =P
I'm pretty sure that overreacting is the correct term. Because their army has some problems doesnt mean its a bad army overall. Orks have a fine codex with many Tier 2 builds if you want to talk in Tiers. Like Latro_ pointed out, calling every tournement BS is BS in itself. Orks perform pretty okay worldwide on a wide range of tournements, not just the 2 Latro_ mentioned. Maybe you only know bad Ork players? Are you a bad Ork player yourself maybe who wants to believe his playing with an underpowered army? Is your view so narrow that some disadvantages mean to you: complete crap?

You focus too much on negative thinsg and overgeneralise on them:

'Worst' transport in the game: even if this is true, that doesnt mean its actually bad. Just worse than the others. Because Soda tastes better than Water doesnt mean water tastes bad.
But even if they really suck, Orks can play without them anyway and still be effective.

Also:

However I notice you go for the ad hominem method of attacking me for being arrogant rather than trying to prove what I said was wrong. Wither or not I am arrogant does not impact wither I am right or wrong, neither would how good a player I am or any thing else not related to the arguments at hand.
You should put quotes around this in your post too, trying to act smart by using something which comes from someone else is fail. Full stop.

Latro_
30-04-2010, 15:46
The tennis example you gave was 'an individual' my point was if you cloned that individual 100 times and pitted him again 100 other versions of other high ranked tennis players would he loose out totally? No, since he is a a decent player the other 99 versions of him i'm sure would do better and rank high

Its exactly the same thing with the orks, loads of varying players playing loads of varying players a significant number came out on top. Were the heat players 'bad'?, maybe.
So lets go to the finals where the players will be of a better standard, again they do well.

And i'm not getting 'cute' how is it the worst? define worst for me please.

No one plays dark eldar because of the models? lol ok.
What about necrons? I gues they dont appear high up in the ranks cus of models too right?

nothing to do with both codex's being underpowered and out of date? no, no of course not because if that were true the fact so many ork armies appear in tournaments and rank highly overall would mean they're not underpowered and out of date. Say hi to leonardo and kate for me.

@Hypaspist access point blocking does not always trap them inside, since you have emergency disembark.

Argastes
01-05-2010, 02:15
Argaste exactly you are saying my arguments should just be ignored because more people are saying orks are good but not because I am wrong? You know what I am just going to move on.

I think you probably should. Not just from my posts, but from this thread in general. But with specific regard to my posts, I've explained it as clearly as I can, but you still don't quite seem to getting it. It's not about your arguments at all. Let's say, just hypothetically, that your argument is actually 100% correct. I would STILL be telling the OP he can safely ignore you and safely assume that his experience with Orks will be very different from the picture you are painting, because the fact that you are the ONLY one singing this song shows how unrepresentative your experience with Orks is or has been (for whatever reason). Because even if your argument is actually 100% correct, somehow the overwhelming majority of people responding here have still had experiences that lead them to view Orks as good, if not great, on the tabletop. Ultimately that overwhelmingly positive review is of far more use to the OP than your solitary nerdgasm about how trukks are the worst vehicles ever.

I really don't know how to make this any clearer. You seem hell-bent that because you think your argument is correct, you deserve to be agreed with and no-one should say that you should be ignored. It just doesn't matter whether your argument is right or wrong; right or wrong, it clearly doesn't intersect with most Ork players' realities at any point whatsoever.

If the only thing you can say to this point is still "But Argaste you are just saying that my argument is bad because not a lot of people agree with it," then you still don't understand and you should probably stop responding to me because understanding the import of my point is probably beyond you.

warpoet
01-05-2010, 02:19
So I think it's safe to say that, judging by the comments here, you ork newbies can identify one of the great facts about the greenskins:

Ork players love orks.

That, to me, is a really telling, important fact about the orks as an army. People who play them love them. Even when acknowledging ork weaknesses, ork players defend their green buggers to the ends of the earth.

So something must be right about the orks as an army.

I play orks. I love my orks. Yes, I get tired of renting out a U-Haul trukk to transport my army anytime I play a game of more than 1,000 points, but just when I think I am ready for something more compact, Waaagh! Balgrot pulls me back in.

I have six headless base-coated Emperor's Spears on my worktable right now. The blue looks lovely. I am so happy I finally got it right and working well for me. I am looking forward to throwing together a Razorback.

Tonight, I assembled a unit of ten Nobz, right in the faces (figuratively speaking as they have no heads yet) of some of the Emperor's finest. Why?

Because I love my orks.

And the wheelbarrow they roll-up in.

Bestaltan
01-05-2010, 03:11
Out of curiosity Worsle, what armies do you play? And are there any Ork players you play regularly in your local gaming club?



Because I love my orks.

And the wheelbarrow they roll-up in.

True Ork fanatics would have the wheelbarrow converted into a gargant to boot.........

warpoet
01-05-2010, 13:48
True Ork fanatics would have the wheelbarrow converted into a gargant to boot.........

Not quite, but my car is green . . . .

Dribble Joy
02-05-2010, 00:17
Not quite, but my car is green . . . .

Bah. Thou shalt endeavour to acquire a vessel of opaque substrate veneer to which one should apply to thine vehicle as to render it in a suitable spectral range in order to attain the desired increase in it's potential velocity.

Mosedeke
02-05-2010, 03:31
I've just started playing with my orks a couple weeks ago after shelving my IG for a bit (started them half a year before the new codex came out as my first army. I've gotten tired of 1/3 of the armies at every tournament I go to being IG).

I must say that I absolutely love the buggers even after a few games. Running a Kan heavy Green Tide list and it's been a blast. Planning on making them Deffskulls and filling them to the teeth with as much looted equipment and bitz I can possibly...liberate from my fellow players.

Though all you guys talking about the joys of biker and trukk lists is kinda making my wallet cry out in terror as I contemplate doing that too.

Firmlog
02-05-2010, 03:57
Orks are definitely the new black of 2010. At my local shop about half the players this year are orks. This is quite disappointing to me as I started Orks because I thought no one else really played them. I prefer to play armies that are uncommon I guess.

Not only are many players using orks, they seem to be doing quite well with them. Last game night an ork army was dominating a ultramarine army until the player did the "why not" move and tank shocked a ork nob biker squad and sent it fleeing off the board the rest of the game due to some unlucky leadership roles. It was the turning point. However, they do seem to do well generally.

Riddum
04-05-2010, 20:26
Regardless of it's usefulness, I'm dying to produce a tank + wagon assault army with a sick ork character.

While being totally noob about 40k

I wonder if people around here play ork much, hopefully not.