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View Full Version : No models for New Monsters. Does it make sense now?



Shimmergloom
27-04-2010, 21:22
If rare % is 15 or 25% does it make sense now that HPA, Cygor, Gorgon, Jabber and the like didn't get models?

Seems like it does make sense now.

Asher
27-04-2010, 21:24
What sense does it exactly make?

Sounds like a whooping big conspirancy.

bigcheese76
27-04-2010, 21:28
I really cant see how it makes sense to release rules for something but not a model for it. Im still not sure why GW do this.

loveless
27-04-2010, 21:32
Im still not sure why GW do this.

So they have something to release later for a given force.

It's a way to keep excitement going for a race after the initial book relelase. It also encourages you to buy multiple kits of things from GW in an effort to convert such a big gribbly.

Agnar the Howler
27-04-2010, 21:32
It makes some sort of sense. Why bother creating a model that people can't use in smaller games? From a financial perspective I can see why they haven't done it.

Malorian
27-04-2010, 21:59
I don't understand why whey wouldn't release a model for something people would want to buy no matter what the restrictions are...

Bingo the Fun Monkey
28-04-2010, 02:01
I don't understand why whey wouldn't release a model for something people would want to buy no matter what the restrictions are...

It probably has to do with the high initial costs of making a plastic kit that won't sell in great quantity, while at the same time having a company decision to halt the production of large pewter kits.

Shimmergloom
28-04-2010, 04:47
Yeah. Notice how many of the more recent big kit plastic models are less effected by the 8th rumors.

Most common game types are 1500, 2000 and 2250.

Giants are unaffected at 1500, can still get 2 in at the others if it's 25% rare.
Stegadons are mounts, specials and rares. So if you can't use your 2 eotg's, you might start seeing more special choice stegs.
Doomwheels look unaffected.
Furnace/bell kits can still be used, It's just unlikely to see both in the same game.

HPA's can't be doubled at 2k or 2250, regardless of if it's 15 or 25% rare max.

Cygor's, gorgon's and jabber's are all in the same army, none can be doubled no matter what the % is, in normal sized games and so the ability to sell any of those models are limited. Hence just ignore making models for these models, until a future book comes out which can decrease their points like the new Hyrda, which dropped like 30-40pts when the new DE book was released.

Of all the plastic kits, only the dragon seems to be affected. However, it's ironic, because of all the monster hammer of 7th, dragons are the only ones that seem to have kept their 6th edition restriction of costing an extra hero slot to use.

Talos
28-04-2010, 09:11
I like that there arnt models for these creatures. It means you have to convert them. I know some people hate converting but if every Hell Pit Abomination was the same that would suck. With people having to make them each one is different.
I really hope GW dont make a Hell Pit Abomination

ashc
28-04-2010, 09:13
Yeah, I talked with a friend over the phone last night about this, GW have moved to reserving more model releases to stagger their models and release 2nd and 3rd waves to drum up further interest in the army at a later date, as opposed to blowing the whole lot in 3 months and not releasing anything for 5+ years...

Bueno
28-04-2010, 09:47
The problem being that sometimes armies need a massive all in one release because they simply have so many models that need re doing. Although it is good having more new models coming out in the future to look forward to i suppose

Spiney Norman
28-04-2010, 09:55
What sense does it exactly make?

Sounds like a whooping big conspirancy.

Actually I think he's right.

If the designers knew that very soon the rules would change so people could only take a max of one of these big monster types in their standard 2k lists because of the pts restrictions. Spending a lot of money developing a kit for a large monster when each player can only field a max of one (and will therefore only buy one) might have made them reticent to do it, esp for Beastmen where you can only field one out of the three.

Urgat
28-04-2010, 10:03
I really cant see how it makes sense to release rules for something but not a model for it. Im still not sure why GW do this.

Because it's going to be released at some point anyway. It took a while for the goblin boss on giogantic spider to come, but he eventually did. What you rather they do, rules and models now, rules now and models later, or nothing at all? It's not like they can release a whole range of models with every new armybook.

Avian
28-04-2010, 10:16
Another reason not to release models for everything is that they can check which units gets fielded (and which would therefore sell) before they spend the money on putting it into production.

For this reason, I suspect it might be a good while before we see Chaos Forsaken, for example, and they will almost certainly not be a plastic kit. If the rules had made them must-haves and everybody started converting Forsaken from other kits, I'd bet we'd set a kit soonish.

defunct
28-04-2010, 10:20
It does make sense.
At the same time we have the opportunity to see many great conversions.

If GW wanted to support monster models somehow, they could release a monster bitz bag or something. With all new parts that would fit many monsters like HPA or Abyssal Terror. :)



Yeah, I talked with a friend over the phone last night about this, GW have moved to reserving more model releases to stagger their models and release 2nd and 3rd waves to drum up further interest in the army at a later date, as opposed to blowing the whole lot in 3 months and not releasing anything for 5+ years...
Yah, that Vampire Counts wave with Black Knights included better come soon.:D

Tokamak
28-04-2010, 10:36
Another reason not to release models for everything is that they can check which units gets fielded (and which would therefore sell) before they spend the money on putting it into production.


Or simply in which quantity armies are bought. The reason space marines and space orks got so much love is most definitely because there are lots of people playing them so that means whatever model you make for such an army it will sell.

Beastmen has gained a big revamp, is almost a 'new' army which means you can't predict how successful it will be and thus GW is more careful with spending resources on it.

Tymell
28-04-2010, 10:41
Personally, if GW have new ideas for units/monsters, I prefer to see them released with the book rather than sitting around doing nothing for years until a model can be made.

For the record, there's a difference between a "whooping big conspiracy" and a business plan.

Asher
28-04-2010, 10:45
Actually I think he's right.

If the designers knew that very soon the rules would change so people could only take a max of one of these big monster types in their standard 2k lists because of the pts restrictions. Spending a lot of money developing a kit for a large monster when each player can only field a max of one (and will therefore only buy one) might have made them reticent to do it, esp for Beastmen where you can only field one out of the three.

And they still made things like the Stompa. Sure, it's 40k, but the issue is the same. It can only be used in 3000+ games by one specific army; and yet they released a damn big plastic kit for it.

(not to menton that stompas are probably the no. 1 scratch-build vehicle in all of warhammmer, hence even fewer people will buy it)

Sand
28-04-2010, 10:45
Cygor's, gorgon's and jabber's are all in the same army, none can be doubled no matter what the % is, in normal sized games and so the ability to sell any of those models are limited. Hence just ignore making models for these models, until a future book comes out which can decrease their points like the new Hyrda, which dropped like 30-40pts when the new DE book was released.I really don't think that's the reason. After all they made the book right now, so if they wanted to go that route they could just have put their points 30-40 pts. lower straight away.

I think it's likelier that they're biding their time on them, perhaps to see if anybody uses them at all.

Gaargod
28-04-2010, 11:00
Nope, just business plan.

Look at it this way: The cygor is fairly easily converted from the giant kit - so effectively, they already sell cygor models.

The ghorgon, hellpits and jabberslythe are more awkward BUT people are lazy. They will most likely either
a) proxy with another model (i.e. heavily converted giant for ghorgon) or
b) build their new one out of an existing model(s) with greenstuff. The number of people who will actually go to another website to buy a model there is fairly small i would imagine. Therefore GW still gets money from those models/greenstuff.

Not a lot of people actually go to other websites to buy their models - for a start, they're not cheap.


Yes, if GW made a dedicated kit to each monsters, more people would buy it. But, does that extra bit of money counteract the cost of making it + the money they were getting before from conversionists?

If they really want to make money, they should do as defunct suggested, and just make a decent monster bitz kit. A decent set of wings would be very useful, as would other generic gribbly stuff.

Droneman
28-04-2010, 11:36
designers note* Ftw...

sorberec
28-04-2010, 11:40
Another reason not to release models for everything is that they can check which units gets fielded (and which would therefore sell) before they spend the money on putting it into production.


Not quite sure how that works. Do you mean they get the store guys and the guys running their tournaments to take notes of what people are using?

Doesn't sound like a very reliable way of doing it to me.

In the local GW store...
Store staff member:Hmm, little Timmy is playing against Johnny over there with the Ultra Filth Army of Doom and he isn't using the Uberjabbergorgon, best let HQ know

GW HQ.
Senior Product Manager: Uberjabbergorgon isn't being used, best not make any kits for it. Shame we wasted all that time creating the rules for it.

Meanwhile, back in the store...
Johnny: Hey, why aren't you using a Uberjabbergorgon?
Timmy: They don't make a kit for it.


Ok that's a bit flippant, but not everyone wants to go out and convert models, particularly not GWs target market which are young kids/teens who have pester power on their side to get their parents to buy everything for them.

rtunian
28-04-2010, 12:55
what do you get when you combine spore creature creator with warhammer? no, it's not sporehammer, it's this:


If GW wanted to support monster models somehow, they could release a monster bitz bag or something. With all new parts that would fit many monsters like HPA or Abyssal Terror. :)

and i am all in favor of it!

Lord Malorne
28-04-2010, 13:05
I really cant see how it makes sense to release rules for something but not a model for it. Im still not sure why GW do this.

Because they only have a certain amount of time and resources contrary to what people think, I prefer them to do the rules for something then release a mode at a later date, as opposed to not making the unit and model at all simply because they are unable to release a model at the same time.

N810
28-04-2010, 13:06
Perhaps Forgeworlds fantasy division is planing on making these instead..?

sorberec
28-04-2010, 13:53
Because they only have a certain amount of time and resources contrary to what people think, I prefer them to do the rules for something then release a mode at a later date, as opposed to not making the unit and model at all simply because they are unable to release a model at the same time.

While I do agree to that in theory, as long as the gap between book and model release isn't too long, it's a shame that GW's practice seems to differ. i.e. releasing updates of models in splash releases when there were already models to begin with (i.e. Greatswords, Stank) yet not stuff that has been around awhile in the books with no model (Seekers of Slaanesh?)

BigbyWolf
28-04-2010, 14:22
Because they only have a certain amount of time and resources contrary to what people think, I prefer them to do the rules for something then release a mode at a later date, as opposed to not making the unit and model at all simply because they are unable to release a model at the same time.

Whilst I am ok with this I do get a little frustrated that some things take a long time to be produced.

I can understand that some things (Abom, Forsaken, War Shrine, Cygor) are fairly simple to cobble together from whatever bits you happen to have lying around, therefore do not really have priority.

But, on the other hand you have the majority of the special characters from the WoC book which are still waiting for a model (not that I'm advocating the use of SCs...I just really, really want the Throgg and Kholek models!) These things, as with the Jabbergor and the Gorghon, are a bit more specific than the others and therefore would not be easy for the standard gamer to make/ convert, and not everywhere allows proxies.

What I think would be good would be definite "second-wave" release dates, for every book. Say, for example, they bring out a new book for Ogres in May, and the second-wave is confirmed for being either 6 months (or more realistically 12 months) from the release date of the army book.

yabbadabba
28-04-2010, 14:38
Its a combination of things.

1) GW want further sales of each army. Having 2nd and 3rd wave releases allows them to drum up those sales both in the target armies, and other armies as a reaction to the release. This also includes supporting possible hobby products.
2) Quality control - some models might not have made the cut in time for the release, so get put back for the second wave
3) Practicality. GW might have some gorgeous models which need a bit more time and research as to decide the material format (plastic/metal) and construction (convert an existing kit, make a new mould for the whole thing)
4) Some stats are too good to resist so there will be a very small sales reaction to that for conversions, which GW might want to cash in on, but that is highly unlikely and more of a bonus from the "wave" release structure.
5) Market reaction - if an army sells below expectations, other releases can be bumped up to maintain the sales tempo, and those underperforming armies will have their 2nd wave piggybacked onto a more popular army instead of alone.

Plagueridden
28-04-2010, 15:08
well, to be honest it still is strange to me.
releasing an armybook with certain troops, characters.
and then not releasing some of the above mentioned.

dwarfhold13
28-04-2010, 15:33
Whilst I am ok with this I do get a little frustrated that some things take a long time to be produced.


this is exactly what they know already... when you get frustrated and are still buying up the rest of the army, they can wait 2 years to release a figure, then poof, out comes "______" and you have to have it because you've waited so long to get one.
plus it's human nature to not be able to resist shiny new toys.
Jon

BigbyWolf
28-04-2010, 15:48
well, to be honest it still is strange to me.
releasing an armybook with certain troops, characters.
and then not releasing some of the above mentioned.

I don't think it's a case of GW never releasing the models, in fact I'm sure they will...eventually. Personally I think 12 months after the release of a book is enough time to get a few miniatures churned out, TBH a little longer would be ok too, but what I'd really like would be an actual time-frame for the releases. I know they like to keep the release dates pretty close to the chest for new books etc, but I don't see the harm in an annual list advising on when they are planning/hoping to release certain miniatures.

For example, I've got a certain old troll that I use as Throgg. If I knew that 6 months down the line they would be releasing a model of him, I can continue to proxie and just wait for him. As it is I do want an actual model that looks different to the rest of the trolls (and close enough to his artwork), so that leaves me with the temptation to convert my troll into Throgg, but that's time I could be spending painting/ modelling the other piles of miniatures that I already have laying around.

I know it might seem like a fairly small gripe to have...but it's my gripe nonetheless...;)

Spike Fiend
28-04-2010, 19:38
Well, the reasons that you discuss may be fair enough... But you really must admit that it's damn annoying for them to remove the old Seekers of Slaanesh without making new models. Also, what is the reason for making two Steam Tanks in one Edition when so many people cry out for new models for Dark Riders, Black Knights and so on??? :wtf:

yabbadabba
28-04-2010, 19:45
Well, the reasons that you discuss may be fair enough... But you really must admit that it's damn annoying for them to remove the old Seekers of Slaanesh without making new models. Also, what is the reason for making two Steam Tanks in one Edition when so many people cry out for new models for Dark Riders, Black Knights and so on??? :wtf:

Thing is, while from the outside it appears annoying, from the inside there are probably reasonable reasons. Foremost is GW putting off releases for 2nd and 3rd wave sales opportunities. Then you have issues with production and availability, questions of quality, delays in production runs, holding back models to benefit later, slow sales periods. The list goes on. Also with the Seekers, you could have had a broken mould, or the casting was too ruinous for the rubber etc.

While many would prefer to put it down to gross strategic incompetance, when you think about it seriously there are plenty of sensible reasons. Finally, you could always write a letter ...

ChaosVC
29-04-2010, 09:46
How about this thing which has to do with "When 8th ed comes out with the rumoured rules, sales for Godzilla and King kongs will drop, ultraman will be out of job."

Orktavius
29-04-2010, 19:37
ON top of giving you options for converting models they don't make which many people enjoy (hell that's all one guy at my local GW does, doesn't paint or play, just converts) there's also the financial constraints. From what I've heard GW can only objectively afford to make a certain number of new sprues a year, add to that the fact that many "monsters" would only see limited sales if released and you have another good reason why for every unit they make rules for there is not a unit.

N810
29-04-2010, 19:48
Yea all those poor stegadons and skaven bells kits siting on the shelf :(

Orktavius
29-04-2010, 21:42
Obviously they still want to release cool models when they can, but you shouldn't expect that every time a codex comes out they will just release a model for every bloody unit.

Plagueridden
30-04-2010, 12:02
Obviously they still want to release cool models when they can, but you shouldn't expect that every time a codex comes out they will just release a model for every bloody unit.



why not?
other companies seem to be able to do so.
or within a rather short reasonable timespan.

Xarius
30-04-2010, 12:04
i feel that as much as some of the new big things in the codexes are cool, they are just scraping the barrel, desperate for 'cool new stuff' to put in as opposed to creating balanced, useful units.

Some things I will never expect models for.

Urgat
30-04-2010, 13:46
Well, the reasons that you discuss may be fair enough... But you really must admit that it's damn annoying for them to remove the old Seekers of Slaanesh without making new models.

The new ones are done already. But maybe they realised how crappy they are, and have decided to redo them again? Heh, one may fantasize a bit, no? :p

Shimmergloom
30-04-2010, 18:06
Yea all those poor stegadons and skaven bells kits siting on the shelf :(

But notice that stegadon's are character mounts, special and rare choices. Their sales will likely not be hurt despite any % that come up. Cause the models can just shift.

The bell is also a furnace. So even if you can't fit but one into an army now, you still need to buy 2, to get both versions of the model.

Spike Fiend
30-04-2010, 18:14
The new ones are done already. But maybe they realised how crappy they are, and have decided to redo them again? Heh, one may fantasise a bit, no?

Eh? Have they made new Seekers? Do you have a picture?


Thing is, while from the outside it appears annoying, from the inside there are probably reasonable reasons. Foremost is GW putting off releases for 2nd and 3rd wave sales opportunities. Then you have issues with production and availability, questions of quality, delays in production runs, holding back models to benefit later, slow sales periods. The list goes on. Also with the Seekers, you could have had a broken mould, or the casting was too ruinous for the rubber etc.

I see your point, but I still don't get why they made two Steam Tanks in 7th... Why?!

By the way, (I know this is a new question, but it seems quite relevant, doesn't it?) does anyone know when Games Workshop are going to release the new Daemon Princes that they showed in the Warriors of Chaos Army Book? :confused:

yabbadabba
30-04-2010, 18:22
I see your point, but I still don't get why they made two Steam Tanks in 7th... Why?!

>Because they could
>Because it sells well (particularly as it is one of the few truly threating Empire units)
>Because it was part of a wave release, so was planned that way
> Because it is a safe kit for a trial - so maybe next time around we would see a plastic Black Coach, or maybe Plastic Hellcanon
> Because the metal kit sold well, but had become un-economical so the gamble has been taken on a plastic version, so they could drop the metal one
>Because the metal mould was on its way out.

Just a few ideas.

VonUber
01-05-2010, 03:03
I think this is down to the only having 1 person to skulpt all the monsters for all 3 core systems, not fair to give them a huge work load now is it?