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Mojaco
29-04-2010, 09:25
All the loyalists are dead, nearly dead or missing (dead). The surviving traitor primarchs all became daemon princes.

However, Magnus is part of the Thousand Sons, and they had this nifty little spell cast over them; the rubric of ahriman. Preventing and IIRC reversing mutations among the psychic members of the Thousand Sons, that should leave us with the single surviving original Primarch.

True of false?

Lord Damocles
29-04-2010, 09:29
False.

Magnus is a Daemon Prince too.
('Index Astartes: Masters of Forbidden Knowledge [Thousand Sons]' in White Dwarf 267, pg.29)

castellanash
29-04-2010, 09:34
as stated by Lord Damocles, Magnus becomes a daemon prince too, hence the ending of A Thousand Sons when Ahriman looks onto the new Magnus with disdain.

Iuris
29-04-2010, 10:27
Magnus was a demon prince even before teh Rubric, IIRC. Anyway, given his portrayal in A Thousand Sons... I don't know how I'd differentiate a Pre-demon Magnus with a demon Magnus...

Londinium
29-04-2010, 10:41
If I wanted to be pedantic I'd state that the Khan, Lionel El' Johnson, Dorn, Corax, Russ and Vulkan are not conclusively dead and Guilliman definitely isn't dead, although by default.

Very few Primarches are actually definitively dead, namely Horus, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus with Night Haunter and Alpharius described as dead in some sources but hotly debated.

Tymell
29-04-2010, 10:42
Magnus, Angron, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar and Fulgrim are all daemon princes.

though Fulgrim is actually possessed technically speaking

Alpharius, Horus, Konrad Kurze, Guilliman, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, Rogal Dorn and Lion El'Jonson are dead. Yes, they are: Guilliman was frozen on the very point of death, and no he can't recover within a stasis field. Dorn was found dead.

Vulkan, Leman Russ, Jaghatai Khan and Corax went missing and haven't been heard from since.

So anything from 6 to 10 primarchs survive.

Londinium
29-04-2010, 10:45
Magnus, Angron, Perturabo, Mortarion, Lorgar and Fulgrim are all daemon princes.

though Fulgrim is actually possessed technically speaking

Alpharius, Horus, Konrad Kurze, Guilliman, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, Rogal Dorn and Lion El'Jonson are dead. Yes, they are: Guilliman was frozen on the very point of death, and no he can't recover within a stasis field. Dorn was found dead.

Vulkan, Leman Russ, Jaghatai Khan and Corax went missing and haven't been heard from since.

So anything from 6 to 10 primarchs survive.

He's in the rock very much alive, hangin' with the Watchers in the Dark

Tymell
29-04-2010, 10:49
He's in the rock very much alive, hangin' with the Watchers in the Dark

What's the source? I'm dubious simply because almost every primarch has a "they're still alive!" myth, some are more believable than others :p

Londinium
29-04-2010, 10:52
What's the source? I'm dubious simply because almost every primarch has a "they're still alive!" myth :p

I'm not a massive Dark Angels fan so I'm not entirely sure on the source, perhaps Angels of Darkness or one of the older Codexes (Codices? whatever) but it's fairly well known. Some DA fan will probably pop by and put to shame my knowledge with an exact page quotation but he's definitely in the Rock along with Luther. Apparently he's been sleeping for the best part of 10,000 years, which is the lamest excuse out of all the Primarchs for not doing anything.

Sai-Lauren
29-04-2010, 10:53
Plus Magmus had a daemon prince model in 2nd edition Epic (alongside Fulgrim, Angron and Mortarion).

For the traitors, what about Omegon (or Alpharius, depending on which one Calgar really killed)?

As for the loyalists - missing does not necessarily equal deceased.

Londinium
29-04-2010, 11:00
Plus Magmus had a daemon prince model in 2nd edition Epic (alongside Fulgrim, Angron and Mortarion).

For the traitors, what about Omegon (or Alpharius, depending on which one Calgar really killed)?

As for the loyalists - missing does not necessarily equal deceased.

Depends on oh so many factors. First of all was that really Alpharius/Omegon or just some plant? personally speaking I believe this was, the Alpha Legion fanboys that state it wasn't ignore the fact that Guilliman would be able to tell whether the dude he was fighting was his brother or not. Considering the control Guilliman had over the post Heresy Imperium if he hadn't killed Alpharius/Omegon on that battlefield he would have censored the report of the battle to high hell. He wasn't one to lie, especially when it came down to one of his chief rivals.

Secondly it depends on the unique characteristics of Alpharius/Omegon. It's still debated whether this is really two independent people or one Primarch able to split his conscious across two bodies due to the wording in Legion. If it's one conscious across two bodies, perhaps killing one of the bodies is enough to kill the conscious or severly limit its future activity. Think how Sauron's physical shell being destroyed in Lord of the Rings resulted in him taking thousands of years to regain the power to manifest himself physically again. Not that I'm suggesting Alpharius is some kind of uber psyker but that destroying one of his physical bodies may greatly impact upon his powers.

Either way, theres so many possible outcomes to the Alpharius death story now, it's probably the most twisted and convoluted fate of any of the Primarchs.

Tymell
29-04-2010, 11:05
I'm not a massive Dark Angels fan so I'm not entirely sure on the source, perhaps Angels of Darkness or one of the older Codexes (Codices? whatever) but it's fairly well known. Some DA fan will probably pop by and put to shame my knowledge with an exact page quotation but he's definitely in the Rock along with Luther. Apparently he's been sleeping for the best part of 10,000 years, which is the lamest excuse out of all the Primarchs for not doing anything.

Interesting, I'll have to look into it further. Not saying I believe it totally without seeing where exactly it comes from, but it could be another "brb Primarch". Or it could be another myth, it'd be surprising if two people caught on a world as it exploded survived (without the aid of handy refridgerator of course ;) )

ashc
29-04-2010, 11:07
I am sure I have read it too, but cannot recollect where. The highest-level Dark Angels know that they hold the broken Luther within the Rock, but somewhere there, hidden and unbeknownst even to the Dark Angels lies Lion'El Jonson, tended to by the Watchers in the Dark, waiting until he is most needed.

Mojaco
29-04-2010, 11:26
Couldn't Magnus be flipped back to being normal by the rubric?

Londinium
29-04-2010, 11:33
Couldn't Magnus be flipped back to being normal by the rubric?

The Rubric cured the 'flesh change' that was a flaw in the Thousand Son's genetic make up, Magnus has been elevated to the rank of Daemon Prince by Tzeentch himself. They're entirely different situations, the Rubric isn't a catch all anti-Chaos spell. I'm not even sure if it's possible to reverse ascenscion to Daemon Prince, you can expell possessed daemons but fundamentally reversing the changes that undergo in ascenscion to daemonhood is something else entirely.

ashc
29-04-2010, 11:41
The Rubric cured the 'flesh change' that was a flaw in the Thousand Son's genetic make up, Magnus has been elevated to the rank of Daemon Prince by Tzeentch himself. They're entirely different situations, the Rubric isn't a catch all anti-Chaos spell. I'm not even sure if it's possible to reverse ascenscion to Daemon Prince, you can expell possessed daemons but fundamentally reversing the changes that undergo in ascenscion to daemonhood is something else entirely.

This would also be my belief on the subject.

The Judge
29-04-2010, 11:43
Lion El'Johnson being in the Rock is from the original Angels of Death Codex.

ashc
29-04-2010, 11:45
Lion El'Johnson being in the Rock is from the original Angels of Death Codex.

There we go, I knew I had read it but did not own the source :) thanks!

Stucorb
29-04-2010, 11:48
I am sure I have read it too, but cannot recollect where. The highest-level Dark Angels know that they hold the broken Luther within the Rock, but somewhere there, hidden and unbeknownst even to the Dark Angels lies Lion'El Jonson, tended to by the Watchers in the Dark, waiting until he is most needed.

I don't have it to hand but i am pretty sure it was inthe second ed codex angels of death. it basically says that whilst the calliban was being blown up lion suffered a wound and the watchers in the dark took him away into the inner most parts of what was left so that some day when the chapter needed him most he would return, Basically the king arthur myth.

Tymell
29-04-2010, 12:29
So (assuming Lion is indeed still alive) it's 6 daemon primarchs, 5 not-heard-from-in-a-long-time loyalists and 7 dead ones (though Omegon might make it 6 and a half :p)

Karl MkVI
29-04-2010, 12:56
So (assuming Lion is indeed still alive) it's 6 daemon primarchs, 5 not-heard-from-in-a-long-time loyalists and 7 dead ones (though Omegon might make it 6 and a half :p)

that depends on how you look at it. i dont count Guilliman as dead tbh. i count 6 daemons, 6 dead, 5 not-heard-from-in-a-long time, and one on display on Macragge :). i know some say that Guilliman is dead, but i think the way it is written in all sources suggests that his status ('dead' or 'not quite dead') is open to interpretation.

Warsmith Tharak
29-04-2010, 13:43
Guilliman are not dead, if they ever take him out of his stasis cell, he will live and breathe (for about 5 seconds, then he will be dead)...

Kriegschmidt
29-04-2010, 13:53
All the loyalists....

Could you edit your first post or something, with a warning that this thread contains spoilers? I got to post 3 and had the ending of "A Thousand Sons" spoiled for me (I haven't read it yet and would like to).

Thanks, Kriegschmidt :)

gwarsh41
29-04-2010, 14:12
Leman russ will be back in 6th edition daemon codex. Your opponent can choose to use him against you, similar to grey knights and daemons. If Russ is chosen for a space wolves force, all wolves get +1 to all stats, fleet, relentless, furious charge, and feel no pain.

On topic though, rune priests get visions from Russ, he wants them to find his armor so when he gets back he is not naked.

Tymell
29-04-2010, 15:02
that depends on how you look at it. i dont count Guilliman as dead tbh. i count 6 daemons, 6 dead, 5 not-heard-from-in-a-long time, and one on display on Macragge :). i know some say that Guilliman is dead, but i think the way it is written in all sources suggests that his status ('dead' or 'not quite dead') is open to interpretation.

In a fictional universe such as this any of them could potentially still live. The dead Horus might have been a fake, or maybe Sanguinius rises up like a phoenix from death.

But realistically, Guilliman is dead. Hitting the pause button a second before the "official" death doesn't really count to me, and the idea that only some of his physical functions continue while others conveniently stop is just daft, and sounds much like an in-universe desperate hope/myth.

wilsongrahams
29-04-2010, 15:41
Actually, I was thinking on the Gulliman issue myself the other day, and this brought me to the James Swallow books - okay not great or canon but it does mention something when they are fighting around Sanguinius' tomb and that they feel his presence etc, now surely you wouldn't sense a corpse? To me it was ALMOST pointing towards Sanguinius being in similar state to Dorn and Gulliman, being dead as far as anyone could tell at the time they were incarcerated. If gulliman can heal, maybe Sanguinius could too. Only Horus was utterly destroyed and his soul destroyed too - this has not been stated to have happened to any other primarch.

ashc
29-04-2010, 15:57
I thought it that Sanguinius's psyche was devastated so much by the psychic onslaught of Horus that it reverberated back through his whole bloodline; the source of the Black Rage...

L1qw1d
29-04-2010, 15:57
well, wait- it was covered the Rubrik could cure most things except for ascension- wouldn't it also be able de-possess Fulgrim and just restore him to original set state?

ashc
29-04-2010, 15:58
I think that would probably be another exception...

Col. Custard
29-04-2010, 16:09
I would say that it could, but after paying the price for casting the Rubric, that was a very steep price to pay, it would be unknown if they would be able to have enough Sorcerers, ect, to cast it.

wilsongrahams
29-04-2010, 16:10
I thought it that Sanguinius's psyche was devastated so much by the psychic onslaught of Horus that it reverberated back through his whole bloodline; the source of the Black Rage...

Well he did suffer psychic trauma, but it did not detroy his soul. I don't suppose his cry of anguish was much more than a psychic shockwave because Sanguinius was a psyker of sorts - premonition being the main thing mentioned.

Also as for the Rubric, I was under the assumption that the rubric wasn't done to stop the flesh change, but to stop the normal mutation that occured in the warp - this is 2ed fluff here, and Thousand Sons novel does state different, stating that it was for the flesh change even though this is at a later time when they are already on the planet of the sorcerors so could be either by this stage. I didn't think the rubric actually stopped the mutation as much as it destroyed their bodies so there was nothing to mutate - albeit by accident. I can't imagine that this spell would have any effect on magnus seeing as he was not subject to mutation anyway. It was the geneseed that was flawed not him, in the same way as the space wolves and other flawed gene seeds.

genestealer_baldric
29-04-2010, 16:13
He's in the rock very much alive, hangin' with the Watchers in the Dark

we all know that the watchers in the dark are squats and johnson is helping to repopulate the squat race :evilgrin:

Tymell
29-04-2010, 16:19
Actually, I was thinking on the Gulliman issue myself the other day, and this brought me to the James Swallow books - okay not great or canon but it does mention something when they are fighting around Sanguinius' tomb and that they feel his presence etc, now surely you wouldn't sense a corpse? To me it was ALMOST pointing towards Sanguinius being in similar state to Dorn and Gulliman, being dead as far as anyone could tell at the time they were incarcerated. If gulliman can heal, maybe Sanguinius could too. Only Horus was utterly destroyed and his soul destroyed too - this has not been stated to have happened to any other primarch.

Ferrus Manus seemed pretty damn dead when Fulgrim chucked his mutilated, severed head at Horus' feet ;)

I've never really gone in for the arguments of so many of the primarchs still being alive. It's a nice in-universe touch having these myths, but that's all it is. I know there's always the option of bringing someone back from the dead, but in my book Alpharius (ignoring Omegon), Guilliman, Dorn, Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and Kurze are definitely dead until there's something more concrete saying otherwise.

toonboy78
29-04-2010, 16:26
the thing with the alpha legion is that they all look the same and maybe Gulliman killed someone who looked like Alpharius

Karl MkVI
29-04-2010, 16:40
In a fictional universe such as this any of them could potentially still live. The dead Horus might have been a fake, or maybe Sanguinius rises up like a phoenix from death.

But realistically, Guilliman is dead. Hitting the pause button a second before the "official" death doesn't really count to me, and the idea that only some of his physical functions continue while others conveniently stop is just daft, and sounds much like an in-universe desperate hope/myth.

true, but what with "possibly healing in stasis" and whotnot, there's certainly more hint that Guilliman could somehow be alive (and potentially 'live again', as it were, in the manner that the Lion, for example, may live again*) than any of those that are 'definitely dead' (such as Ferrus Manus, Night Haunter, etc) I'm sure you'll agree?

*of course, I am aware that it will almost certainly never happen in the 40K universe's story arc. but the potential is there, deliberately so.

Necron Lord Omega
29-04-2010, 16:43
I thought they only found Dorn's hand or is this another case of GW fluff contradicting itself again?

Londinium
29-04-2010, 17:16
Actually, I was thinking on the Gulliman issue myself the other day, and this brought me to the James Swallow books - okay not great or canon but it does mention something when they are fighting around Sanguinius' tomb and that they feel his presence etc, now surely you wouldn't sense a corpse? To me it was ALMOST pointing towards Sanguinius being in similar state to Dorn and Gulliman, being dead as far as anyone could tell at the time they were incarcerated. If gulliman can heal, maybe Sanguinius could too. Only Horus was utterly destroyed and his soul destroyed too - this has not been stated to have happened to any other primarch.

I like the idea that the Primarchs were such powerful beings psychically that their resting places emit something like an echo of their former aura. Thus what the Blood Angels were feeling was an echo or a ghost of Sanguinius' spirit; tied to that place and not conscious but a faint echo and connection to Sanguinius' soul in the warp. But thats just me, I also consider the Primarchs to be the human equivalent of Greater Daemons on term of their power levels and how they were created with the powers of the warp itself. Which is contentious to say the least, especially amongst Eldar fanbois.

Sanguinius is definitely dead though.

Tymell
29-04-2010, 17:38
true, but what with "possibly healing in stasis" and whotnot, there's certainly more hint that Guilliman could somehow be alive (and potentially 'live again', as it were, in the manner that the Lion, for example, may live again*) than any of those that are 'definitely dead' (such as Ferrus Manus, Night Haunter, etc) I'm sure you'll agree?

I agree there's a greater chance of Guilliman than some others, but only to the extent that I feel there's a 0% chance of Ferrus Manus being alive and a 0.0001% chance of Guilliman being alive.

will564752
29-04-2010, 18:40
Depends on oh so many factors. First of all was that really Alpharius/Omegon or just some plant? personally speaking I believe this was, the Alpha Legion fanboys that state it wasn't ignore the fact that Guilliman would be able to tell whether the dude he was fighting was his brother or not. Considering the control Guilliman had over the post Heresy Imperium if he hadn't killed Alpharius/Omegon on that battlefield he would have censored the report of the battle to high hell. He wasn't one to lie, especially when it came down to one of his chief rivals.

Secondly it depends on the unique characteristics of Alpharius/Omegon. It's still debated whether this is really two independent people or one Primarch able to split his conscious across two bodies due to the wording in Legion. If it's one conscious across two bodies, perhaps killing one of the bodies is enough to kill the conscious or severly limit its future activity. Think how Sauron's physical shell being destroyed in Lord of the Rings resulted in him taking thousands of years to regain the power to manifest himself physically again. Not that I'm suggesting Alpharius is some kind of uber psyker but that destroying one of his physical bodies may greatly impact upon his powers.

Either way, theres so many possible outcomes to the Alpharius death story now, it's probably the most twisted and convoluted fate of any of the Primarchs.

And thats all based on the assumption that the Battle of Eskrador happened in the first place.

Beesterdo
29-04-2010, 19:52
There is some information on Magnus in a Thousand Sons which might shed some light here.

SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

Towards the end, after being defeated by Russ, to send his remaining 1ksons to safety Magnus powers his spell by giving up his physical form. At an earlier point in the book, it theorized by Ahriman I believe that Magnus does not require a physical form and is in fact a being of psychic might.

Compare that to the information found in the Inquisition source book where it states that a few grades past the Alpha Plus level (cannot remember the correct grade), the psyker in question is simply a being of conciousness and does not require physical form.

I believe that this would match the description of Magnus. His power is clearly evident in the novel, the only information we are not supplied with is actual grade.

If this were so then it would redefine his relationship with tzeentch. Perhaps then he is not a deamon prince in the classical sense, his power being bound and supplied by its patron god, but operates more as a partnership or a supplicant. Professing fealty to tzeentch but without the usual ties that bind.

I aplologise about not providing page numbers here, my copy of a Thousand Sons is loaned out just now.

Tymell
29-04-2010, 20:15
Beesterdo's points from those books are accurate, and it's an interesting theory. Certainly sounds possible given what we see of Magnus' motives and relationship with Tzeentch in the book.

Allen
29-04-2010, 20:23
According to official canon:

* Lion El'Jonson: in a secret chamber inside the Rock. Inconscious. And no one, except the Watchers in the Dark, knows he's there.

* Fulgrim: daemon prince

* Perturabo: daemon prince

* Jaghatai Khan: disappeared chasing a Dark Eldar warhost

* Leman Russ: disappeared in the Eye of Terror seeking the mythical Tree of Life

* Rogal Dorn: killed while he was storming the bridge of a traitor Grand Cruiser after the Heresy

* Konrad Kurze: assassinated by the Imperium after the Heresy

* Sanguinius: killed by Horus

* Ferrus Manus: killed by Fulgrim

* Angron: daemon prince

* Roboute Guilliman: mortally wounded by Fulgrim and kept in a stasis field on Macragge

* Mortarion: daemon prince

* Magnus the Red: daemon prince

* Horus: killed by the Emperor

* Lorgar: daemon prince

* Vulkan: disappeared after the Heresy for unknow reasons

* Corax: disappeared after the Heresy out of shame for his genetic experiments on the Raven Guard

* Alpharius: disappeared after the Heresy


And in case someone is wondering...

No, Guilliman is not healing inside the stasis field. The Codex where this info was printed stated pretty clearly that this was a sort of legend popular in the masses of pilgrims visiting his tomb. Keyword: legend. No one inside the Ultramarines Chapter believes that.

No, Alpharius is not dead. The IA article where the tale was printed stated pretty clearly that the in-universe commentary of that campaign was a hoax orchestrated by an Inquisitor later declared Excommunicate Traitor, and believed to be an Alpha Legion mole. The Ultramarines archives does not contain any trace of Guilliman killing Alpharius in duel and, according to that IA article, they even deny that their Primarch killed the traitor.

No, the Night Haunter is not alive. Even if the vid-log of the assassin M'Shai cuts moments before the execution of the Primarch later books about the Night Lords Legion state pretty clearly that Curze is dead.



This is the official material about Primarchs. Apparently there are no more "normal" Primarchs around: all the loyalist ones are either dead or disappeared.

Chaos Undecided
29-04-2010, 20:45
As far as I recall the original fluff about the Rubric cast by Ahriman had it that only those members of the legion who had no psychic ability were reduced to dust, the sorcerers remained flesh and blood as they had the strength of will to resist the change.

The way the Thousand Son book talks about Magnus having a body of pure magic at the end almost suggests he was the first to achieve daemonhood as after all isnt that what a Daemon is essentially?

Beesterdo
29-04-2010, 20:59
As far as I remember Chaos Undecided, you've got the rubric spot on. Normal troops got 'saved' from mutation.... by being transformed into automations and the sorcerers survived but with their powers boosted.

I think a daemon is a being 'born' of the warp, either spawned by one of the pantheon or by a collection of emotions congealing and achieving sentience (of sorts).

Magnus is different as he was created from the physical realm and it is his prostigious power that allows him to discard his physical being and chise to be a being of conciousness. Although now thinking about it, after the events in a Thousand Sons can Magnus exist in the physical realm without summoning? Was that part of the price of saving his Legion?

Perhaps the next book will clear this up.

By the way, I spoke to Graham McNeill at Conflict Scotland (at great length, the poor sod) and he says he would love to revisit Ahriman to tell more of his story although he did say that he believes Ahriman is now (40k) totally corrupted. He see's him as following his Primarchs path for doing the right thing the wrong way.

fracas
29-04-2010, 21:41
I agree with Allen with one modification

"This is the official material about Primarchs. Apparently there are no more "normal" Primarchs around: all the loyalist ones are either dead or disappeared."

assuming the two missing Primarchs are dead ofcourse

randian
30-04-2010, 00:21
Guilliman isn't "5 seconds from death", or indeed any known number of seconds from death. Dying from a disease, even a daemonic one, isn't like a bomb countdown timer. The curve varies from individual to individual, even from day to day. I doubt the individual variability of medicine has disappeared in 40k. For Guilliman, whose physiology is so different Imperial medicine doesn't understand it, and with no Emperor around to explain things, I seriously doubt they waited until he was already flatlining to put him in stasis. That would be foolish, since there is no way to know whether the additional hour you gave yourself is the hour in which he dies. It would be much more sane to put him in stasis once it's clear he won't recover and you have no way of saving him. Should a potential cure be found in the future you won't hamstring your successors by giving them no time to administer it.

By now Guilliman is such an icon I doubt his caretakers would allow any supposed cure to be tested on him.

Allen
30-04-2010, 07:05
Guilliman isn't "5 seconds from death", or indeed any known number of seconds from death. Dying from a disease, even a daemonic one, isn't like a bomb countdown timer. The curve varies from individual to individual, even from day to day. I doubt the individual variability of medicine has disappeared in 40k. For Guilliman, whose physiology is so different Imperial medicine doesn't understand it, and with no Emperor around to explain things, I seriously doubt they waited until he was already flatlining to put him in stasis


According to the IA article where his battle with Fulgrim was described, his officers found him on the field of battle with a single, deep slashing wound on his neck. He was dying, dying very fast. As with Horus on Davin, none of his apothecaries could do anything to even stabilize him.

The senior officers of the Legion decided then to put him in stasis and bring him back on Macragge, where a great mausoleum was built for him. With the Emperor confined in the Golden Throne, any hope of curing him was lost: according to the article and (later) to the HH novels, noone before, during and after the Heresy understood what kind of biology and physiology a Primarch had...not even the Primarchs themselves.



That would be foolish, since there is no way to know whether the additional hour you gave yourself is the hour in which he dies. It would be much more sane to put him in stasis once it's clear he won't recover and you have no way of saving him

That's exactly what happened. He was found incounscious, bleeding to death on the field of his last battle with his possessed brother. He was wounded by the anatheme the chaos-infused weapon stolen from the Interex. Horus was wounded with the same weapon, and his senior apothecaries (the most capable medical specialists of the most trained and capable of the pre-Heresy legions) were not able even to understand what was crippling the regenerative proprieties of his body. According to the novel, they even proposed to put Horus in stasis and bring him to the Emperor...the solution later adopted by the Ultramarines. Sadly when Guilliman was wounded the Emperor was...let's say that he was "permanently unavailable".

To sum this up: there was no time to plan an effective strategy taking account of an hypotetic future cure. He was found nearly dead, noone was able to understand what happened and stabilizing him was impossible. They put him in stasis out of desperation...just to avoid looking their gene-father passing away. They literally hit the pause button seconds before the "game over" screen.




I agree with Allen with one modification

"This is the official material about Primarchs. Apparently there are no more "normal" Primarchs around: all the loyalist ones are either dead or disappeared."

assuming the two missing Primarchs are dead ofcourse


The two missing Primarchs are, to paraphrase the words of Malcador the Sigillite...not to be mentioned.
Apparently they did something so vile or became something so weird that even their statues were removed from the Imperial Palace of Terra...just to contextualize for those that didn't read "The Lighting Tower", the statues of the traitors Primarchs are simply covered, not removed. In-universe, the two missing Primarchs are not considered loyal or traitors...they are never mentioned because something happened. Something so wierd that the Sigillite even interrupts Dorn mid-sentence, saying that their "separate tragedies" should not even be mentioned.

Thanatos_elNyx
30-04-2010, 07:56
The way the Thousand Son book talks about Magnus having a body of pure magic at the end almost suggests he was the first to achieve daemonhood as after all isnt that what a Daemon is essentially?

That is not how I read it.

What I got was that Magnus sacrificed his physical form in his fight against Russ. But his warp form (which was only ever loosely attached to his physical body anyway) survived and joined the rest on the Planet of the Sorcerers.

Later on he may well become a Daemon Prince, but I amn't sure he is one at the end of ATS.

randian
30-04-2010, 10:04
What I got was that Magnus sacrificed his physical form in his fight against Russ. But his warp form (which was only ever loosely attached to his physical body anyway) survived and joined the rest on the Planet of the Sorcerers.

Later on he may well become a Daemon Prince, but I am not sure he is one at the end of ATS.
Magnus did reappear from within the planet, after a significant period of time. That's pretty suspicious if he isn't already Tzeentch's pawn. Even Alpha+ psykers can't maintain spiritual coherency in the warp after death. They soon dissipate if not destroyed by daemons first. It suggests the level of warp energy required to permanently survive, and fight off warp predators, is much higher than that possessed by even the mightiest corporeal psykers.

One thing was odd though. Thousand Sons can sense the corruption of daemonic entities. We saw that in the fight with one. It may simply be a fluff error, but every Thousand Son on the Planet of the Sorcerers should have sensed the zone of corruption that surrounds a mighty daemon like Magnus. Except they weren't, in fact they noticed nothing untoward at all about Magnus when he appeared to them. Maybe you're right, he hasn't received his daemonic upgrade yet. Or maybe Tzeentch is covering for him by suppressing his aura.

Karl MkVI
30-04-2010, 11:05
He (Guilliman) was wounded by the anatheme the chaos-infused weapon stolen from the Interex

you've decided this for yourself; it isn't official canon. at no point is it stated that the Anathame is what wounded Guilliman; Guilliman's wounding at the hands of Fulgrim was canon long before the concept of the Anathame even existed in writing (previous content simply said 'Horus was wounded', it was never stated how or by what).

will564752
30-04-2010, 11:21
you've decided this for yourself; it isn't official canon. at no point is it stated that the Anathame is what wounded Guilliman; Guilliman's wounding at the hands of Fulgrim was canon long before the concept of the Anathame even existed in writing (previous content simply said 'Horus was wounded', it was never stated how or by what).

Your correct. Although its widely assumed that he was wounded by the Anathame, considering it was in Fulgrim's possession and by the description of the wound it seems very similar to when Horus was wounded by it. But ultimately we cannot surely know, although it seems almost certain that the weapon used to wound Guilliman was the Anathame.

And on a side note, the Anathame wasn't a 'Chaos-Infused' Weapon was it? It was created by Xenos.

Mojaco
30-04-2010, 11:45
I wonder which of the loyalist primarchs was the last to live in the Imperium. The one who saw all his brother either die or disappear. And when did the last one die/disappear? M31, M32?

ashc
30-04-2010, 12:00
I have a feeling it's Dorn or Guilliman... can't confirm that though.

I also remember that one of the last to wander off (something says to me its Russ or Vulkan) kind of did so to look for his brothers too, but again, can't comfirm anything.

Thanatos_elNyx
30-04-2010, 12:49
Calgar, a primarch he is not.

ashc
30-04-2010, 12:59
Calgar, a primarch he is not.

whoopsie, you know I meant Guilliman :P

Edited for the sake of it now too, thanks!

Tymell
30-04-2010, 13:16
I wonder which of the loyalist primarchs was the last to live in the Imperium. The one who saw all his brother either die or disappear. And when did the last one die/disappear? M31, M32?

I seem to remember this question coming up somewhere else fairly recently. I would imagine it would be one of Khan, Russ, Dorn or Guilliman. I haven't got my codexes/index astartes with me, so I can't check if they give any dates.

Sanguinius and Ferrus died during the Heresy, Vulkan disappeared in it/very soon after it, and Lion was taken out of action just after it too. Corax is said to have gone into solitude for one year before disappearing. Granted, he only went into that at some point after rebuilding his legion, but if I had to guess then I'd rule him out.

wilsongrahams
30-04-2010, 13:43
I'd say that was a reasonable assumption - it'd have taken the UM's longer than a year to do their scouring of the galaxy, and of course the codex had to be written before Gulliman disappeared. I'd be tempted to say it was Russ because it does state that he went to search for his brothers and in particular Jonson, but with the known dead there couldn't have been any to search for if they were still around and not yet lost.

Mr_Rose
30-04-2010, 13:58
And on a side note, the Anathame wasn't a 'Chaos-Infused' Weapon was it? It was created by Xenos.
And what stops Xenos from using Chaos weaponry?
More specifically, when the Humans of the Interex conquered the original builders of the Anathames (who originally handed them out like the Imperium hands out power swords) the Interex recognised them for what they were; ordinary blades infused with the power of the Primordial Annihilator, and destroyed the means to make them and all surviving examples save one.

MacMortal
30-04-2010, 16:17
I thought they only found Dorn's hand or is this another case of GW fluff contradicting itself again?

Thats what I have read too. Why do people want Dorn dead so much? All they have found is his hand " which they right that names of the Chapter Masters name on".:eyebrows:

Londinium
30-04-2010, 16:46
Thats what I have read too. Why do people want Dorn dead so much? All they have found is his hand " which they right that names of the Chapter Masters name on".:eyebrows:

It's combination of people who hold firm to very very old retconned fluff that Rogal Dorn's skeleton is on display and people who find it hard to read between the lines in GW fluff. His death is left deliberately vague precisely to leave it open for him to return. If you want to prefer thinking he died defending against one of the First Black Crusades that fine, but it's equally likely he survived somehow just sans a hand :p

Idaan
30-04-2010, 16:51
No. All they have displayed in a reliquiary is his hand.


(they) recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon and a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine

And I, personally, want him dead because he was a man for whom honour and duty meant all. He wouldn't go wandering around galaxy without leaving a word purely because he had a bad hangover or emo mood like the other slackers. He wouldn't abandon people he swore to protect, because he already failed to be by the Emperor's side when he needed it most.

SeaSwift
30-04-2010, 17:10
I thought he could have escaped through a Warp portal that was on the Chaos ship and got stuck somewhere fighting alongside Leman Russ...?

Yeah, I'll stick to my Eldar fluff and my crazy theories about the Emperor being the last chance of the Old Ones.

And just to really shut down the purpose of this thread, NO, Magnus is not the last real Primarch left, as there are real primarchs left, and he's not one of them (unless you look at that 1Ksons-detecting-Chaos-thing as proof that he is actually normal in disguise or something)

Londinium
30-04-2010, 17:32
No. All they have displayed in a reliquiary is his hand.


No. If you read what I said, I stated old fluff had his entire skeleton on display, which has long been retconned. I didn't state they still had it, all that exists now is as you say his hand.

Tymell
30-04-2010, 17:44
No. If you read what I said, I stated old fluff had his entire skeleton on display, which has long been retconned. I didn't state they still had it, all that exists now is as you say his hand.

Where exactly has it been retconned? The latest I read on the matter was the Index Astartes article on the Imperial Fists, which states (as Idaan already quoted in fact):


They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis

They recovered what remained of him. That makes it pretty clear he's dead. Unless there's a source as official and more recent than that, I'd say he is an ex-primarch.

Londinium
30-04-2010, 21:04
It's from Space Marine, read that book and be surprised at how different it is from modern 40k.

Tymell
30-04-2010, 21:37
It's from Space Marine, read that book and be surprised at how different it is from modern 40k.

Space Marine the Ian Watson novel? From 1993? That's your retconning source? :eyebrows:

No offence to Ian Watson, but if it came to a choice between Space Marine and the Index Astartes series, I know which I'm going to plump for as "official canon".

Londinium
01-05-2010, 00:32
Huh? I said that the skeleton thing had been retconned into the hand, not the other way around. Which is quite true as that book was written well well before the IA articles and the concept of only Rogal Dorn's hand being found. It was as close as you could get to official cannon at the time considering it came some 6/7 years (I'm sketchy on when the IA's started) before the IA's and was the only mention of Dorn's fate at that time.

Grubnar
01-05-2010, 07:23
It's combination of people who hold firm to very very old retconned fluff that Rogal Dorn's skeleton is on display and people who find it hard to read between the lines in GW fluff. His death is left deliberately vague precisely to leave it open for him to return. If you want to prefer thinking he died defending against one of the First Black Crusades that fine, but it's equally likely he survived somehow just sans a hand :p

Sure!
And Ferrus could very well be alive also, just sans a head. :angel:

Tymell
01-05-2010, 08:18
Huh? I said that the skeleton thing had been retconned into the hand, not the other way around.

But in your previous post you argued that his death was left open (in other words, that only his hand was found) for him to return, and in the same post argued that the old, retconned fluff was his whole body was found. But that's what Index Astartes says: it says his whole body was found, not just his hand.

So what I'm saying is, where is this more recent background material which retcons that and turns it into "just his hand was found"?

Allen
01-05-2010, 08:35
Modern canon (i.e. IA articles) point out that they recovered the whole body, and displayed the right hand in a reliquiary. Old canon (Ian Watson novel "Space Marine") states that they recovered only the hand.

According to GW childish excuse for bad writing "everything is canon", no one can argue if there's a body of Dorn somewhere in the Fortress Monastery of the Imperial Fists. What we can say, however, is that there are a lot of circumstantial evidences that can support the "he's dead!" theory.

* He was last seen charging in the heavily defended bridge of the Grand Cruiser he and his soldiers were attacking...when other jellow dudes in armour reached the bridge, they found only dead Imperial Fists and the hand (according to Ian Watson). Other sources states that they found also the corpse of Dorn (IA article).

* The space ship was destroyed minutes after this discovery

* Dorn was not planning to leave his Legion as Russ or Corax

Iracundus
01-05-2010, 09:56
Modern canon (.e. IA articles) point out that they recovered the whole body, and displayed the right hand in a reliquiary. Old canon (Ian Watson novel "Space Marine") states that they recovered only the hand.


You've gotten things mixed up. It was the Ian Watson novel that said the entire body was preserved. It was embedded in a block of amber-like material, and the hands were displayed separately in 2 reliquaries. A ritual involving the ingestion of some of that amber as a means of communion is the main scene for one of the chapters.

MajorWesJanson
01-05-2010, 10:51
The two missing Primarchs are, to paraphrase the words of Malcador the Sigillite...not to be mentioned.
Apparently they did something so vile or became something so weird that even their statues were removed from the Imperial Palace of Terra...just to contextualize for those that didn't read "The Lighting Tower", the statues of the traitors Primarchs are simply covered, not removed. In-universe, the two missing Primarchs are not considered loyal or traitors...they are never mentioned because something happened. Something so wierd that the Sigillite even interrupts Dorn mid-sentence, saying that their "separate tragedies" should not even be mentioned.

At least one had their legion's geneseed mutate and break down. Perhaps Chaos did manage to affect at least one while they were scattered? Gene-seed failure is a pretty big worry for the Marines, especially Fulgrim who is nervous about it after most of the Emperor's Children were lost.

Actually, the Thousand Sons also have the Flesh Change. Perhaps the other two legions suffered from the same thing, only more severe, and the Emperor's Children had an outbreak that took out most the original force before Fulgrim wasw found and used to restabilize the gene-seed.

chris.crowing
01-05-2010, 13:40
What's the source? I'm dubious simply because almost every primarch has a "they're still alive!" myth, some are more believable than others :p

2nd Ed Codex: Angels of Death - the fluff piece inside the back cover, if memory serves correctly.

Karl MkVI
01-05-2010, 16:33
Yeah, I'll stick to my Eldar fluff and my crazy theories about the Emperor being the last chance of the Old Ones.

thats not crazy at all. i have the same theory, and it actually has a lot of basis. even Xisor has postulated this as a possible origin for the Emperor.

id be interested to see how closely our ideas compare; i may PM you...

BrainFireBob
01-05-2010, 23:19
Ferrus Manus seemed pretty damn dead when Fulgrim chucked his mutilated, severed head at Horus' feet ;)

I've never really gone in for the arguments of so many of the primarchs still being alive. It's a nice in-universe touch having these myths, but that's all it is. I know there's always the option of bringing someone back from the dead, but in my book Alpharius (ignoring Omegon), Guilliman, Dorn, Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and Kurze are definitely dead until there's something more concrete saying otherwise.

I've always favored the idea that the newer HH books seem to back- that the Primarchs were more than genetically engineered, but were engineered in the warp as well. Given that reasoning, the only one that would be completely and irreversibly dead would be Horus- his "warp nexus" also having been obliterated by his father.

I gather there was second ed fluff that implied Sanguinius was going to return like a greater daemon possessing one of his sons- most probably Mephiston, as an explanation for Mephiston's super-Marine powers and stats (slower becoming his gene-father).

ryng_sting
02-05-2010, 12:03
I gather there was second ed fluff that implied Sanguinius was going to return like a greater daemon possessing one of his sons- most probably Mephiston, as an explanation for Mephiston's super-Marine powers and stats (slower becoming his gene-father).

Nope. Just a snippet about other BA venerating him as the 'spiritual son of Sanguinius'. The next edition added a beatific vision of Sanguinius appearing to Mephiston during his ordeal on Armageddon, telling him to cast out the Black Rage. Curiously, the current edition doesn't mention this, and adds, in its place, a whispered rumour that Mephiston owes his resurrection to a far darker source. Everyone's favourite daemonic whipping-boy M'kar the Reborn actually tells Mephiston he's on the road to daemonhood, and that plants a terrible seed of doubt in the BA's Chief Librarian.

Iuris
02-05-2010, 12:17
At least one had their legion's geneseed mutate and break down.
Source? Because there's nothing about the missing legions known. Nothing. GW has kept very quiet on the subject.

LexxBomb
02-05-2010, 15:04
and this is why GW writers need a Fluff Bible or Fact sheet each so as to keep consistency... heck GW could publish 1 every decade so as to maintain what is actual canon and not do stupid things like rewrite previous books removing some fluff like the Squat Engineer in Inquisition war into a mechanicus person

come on GW you just republished Space marine without editing it. if your going to do a George Lucas and edit your stories again may I suggest doing us a favor and start with Swallow and then Abnett.

Tymell
02-05-2010, 15:40
Personally, I really dislike the idea of the primarchs all coming back to life/not being dead. It devalues their deaths (and the Horus Heresy itself) to do so. Having the little myths/legends in-universe is cool, but that's all they are.


2nd Ed Codex: Angels of Death - the fluff piece inside the back cover, if memory serves correctly.

Ta, I like to collect old codexes/army books, but haven't gotten that one yet.


You've gotten things mixed up. It was the Ian Watson novel that said the entire body was preserved. It was embedded in a block of amber-like material, and the hands were displayed separately in 2 reliquaries. A ritual involving the ingestion of some of that amber as a means of communion is the main scene for one of the chapters.

So in other words, -both- sources say it was the whole body that was found?