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Stalin MkII
18-02-2006, 06:20
Who would win, a simple imperial citizen or an earth caste worker, aka two people of comparable jos, who is better, a human or tau, this is unarmed and unarmoured etc. basically in a barroom brawl, who would you bet on?

Nathaniel
18-02-2006, 06:23
I'd nearly always bet on the human, after all humans have a basic animal brutality that one of the Earth caste couldn't have.

Shinzui
18-02-2006, 06:28
Please...no. Not stupid who vs who threads. Not here. :cries:

You don't need a thread to dicuss a pretty obvious outcome. Tau suck at close combat at the physical level, not just skill. Of course the average human would win.

Khaine's Messenger
18-02-2006, 06:32
basically in a barroom brawl, who would you bet on?

You sir, are either supremely bored, or trying to make a very sly point. Or honestly curious. I don't know which. But I suspect the second, since the title of this thread has such an inflammatory tone to it, since you just know everyone who's anyone in the "can the Tau really survive in 40k?" argument will descend on this thread like flies on...well, you know. Otherwise, the option is that you're very bored (kinda likely) or honestly curious, in which case I would say "fool me once, shame on me" because, well...this isn't much of an interesting topic even though it could go on for pages discussing the relative physical fitness, mental acuity after consumption of alcohol, etc.

The views ticker should be interesting to watch.

Eduard
18-02-2006, 09:22
the Human, probably with an arm behind its back.

Freak Ona Leash
18-02-2006, 10:29
Tau seem to have less height, muscle mass and general close combat skill then your average human (tohugh the average human sucks at Clsoe combat anyways) so I say human.

Stalin MkII
18-02-2006, 18:39
You sir, are either supremely bored, or trying to make a very sly point. Or honestly curious. I don't know which. But I suspect the second, since the title of this thread has such an inflammatory tone to it, since you just know everyone who's anyone in the "can the Tau really survive in 40k?" argument will descend on this thread like flies on...well, you know. Otherwise, the option is that you're very bored (kinda likely) or honestly curious, in which case I would say "fool me once, shame on me" because, well...this isn't much of an interesting topic even though it could go on for pages discussing the relative physical fitness, mental acuity after consumption of alcohol, etc.

The views ticker should be interesting to watch.

I dont really know any sly point im making, i merely asked this because me and my brother were talking about how it seems in every sci fi anything, human are always physically at the disasvantage to 90% of the races it meets. Then i pointed out we have advantage over tau, and he disagreed that we really did, saying tau fire warriors are worse be`cause their training does not go into hand to hand, It sounded fishy to me so i proposed this here

Mikko
18-02-2006, 19:37
I dont really know any sly point im making, i merely asked this because me and my brother were talking about how it seems in every sci fi anything, human are always physically at the disasvantage to 90% of the races it meets. Then i pointed out we have advantage over tau, and he disagreed that we really did, saying tau fire warriors are worse be`cause their training does not go into hand to hand, It sounded fishy to me so i proposed this here
Oh, Fire warrior training does actually go into hand-to-hand, as well. It's just that they suck at it by nature, in comparison to all the other races out there (including humans), and like any good soldiers they concentrate on their strengths (superior firepower), so the close combat training is probably more about avoiding close combat than winning at it... :)

I would say the average untrained human would, on average, likely beat an average, untrained representative of any major species other than 'Nids or Orks.

The Judge
18-02-2006, 20:33
Tau depth perception would make him misjudge every punch... Human Wins!

I think that an unarmed Fire Warrior has a higher muscle mass than an Imperial Guardsman.

Eldar versus Human.. human wins? Excuse me!? Not a chance.

Mikko
18-02-2006, 20:38
Tau depth perception would make him misjudge every punch... Human Wins!
Of course, I'm pretty darn myopic myself and that never slowed me down any in close-up sparring, only at range. :)


Eldar versus Human.. human wins? Excuse me!? Not a chance.
Well, I thought it was kind of a borderline judgement, myself...

Benpaul
18-02-2006, 21:06
Tau aren't short sighted, they lack the ability to focus very well, making them slower to react. I think the order of 'who would win a fight' between the major humanoid races goes:- Ork>Eldar>Human>Tau.

athamas
18-02-2006, 21:34
a Tau fire warrior is generally stronger than your average human and tougher,

however the other parts of their race are much much weaker...

Inquisitor Maul
18-02-2006, 21:42
This image says all ;)

Nathaniel
18-02-2006, 21:48
Now that is a very good arguement to why firewarriors suck at combat, a funny one too.

Gavmo
18-02-2006, 22:17
a Tau fire warrior is generally stronger than your average human and tougher

Um, where did you get this info from? Every picture i've seen of a Tau compaired to a Human or Space Marine shows them as half pints. Its like comparing a Chinese person to a Marsai. On average, one doesnt top 6 foot, and the other doesnt stand under 6 foot.
There is no way a Fire Warrior would be stronger and tougher than an average human. They may come very close to equal, but not more. Even though they train all the time, its like a superfit guardsman compaired to a weak ork. The ork will always be stronger and tougher due to nature. (Geneticaly engineered nature.:p )

MIGHTYPanhead
18-02-2006, 22:32
There is no way a Fire Warrior would be stronger and tougher than an average human. They may come very close to equal, but not more. Even though they train all the time, its like a superfit guardsman compaired to a weak ork. The ork will always be stronger and tougher due to nature. (Geneticaly engineered nature.:p )

basically how i see it as well

if you take a ciillian tau, and a civillian human, human is on average, better at CC

take a firewarrior, versus a civillian human, the firewarrior should be, on average, better

though, going to the other side, if tau elite are firewarriors, then IG elite would be stormtroopers, STvs. firewarrior, ST wins

basically how i compare different races together, in general CC ability, i would order them ork>human>tau

eldar are an oddity to me, it could be either way, they're definately more skilled, but in physical strength I would put a human ahead. hence why i didn't include them in the little chart (thing)

pyramid_head
18-02-2006, 23:01
conscripts are WS2 I 3

Fire warriors are WS 2 I 2

winnar = human

mongoosedog300
18-02-2006, 23:36
pyramid head you can't really go off game stats, as an ork is acctually stronger than a space marine, but in game there strengths are the same

Kage2020
18-02-2006, 23:51
Technology is a wonderful equaliser, though, despite the tin-pot 'fantasy' representations in the 'fluff' that has Marines straining their muscles, etc.

Kage

Anvils Hammer
18-02-2006, 23:52
i think the human would win, an earth caste tau is probable strong and fit, but they would have no combat training whatso ever.
an average tau earth caste has NEVER been in a fight.
an average human, born on almost any imperial world, will have been through a lot of fights without ever joining the Guard.

in terms of sheer brutality and skill, as well as reaction speeds etc, a human would wipe the floor with an earth castes ass.
a fire warrior would beat an average human, but an average gaurdsman would win against a FW.

Apollyon
19-02-2006, 00:05
WTF a Boy is not as strong as a Marine. A Boss maybe


pyramid head you can't really go off game stats, as an ork is acctually stronger than a space marine, but in game there strengths are the same

Sephiroth
19-02-2006, 00:10
conscripts are WS2 I 3

Fire warriors are WS 2 I 2

winnar = human

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/Zekk/knifefight_small.jpg

Looks like the Tau didn't read your statistics. :p ;)

Falkus
19-02-2006, 00:39
Now, that's a damn good model.

cymric
19-02-2006, 00:40
essentially it comes down do who wants the fight more. This goes for bar room brawls and battles. what is the motovation for these two to fight? I mean if they are in the bar they most likely have just gotten off of work and just want to have some beer and wacth the blood bowl game.

conversation:
Earth Caste Tau: So how was the Forge factory today?
Human Civvy: okay my foreman is a jerk.
Tau: Yeah some etheral came in today preaching the greater good after we asked for a pay raise.
Human: they still paying you guys dirt?
Tau: Yeah, so who do you think is going to win the championship?
Human: Duh SMU (Space Marine University)
Tau: No I think BSC(Battle Suit College) is going to take it.
Human: SMU!!!!!
Tau: BSC!!!!!
Human: Listen Here you blue skinned genetic imperfection!!!!!!
Tau: Hey you ape like machine worshipper!!!!!!

Fight ensues resulting in the Ork barkeeper throwing them both out.

HPS(Harliquin Prep School for girls) defeats SMU 21-10

pyramid_head
19-02-2006, 01:22
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/Zekk/knifefight_small.jpg

Looks like the Tau didn't read your statistics. :p ;)

screw that tau

Gen_eV
19-02-2006, 02:12
though, going to the other side, if tau elite are firewarriors, then IG elite would be stormtroopers, STvs. firewarrior, ST wins

Fire Warriors as "elite" Tau?
No, they're just your standard military. Still not as good in CC as an IG due to the reduced size and slowed reactions compared to a human, of course.

As far as Earth Caste vs. unarmed human, I'd go with the reactions/height thing again, rather than any idea that they don't get into fights. I'm pretty sure it's never been said that non-Fire Caste Tau are naturally calm, just that Fire Warriors are hot-headed little beggars.

Minister
19-02-2006, 02:27
The typical Earth Caste member is a member of an idealised community. His primary task is technical oversight or some other non-physical skilled or semi-skilled task. The average human citizen is a manual labourer who will almost inevitably be involved in some form of combat at some point (violence is, after all, endemic on most Imperial worlds).

Take an IT geek or lab technician, and put him in a fight against a bricklayer or foundry worker, with no equipment or mitigating factors. The former is usually beaten up by the latter. Now factor in that it is a Tau pulling the desk job...

Kage2020
19-02-2006, 03:05
The obvious point here is that we're talking about stereotypes? While obvious, the question is whether stereotypes play an overtly large position in the 40k universe...?

Kage

justFIGHT
19-02-2006, 03:44
it doesnt matter who would be who cuz an ork would just jump in and rip em both apart:evilgrin: ;)

on topic, the human would win.

EDIT: an ork would go toe to toe with a marine in combat. the game doenst present that because orks would be too overpowered for their cost.

Xisor
19-02-2006, 15:34
Does the Tau come with his attendent horde of drones which nowadays make up for their lack of strength? Back in the Mont'au days, the Fio seem more like dwarfs than human 'analogues', so they'd have been a good bet in a fight. Nowadays they don't need to be so immensely physically strong, because their drones do most of the manual work.

However, what we simply don't know is the day to day life of the average Tau worker(an caste}. Why do I bring this up? Well, there's every chance that many non-Shas Tau take martial art lessons{an outlet for non-tau'va related agrression}, are extremely fit{as it's no use for the Tau'va if you turn into a fat lardass} and tremendously busy all round. Not like some IT Geek.

Bear in mind that a high portion of the 'average' Imperial citizen will be some form of Scribe or Mechanicus 'cog in the machine'. Do these citizens get to fight with their bionics?

:p

Seriously, on the whole, I'd say 'human wins', but not to the utter removal of the Fio. You might just find the 'average tau' that is a pink-belt in Tau Kwan Doe...

Xisor

MIGHTYPanhead
19-02-2006, 15:38
Fire Warriors as "elite" Tau?
No, they're just your standard military. Still not as good in CC as an IG due to the reduced size and slowed reactions compared to a human, of course.
.

alright, though... IMO a standard IG isn't too far from a civvi human, most are drafted, wth minimal training in CC. Tau get the cream of the training crop compared to the 'guard

though, just my own opinion

Anvils Hammer
19-02-2006, 23:52
I disagree. in most cases your average human IG, assuming they are regular guard and not PDF, conscripts etc, would be as well trained in all forms of combat as a special forces soldier in todays military.

they spend 6 months in the warp traveling to a planet.. what do you think they do during that time?

The survivers of a massive war then spend a few more months training while in transit. The veterans pass on skills to new recuits.

After a few decades of a regiments existance, Id imagine the majority would be trained to an extreemly high degree.

Modern day human soldiers are probably 2.5's on the statline, not 3's.

cymric
20-02-2006, 00:00
I would have to dissagree with the 2.5 stat line esp when considering US infantry. The army requires a minimum of 23 of 40 for certification. I would be willing to support a BS 3 with sharpshooters to represent US Infantry.

pyramid_head
20-02-2006, 01:37
I would have to dissagree with the 2.5 stat line esp when considering US infantry. The army requires a minimum of 23 of 40 for certification. I would be willing to support a BS 3 with sharpshooters to represent US Infantry.



ahah ahahahaha ahahahahahahaha ahahahahahahahaha soaihsoahsoah

oh god

we're more like BS 1, I think the average now is like 15,000 rounds per kill.

Plus you get that 23 out of 40 in a chilled environment where people aren't shooting back at you and smoke and **** aren't getting in your face and and and variables.

considering the fact they hit half the time guard make rangers and greenies look like a Russian conscript in 1942

as soon as I read Anvil's post I knew the relative fanboys of the various militaries would get hissy

cymric
20-02-2006, 01:53
15,000 rounds per kill was the estimate in what the vietnam war?

and do those estimates include automatic gun fire wich is not designed to expressly kill your oppenets?

If your arguement where to be correct then on the range a gaurdsman would be a god on the range.

Falkus
20-02-2006, 02:11
we're more like BS 1, I think the average now is like 15,000 rounds per kill.

You do realize that most of the gunfire is simply covering fire, to force the enemy to keep their heads down?

Kage2020
20-02-2006, 02:13
Also, not forgetting non-attributable casualties within the kill range of weapons...

Kage

pyramid_head
20-02-2006, 02:36
15,000 rounds per kill was the estimate in what the vietnam war?


Much more recent than that, chuck. At Least GW1. The problem with warhammer is it that everyone seems to have the ability to find cover of a dead ox, its actually much harder to kill an enemy combatant than you would guess. Certainly in modern war squad after squad aren't just mowed down ala Omaha.


and do those estimates include automatic gun fire wich is not designed to expressly kill your oppenets?

If your arguement where to be correct then on the range a gaurdsman would be a god on the range.

I don't know what military you've served in but when you are operating an MG you are still aiming at people.

and the fact is still that a guardsman retains the same BS on a crew served weapon that he does on his rifle.


You do realize that most of the gunfire is simply covering fire, to force the enemy to keep their heads down?

Having been a ground pounder I'm fairly savvy on the subject. last time I checked covering is still shooting to kill, Usually, the fact is the vast majority of the time you won't hit your target because they are in cover, not the most ideal shot but nothing in war is ideal so you do with what you have. this is why the advent of assault rifles was such a turning point in infantry history, because the ability to easilly allocate round after round at a target rather than having to work the bolt or reload after 8 rounds greatly increases the kill percentile at the expense of far greater amounts of ammunition.

Simply put you don't have to be nearly as accurate with an M16 as you did with an '03 because of the rate of fire you can output.

40k doesn't represent cover well, if it were accurate there would be alot of 2+ invulns laying around, on a D10.

Giladis
20-02-2006, 08:58
15,000 rounds per kill.

wow that is alot. Don't guys in US army have a rule on 3 bullet bursts. Here where I am we are taught to fight single shot fire and very rarely 3 bullet bursts while automatic fire is practicaly unused.

The reason for this could be low budget for the military but it atleast teaches a man to fire so that every shot counts.

pyramid_head
20-02-2006, 10:28
its pretty much the same across the board internationally.

Our current 16s have a 3RB capability but you would rarely use it.

azimaith
20-02-2006, 10:39
The whole firewarrior vs guardmen thing is off though. A firewarrior stands a pretty equal chance to defeating a normal guardsmen in close combat because they have better armor. They may strike slower but they are far more likely to have a bayonet bounce off their armor than a guardsman is.

Commander Ozae
21-02-2006, 01:19
Besides its about 1 firewarrior vs. like 1 billion guardsmen. The Imperium has numbers and it has marines. The Tau at this point don't have the numbers or the capacity for FTL travel to equal the Imperials.

C. Langana
21-02-2006, 02:04
"can the Tau really survive in 40k?" argument will descend on this thread like flies on...well, you know.
The views ticker should be interesting to watch.
Views at 851. Replies 41. Tau being compared to bugs on the windshield of life, check (quite right too, smarmy blue no noses :P)
You sir should think of a sideline in clairvoyancy.

Just to pour some oil on the flames, the original question regarded a barroom brawl. Thus we must consider the ability to find or improvise weaponry, how many mates each has present and if either's girlfriend is there.
Consider that The Tau are more likely to make use of a thermoset plastic as a drinking cup, this counts against the human pint glass/beer bottle. Likewise I believe that a human may perhaps fight dirtier having had (through absorbed knowledge) some passing acquaintence with the Bar Brawl and it's methods.
Etc Etc.
N.b. I believe the higher ballistic skill of the tau would be offset in the bar environ due to the close nature of the combat and thus the human need not fear projectiles.

I need sleep.