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Spiney Norman
29-04-2010, 14:53
Ok, some questions on the Fear Elves rule in the O&G book, I've tried to explain them as simply as possible, but its not easy.

1. If two Goblin units, whose total US is more than twice the US of an elf unit, but individually are less than twice the US of said unit both charge the unit on the same turn do they take a fear test or not?

2. If two goblin units are in combat with one elf unit, and their combined US is more than twice the US of the elves, but the US of each individual unit is less than twice the elves US, do they fear the elves or not?

3. If a Goblin unit elects to charge an elf unit which is already in combat with another goblin unit and the total combined US of the two units is over twice the US of the elf unit, but the US of the charging goblin unit is not, does the charging unit have to take a fear test?

Memnos
29-04-2010, 14:58
Hmm... I would say the unambiguous wording of 'Any unit of goblins fears any unit of elves it does not outnumber 2 to 1.' would suggest they do fear it.

I could see the argument you're making and it makes sense. If I were an elf player, I'd let you do it. However, I understand the reasoning behind not allowing it.

A person could charge a goblin unit that wasn't in range if it were 'Add all goblins declaring a charge together'.

Spiney Norman
29-04-2010, 15:02
That rule gives us no end of problems. Last week one of my 25 NGs charged a unit of 12 sea guard, but clipped a fanatic half way through the charge and lost 4 models. My opponent then insisted I take a fear test half way through the charge...

Fortunately there was a GW staff member on hand to tell him not to be such an idiot.

rtunian
29-04-2010, 15:08
there is no rule, either in the brb or in the army book, that allows you to do what you are describing. therefore you may not do it. each unit tests individually and may not combine its unit strength with another unit's unit strength to exceed the threshhold for fear elves

your opponent played it wrong. you only test for fear in order to declare a charge. once the charge is declared, you're good.

L1qw1d
29-04-2010, 15:18
So they don't have to roll for fear during charge if the elves Stand & Shoot and wipe about a third of them? well, bully for them! (the store guy was modding a match and had them do it). I think the flank part makes sense- you're throwing more gobbys in for the kill. You're GOING to be outnumbering them at the end of the turn and the little boogers of doom KNOW that!

Edit: I LOVE the name! DIMSDALE!

T10
29-04-2010, 15:22
1. Both units test.

2. Both units are subject to fear of elves. However, they will only automatically break if the elves outnumber the combined units.

3. The charging unit must take a Fear test.

Count the unit strength of the individual goblin units to see if they fear each individual elf unit. A US 20 unit of goblins will not fear any of three units of US 10 units of elves each, and thus will not automatically break if defeated in close combat by those units.

-T10

T10
29-04-2010, 15:23
Fortunately there was a GW staff member on hand to tell him not to be such an idiot.

"Fortunately?" Surely you mean "surprisingly."

-T10

rtunian
29-04-2010, 17:24
So they don't have to roll for fear during charge if the elves Stand & Shoot and wipe about a third of them? well, bully for them!

if the elves stand & shoot & wipe out 1/3 of them, then no, they don't have to test for fear. this is because the psychology rules say that you have to test for fear in order to declare the charge in the first place. the goblins would, however, have to test for panic, as 1/3 casualties is more than the minimum 25% to trigger a panic test.



if a unit wishes to declare a charge against an enemy that causes fear, it must take a test to overcome its fear first. ... if the test is passed, the unit may declare the charge as normal

so, by the time the stand & shoot response is resolved, or by the time the charging goblins step on a fanatic as in the op, the time for declaring charges & taking fear tests has passed.



after you declare your charges, but before you measure whether chargers are within range, your opponent declares how each charged unit will respond.



If the volley fails to stop the enemy, the charge is then completed, while if the chargers Panic (see the psychology section) they will flee from this position.

o0-NattyMcFatty-0o
29-04-2010, 17:47
my answer to your question is as follows;
1. yes, they both take a fear test, they are treated as individual units when charging, similarly to the idea that two speperate unit strength 4 or less units charging a flank will NOT remove ranks; individual units.
2.No, once in combat, to work out if one foe outnumbers another foe you combine all of the units unit strength into one. This therefore means that if you have, lets say you have 1 units of 16 goblins and another unit of 22 goblins (i know they're small units but meh) and the elves have 18 spearmen. the unit of 16 would not be outnumbered by a fear causing enemies, as ALL unit strengths are added into a cumulative pool in combat, thus the combat resolution given for one side outnumbering the other.
3.yes, you would still have to take a fear test, the units only share there overall unit strength for the purposes of outnumbering the enemy once they are locked in the same combat as each other. hope this helps

FashaTheDog
29-04-2010, 17:58
That rule gives us no end of problems. Last week one of my 25 NGs charged a unit of 12 sea guard, but clipped a fanatic half way through the charge and lost 4 models. My opponent then insisted I take a fear test half way through the charge...

Fortunately there was a GW staff member on hand to tell him not to be such an idiot.

While instinct on the forums is to cry 'pics or it didn't happen' or make that surprisingly comment, I have to say that it is good to hear of a low level staffer using common sense and stopping shenanigans rather than being the cause of them.

rtunian
29-04-2010, 19:14
2.No, once in combat, to work out if one foe outnumbers another foe you combine all of the units unit strength into one. This therefore means that if you have, lets say you have 1 units of 16 goblins and another unit of 22 goblins (i know they're small units but meh) and the elves have 18 spearmen. the unit of 16 would not be outnumbered by a fear causing enemies, as ALL unit strengths are added into a cumulative pool in combat, thus the combat resolution given for one side outnumbering the other.

when you have lost combat and are taking break tests, each unit is considered individually, as each unit tests separately, and one unit can hold while another unit breaks. so, each individual goblin unit will fear the elves, but, because the elves do not have outnumber for the combat, they are not defeated by an outnumbering fear causer, and thus take a normal break test.

the fear elves rule applies on a unit-by-unit basis as evidenced by the last line of the rule itself:



count any orcs, squigs or anything else in the unit as well as the gobbos

coincidentally, this same sentence answers the question that often comes up about a unit of goblins led by an orc character and whether or not they fear elves... edit: also, a war machine with a bully would fear elves, since the fear elves rule includes orcs in the unit for us consideration, and the bully rules do not grant exclusion from fear elves... the size matters rules give bully crewed machines immunity to goblin panic, but not immunity to fear elves...

T10
30-04-2010, 12:57
2. If two goblin units are in combat with one elf unit, and their combined US is more than twice the US of the elves, but the US of each individual unit is less than twice the elves US, do they fear the elves or not?



To be crystal clear:

Each of the goblin units fears the elf unit.

(They do not automatically break because they are not outnumbered by fear-causing enemies.)

-T10

Urgat
01-05-2010, 17:14
"Fortunately?" Surely you mean "surprisingly."

-T10

Why? You test when you declare the charge, not when the charge is already off. If the gobs where more than twice as numerous as the elves, they don't need to fear half way through if they fall under the limit for whatever reason, they're already charging. The GW dude was right.

Agnar the Howler
01-05-2010, 17:37
Why? You test when you declare the charge, not when the charge is already off. If the gobs where more than twice as numerous as the elves, they don't need to fear half way through if they fall under the limit for whatever reason, they're already charging. The GW dude was right.

I think it was a joke comment based around how some staffers end up making the most ridiculous rule-based decisions ever, and it's surprising that one of them made a good call.

Urgat
01-05-2010, 17:46
Oh. Ah yeah, I get it know.
"goes and hide in a dark corner"