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kraken
29-04-2010, 13:53
I have only recently returned to playing my Eldar after quite along break ,and having got back into the swing of playing them now, started to catch up on the fluff I have missed in 4th and 5th ed.

So after a dig around in the new tyranid book I found the little almost missable entry stating that Maugan Ra single handedly beat down a tendril of the hive fleet ?!

I know he is also responsible for doing some incredibly Bad a** stuff.Well beyond the scope of even the most heroic marine (see Calgars avatar servoswatter tm).

As far as I was aware the phoenix lords are to the aspects what the Primarchs are to Marines , except they are truly immortal and have been laying the slap down for millennia .

So after having the revelation that Phoenix Lords are incredibly insanely awsome. I went to my Eldar codex to see about running one or two in some games.

Sadly GW seems to have dropped the ball again, Again space marine characters are better in every way, in fact the phoenix lords are somewhere between a bit Meh and outright cr*p and wont be seeing use in anything but friendly games for me , how did some of the most powerful non deity characters in the game background get such rubbish rules ?!

It also seems to me there is a recent fluffwriting trend which sees the Eldar getting slapped around by everyone , what's the deal ?

Sorry just seems like a bad time to come back into the hobby as an Eldar player although I am almost disgusted by how grateful I am to GW for the Fire prism/spinner release...

Lets hope the worm will turn.

I'm interested in both Eldar and non-eldar players opinions and perhaps thoughts feeling on how they should/will go in future.

Thanks

Max_Killfactor
29-04-2010, 14:41
I think they are too pricey for what they bring to the table... especially Asurmen. He's roughly equal to a landraider in points, but struggles against anything toughness 5+ and really doesn't bring much to his squad that a normal exarch wouldn't.

I'd like to see all of them drop in points and/or gain invulnerable saves.

I'm a former Eldar player (back in 2nd edition) and current Dark Eldar player.

Ba'al Starslayer
29-04-2010, 16:46
Fuegan is a good choice, and Karandras can shred lightly armoured foes... Asurmen is too many points and Jain-Zar (In my eyes) is too weak. The two Brothers are pretty good too, but my choice of 'Lords are Fuegan and Karandras.

Gwyidion
29-04-2010, 16:47
There is no "phoenix lords are a joke" option....

Hashmal
29-04-2010, 17:01
There is no "phoenix lords are a joke" option....

Basically.

There are a couple that aren't horrid. However, I cannot think of a reason why I'd ever take a Phoenix Lord, aside from a story battle.

Zaonite
29-04-2010, 17:36
What they need is what Hellebore has been saying for ages.
Aspect warriors need a squad leader, like a SM sergeant, and move Exarchs to HQ and make them ********** uber.
Then only allow Phoenix Lords in Apocalypse and make them look like chuck norris is their biological daddy.

Thoras
29-04-2010, 17:40
Personally,

- Give all of them Battle fate (the 4+ inv) not just Asurmen.
- Allow the desciples rule to allow them to take the relative aspect as a troops choice.
- Change some of their universal special rules they possess and make it so they apply to the squad they join,

Asurman - As he has lost his unique 4+, allow the unit he's with to use his BS for shooting (fluffy) or gives his squad the counter attack special rule.
Jain'zar - Furious charge to her squad
Fuegan - FNP to his squad
Baharrioth - Gives his squad hit and run (already present) and no scatter on deep strike
Maugan Ra - Gives his squad relentless
Karandras - Gives his squad Stealth (already present)

Alter some points costs as appropriate, job done.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
29-04-2010, 17:44
You're absolutely right, phoenix lords are like C'tan or primarchs: they're too powerful fluffwise for them to be properly useable in a standard game of 40k. I'd give the Phoenix lords some insane rules and an apocalypse data sheet.

Sildani
29-04-2010, 17:50
Zaonite: You mean Phoenix Lords?

There are three decent Lords - Maugan Ra, Jain Zar and Fuegan.

Ra has one of the most bad-@$$ minis ever made, has great range and damage potential with his Maugetar, and is Not Bad in CC. He's also the second cheapest.
Jain Zar can lay waste to anyone in CC, and is the cheapest. The less said about her mini, the better. I heard an evil trick where someone tucked her into a squad of Wraithguard - she gained their T6, and in return few, if any, wanted to assault them.
Finally, Fuegan has an 18" range melta, is a Str 5 MC in CC, and has Feel No Pain. Combined with Eternal Warrior and a 2+ save, he's very resilient. He also has a decent mini. He's also bloody expensive.

The fact is, none of them can hold much of a candle to Yriel. He's got identical Initiative, wounds anything on a 2+ with a power weapon, counts as Str 9 against vehicles, has 5 Attacks on the charge, the Eye of Wrath, is an Autarch (for Reserves shenanigans), and has an ***** invulnerable save. All for less than any of the Lords. I suppose his Doomed rule was supposed to balance that, but in one of the blessings 5th Ed. gave us, it doesn't really do squat.

So if Yriel is my benchmark, none of the Lords can reach it. Which is a crying shame.

Sunfang
29-04-2010, 18:12
The fact is, none of them can hold much of a candle to Yriel. He's got identical Initiative, wounds anything on a 2+ with a power weapon, counts as Str 9 against vehicles, has 5 Attacks on the charge, the Eye of Wrath, is an Autarch (for Reserves shenanigans), and has an ***** invulnerable save. All for less than any of the Lords. I suppose his Doomed rule was supposed to balance that, but in one of the blessings 5th Ed. gave us, it doesn't really do squat.

So if Yriel is my benchmark, none of the Lords can reach it. Which is a crying shame.

Completely agree with this.

Dwane Diblie
29-04-2010, 18:25
They are horrid at the mement. I think then need to be brought back inline with their 2ed counterparts. All need 4+ inv save and Asurman needs 3+ inv (or dare I say 2+) at the very least. My bigest problem with them is that they die way too easely.

Oh and while we are at it put farseers back to T4.

IGoblinego
29-04-2010, 19:48
I would like to see Shining spears Phoenix Lord, man it would rock.

GrogDaTyrant
29-04-2010, 20:20
I say give 'em a boost, provided they don't each become a ridiculously over the top 'no-brainer' choice. Autarchs and Farseers should be worth considering over Eldrad and the Pheonix Lords.

Mannimarco
29-04-2010, 20:39
Give them a boost, I know fluff should not = tabletop but it would be nice to see these mighty heroes of legend get their dues

Thud
29-04-2010, 21:12
They're crap.

I'd love to see them totally bad ass, Mephiston style.

AndrewGPaul
29-04-2010, 22:31
I always looked at the Avatar as being a Greater Daemon of Khaine. In that vein, the Phoenix Lords could be considered as the equivalents to the Daemonic Heralds in power. Perhaps at the level of a Daemon Prince.

Although, as Thud points out, OTT characters like Mephiston cock that up a bit.

kraken
29-04-2010, 23:42
They're crap.

I'd love to see them totally bad ass, Mephiston style.

Totally agree , but if we are leaning towards fluff then he is as a child to them .........

And really whats with the fething avatar getting his A** handed to him by every t*at in power armour that happens to bumble into him ....

thing is Avatars should have your opponents soiling their breaches and worrying about how they are going to deal with it .

On Yriel , he is blatantly the most badass of bad mortal eldar but he really should not be able to hold a candle to a phoenix lord , obviously someone in GW agrees Coz they are apparently able to walk into the eye of terror and survive and return with a fething craftworld not to mention that small incident with some tyranids ....

Maugan Ra = Chuck Norris with roid rage and a big gun .......

DoomedToRepeatIt
30-04-2010, 08:00
With the exception of Maugan Ra -- who, incidentally, is the only PL I own -- I also felt let down by the handling of their rules. Eternal Warrior helps, but they all really need an Invulnerable Save, and as has been previously mentioned, they need to seriously buttress the squads they're attached to. They're also mostly overcosted for what you get.

I'd like to see them get stat line buffs rather than extra rules; S4 T4 isn't enough in my book, especially when the first and oldest of them is one of, what, two? of them who doesn't get a strength boost from his CCW. I really like Thoras' suggestions, too, especially Ra giving Reapers Relentless. I'd certainly start taking them more often.

In regards to the Eldar getting their asses whooped a lot in the fluff lately, I think it mostly has something to do with the fact that the Eldar are one of the boogey-men of the setting. They appear from nowhere, whoop ass, and then leave with no one the wiser -- either that or make it so that everyone else kills each other to death -- so every now and then they need to get their peepee smacked to show that they aren't as superior as they think they are. As for the Avatar, I actually got mine in melee with Calgar once and splattered him across the landscape in, I think it was two turns. So I can only suggest writer's fiat for that one.

kraken
30-04-2010, 12:42
Yeah me and a friend from the club rolled that out recently , big glowy tends to slappeth the ubersmurf , it's even more laughable when you throw fortune on the big fella ;o)

I'd love to see a full on pumped up Avatar for apocalypse (yes I know about the current formations)

with the new trend for having special characters effect the squads they are in and army comp, I don't think it too much to expect that the Plords do the same, especially given their background.

Having maugan ra in some reapers is the equivalent of having leman russ with some wolfguard....