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Malorian
30-04-2010, 14:43
Now this isn't talking about the kind of people that won't do space marines vs space marines because it's 'boring', this is talking from a fluff background.

In the dwarf army book it says dwarfs will never fight each other and that in fact there isn't even a word for civil war in their language.

With this in mind would my fellow dwarf players out there ever refuse to play against another dwarf army for this reason? And even in a tournament?

FailSafe07
30-04-2010, 14:48
For my part, I think that fluff isn't the same as rules. You can consider it a training exercise or something. It does make it difficult from the point of view of creating a fluff-based story, but absolutely not during a tournament.

phoenixcrh
30-04-2010, 14:49
From a fluff point of view I suppose your right but I would reckon that alot of the grudges in the kron are against fellow dwarfs.

As in your GREAT grandfather owed my GREAT grandfather 10 tons of iron ore but never paid up, and now we have an ancient grudge or so and lets brawl scottish style lol.

I wouldnt refuse to play a fellow dawi but I can see the racial dishonour in it.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
30-04-2010, 14:54
I wouldn't... Mostly because there wouldn't be any close combat until turn 3:)

Artinam
30-04-2010, 15:00
Indeed see it as a training mission (Like in Flames of War, to explain Axis vs Axis battles)

Tymell
30-04-2010, 15:07
Indeed see it as a training mission (Like in Flames of War, to explain Axis vs Axis battles)

A good point, that sounds like a nice idea. You could also have one army as a Chaos Dwarf army before it actually went very Chaos-y, like how some space marine forces could represent traitor legions before they fully embraced Chaos.

I agree, it would be very rare, but within the game world your imagination rules, so if you can think of a reason then I say go for it. Certainly were I a Dwarf player I wouldn't refuse it or anything.

There was an article in White Dwarf a while back about same army battles and the reasons there could be for them, I'll have to have a look at that when I get home and see what it says about Dwarfs.

Coragus
30-04-2010, 15:11
1. You can't see an ancesteral grudge escalating to the point of open warfare?

2. Picture something like in one of the Drizzt books where the Dwarf community in a human colony get into a dispute over whether or not to leave for the newly opened stronghold. They fought each other over that.

Dantès
30-04-2010, 15:21
I wouldn't... Mostly because there wouldn't be any close combat until turn 3:)

Hahah don't you mean turn 5 or 6? They'd spend so much time trying to maneuver for a charge...forgetting rules for wheeling, reforms, etc, because it's been so long since they've actually moved a block :p

And Malorian, just call it a big paintball game! Dwarfs have to have fun somehow, right?

Oh, and the swords are Nerf swords :p

VonUber
30-04-2010, 15:39
I wouldnt, i just find same race vs each other games incredibly boring.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
30-04-2010, 15:50
Hahah don't you mean turn 5 or 6?

That depends on how far from each other they deploy... But seriously, dwarfs vs. dwarfs is a pretty boring set up... I mean, two gunlines against eachother...

Dantès
30-04-2010, 15:52
That depends on how far from each other they deploy... But seriously, dwarfs vs. dwarfs is a pretty boring set up... I mean, two gunlines against eachother...

Don't forget warriors...the 'mobile' element...will be moving towards eachother. Then they'll spend one turn getting into position, and then the inevitable one turn stare-down when both dwarf players REALLY want to pull off the infamous 'Dwarf charge' but aren't sure if they're quite in range.

Alltaken
30-04-2010, 16:04
They don't have civil war, true. But they mos obviuosly have a means to end discussions. I remember a comic where dwarfs tied their beards and fought to a beat down.

I guess the way they're brought up gives them a sense of union higher than internal grudges. Once settled the manner it's finally done. Where areas you wouldn't want a defeated DE enemy left alive for he will most surely backstab you when the chance allows it

Havock
30-04-2010, 16:13
"I win by one"
-Am am stubborn on Ld9
*rinse and repeat*

"I win by 2, you are not stubborn"
-I make this break test on 1d6.

Consider it a challenge for your patience :p

Vulcan7200
30-04-2010, 16:16
I agree with the idea of thinking it as training. Not really killing each other, but having a massive sparring contest. I'm sure to Dwarves, and friendly game of War, can't be too far fetched!

~PrometheuS~
30-04-2010, 16:19
I wouldnt, i just find same race vs each other games incredibly boring.

Skaven vs Skaven isnt boring

:D

Tactical Retreat!
30-04-2010, 16:30
One of the armies consists of chaos dwarfs in disguise trying to infiltrate a dwarf hold!

I don't play dwarfs vs. dwarfs for gameplay reasons. About 10% of both armies will die from shooting, and nothing else of importance happens during the game.

Griefbringer
30-04-2010, 16:47
Consider it a challenge for your patience :p

Especially if both sides in close combat are using hand weapons and shields - that would tend to result in pretty low casualties. :o

Avian
30-04-2010, 17:04
Dwarf players should fight each other more often, that way they will hopefully see how boring that can be. :cool:

Malorian
30-04-2010, 17:07
Skaven vs Skaven isnt boring

:D

Or orcs and goblins vs orcs and goblins :D

Novrain
30-04-2010, 17:08
esp given that dwarf warriors are usually strength 3 toughness 4....

hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's, armour at 3+ (HA, Sh, HW)
say 6 attacks (five models + champ), 3 hits, 1 wound, 0.3 wounds a turn.....


*dies a little inside at the thought*

Malorian
30-04-2010, 17:10
So basically most dwarf players out there are saying you can get around the fluff by saying it's training, but on the other hand it wouldn't make for an interesting game anyway.

Zinch
30-04-2010, 17:16
Hahah don't you mean turn 5 or 6? They'd spend so much time trying to maneuver for a charge...forgetting rules for wheeling, reforms, etc, because it's been so long since they've actually moved a block

Don't forget warriors...the 'mobile' element...will be moving towards eachother. Then they'll spend one turn getting into position, and then the inevitable one turn stare-down when both dwarf players REALLY want to pull off the infamous 'Dwarf charge' but aren't sure if they're quite in range.

Dantès have made my day :D

I've been collecting and playing Dwarfs since 5th edition... I just LOVE them... and now a friend wants to collect dwarfs as its first army... I HAVE to dissuade him somehow!

I'll hate playing Dwarfs vs Dwarfs for a fluff reason and even more for a playing reason!
Units of dwarfs are designed to receive a charge and hold... nothing else! (You can make an agressive dwarf army, but try against another dwarf army...)
The best strategy in such a battle would be maxing the number of warmachines and hold a pair of units behind for the miners... Not a very fun game...

Malorian
30-04-2010, 17:23
I've been collecting and playing Dwarfs since 5th edition... I just LOVE them... and now a friend wants to collect dwarfs as its first army... I HAVE to dissuade him somehow!

Either that or you could start a new army ;)

dragonlancr
30-04-2010, 17:34
In Deamonslayer by William King (a MUST read) one dwarven warband was about to kill another because they thought they had been corrupted by the chaos wastes. On another occasion, they debate killing them because they are going to break a big oath.

So, if I would try to immerse myself in the idea, it would be an army against another that broke a big oath or that my dwarves thought they had been corrupted by the Chaos wastes and would soon become demons/beasts and we were regrettably trying to stop it from happening before it was too late.

dragonlancr
30-04-2010, 17:36
Not to mention that from the book as well, the fastest way to a dwarf versus dwarf showdown is to throw around the word "liar." That will get two dwarf warbands mad at each other in a hurry.

Tymell
30-04-2010, 17:38
I found that White Dwarf article, here's what it has to say on the matter:


In general, the Dwarven race is mercifully free from civil unrest among its people. However, just as with the High Elves and their dark kin, the Druchii, the Dwarfs could be seen as having mortal enemies who were once their brothers. However, among their own people, Dwarfs are renowned for their inability to let a slur on their person, family or clan pass. These then become infamous grudges. Some are rightly deserved and recorded in the Great Book of Grudges held within Karaz-a-Karak, the Ancient Dwarf capital.

So, as has been mentioned, Chaos Dwarfs and grudges provide potential reasons for Dwarf vs. Dwarf games.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
30-04-2010, 17:55
Isn't Unbaraki the meanest word you can say to a dwarf? I would start a war if someone called me Oathbreaker:shifty:

spetswalshe
30-04-2010, 17:57
With such a two-dimensional species it's easy to forget, but there are Dwarfs out there who are complete jackasses, and not all of them wear big hats. Karak A's political manoeuvring might threaten Karak B's tasty trade treaties with Marienburg, and Karak B might be led by a noble family crafty enough to tell his hold-brethren that Karak A harbour Elves and had a big party where they made fun of Karak B's mothers. Dwarfs can't take insults without resorting to violence; all it takes is for an envoy to soak his beard in ale and drunkenly stagger into one of the ever-present torches (it's pretty dark underground) and it's all 'oh no they shaved our envoy!' and axes at dawn.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
30-04-2010, 18:05
With such a two-dimensional species it's easy to forget, but there are Dwarfs out there who are complete jackasses, and not all of them wear big hats. Karak A's political manoeuvring might threaten Karak B's tasty trade treaties with Marienburg, and Karak B might be led by a noble family crafty enough to tell his hold-brethren that Karak A harbour Elves and had a big party where they made fun of Karak B's mothers. Dwarfs can't take insults without resorting to violence; all it takes is for an envoy to soak his beard in ale and drunkenly stagger into one of the ever-present torches (it's pretty dark underground) and it's all 'oh no they shaved our envoy!' and axes at dawn.

That made my day:D:D:D

And don't forget, Karak C probably sent a envoy to each of the holds to prevent the war, but instead made them start it since they realized that Karak C's dwarfs had heard about Karak B's envoys shaving and thought they had to prove that they weren't easy-shaved beardlings and wanted to split zum skulls from Karak A;)

grumbaki
30-04-2010, 18:22
I did a dwarf v dwarf battle before. To myself, I rationalized it as one side being chaos dwarves. When you think of it as Dawi v. Dawi Zhar, then the entire thing becomes much more palatable.

Avian
30-04-2010, 18:37
I did a dwarf v dwarf battle before. To myself, I rationalized it as one side being chaos dwarves.
Your lot or the other lot, and did they agree? ;)

zeebie
30-04-2010, 21:35
in a friendly game I would find it hard to play against another dwarf, as half the fun of warhammer is to create my own fluff around my army (each character has a backstory etc). I don't think I could justify a training mission, as it seems undwarf like, remembering most of dwarfs would much rather being doing their day job or getting drunk.
I also don't want to think of dwarf warrior vs Ironbreaker battles..

Harwammer
30-04-2010, 22:13
The board could represent a gigantic beer hall; The battle is just a traditional pub punch up (no doubt caused by some terrible insult or slur on an upstanding dwarf's heritage)!

Clansmen throwing punches, Quarellers throwing their tankards and warmachine crews throwing the furniture!

zeebie
30-04-2010, 22:25
The board could represent a gigantic beer hall; The battle is just a traditional pub punch up (no doubt caused by some terrible insult or slur on an upstanding dwarf's heritage)!

Clansmen throwing punches, Quarellers throwing their tankards and warmachine crews throwing the furniture!

nah war machines would have to be throwing some kegs, there even warmachine crew that looks like he's carrying a keg

Troah
30-04-2010, 22:43
One of the armies consists of chaos dwarfs in disguise trying to infiltrate a dwarf hold!

I don't play dwarfs vs. dwarfs for gameplay reasons. About 10% of both armies will die from shooting, and nothing else of importance happens during the game.

Silly thought...you could be go non-shooty, ever think of that?

Zinch
01-05-2010, 00:16
Fielding an aggresive Dwarf army against another Dwarf army is a suicide at least...:(

You'll be trying to cross the battlefield with your M3 expensive infantry blocks against an army full of war machines and shoting units (because if he knows he'll be playing against dwarves will field this, don't doubt it), to charge on your 4th turn (in the best case) only to see how they 2-3 blocks hold your weakened units against the charge and even maybe win you... Dwarf blocks are designed for this!

The only danger for him will be the miners... maybe 4 units of 20 miners will be the answer... :)

ftayl5
01-05-2010, 03:16
It'd be boring too, combat would start in like turn 5, if a tall. I did a VC vs VC game, was awful, people complain about psychology but man, ever played without it?

zeebie
01-05-2010, 09:25
I don't know if both sides bring an anvil, and use rune that lets you move before first turn, and took a unit of rangers and some miners with a steam drill you would have alot of combat going on rather early. Dwarfs don't have to be played as gunlines or slow moving.

gryo, would be fun as well.

Ancre
01-05-2010, 10:34
I think you can always find a way to go 'around' the fluff to play whatever you want. For example (made in 5 minutes without a good knowledge of the dwarf society) : after a happy raid against skaven/orcs'n'goblins/ghouls/really evil things underneath, in which dwarf group A and dwarf group B successfully reconquered some lower halls of their city (and the treasures still sealed & hidden inside it), everything strangely degenerates because of some strange "northern star" gem both leaders claim as being part of their great grand father's inheritage.

The Clairvoyant
01-05-2010, 11:19
I did a VC vs VC game, was awful, people complain about psychology but man, ever played without it?

My VC vs Cult of Slaanesh back in 6th. Skeletons sure are expensive when fear doesn't do anything!

MalusCalibur
01-05-2010, 12:54
To all those saying how boring Dwarf vs Dwarf games would be, I have to protest. I played such a game in a local tournament once, and it was one of the more enjoyable games I had. Both sides met in the middle of the field around turn 3 (because we both advanced our infantry), and while that fight tensely went on, little seperate battles centered around our more mobile troops and Anvils (Not Thorek, I might add) went back and forth.

It was a Draw in the end, though.

Bran Dawri
01-05-2010, 18:31
I usually consider dwarf vs dwarf games essentially a huge tavern brawl - everybody's rushing to get at the beer in the centre :-P.

Angelwing
02-05-2010, 07:56
It'd be boring too, combat would start in like turn 5, if a tall. I did a VC vs VC game, was awful, people complain about psychology but man, ever played without it?

To be honest most of my games when I'm using my undead feature no psychology as the vast majority of my opponents had LD10 and / or Immune to psychology across the board. It's very rare anyone actually failed a test.

And yes I'd happily let 2 dwarf players play each other so they can share the pain! :p

yabbadabba
02-05-2010, 08:28
Just do it Malorian and stop messing about :D

Kaan
03-05-2010, 04:11
If another clan owed my clan 1 gold piece and hadn't paid up, I'd be marching off the my clansmen to collect. And if they refuse to pay.......well, honoring one's debts is a big deal to dwarves....and the offending party should realize this.

zeebie
03-05-2010, 10:20
If another clan owed my clan 1 gold piece and hadn't paid up, I'd be marching off the my clansmen to collect. And if they refuse to pay.......well, honoring one's debts is a big deal to dwarves....and the offending party should realize this.

that's not very dwarf like at all.

dwarfs believe in duty first and then honor (as shown by the slayer king).
if another clan owed you gold and couldn't pay up, they would be an oathbreaker and would most likely become a slayer. Also dwarfs have a duty to their race not to fight each other. Therefore it's extremely difficult to fluff a reason for them to have a serious fight.

you would just have to accept your having the game because you have to, not because it fit's with fluff

theunwantedbeing
03-05-2010, 10:29
From a fluff point of view, best to assume its just some sort of ancestral grudge that's got wildly out of hand. Or beer or gold is involved, both make dwarves act a bit strange.

From a gaming standpoint, its only boring if:
-one side sits back and waits for the other to reach them

eg. If neither play plays like a typical boring dwarf

Assuming both sides actually play properly (ie. neither side sits back and shoots) then you can get quite an interesting game going.

Harwammer
03-05-2010, 11:58
Or beer or gold is involved, both make dwarves act a bit strange.

Going back to the beer-hall/tavern theory several folks have suggested perhaps the reason beer / gold is involved is because the dwarf clans are arguing over whose round it is!

zeebie
03-05-2010, 14:51
you know the bar room brawl has got out of hand when a runesmith brings out the anvil of doom.

I guess you would need a no gyro rule, as it would smash into the roof

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
03-05-2010, 14:57
you know the bar room brawl has got out of hand when a runesmith brings out the anvil of doom.

I guess you would need a no gyro rule, as it would smash into the roof

Ha, that comment made my day!:D

Zweischneid
03-05-2010, 15:11
that's not very dwarf like at all.

dwarfs believe in duty first and then honor (as shown by the slayer king).
if another clan owed you gold and couldn't pay up, they would be an oathbreaker and would most likely become a slayer. Also dwarfs have a duty to their race not to fight each other. Therefore it's extremely difficult to fluff a reason for them to have a serious fight.

you would just have to accept your having the game because you have to, not because it fit's with fluff



"All dwarfs are by nature dutiful, serious, literate, obedient and thoughtful people whose only minor failing is a tendency, after one drink, to rush at enemies screaming “Arrrrrrgh!” and axing their legs off at the knee."

— (Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!)

Zilverug
04-05-2010, 08:59
Maybe Dwarf versus Dwarf games should be an automatic draw.
Saves time as well.

Overlord Krycis
05-05-2010, 14:27
One of the armies consists of chaos dwarfs in disguise trying to infiltrate a dwarf hold!


That's just silly...it's really the Alpha Legion finally making it to Warhammer world.
:shifty: ;) :D

OT: I actually quite like Dwarf vs Dwarf...must be the lack of gun-lines round here.

TeddyC
05-05-2010, 19:59
For my part, I think that fluff isn't the same as rules. You can consider it a training exercise or something. It does make it difficult from the point of view of creating a fluff-based story, but absolutely not during a tournament.

True, theres always a way to think around it....

I tend to think my freindly games are meant to be narrative storys with themed armies sticking rigidly to the fluff. Thats how my group plays, and has always played.

tourny lists are the same but I wouldnt have a problem playing dwarfs vs dwarfs in that context as its a test of me vs you..... not dwarfs vs <insert army>... does that make sense?

To apply it another way.... if it was a computer game and I wanna play as Ilkeston Town (the Red Robins)... I wouldnt take them to a Fifa tourney and refuse to play anyone whos above them in terms of leagues because 'it would never happen'... i may however... if it was round a mates house either a) not play or b) choose a different team if he insisted on playing ManU against the minnows from Blue Square north (if they were in fifa!)

FWIW.... i think there should be more rules to encourage people to stick to fluff. i.e. nurgle and tzeentch daemons never fighting as allies without massive penalties, certain general types bestowing bonuses and penalties (I pick a Engineer character to lead my army, I may get cheaper guns but my knights/cavalry/special units cost more/cant take them).... that sort of thing.

Botjer
06-05-2010, 09:11
I tend to take the fluff with a pinch of salt.
To me it represents the way a diplomat would confer the image of his people.

noooo.... we never have any civil wars, we dont even have word for it...

Maybe they do have infighting but they more see it as settling disputes than actual wars.