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reign beaux
01-05-2010, 11:40
hey guys
sorry for posting another DE thread but i am playing in a 2250 tournament open list so there are no surprises etc we know who has what and what everything does. anyway i was planning to use the following unit
10 black guard with asf banner and ring of hotek full com
dreadlord with ring of darkness crimson death and armour of eternal servitude
front rank 5 bg and dread back rank 5 bg
effectively if the unit is targeted by magic then they will miscast on any double, any shooting at the unit is at half BS and in combat they strike first with 11 ws 5 str 4 re roll hits and 4 ws 7 str 6 hits and any attacks against the dreadlord are at half WS.
i was wondering whether you guys think that this is reasonable as an anvil or whether it was going to far
i am against the pendant on moral grounds although the tourney like all in known for hard lists.
anyway i was also wondering whether i should just take a great weapon on the dread instead of crimson any thoughts welcome.

Heimagoblin
01-05-2010, 12:30
I use:

20 black guard, command, asf banner, soul render on champion.
Dreadlord with ring of darkness, pendant and null talisman, great weapon heavy armour, sea dragon cloak
Bsb with ring of hotek, armour of darkness and great weapon.

Thats 10 str 6 high ws attacks and 8 str 4 atttacks before anyone else gets to strike on a unit which you are at half bs to shoot, has a ring near and has mr1 aswell as scr of 5

reign beaux
01-05-2010, 12:33
nice but isn't that 3 talismans on the one dreadlord??

Chaos Dude
01-05-2010, 12:46
As a rule of thumb Black Guards should always be deployed with 7 in the front rank to maximize their attacks. And I would porbably make your unit a bit bigger, around 14 usually works great.

Woodsman
01-05-2010, 13:27
I use:

20 black guard, command, asf banner, soul render on champion.
Dreadlord with ring of darkness, pendant and null talisman, great weapon heavy armour, sea dragon cloak
Bsb with ring of hotek, armour of darkness and great weapon.



How many points is that unit total?

Vsurma
01-05-2010, 13:59
as you are already spending so many points on the items and heroes, you may as well increase the size of the actual unit, at that point the extra cost is well worth it.

The unit is still going to take heavy losses from template weapons and impact hits so you want to make sure you have enough models to keep the unit hitting hard.

Knifeparty
01-05-2010, 15:02
nice but isn't that 3 talismans on the one dreadlord??

Yes, your Dreadlord build is Illegal Heimagoblin.

Black Guard Death Stars are all well and good the only thing is I see people stacking the unit too much.

If you put too many eggs in one basket, a smart opponent will simply play a denial game against you and march block you the whole game whilst shooting, and magic missiling you to death until your black guard are all dead and you characters are no longer stubborn.

I usually run:

17 Black guard with a Dreadlord, 6 wide 3 deep. Standard of Hag Graef, and Champ has Crimson Death. I don't put the Ring of Hotek on this unit because it's too obvious, and thats the first person they want to snipe out. I actually give my Cold on Knight Champion the Ring and keep that unit close by for flank charges.

Dreadlord Has: Armour of Darkness, Pendant of Khaleth, and Soul Render. Sometimes I like to give him Divine eye or Gem of Nightmares too if im up against a certain opponent.

Black Guard is always buffed by a Cauldron of Blood.

Gaargod
01-05-2010, 19:16
Ring, unless you're really short on points, can happily sit on a hero. Using it on a champion is nice, but does mean sometime can easily kill your ring off (suicide charges, rule of burning iron/hochlands). It does eat a talisman slot but: Master with great weapon, armour of darkness and ring is fairly tough - sitting in ASF BG, they will rip shred stuff. For added fun, make him a BSB if you don't have one for some weird reason. Dreadlord is, frankly, overkill - use him to support other units (or create a BIG deathstar)

Get at least 14 BG. Expect most opponents to wipe out a minimum of 7 before you even reach combat - they're astonishingly easy to kill at T3 5+ save, even with ring of darkness (templates of all kind will remove multiple models at a go).

gork or maybe mork
01-05-2010, 21:06
The original unit seems rather vulnerable to artillery and other ranged attacks that dont use bs. Also, wouldn't a chariot or two completely wreck the unit

shinankoku
02-05-2010, 04:13
I agree with Gaargod, put ring on someone else, not the guy in the unit. I disagree with gork/mork. Well, ok, i do agree with him, shooting, magic, whatnot will wipe this unit's collective butt with a chainsaw but c'est la vie! If this unit were 100% indestructible, there would be no reason to play in the first place, no? That's why you have other units to support these guys: reapers and xbows to help widdle down enemy fire, fast cav to tqke the fight to enemy chariots, etc. I personally like to stick an assassin in my DStar unit, just to soup up the killiness. I like the rune of khaine, and the manbane: kills Big Things. If you have undead players in your tourney, consider the Venom Sword to help deal with ethereals.

reign beaux
02-05-2010, 11:06
cheers for the feedback every one
ok i have a bsb on manti with standard of slaughter lance heavy armour sea dragon cloak and shield use the lance in combat and the shield when being shot at its my favourite unit in the army as it flys round chopping small units and flanking very well so i wouldn't put a bsb in the Bg. i could put a master in there if i rejig a few things and give him the ring and a gw give the bg champ crimson or soul render and the dready a gw and make the unit a bit bigger just out of curiosity how many sorcs do you guys tend to use?

Heimagoblin
02-05-2010, 20:00
If you like it you should put a ring on it.

Heimagoblin
02-05-2010, 20:07
If you like it you should put a ring on it.

ooglatjama
02-05-2010, 20:33
That's so expensive, that it isn't that nasty

Kalandros
02-05-2010, 20:36
I guess people use Crimson Death on another character? Soul Render on a Black Guard only makes him S5 AP, instead of S6.

Havock
02-05-2010, 22:43
Crimson death is good, but so is the whip of agony ;)

SatireSphere
03-05-2010, 04:46
That's so expensive, that it isn't that nasty

It can easily take out literally twice it's points in combat in a lot of cases, though.

WusteGeist
03-05-2010, 05:21
Whip of agony is weak sauce. Crimson death is not only the same save modifier but also st6 all the time instead of st5. As to the OP. You are rather brave running the unit so small. Just because you halve the shooting skill of those that shoot at you do not mean you wont take hits. Black guard need more bodies to soak up more hits. As to ring of hotek alone, I really advise you take at least 2 null stones. Flicker fire and bubose love a ring only unit, as they sneak in so very easy.

Woodsman
03-05-2010, 10:37
It can easily take out literally twice it's points in combat in a lot of cases, though.

Any all cav army will avoid it and vamps will just tarpit it.

A gunline will still generate enough shots to take it down to manageable levels.

Not a huge fan of infantry deathstars.

Havock
03-05-2010, 14:47
Whip of agony is weak sauce. Crimson death is not only the same save modifier but also st6 all the time instead of st5. As to the OP. You are rather brave running the unit so small. Just because you halve the shooting skill of those that shoot at you do not mean you wont take hits. Black guard need more bodies to soak up more hits. As to ring of hotek alone, I really advise you take at least 2 null stones. Flicker fire and bubose love a ring only unit, as they sneak in so very easy.

Except that whip of agony, being a beastmaster's whip -and by extension a handweapon- gives you an additional attack.

SatireSphere
03-05-2010, 21:33
Any all cav army will avoid it and vamps will just tarpit it.

A gunline will still generate enough shots to take it down to manageable levels.

Not a huge fan of infantry deathstars.

When they have this many points invested in one squad, you can't really avoid it unless you just want to play for a draw. Points denial is really unfortunate that way.

An army build around that unit is probably full of dark riders, shades and reaper bolt throwers.

VonUber
03-05-2010, 21:48
This is coming from a dark elf player whos allways loved black guard.
A unit of 20 is too costly in 2250pt games and a unit of 10 is to easly handled. I worked out a unit of 15 is perfect. usualy theres no point giving them the ASF banner as there I6 and M5 so your going to be doing the charging. HOW EVER, this is a torny list so I guess you will come across HEs so the banner is needed. The unit champion is better off having the ring of hotec, it gives you some magic cover and you can get the champion killed when your ready to start doing some close range nuking.
Thats a good road block that isnt easy to get rid of on its own, but you have to rember thats 60pts sunk into magic items. Its a huge cost. So you need to make that unit count.

And as for the dread lord, i find the executioners axe, blood armour and SDC is a horrific combo in that unit, even a pair of handbows is a fun giggle when you fire out 4S3 shots and take off a rank bonus xD. Then the oponent charges (hopefully a chaos lord) and the dread lord steaps foward and hits him at S10 and doing D3 wounds.

Woodsman
03-05-2010, 22:54
When they have this many points invested in one squad, you can't really avoid it unless you just want to play for a draw. Points denial is really unfortunate that way.

An army build around that unit is probably full of dark riders, shades and reaper bolt throwers.

Thats how you play against death stars.

Turn 6 I might try for a rear/flank charge with something.

And shooting will take a few models down.

TheDarkDaff
04-05-2010, 05:50
Except that whip of agony, being a beastmaster's whip -and by extension a handweapon- gives you an additional attack.

You're wrong there. By virtue of it being a Magic Weapon you have to use it as your sole close combat weapon (BRB, pg121). What you can do is use it with a shield and get the extra +1 AS as the Whip of Agony is a hand weapon.

nobsb
04-05-2010, 06:01
Is there a composition score in this tourney? If there is bringing that will get you a comp. score of zero. :(

Havock
04-05-2010, 13:32
You're wrong there. By virtue of it being a Magic Weapon you have to use it as your sole close combat weapon (BRB, pg121). What you can do is use it with a shield and get the extra +1 AS as the Whip of Agony is a hand weapon.

Wasn't that errata'ed? It seems silly to give something a 'beastmaster's whip' rule if the only thing you can use it with is a shield. Also, the dagger of hotek.

These two weapons scream 'extra attack', at least it makes them -well, okay, just the whip- viable choices :)

TheDarkDaff
05-05-2010, 03:46
Wasn't that errata'ed? It seems silly to give something a 'beastmaster's whip' rule if the only thing you can use it with is a shield. Also, the dagger of hotek.

These two weapons scream 'extra attack', at least it makes them -well, okay, just the whip- viable choices :)

The Dagger is a special case because it is specifically allows you to use a normal hand weapon in conjuction with it. You could use a normal Beastmasters Scourge (which is also a hand weapon) to get AP but can't use it with the Whip of Agony (as it is a magic weapon in addition to being a Beastmasters scourge).

BTW - i agree it would be nice to be able to use the Whip of Agony with an additional handweapon but then you really should have some special rules in place to make you use the hand weapon (with no special rules) for at least 1 of the models attacks. That was the precedent set with Hellebron and the old version of Kouran with his Blade of Ensorcelled Iron and extra hand weapon (this is going back a few editions).

Havock
05-05-2010, 12:24
I thought magic weapons were 'one handed weapons' (ie. no 'hand weapons') unless otherwise specified. So if some magic weapon had the 'hand weapon' rule. Or in this case, beastmaster's scourge (which explicitly states you can use it as an additional handweapon), you'd get the accompanying advantages.

TheDarkDaff
05-05-2010, 23:54
It's a little bit more tricky than that but you have the basics right. Magic Weapons are just one handed weapons unless specified otherwise but the fact that a magic weapon is a hand weapon still doesn't override the rule on pg 121 that you use the Magic Weapon as you sole weapon choice.

So what we have is:
a) Magic Weapons don't have mundane properties unless told otherwise
b) If you have a Magic weapon you have to use it as your sole weapon choice in combat
c) The Whip of Agony (magic beastmaster scourge) and Dagger of Hotek are considered to be "Hand Weapons"
d) The Dagger of Hotek has a specific exemption that allows it to be used with a mundane hand weapon, which other magic hand weapons lack

It basically boils down to the rule about you Magic Weapon being your only choice to use in combat. The Dagger allows you to break this rule while other magic weapons don't.

EDIT:
I thought i would add the quote from the BRB i am refering to.

A character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons, although it can carry a shield as normal.

tmarichards
06-05-2010, 05:23
I've found a very succesful Black Guard unit to be 13 BG, with a champion with Crimson Death and the Banner of Murder on the standard bearer. No musician, never needed one. Then a BSB with heavy armour, SDC and a great weapon with the ASF banner.

I've run this at a couple of comped UK tournaments with good results, most of the time I either hide them for a fair while (keeping a lot of points safe) or when they do come out, I use 2 units each of harpies and dark riders, as well as a pair of RBTs, to tie-up threats, and I use a chariot and a hydra in order to present multiple targets. A fair bit of magic defence (5 dice and 2 scrolls) is necessary, as the Ring is usually comped out.

It can be very vulnerable, but more often than not it's performed admirably, even against armies like High Elves and Wood Elves who have a lot of shooting.

Lord Dan
06-05-2010, 06:01
Ah, the BG deathstar. A good friend to trebuchets, lobbas, cannons, doom divers, mortars, scrap launchers, engine of the gods, plague furnaces, flame cannons, organ guns, blunderbusses, strangle roots, screaming catapults, hellcannons, and chariots everywhere.

Keep an eye out.

EndlessBug
06-05-2010, 09:16
wouldn't even be that afraid of it in combat.

the hero has a whopping 5+ save, sure 3 S6 attacks, but against any other hero with a decent save you'll get munched.

Better setup as has been said is:

Master - Ring of Hotek, Armour of Darkness, great weapon
13 Black Guard - FC, Crimson Death, Banner of Hag Graef

Now that's a beast in combat!

sure shooting with Ballistic skill can hurt it, but tbh there's not THAT much of that.

also get a cauldron of Blood BSB to make it super hard, 5+ ward while getting to combat and +1 attack or Killing blow when in combat.

reign beaux
06-05-2010, 10:58
cheers all
i had initially thought about the executioner's axe blood armour dready i am definately going to buff the unit to atleast 13 plus the dread but i'm still open to any and all ideas

TheSanityAssassin
06-05-2010, 22:39
10 is just too few. A good chariot charge by even a light-ish chariot will devastate a big part of your army.