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senorcardgage
01-05-2010, 21:53
Hey guys,

With all the talk of the move from 7th to 8th edition, I was left wondering "what significant changes were made in 7th edition?"

I don't believe I played in 6th and I'm just curious if the rumored rule changes are huge with respect to older rules revisions.

Thanks

Zaustus
01-05-2010, 21:56
The rumored changes are huge in comparison to the 6th-7th changes. From what I've read, though, 5th-6th was a massive revision even more dramatic than the current rumors for 8th.

sssk
01-05-2010, 22:01
6th to 7th was more "tweaking" the rules than doing anything spectacular to them. There was nothing groundbreakingly new, just twiddling things like targetting lone characters outside units and the like.

If the rumours are to be believed (though they still seem rather vague considering it's only a few months off) 7th to 8th is going to be a much much much much much larger shake up. People have suggested that only 20% (if that) of the changes to the rules have even been suggested in the rumours section, and considering there are a few threads there which are massive, it seems like we may well be effectively playing a different game after the summer.

I believe 5th - 6th was a major overhaul of the rules too, but I only started playing fantasy right at the start of 6th, so I can't really comment on that.

Desert Rain
01-05-2010, 22:02
7th is more like 6.5 since there was no drastic changes, just some minor ones. One of the bigger ones was that wizards got there own pool of PD instead of contributing to an army wide pool that everyone could use.

Lord Shadowheart
01-05-2010, 23:15
Another biggish change was the need to have 5 models for a rank bonus, as opposed to 4.

Arnizipal
02-05-2010, 00:26
Here's some things that changed from 6th to 7th (there are probably more though):

Panic and terror ranges were standardized to 6".
You are now allowed to flee through units instead of having to go around them.
The Lapping Round rule was dropped.
Psychology of the rider is now passed on to its steed.
Units in close combat don't take Fear/Terror/Panic/Stupidity - tests anymore.
Magic dice generated by a mage are now only useable by that mage instead of going in the dice pool.
The Defended Obstacle rule was weakened to just losing charge bonusses instead of rolling 6'es to hit.
Building rules were seriously revised.
Siege rules were dropped.
5 models per rank are now needed to gain rank bonus instead of 4.
Having both a regular banner and a Battle Standard Banner now gives you +2 combat result instead of just +1.
Regeneration became like a ward save with extra downsides.
Double handed weapons give only +1S when used while mounted
Fleeing Battle Standard Bearers will now drop their standard just like an ordinary Standard Bearer.
When you roll double 1 for a break test, it now automatically succeeds no matter how bad you lost or if you were outnumbered by a fear causing enemy.



EDIT: A couple of years ago I did a full list of the changes between 5th and 7th in a fit of boredom. You can see the result here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1414817).

senorcardgage
02-05-2010, 02:55
Great review, Arnizipal, thanks!

willowdark
02-05-2010, 17:42
Skirmishers in 6th ed couldn't be march blocked. That was a big one around my group.

Scythe
03-05-2010, 08:58
The rumored changes are huge in comparison to the 6th-7th changes. From what I've read, though, 5th-6th was a massive revision even more dramatic than the current rumors for 8th.

Depends on how you look at it. All 5th edition army books were dropped when 6th edition arrived, and profiles were drastically cut back (especially on characters and monsters). The magic phase was practically rewritten from scratch.

However, the core rules of the game remained largely unchanged. Movement, shooting and combat of 6th edition were, with a few tweaks here and there, similar to 5th edition. The changes 8th edition is rumoured to make here (free maneuvering; no more turns, wheels, etc, fight in two ranks, change of charge mechanic and bonusses, shoot in two ranks, and so on) have a much wider impact in that aspect.

vinush
03-05-2010, 12:04
From what I've been lead to believe, 8th Edition is an entirely new game compared to 7th Edition.

Players will need to forget all of the previous priorities they had for the game (movement being the most important phase to get the charge off and fight first, etc.) and prepare for something all together different.

If we're to believe that 3000 points is now the standard size for a game (according to the rulebook) compared to the current 2000 points of 7th edition, I see smaller games becoming almost extinct (a sad thing for me and my friends as we don't often have the time to play a full 2000 point game at the minute so stick to 1000 or 1500 as a maximum).

With the emphasis seemingly on larger units with a frontage of 10, etc, then the importance of the movement phase will change (outmanouvreing enemy units becoming almost extinct) and presumably a new phase will take precedence...

THE \/ince

Kayosiv
03-05-2010, 12:35
None of that sounds like a game I want to play =(

Alikar
03-05-2010, 12:42
If we're to believe that 3000 points is now the standard size for a game (according to the rulebook) compared to the current 2000 points of 7th edition...

I think this really depends on if they are simply re costing things. I mean if you have things in the game system that are worth 1/2 points then maybe you need to expand the point value of everything.

If they are doing an RH style list then they could be repricing everything. However, if the standard game size is 3000. Then I might as well stop buying minis now for the system. I'm slowly working my way up the insane 2250. Another 750 would simply break me.

Scythe
03-05-2010, 13:24
With the emphasis seemingly on larger units with a frontage of 10, etc, then the importance of the movement phase will change (outmanouvreing enemy units becoming almost extinct) and presumably a new phase will take precedence...


Depends... don't forget maneuverability is supposed to go up due to some other rumours (eg, freely moving your movement in any direction you desire), which might offset a bit of the reduced maneuverability that comes with a wider frontage.

Additionally, you might see more movement variants, like outflank in 40k.

Kevlar
03-05-2010, 13:26
I think this really depends on if they are simply re costing things. I mean if you have things in the game system that are worth 1/2 points then maybe you need to expand the point value of everything.

If they are doing an RH style list then they could be repricing everything. However, if the standard game size is 3000. Then I might as well stop buying minis now for the system. I'm slowly working my way up the insane 2250. Another 750 would simply break me.

They really are ruining the game with the insane increase in model counts. And with the 8th rumors sounds like it will only get worse. Games already take forever to play, I can't imagine they will get any shorter.

Gaargod
03-05-2010, 15:49
None of that sounds like a game I want to play =(

Ha. Quoted for bloody truth.

Ignoring herohammer of 5th (if you took actual balanced armies, it was fine), Warhammer fantasy = movement. Yes, if people take abusive armies its less important (watch my deathstar/gunline not care), but balanced armies and scenarios mean movement is everything. When the difference between winning and losing a game is 1/2 an inch... it counts.

Genuinely, my group is considering sticking to 7th ed for quite a while. Apart from anything else, sheer size is a major consideration, as playing a 3k battle on a 6x4 isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. I can easily stick a decent 3k army on the table, but why would i want to when there's so much less to it?
Also... getting slightly worried by magic rumours. Its meant to be toned down, but Lv4 wizards are looking more and more nuts (i.e. watch my slann bitchslap your army. By himself).

Zaustus
03-05-2010, 15:56
All this talk about 3k being the new standard game size baffles me. Each tournament will still have to choose its game size, and even that doesn't matter unless you're prepping for it or playing in it. If you don't want to play 3k, then don't. It's as simple as that.

RichBlake
03-05-2010, 19:52
They really are ruining the game with the insane increase in model counts. And with the 8th rumors sounds like it will only get worse. Games already take forever to play, I can't imagine they will get any shorter.

Oh I don't know.

One of the things that dissapointed me about Fantasy is that, in theory, you control "Regiments" not "units". Now I'm not a military man but I'm sure 10 spearmen with no leader, musician or standard is not a "Regiment" as such.

In the current game when do you see massive block units of troops? You juat don't. Plus you can play whatever size game you want. I know I don't have 3000 points of Fantasy yet (especially if theres a 15% rare cap, no more 2 steam tanks for me :( ) so I'll stick to 2K no matter what the book says.

chivalrous
03-05-2010, 21:02
None of that sounds like a game I want to play =(

*chuckles* That's exactly what I said when I first heard about 6th edition... I had a 200 strong Witch Elf army, three quarters of which got sold because the 'new' force organisation charts restricted them to special choices

But *waves* I'm still here ;)

Having caught up on the proposals for 8th edition, the only thing I'm concerned about is the rumoured change in attack priority during charges.
Where magic is concerned I'm actually quite pleased that the power dice allocation is regressing somewhat to the 2d6 we used to roll for magic cards.
The rumoured percentage allowance for characters seems to be prohibitively low when you take some characters into consideration (any Lord Level wizard, anyone riding a large monster, Priests/Hags on altars/ cauldrons, etc.)

Wait for the new rules, play the game a few times or ten with an open mind and then make your mind up.

If you don't like the new rules, I'm sure you'll find a like minded clique (I'm still playing 40K 2nd edition !)

vinush
03-05-2010, 21:34
But if the rules are written with 3k in mind, like the current rules are written for 2k, then a lot of the rules will simply not come into play.

In all honesty, how often does the continued combat rule come into effect with 1000 points on the board? By that, I mean when you overrun/pursue into another combat yet to happen that turn and get to fight anew.

I can say that that has happened to me once in 4 years, and I play every week with 1k armies. And the worst part of that once that it's happened to me was that I resolved combats in the wrong order so really didn't feel the benefit of it as I got into the rear of a unit of warhounds who were wiped out by the unit in the front of them...

There are other rules out there that don't often come into play, I'm sure. how often have you used special terrain rules? Terrain types other than difficult and impassable? Occupying buildings? The list goes on.

THE \/ince

willowdark
03-05-2010, 22:49
Special terrain features and buildings get used whenever you choose to use them. It has nothing to do with the size of the battle.

Are you playing your 1k games on a 6x4 or a 4x4 table? I bet if you played the smaller games on a smaller table like the book recommends you'd probably see a lot more pursuits into further combats.

The same is true with larger games. If the rise to 3k standard is a result of more points being spent on each unit, and not necessarily more units than the board might not be effected. But if people opt for 3k just so they can fit in a dragon and buy their units the way the do now the board will start to get cluttered quick.

Horde armies like Skaven and O&G will find it hard to get around on the table at 3k, and so a lot of people might prefer to keep it at 2k.