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Griffery
02-05-2010, 04:48
What are the High Elves main strengths and weakness's? and what armies are they good and bad against in general?

enyoss
02-05-2010, 06:36
Hi,

You'll probably get quite a few responses to this, but here's my take on it :)


Main strengths


Elite infantry: while High Elf elite cavalry (dragon princes) is good, their elite infantry is some of the best in the game. Swordmasters deal out a disgusting amount of damage, white lions deal out high strength attacks and won't rout easily due to stubborn, and phoenix guard, while not being as good on the offence when compared to the other two, are still some of the most durable infantry in the game.

Good leadership: while not being quite as good as dwarves, the overall high leaderhip (including Ld 9 for dragon princes and phoenix guard) coupled with a Ld 10 lord choice makes life a lot easier.

High WS: most enemy rank and file will hit you on a 4+. Your elites will almost certainly be hitting them on a 3+ too, thanks to wholesale WS5.

Great magic: pick whatever lore works best against your opponent, and then have lots of magic items to augment it.

Manouevrability: you'll move faster than most other armies, which makes picking your fights that bit easier.

Dragons: flying, fire breathing, high toughness and terror causing is always going to be a headache for your opponent. I hardly ever use one, but they are effective.



Main weaknesses


Low toughness: T3 all round means you'll be easy to wound. Coupled with medicore saves for all infantry but phoenix guard means you'll be sustaining high casualties should many attacks gets through. This isn't so much of a problem in hand to hand due to the fact that you get to strike first to reduce enemy attacks, but missile casualties can be brutal.

High cost: you definitely get value for money, but if you want bodies on the table you'll be disappointed. Losing a unit, even a relatively poor one, can be a bitter blow. The small number of units you'll be fielding also makes it harder to pull off flank charges and whatnot.

Stigma: there's no denying it, lots of people love to hate High Elves. Prepare yourself for insults about men in dresses and arrogant ponces, and feed the viscious circle by declaring yourself and your army better than your opponent.


That's all I can think of at the minute. Everyone else will no doubt add more though :).

Desert Rain
02-05-2010, 09:15
I think that enyoss did a good summary of the High Elves.
Essentially they are a glass-hammer. They hit really hard, but they also die very easily.

They are also very flexible with lots of different units so they can cope with any situation. However, building a balanced list at 2000 points is pretty difficult, it gets easier at 2250 though which seems to be one of the most common points levels.

Griffery
02-05-2010, 17:35
Thanks guys, how bout what armies High elves are generally good and bad against?

Desert Rain
02-05-2010, 18:03
Daemons, of course, are a hard nut to crack. Dwarves are pretty difficult as well. Dark Elves are a though match up since they are better than us at everything we can do.
Ogres, Empire, Brets, Orcs, Beastmen are probably the easiest.

BigbyWolf
02-05-2010, 19:41
And always watch out for impact hits, ASF does nothing against them. Whilst I agree with Desert Rain that OnG and Beastmen are not the toughest of opponents, they do have access to a lot of reasonably priced chariots and pumpwagons that could seriously ruin your day.

enyoss
02-05-2010, 19:56
Seeing as no one has mentioned them, I'll say that Tomb Kings are usually pretty easy to play against. Although they have a ton of chariots, these are low strength and easy to shoot down, and their characters aren't quite hard enough to make up for the low standard of the troops.

Vampire Counts, on the other hand, can be quite a hard match up. They'll probably outclass you in magic, and the combat effectiveness of their characters usually over-compensates for the poor standard of troops.

Overall, watch out for fear causing troops, as losing one of your units to autobreak can be devastating, more so than for most other armies. You do have access to two anti-fear banners to help with this though.

Desert Rain
02-05-2010, 20:05
Vampire Counts, on the other hand, can be quite a hard match up. They'll probably outclass you in magic, and the combat effectiveness of their characters usually over-compensates for the poor standard of troops.
In my experience Vampire Counts are either really hard to deal with or pretty easy. If you manages to get of a Drain Magic or two in your magic phase they can't raise stuff fast enough to replace the ones that you kill. If they have so many dice that they don't really care about Drain Magic they can be much harder to deal with.

enyoss
02-05-2010, 20:16
In my experience Vampire Counts are either really hard to deal with or pretty easy. If you manages to get of a Drain Magic or two in your magic phase they can't raise stuff fast enough to replace the ones that you kill. If they have so many dice that they don't really care about Drain Magic they can be much harder to deal with.

Well matey, that might be my problem! I'm a magic phase glory boy: quick to forget about Drain Magic if there's even an outside chance I can incinerate something with Fury of Khaine or Flames of the Phoenix :evilgrin:.

SeaSwift
02-05-2010, 20:20
Are Dark Elves REALLY better at everything than us?

...Oh yeah. :(

Shooting = better (they get crossbows, we don't)
Elite Infantry = better, Black Guard with a certain banner...
Normal Infantry = probably NOT actually :) - they are quite a bit cheaper but we have ASF and Martial thingummy-dobby
Heavy Cavalry = equal, Dragon Princes and Cold One Cavalry are pretty even I say (not mentioning Silver Helms...)
Fast Cavalry = better, they get Core Dark Riders, we get pretty bad (in comparison) elite Ellyrian Reavers
Non-flying Monsters = better, they get cheap Hydras, we get zilch
Flyers = better, Core harpies trump Rare Great Eagles (even if Harpy models suck)
Flying Monsters = WE WIN, Star Dragons munch on their flying monsters for breakfast for the relative points
Chariots = WE WIN, this is highly subjective but personally I prefer both Lion Chariots and Tiranoc Chariots to Cold One Chariots (points-wise).
War machines = better, they get 2 in 1 slot, we don't
Skirmishers = better, Shadow Warriors aren't worth it, Shades are far better
Magic = equal(ish), I don't know a lot about this area, but I feel the ground is fairly level
Special Characters = we win, Teclis rules OK!
Fighty normal Characters = dunno, reasonably equal I guess

Griffery
02-05-2010, 21:18
How do High Elves stand against Warriors of Chaos? i cant tell if i will have an easy time dealing with chaos, or if i will get rocked.

Desert Rain
02-05-2010, 21:27
WoC are in the "middle-zone" between those that are easy and those that are hard to beat. Magic in the form of Spirit of the Forge and some redirecting units will help you a lot.

Agoz
02-05-2010, 21:30
Warriors of chaos are a tough prospect for any army, how you do against them will depend on how skillfully you play your army.

EDIT: More specifically, I don't think high elves are inherently weaker or stronger than warriors of chaos, they are more maneuverable than the warriors, however they are far less durable.

minionboy
02-05-2010, 23:13
Sorry, but this is just dumb, I gotta break this apart...


Shooting = better (they get crossbows, we don't)
Their crossbows are less accurate and shorter range. I'd venture to say they're about equal, but HE also has the option to take spearmen with bows.


Elite Infantry = better, Black Guard with a certain banner...
That is very subjective. BG can be better with the right extras: magic banner to get ASF, plus a magic BSB to get an extra attack, plus a 200 point hero to get KB. You're talking 400 points in extras to become better than swordmasters. Now the rest of our decent elite infantry... White Lions are great, Pheonix Guard are nasty as well.


Normal Infantry = probably NOT actually :) - they are quite a bit cheaper but we have ASF and Martial thingummy-dobby
Agreed, they have cheap expendable troops, HE have a wall of attacks at a cost, personal preference really.


Heavy Cavalry = equal, Dragon Princes and Cold One Cavalry are pretty even I say (not mentioning Silver Helms...)
Dragon Princes eat Cold One Cavalry for breakfast. Princes have 2 attacks each, nuff said.


Fast Cavalry = better, they get Core Dark Riders, we get pretty bad (in comparison) elite Ellyrian Reavers
Yes, they have core fast cav, HE have them for special, but they do get extra special choices, which compensates somewhat. If you don't plan on getting in combat, you can swap your spears for bows and only will cost 19 points, while if you want ranged attacks on Dark Riders, you have to pay the premium. In general, I'd say they're about equal.


Non-flying Monsters = better, they get cheap Hydras, we get zilch
Well yeah, how can you make a comparison when there is nothing to compare to.


Flyers = better, Core harpies trump Rare Great Eagles (even if Harpy models suck)
Different creatures for different uses.


Flying Monsters = WE WIN, Star Dragons munch on their flying monsters for breakfast for the relative points
Actually, I like cheap manticores, if HE got griffons on heroes it would be very neat.


Chariots = WE WIN, this is highly subjective but personally I prefer both Lion Chariots and Tiranoc Chariots to Cold One Chariots (points-wise).
I have to agree with you here, Lion Chariots are the bee's knees.


War machines = better, they get 2 in 1 slot, we don't
They get 2 for 1, HE have 4 rare choices, either army can take 4 in a 2k army.


Skirmishers = better, Shadow Warriors aren't worth it, Shades are far better
I will agree with you on this, Shades have BS 5 as well as some weapon upgrades.


Magic = equal(ish), I don't know a lot about this area, but I feel the ground is fairly level
Now that DE lost their +1 to cast, I feel that the +1 to dispel with HE gives them a nice edge.

Mullitron
02-05-2010, 23:20
High elves as an army have already been described well, their an elite army that hits hard but cant take much damage in response. They have units/items/tactics that can cope with most situations but its hard do field all of these in one army. I wouldnt say that dark elves are better with every unit. Yes they have units that can give high elves a run for their money and some of the high elf weaker units are worse than the dark strong elf ones (ie reavers dark riders) but its not like high elves dont have their own heavy hitting asf units. Against warriors of chaos thier pretty even, they can shut down or compete with their strong magic phase and have enough heavy hitters to hit vital combats hard. They have the speed and shooting to control which combats they want to be in and then improve their chances in them. However chaos hit as hard as the elves and can take alot more damage in response, if you make a mistake or your opponet gets lucky you will pay for more than if your opponent does the same.

enyoss
02-05-2010, 23:40
I'm afraid I just gotta break this one right back ;)...



Their crossbows are less accurate and shorter range. I'd venture to say they're about equal, but HE also has the option to take spearmen with bows.


The loss of accuracy is more than accounted for by the fact that they get double the number of shots. The only time this balances out is if they would normally be hitting on a 5+, and now need a 6+ (or 6+ now needing a 7+). In all other cases the extra shot benefit outweighs the accuracy drawback. Add in the fact that they are armour piercing, and it is patently clear that dark elf shooting is the better of the two.

Kayosiv
02-05-2010, 23:45
Their crossbows are less accurate and shorter range. I'd venture to say they're about equal


Just, no.

Repeater Crossbows are not less accurate, they are not forced to double shoot. For that matter, longbows hitting on 5's with 10 arrows or Repeaters hitting on 6's with 20 shots is exactly as accurate. Depending on what you are hitting on with each the numbers go back and forth a bit, but in general the extra shots make up for the -1 to hit from them.

Longbow's have longer range, which is very nice. Dark elf Crossbowman have better armor, armor piercing shots, cheaper champions, are cheaper by 1 point, and can upgrade to get even better armor while still being the same price as longbow-men.

Heimagoblin
02-05-2010, 23:47
Agreed, dark elfs are superior in almost every way and their crossbowmen are certainly better than archers aswell as dark riders being streaks ahead of reaver's. Also harpies are much better than eagles.

minionboy
03-05-2010, 01:17
I'm afraid I just gotta break this one right back ;)...

The loss of accuracy is more than accounted for by the fact that they get double the number of shots. The only time this balances out is if they would normally be hitting on a 5+, and now need a 6+ (or 6+ now needing a 7+). In all other cases the extra shot benefit outweighs the accuracy drawback. Add in the fact that they are armour piercing, and it is patently clear that dark elf shooting is the better of the two.

Okay, your 1 to my 8. :P

The added range though is often underestimated, many people also forget that it means you have a short range of 15", as well as being able to fire the first turn without moving.


Agreed, dark elfs are superior in almost every way and their crossbowmen are certainly better than archers aswell as dark riders being streaks ahead of reaver's. Also harpies are much better than eagles.

The biggest real advantage of dark riders over reavers is being core. That aside, they are always more points than a HE reaver once you give out ranged weapons (understandable as a repeater crossbow > standard bow). I would hardly call that "streaks ahead." Harpies are better at doing different things. You can panic a unit of harpies with shooting, you have to kill the eagle to do the same. The eagle is S/T 4 and WS5, compared to the harpies 3's.

Griffery
03-05-2010, 02:39
Seems like minionboy knows his stuff. Im trusting his opinions.

minionboy
03-05-2010, 04:45
Seems like minionboy knows his stuff. Im trusting his opinions.

Haha, someone with some sense!

Check out this site for some more solid HE advice: http://www.ulthuan.net/

Irish_Icicle
03-05-2010, 07:23
War machines = better, they get 2 in 1 slot, we don't


if your turn to page 54 of the DE army book, under the heading "Firing the Reaper" and then compare that to the entry in the HE book on page 60 under the "Volley" heading, who ever was writting the book literally copy and pasted the repeater bolt thrower rules into the reaper bolt thrower rules. the entry in the DE says repeater, not reaper, several times.

they are literally the same war machine, but for HE, a single bolt thrower takers up a 1/4 of their rare choices at 2k, but for DE it take 1/2 for just one (yes i know it still only takes 1/2 for two).

how are the DE war machines better?

Bladelord
03-05-2010, 09:01
I'd actually say that the High Elven warmachines are better because of our 4 rare slots.

Heimagoblin
03-05-2010, 09:57
However, eagles take up a rare slot. Also, dark riders hurt in the side of units due to decent ws 4(?) str 4 attacks with hatred.

Aside from nitpicking, I can see your points and they seem fairly valid so I ask myself as much as you why are dark elves so much more competative than high elves? MAgic items? Black guard? Hydra's?- is it only a few units?

Heimagoblin
03-05-2010, 10:09
double post- my bad.

Desert Rain
03-05-2010, 10:11
Shooting = better (they get crossbows, we don't)
Agreed, repeater crossbowmen are cheaper, more armoured and have better weapons.




Elite Infantry = better, Black Guard with a certain banner...
Disagree, our elite infantry is better than theirs, except black guard with the ASF banner.



Normal Infantry = probably NOT actually :) - they are quite a bit cheaper but we have ASF and Martial thingummy-dobby
Lets to the math here: 20 HE spears vs. 25 DE speares (about the same pts cost)
HE attacks first and do 2.5 wounds
DE attacs back with 7.5 attacks and do just under 2 wounds.
Results:
HE 4+2.5=6.5
DE: 5+2=7

About equal with a .5 advantage to the DE, and they are 2 points cheaper. So I'd say that DE have better core infantry than us. Plus all there spear-units can have a magical standard, not just one.




Heavy Cavalry = equal, Dragon Princes and Cold One Cavalry are pretty even I say (not mentioning Silver Helms...)
Dragon Prices are better, and more reliable, than Cold One knights so this one is a win for the High Elves.



Fast Cavalry = better, they get Core Dark Riders, we get pretty bad (in comparison) elite Ellyrian Reavers
Agreed, Dark Riders are better than Reavers, mostly because they are core and their ranged attacks are better as well. They are more expensvie though.



Non-flying Monsters = better, they get cheap Hydras, we get zilch
Can't really compare this since there is nothing to compare it against.



Flyers = better, Core harpies trump Rare Great Eagles (even if Harpy models suck)
I'd say about equal. Most HE players take 2 eagles and I've never seen a DE player with more than 2 units of harpies. But the fact that they are core gives DE a slight edge, but I wouldn't call it an advantage.




Flying Monsters = WE WIN, Star Dragons munch on their flying monsters for breakfast for the relative points
Our Star Dragon are better than every flying monster they've got. Other than that theirs are better. The Sun Dragon beats the Manticore though.
We really should have griffons for our heroes in the next edition.



Chariots = WE WIN, this is highly subjective but personally I prefer both Lion Chariots and Tiranoc Chariots to Cold One Chariots (points-wise).
I prefer Tiranoc Chariots over Lion Chariots and Cold One Chariots. But the Cold One chariot is more durable than both of ours though it hits slightly less harder than the Lion Chariot. This one is really, as you said, mostly up to personal preference.



War machines = better, they get 2 in 1 slot, we don't
I'd say we are better. Our crew has ASF which is pretty useful, and we can take more rare configurations than they can because we have 4 slots.



Skirmishers = better, Shadow Warriors aren't worth it, Shades are far better
Agreed, nothing more to say really.



Magic = equal(ish), I don't know a lot about this area, but I feel the ground is fairly levelThey are better at destructive magic and spamming PDs, we are better at defensive and boosting magic. I'd say that we are about equal.



Special Characters = we win, Teclis rules OK!
Agreed, but I've never used (or faced) special characters so I've got no field experience against or with them.



Fighty normal Characters = dunno, reasonably equal I guess
About equal yes, except the immortal dreadlord of course.

SeaSwift
03-05-2010, 10:41
@ Desert Rain, I assume the Spearmen blocks are both in ranks of 5 (for simplicity's sake). Our Spearmen attack in 3 ranks when not counting us charging (lets just assume they are both in a combat and neither managed to do any wounds last turn, and are in their 2nd round of combat).

If both sides have full Command, then Dark Elves can afford 33 spearmen with 2 points spare, while we can afford 20.

We attack first (ASF :D) with 16 attacks (including champion). That's 8 hits, 4 wounds, and 2+2/3 dark elves dead.

With 3(ish) dead, the dark elves attack back with 8 attacks (including champion). That's 4 hits(rerolled to 6 hits), 3 wounds, and so 2 high elves dead.

We kill 1 more (rounding both numbers for simplicity). They outnumber, we both have command, they have 2 more full ranks than us. They win combat by 2.

Ld test on <=6, which we might or might not pass (depending on General's Ld, other modifiers etc.). Statistically, we are more likely to lose it than win it in a vacuum.

We have taken away 18pts worth, them also 18pts. The difference is only the SC.

:D

EDIT: About war machines, we get ASF, but they get (Eternal)Hatred. Besides, neither's really going to help the crew much.

Mullitron
03-05-2010, 10:52
I think this thread has got a little off subject :p

Desert Rain
03-05-2010, 11:09
We have taken away 18pts worth, them also 18pts. The difference is only the SC.
To bad that CR is the only thing that counts. The units costs the same and they win by 2, hence they are the better option if you compare them to each other.
Against other enemies High Elves might come out ahead.

Personally I'd rather have ASF than hatred on my RBT crew since there is a chance that I might do some damage before I die.

Agoz
03-05-2010, 17:56
The fact that dark elves get infinite hatred against high elves gives them somewhat of an edge by itself.

Gaargod
03-05-2010, 19:08
Meh, reroll psychology on dark elves is fairly useful too.

On high elf vs dark elf spearmen - they're both fairly useless in 7th ed. However, i'd actually give it to the high elves, as they're NOT a hammer unit. Hatred only works first turn, excepting high elves, and scary things will do enough damage/be tough enough to bounce attacks. High elves with ASF might just pull something off (against cav, even just 1 wound can turn a loss into a draw. 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 2.5 wounds versus T4 cav makes it possible to drop a knight before they butcher you).
More importantly, hatred has a downside. Always amusing to watch an opponent's line troops be dragged into difficult terrain by skinks/fast cav and never get back into the battle. Always overrun/pursue can end you in some bad positions too.

High elf crew probably have the edge, as ASF *might* drop that harpy/whatever to prevent you from dying horribly. Or at least, do some damage on the way out.

High elves have about 2 competitive builds - 1 centered around the star dragon+prince, one around Teclis. They also very heavily rely on ASF - impact hits/good shooting are nightmares. WoC have neither, but they are stupidly hard, so you stand good odds of watching your units explode if you fail. Chaos knights are bad news (then again... they are for pretty much everything).

mythic77
03-05-2010, 19:10
The fact that dark elves get infinite hatred against high elves gives them somewhat of an edge by itself.

Ehh... when I play Dark elves v High Elves the re-roll psycology is a lot more useful than hatred round two for combat between 2 elves.

Elf on elf combats are almost all done round 1 while re rolling psycology tests on LD 8 or 9 means very rarely does anything panic or fail terror/fear checks.

Minsc
03-05-2010, 20:59
HE Infantry > DE Infantry. (in a HE vs DE matchup that is.)
There is only one Standard of Hag Graef, so while 1 DE infantry unit munches all HE infantry units it comes into combat with, all other HE infantry units munches all DE units they come in combat with.

And I'd take Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen with Shield(11 pts) over naked HE Archers with Longbow (11 pts) any day of the week. 1 extra shot, armourpiercing and 5+/4+ AS is way better than ASF and 6" extra range.


The fact that dark elves get infinite hatred against high elves gives them somewhat of an edge by itself.

Dark Elves already have hatred, giving them 'eternal' hatred vs High Elves while giving High Elves reroll fear/terror/panic is actually a bad deal for the Dark Elves, especially since most combats usually end after one combat phase, making the 'eternal' part moot.
I'd take reroll fear/panic/terror over increased hatred any day of the week as well.

Ever tried to panic/terror/fear a HE army while playing Dark Elves? It's nigh impossible.

ogresrdabest
03-05-2010, 21:07
just to give an example of why always strike first bolt thrower crew is good i got charged by gaargods (alex) terradons or more accurately tyradons as he was proxying nid warriors (don't ask). But anyway i held 4 teradons for 7 rounds of combat before my WL chariot tore them apart.

ASF = lifesaver

King_Pash
03-05-2010, 23:45
Yeah, i've had my ASF bolt thrower crew kill off a unit of Chaos knights before they got to attack! Ok, so it was only one Chaos Knight but it was a damn good roll and put a smile on an otherwise sucky game :)

D'Haran
05-05-2010, 02:01
HE really have the advantage in magic phase over both VC and DE if the army taken is magic heavy. Being able to cast drain magic against VC and being able to take any lore coupled with their abundance of cheap magical items and the +1 to dispel more than balances out any advantages these other 2 armies might get.

Biggest problem with VC's are their bound items, I've never really found the recycle to be a problem when I have a magic heavy list (drain magic). So I just save my DD for the bound spells which they're sure to have and dance macabre should they roll it.

As far as DE, I've rarely seen a DE magic phase stand up to a HE magic phase. Basically DE are more susceptible to HE magic than HE are to DE magic as a whole. Though perhaps the biggest difference is in that DP's are immune to those annoying lore of metal spells while the DE Cold One Knights and even their hard to kill heros don't have a leg to stand on if they get hit with it (reverse ward save amulet not withstanding). Similarly the War Hydra is all too easily taken down by lore of fire, another fun magic exploit for the HE's. Granted DE can take sick amounts of magic resist, but I almost never see it exploited except when there's a Black Guard Death Star.

Kloud13
05-05-2010, 02:46
I completly destroyed a Dark Elf army last night with my High Elves. The Dark Elf General is a friend of mine, and is actually a much better Fantasy player than I am, (Although the shoe is clearly on the other foot in 40K. :)) but, I actually found a nice way to crack the DE army wide open. It's a one-trick pony, and will probably be a lot harder to pull off in a rematch.

The Trick;
I had Teclis with Lore of Shadow
I had 2 units of 6 Dragon Princes, one with BSB, and other had Noble. one DP unit had Banner of Eleryion(spell?) so they can treat difficult terrain as open terrain.

The Plan;
First Turn, unit of DP's advance as far as they can towards target unit. Teclis is in unit of SM's (SM's have Banner of Sorcery just to make sure I dominate Magic Phase) Teclis stays within 12" of DP's, then Teclis Casts Unseen Lurker on DP's using 5 dice. (5 Dice makes an Irresistable Force almost Certain due to Teclis's rule of any double being Irresistable.)

How it played out;

My plan was to use the DP's with Elleryion Banner to swing wide, and 1st turn flank charge a unit of Corsairs. But my opponent had first turn, and Morathi (Spell? The Witch Kings Mommy) had flown up just behind a clump of trees to the front, and right of my DP's with Eleryion Banner. So I instead Marched right through the forrest till I was 1" away from her, and Teclis Irrisistably cast Unseen Lurker, and she was screwed.